Mesh/Archive/2011-04-18

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Transcript for Monday April 18, 2011

[11:03] Charlar Linden OK, Ready to start?
[11:03] Asha Sure thing
[11:03] Ariel Erlanger let's do!
[11:04] Charlar Linden First item: For what reason is bone length data not honored by the importer? It is very likely BVH hacks will be used if this is not supported officially, something that has been stated that the mesh team doesn't wish to see.
[11:04] Racush gogogo
[11:04] Prep Linden So, I've looked into this issue and I'm not opposed to adding code for importing both scale and rotations for bones to the importer -
[11:04] Yellow Alloy yes!
[11:04] Asha Sweet ^^
[11:04] Prep Linden Tiberius just file a jira and we'll prioritize the work.
[11:04] Yellow Alloy /me growls
[11:05] Prep Linden I think it's a good suggestion and should streamline content generation here.
[11:05] Aki Tiberious has issues with JIRA.
[11:05] Aki :P
[11:05] Asha haha
[11:05] Vivienne Daguerre Wonderful :D
[11:05] Yellow Alloy I didn't, up until December 12, 2010
[11:05] Asha I'll file it if you want Tiberious
[11:05] Yellow Alloy please do
[11:06] Asha okie
[11:06] Charlar Linden next?
[11:06] Prep Linden Thanks Asha
[11:06] Charlar Linden It seems that a minimum 0.5 prim physics cost per linkset component now overrides the 0.1 per prim for "perfect" prims used for physics shape. This is a 5x increase in cost. Boxes now cost more than their hull equivalent (0.36). Is this deliberate? [Drongle McMahon]
[11:06] Asha No problem
[11:07] Charlar Linden Our accounting algos are still in flux. We'll let you know when they're in a shape that we can start getting good feedback from you all.
[11:08] Drongle McMahon OK. Count that as advance feedback.
[11:08] Ariel Erlanger is there like a guiding philosphy behind how you want these algorthims to end up? are you trying to match rendering or network costs with existing assets for example?
[11:08] Charlar Linden noted
[11:09] Charlar Linden Ariel, more on that later
[11:09] Ariel Erlanger ok!
[11:10] Nyx Linden we are looking at a number of options and we will ask for your help :)
[11:11] Charlar Linden next?
[11:11] Charlar Linden Please give an update on physics (collision) shapes and costs. Can we have the physics cost in the upload floater p;ease? [Drongle McMahon].
[11:11] Drongle McMahon That is because I have all sorts of unreproducible physics-shape dependent problems on some sims and not others!
[11:11] Drongle McMahon p;ease = please
[11:11] Yellow Alloy yeah. Physics is absolutely insane anymore
[11:12] davep The hold up on getting the cost into the viewer is pulling the relevant code out of the simulator, and that's tied to havok at the moment
[11:12] davep but we've got it pulled out and ready for integration, so that should be in "soon"
[11:12] Nyx Linden as always, any prim cost algorithms aren't final yet, but we are working to get that information in the upload floater :)
[11:12] Drongle McMahon OK. What about rezzing poblems that are very unreproducible? How should I jira such thingd?
[11:13] Yellow Alloy this thing here?
[11:13] Yellow Alloy the pin? 10 prims... all from physics costs
[11:13] davep good question -- making a jira for a bug with no solid repro is always tricky
[11:13] davep but the sim devs are actively working on a number of rez issues
[11:13] Drongle McMahon I took a whole day trying to make reproducible cases.
[11:14] Yellow Alloy I mean, it's GOT pretty much the best LODs I can give it
[11:14] Drongle McMahon Like things that appear in Show physics shape but don't collide?
[11:15] Yellow Alloy but to have 10 of them would cost 100 prims
[11:15] davep it does have a very complex physics shape
[11:16] Yellow Alloy only 3 hulls
[11:16] davep yes, but those hulls have lots of points
[11:16] Yellow Alloy hm
[11:16] davep the number of points in the hull matters
[11:16] davep try uising one of the lower LoDs for a basis for the physics rep
[11:16] Yellow Alloy how can the physics be knocked down lower points, with the same general collision?
[11:17] davep or better yet, model a physics shape in blender that has as few points as possible
[11:17] Yellow Alloy hmm
[11:17] Yellow Alloy I'd have to go into Wings...
[11:17] Yellow Alloy but it MIGHT be doable
[11:17] davep you could also use a cylinder and a sphere for the top two hulls
[11:17] davep (use prims)
[11:18] Yellow Alloy I'm not so sure
[11:18] Yellow Alloy we'll see
[11:18] Drongle McMahon What about using the decomkposer? I had some cases where a simple mesh was xheaper to use without decomposition that with it. (it wa already a set of convex hulls)
[11:18] draconis.neurocam that shape could nearly be 1 prim physics wise with some prim magic
[11:18] Charlar Linden next item?
[11:18] Charlar Linden Update on the state of physics decomposition
[11:19] Drongle McMahon I don't like linking physics prims 'cos they can get unlinked. but it can be MUCH cheaper.
[11:19] davep great use of sample content to drive discussion, BTW
[11:19] Nyx Linden its public! https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/llconvexdecomposition
[11:19] Nyx Linden that's all the code we wrote for decomp, no havok code attached so it won't build
[11:19] Nyx Linden the stub still builds from it if you need a working lib to link in
[11:19] Yellow Alloy who's holding it?
[11:20] Yellow Alloy hmm
[11:20] Yellow Alloy mmk
[11:21] Yellow Alloy I'll see what I can do
[11:21] davep third party viewer devs, use the above repo as the interface for your own decimator (if you want to use qhull or similar)
[11:21] davep er, decomposer, even
[11:22] davep basically, you *must* implement that interface for your viewer to be able to upload meshes
[11:23] Charlar Linden next:
[11:23] Drongle McMahon I thought decomposition was going to be required, but I can still upload my own physics mesh without using it. I guess it uses the triangles. Is that going to stay that way?
[11:24] davep Latif: what "consequences" are you concerned about speciifcally?
[11:24] Yellow Alloy builders kits, I'd think
[11:24] Yellow Alloy I'm also concerned about the loss of the mesh asset
[11:25] davep Drongle: when you click "upload" without a decomposition, the importer automatically makes one for you
[11:25] Yellow Alloy ...people can sell sculpt maps, so why shouldn't we be able to sell mesh assets?
[11:25] davep using the llconvexdecomposition lib
[11:25] Drongle McMahon Can't sell mesh assets inworld. Outside, you lose permissions system.
[11:25] Nyx Linden you can sell mesh objects, or can dell the collada files
[11:25] Nyx Linden *sell
[11:25] Drongle McMahon Bur, Runitai, it doesn't make a convex hull ..... just a collection of them?
[11:26] davep builders kits still work, but it will just be a collection of copy/mod objects instead of a copyable texture
[11:26] Vivienne Daguerre he makes a good point. Importing collada files may be too intimidating to non-mesh builders who want to use mesh kits to make their own creations and show them as creator.
[11:26] Drongle McMahon It's not the same as Analyse with no simpl;ification .... dfifefrent costs.
[11:26] Nyx Linden that's fine, builders kits can still exist as copy and mod objects
[11:27] davep drongle: if you read the code, there's the ability to do both
[11:27] Vivienne Daguerre but they will not show the kit purchaser as the creator of the final item
[11:27] Ariel Erlanger the creator issue is one i've run up against too. not just for athestic reasons, but if you appear as the creator of someone else's finished item, it's confusing for the customer of that item to determine who to ask for help, etc.
[11:27] Yellow Alloy agreed
[11:27] Vivienne Daguerre which could be a pain for the creators of the mesh kits, because if they show as creator they are going to get IMs from customers of the customer, wanting support
[11:27] Ariel Erlanger ideally the builder would link your prims in after they make their own base prim so the linkset is "created" by them but that unfortunately isn't always the case.
[11:27] Nyx Linden you can include it as the non-root prim of a linkset correct?
[11:27] Asha That's very true.
[11:27] davep to be blunt, if you're using a builder kit, you're NOT the creator
[11:28] Ariel Erlanger semantically i agree with you, but let's say you buy a shoe from someone who used a mesh from my kit
[11:28] Vivienne Daguerre Ariel, that is a good work around, will have to instruct people to do that
[11:28] Yellow Alloy now that, davep, I'm going to call bull on
[11:28] Drongle McMahon Anyway, the end user can unlink it.
[11:28] Brookston Holiday Wow Dave. To be blunt, any other company would listen to feedback from the people using there product, ande take more than 30 seconds to tell them why they are wrong.
[11:28] Ann Otoole use a notecard. maybe get the main languages translated.
[11:28] Ariel Erlanger if you need customer support you really want to be talking to the person who built the shoe, not me.
[11:28] Vivienne Daguerre or let us say you buy a house with a mesh window that I made and sold as part of a kit, and you have a problem with the house... I don't want you IMing me for support, but the one who used my kit to make the house.
[11:29] Ranya Palmer i had that happen to me a few times
[11:29] Yellow Alloy there's a skill set that DOES take parts and fashion them into a new whole, and they're every bit a creator as the one who made the parts in the first place
[11:29] Vivienne Daguerre just something to consider...
[11:29] Ann Otoole anyway i don't see it as a major issue. people have been selling clothes templates and delivering psd files for years.
[11:29] Ariel Erlanger it's not like a deal killing issue but if there isn't a cost associated with having the mesh asset then it could be avoided.
[11:30] Asha Why has the mesh asset been removed?
[11:30] Nyx Linden its a valid use case. We need a better mechanism for stating who the end user should contact for support with an item
[11:30] Charlar Linden It seems like the problem is not specifically about mesh, it's about consumers knowing who to contact with issues.
[11:30] davep ok, I'm over reaching on what qualifies as a creator, point taken
[11:30] Charlar Linden Like Nyx said :-)
[11:30] Aki /me would LOVE a 'support contact' property :D
[11:30] Ariel Erlanger well this is just the one example of a problem we've been able to think of on the spot, i don't want to exclude the possibility that there might be other use problems.
[11:30] davep /me attempts to remove foot from mouth.
[11:30] Charlar Linden We'll take that and think about what we can do.
[11:30] Yellow Alloy precisely
[11:30] Ann Otoole well if someone buys a collada file and then mods it why should the original creator be bothered?
[11:31] Asha Question: Was there a reason mesh asset was removed?
[11:31] Ariel Erlanger i would love to sell the collada files but then you get into this whole issue of outside-world sales.
[11:31] Racush maybe some way to better show collaborative builds in that reguard?
[11:31] Ariel Erlanger you need some kind of infrastructure to distribute those files for example.
[11:31] Yellow Alloy yeah
[11:31] davep there are a few reasons why the asset was removed:
[11:31] draconis.neurocam thats a meta issue racush, but yes very much still a problem
[11:31] Yellow Alloy out-of-world sales == no L$ transactions
[11:31] Asha People already distribute PSD files
[11:32] Drongle McMahon To stop illegitimate copying? To stop hiding of creator of stolen objects?
[11:32] davep technically, there are assumptions the simulator needs to make about meshes that makes it impossible to change the mesh asset once the object is rezzed without causing significant simulator stability and performance issues
[11:32] Ann Otoole out of SL sales are going to happen. more and more as time goes on. licensing relative to what grid will become important.
[11:32] Nyx Linden to prevent modification of mesh assets so that we can always identify *who* uploaded the mesh, to assist with IP takedown
[11:32] davep so if you had the asset in inventory, there's no technically "safe" way to apply it to a mesh inworld
[11:32] Asha Ah ok Dave..thanks
[11:33] Brookston Holiday makes sense
[11:33] Yellow Alloy oh
[11:33] Yellow Alloy okay
[11:33] Ann Otoole ah yes id who uploaded. hey and can we get last modded too? like for scripts?
[11:33] Yellow Alloy ...drag-and-drop crashing sims... gotcha
[11:33] Drongle McMahon Sound like good reasons to me.
[11:33] Racush yeah
[11:33] Asha That does sound like a very valis reason not to have them.
[11:33] Asha *valid
[11:33] Nyx Linden so its a side issue, but a completely valid one, that we need to let people know who to contact for support
[11:34] Charlar Linden Excellent - so let's move on
[11:34] Drongle McMahon So we need inworld and marketplace provision for selling Collada files for L$?
[11:34] Yellow Alloy I mean, all it would take to bury someone is to make a shoddy product, have a prim created by them as the root, and put it out there
[11:34] Ariel Erlanger or sell meshed out prims.
[11:35] Brookston Holiday aren't collada files just large notecards?
[11:35] Drongle McMahon How large is a norecard?
[11:35] Ariel Erlanger but if there's a compelling technical reason why using the assets is unstable then it is what it is ^^
[11:35] Yellow Alloy true
[11:35] davep up to 8MB, I think
[11:35] Asha You can sale them the same way people sell PSD files. Nothing new there.
[11:35] Drongle McMahon ok that would do.
[11:35] Brookston Holiday How do people sell PSD files, email?
[11:35] NielArcher notecards are up to 64Kb
[11:36] Charlar Linden next: Can you give us an update on recent progress, what your current priorities are, and what if anything you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:36] Drongle McMahon Oh no. 64k is no good.
[11:36] Nyx Linden I'm still hammering away on render cost modifications
[11:37] Charlar Linden We're getting REALLY close to finishing the merge of the disabled code into trunk on both the viewer and server side
[11:37] Nyx Linden hammering out a few issues with the vs2010 changeover
[11:38] davep we'll be merging bitbucket.org/seraph/mesh-development-vs2010 into hg.secondlife.com/mesh-development
[11:38] Ann Otoole psd files are delivered in ways relative to what resources the creator has. they range from email to mega download sites changing passwords daily to technical systems that use a private website to deliver download tokens.
[11:38] davep then making a fork of mesh-development to do a stability pass, and then merge that into trunk
[11:39] draconis.neurocam trunk being viewer-development?
[11:39] Nyx Linden correct
[11:39] Drongle McMahon That should be fun
[11:39] Nyx Linden so once we merge the 2010 changes down, we'll want some eyes on the result to help with our stability pass
[11:40] Brookston Holiday So, down to weeks/months?
[11:40] Drongle McMahon How about the serverS?
[11:40] davep the *disabled* code to viewer-development
[11:40] davep merge to viewer-development != mesh release
[11:41] davep but it's a vital step in that direction
[11:41] davep a major milestone
[11:41] Yellow Alloy yeah
[11:41] davep cause for celebration and all that
[11:41] Vivienne Daguerre Woo-hoo-hoo!!
[11:41] Asha hehe
[11:41] Nyx Linden one step closer :)
[11:41] Charlar Linden next: Are we there yet? Can you give us any kind of rough estimate of ETA? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[11:41] davep and it means we can get back to making mesh better
[11:41] Charlar Linden No, we are not there yet.
[11:41] Charlar Linden As for an ETA...
[11:42] Nyx Linden When its done.
[11:42] Yellow Alloy ballpark it, please?
[11:42] Bloodsong Termagant well, how many milestones are there?
[11:42] Charlar Linden before the end of a year
[11:42] Vivienne Daguerre :P @ Nyx
[11:42] Vivienne Daguerre before the end of this year, 2011?
[11:42] Brookston Holiday "a" year lol
[11:42] Ann Otoole hahah
[11:43] Charlar Linden Seriously, we know you do really need to know, but we still have a few big items in flux, so we can't say for sure yet.
[11:43] Aki everyone should just move over to Aditi.
[11:43] Aki :P
[11:43] Asha lol
[11:43] Ariel Erlanger maybe we could talk about what those big items are? just sort of like a state of the development roadmap?
[11:43] Charlar Linden We'll make every effort to give you as much information as we have
[11:43] Yellow Alloy a general idea would be helpful, yes
[11:43] Vivienne Daguerre thanks
[11:43] Charlar Linden I get it, and I really want to start giving you a timeframe.
[11:44] Ann Otoole so basically i need to plan on upgrading my gtx 240 to at least gtx 480 by the end of the year. this viewer is overloading the gtx240 unless i turn off most cool stuff.
[11:44] Vivienne Daguerre the longer it takes, the more mesh I will have ready to stock my store up when it happens.
[11:44] Charlar Linden It's just not fair to the engineers
[11:44] Yellow Alloy I know
[11:44] Drongle McMahon Yes. A list of hurdles would be interesting and maybe even useful.
[11:44] Charlar Linden It's also not fair to your all - we'll balance that.
[11:44] Yellow Alloy that's why we're wanting a tentative date... nothing carved in stone, just written in pencil
[11:44] Drongle McMahon Ann. Yes.....my 240 got cooked.
[11:45] Drongle McMahon 440 is much cooler and still low power.
[11:45] Nyx Linden problem is a missed deadline, even written in pencil, is bad
[11:45] Yellow Alloy hell, even ebtter, chalk on the board. Something easily rewritten, so we have an idea how much time we have to develop stuff
[11:45] draconis.neurocam (x60- or up only for me)
[11:45] Yellow Alloy change it on the fly... we don't care
[11:45] Vivienne Daguerre We love mesh and we are excited and eager for it. We appreciate your hard work.
[11:46] Charlar Linden ok, next?
[11:46] Yellow Alloy like we've said, we're looking for a GENERAL timeline
[11:46] Yellow Alloy uhh...
[11:46] Ariel Erlanger i don't even really need a timeframe, but i would like to know what those big obstacles are.
[11:46] Ann Otoole so is any consideration being applied to the rapid decline of personal computers? even best buy is scaling back support for personal computers and concentrating on tablets and iphones around here. Future not looking real bright for personal computers at the moment.
[11:46] Yellow Alloy since the agenda has kinda run out... got a kinda stupid question
[11:47] Charlar Linden Yellow - I will get that out to you all as soon as I can.
[11:47] Charlar Linden We still have one
[11:47] Nyx Linden we have good statistics on what hardware people are actually using to log on to SL with, and we want to make sure we can run on that hardware
[11:47] Charlar Linden What is the thinking right now about L$ upload cost of meshes? [Brookston Holiday]
[11:47] Charlar Linden We're thinking it'd be good
[11:47] Asha Good question
[11:48] Yellow Alloy oh
[11:48] Brookston Holiday Like 10L$ per prim equivalient, or 1L$ or 100L$???
[11:48] Drongle McMahon But Nyx, surely if they can;t log on, you can't see them?
[11:48] And all i got was this lousy DN 10K
[11:48] Brookston Holiday 10K, fair-nuff
[11:48] And all i got was this lousy DN :P
[11:49] Brookston Holiday Unrelated:(ANyone else having trouble cam-ing close to Racush's kick ass avatar? It's like when I alt-click it focuses on the ground around instead.)
[11:49] Drongle McMahon You can see an upload cost in the Develop|Show Info|Show upload Cost .... iof you bwant to be frightened.
[11:49] Racush try my nametag
[11:50] Brookston Holiday no dice
[11:50] Yellow Alloy and whent he agenda does actually run dry, I'd like to ask my kinda stupid, more LDPW-type (but mesh-related) question...
[11:50] Asha The nametag worked
[11:51] Ann Otoole yea i cammed Racush. Racush proves Cthulu is feasible. But the lack of tail and tentacle rigging is a bummer.
[11:51] Yellow Alloy LOL!
[11:51] Brookston Holiday hmmm.. the benches are 180L$ wow
[11:51] Racush XD
[11:51] davep *probably* not accurate
[11:51] Charlar Linden We do want to encourage uploads; we will generally use it to offset server costs and present an obstacle to 'giefer' type mass uploading
[11:52] davep I think the debug display just takes the streaming cost and multiplies by 10
[11:52] davep (i.e. no basis in reality)
[11:52] Yellow Alloy good
[11:52] Charlar Linden The numbers will be at least somewhat dependant on complexity
[11:52] Drongle McMahon What server costs? You need new servers for mesh?
[11:52] And all i got was this lousy DN hiya dan
[11:52] davep server costs == storage and streaming
[11:52] Drongle McMahon ok
[11:53] Brookston Holiday wait, what does teir ==???
[11:53] Brookston Holiday tier
[11:53] Nyx Linden storing and streaming 500k doesn't cost much, but doing it a million times adds up :)
[11:54] davep tier pays for the actual sim host and non-asset associated bandwidth and services
[11:54] davep (take my words here with a grain of salt)
[11:54] Brookston Holiday IC
[11:54] Drongle McMahon And there was me thinking it payed your salaries!
[11:54] Latif Khalifa tier overpays 20x the cost of server ;) it's mostly paying for linden salaries ::)
[11:55] Nyx Linden and asset hosting costs are larger than you'd think :)
[11:55] Ann Otoole hopefully some vietnamese bbq and beer too
[11:55] Ariel Erlanger mesh developer salaries!
[11:55] Nyx Linden there's a lot of content we need to store that you guys have created :)
[11:55] Yellow Alloy /me smiles
[11:55] draconis.neurocam i would think the bandwidth would be the most costly
[11:56] Yellow Alloy and thankfully, Emerald/Phoenix seems to have saved more... reducing failed uploads
[11:56] Ann Otoole and with loss of net neutrality we get to be charged for recieving the streams. double charging gambit.
[11:56] Yellow Alloy (unless temporary uploads still cost you guys space)
[11:57] Nyx Linden but yeah, long story short we don't have hard numbers on what upload fees will be
[11:57] Yellow Alloy mmk
[11:57] Drongle McMahon Oh yes. Uploads that work but can't rez .... we need a money-back = delete all copies thingy.
[11:57] Brookston Holiday soooo.... somewhere between 1 and 10L$/prim?
[11:57] Yellow Alloy hopefully they'll be reasonable
[11:57] Nyx Linden unknown yet Brookston
[11:57] Ariel Erlanger is it safe to assume they'll be tied to object complexity?
[11:57] Brookston Holiday kk
[11:57] Nyx Linden complexity will be a factor
[11:57] Nyx Linden that is safe to assume
[11:58] Nyx Linden (we do want to encourage efficient building :) )
[11:58] Drongle McMahon Between 0 and 1000000/prim, Brookstone.
[11:58] Ariel Erlanger ^^
[11:58] Brookston Holiday You're a good estimator
[11:58] Nyx Linden and hopefully we will block any uploads that won't rez.
[11:59] Nyx Linden (keeping in mind beta assets we have the right to break in the meantime :) )
[11:59] Drongle McMahon I guess we will still be able to test on Aditi?
[11:59] Eleanora Newell why don't you give us a means to store our things offworld, would dramatically cut down on what you store for us here inworld?
[11:59] Nyx Linden Drongle - of course
[11:59] Brookston Holiday I wonder if it will be a significant new L$ "sink" or just replace sculpty uploads...
[12:00] Nyx Linden elanora - not a bad idea, one that's come up before, but easier said than done :)
[12:00] Ann Otoole if they don't "encourage efficient models" then a lot of vid cards will likely fry making many very upset.
[12:00] Vivienne Daguerre I think $1L per prim equivalent would be fair
[12:00] davep Eleanora: a few reasons, security and reliability for one -- how would you like it if anyone inworld could get your IP just by wearing a texture hosted on their server?
[12:00] Brookston Holiday free to anyone who made a jira during beta
[12:00] Eleanora Newell understood, nyx, but with the cost of storage, one worth pursuing
[12:00] Asha Sculpties are already 10L per prim though.
[12:01] Yellow Alloy Vivienne: Streaming, Physics, or both?
[12:01] Vivienne Daguerre final result, combination of all the above
[12:01] Ann Otoole and some things look perfectly fine with sculpties. you don't have to mesh everything.
[12:01] Charlar Linden Hey guys, we're out of time, and I've got to get to another meeting. Thanks a bunch for all the good feedback.
[12:01] Yellow Alloy mmk
[12:01] Charlar Linden bye
[12:01] Ariel Erlanger thanks for hosting!
[12:02] Yellow Alloy darn... ah well
[12:02] Vivienne Daguerre if you build a house with 100 prims, that is pretty efficient... would not be right to charge 1000 L to upload it
[12:02] Asha Adios Lindens
[12:02] davep thanks for the discussion!
[12:02] Nyx Linden thanks for coming everyone!
[12:02] Brookston Holiday Thanks Lindens
[12:02] Charlar Linden see you next week.
[12:02] Ariel Erlanger it's a date
[12:02] Eleanora Newell if it's something we make, so that it would be similar to the sculpts we upload, not things we buy off others, that would be possible, wouldn't it? most of us with large inventories have them because we are builders