Mesh/Archive/2012-05-21

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Agenda

  1. I'm working with various copies of the SL avatar for import to Blender to aid in rigged mesh building. I have noticed all of them have duplicate vertices. Even the avatar the Lab provides for users to make clothes from. Is there any way to know if the avatar installed in the viewer has duplicate vertices? And won't that affect the Mesh Deformer Karl is building? Nalates Urriah 13:13, 16 May 2012 (PDT)
  2. I was a participant in the Mesh Beta, and I have passed the IP Tutorial for the main grid. However, I can no longer upload mesh on the beta grid, as the upload window states that I am not authorized. The link there to "Find out how" to get authorized, and the beta grid tutorial link listed on the Mesh Wiki Page https://secondlife.aditi.lindenlab.com/my/account/mesh-landing.php both seem to encounter an unspecified server error. "An error has occurred. Further information is available in the server log." Second life support seems unwilling or unable to address Beta Grid technical issues, and I don't know who to contact to get this resolved. I just want to be able to upload meshes on the beta grid, as the wiki page suggests, to save money during the prototyping phase. Winter Ventura 03:20, 21 May 2012 (PDT)
  3. How many avatars are using a viewer with mesh support? Would it already make sense to use meshed objects for educational regions? Ravelli Ormstein 10:33, 21 May 2012 (PDT)
  4. When i build on mesh i have to upload my files several times, and each time i have to fill out the entire upload form, even if i wanna change only one parameter. That costs a lot of time and can cause mistakes. Saving these settings into a local xml-file would be handy. What that be possible? Ravelli Ormstein 10:33, 21 May 2012 (PDT)
  5. The joint of the mesh road is bumpy. Because the road is longer than 64 m, it cannot be made with one Mesh. Therefore, it certainly has the joint. There is the triangle of perpendicular physics Shape in the joint. When the car passes along the joint of the road, the car will be jumped slightly. When Avatar passes along the joint of the road, conflict sound will occur. These occur accidentally. So I would like to learn how to remove the triangles of physics Shape in the joint of the road. [Yuzuru Jewell] 11:25, 22 May 2012 (SLT)
  6. When the object was moved, was the bug as which physics Shape is shown smaller fixed? I saw it at 19 May. [Yuzuru Jewell] 12:01, 22 May 2012 (SLT)
  7. Does anyone think it matters if convex hull physics weights are often two or more times the weight predicted by the calculation documented in the wiki? (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7883)Drongle McMahon

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday May 21, 2012

[12:03] Nyx Linden greetings all
[12:03] Aargle Zymurgy ah, and there's our host!
[12:03] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Nyx.
[12:03] Nal (nalates.urriah) Hi
[12:03] Aargle Zymurgy hi Nyx
[12:03] Cooper Macbeth And greetings Nyx
[12:03] Ravelli Ormstein Hello Nyx
[12:03] Cindi (winter.ventura) Hello
[12:03] Nyx Linden agenda is here for those who would like to add topics: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03] DrFran Babcock welcome to SL, Nyx
[12:03] Cindi (winter.ventura) heh, same page different URL
[12:03] Aargle Zymurgy I'd add scripting to the topics, but everyone would run away
[12:04] Nyx Linden looks like we have a decent number of topics this week, so let's get right to it!
[12:04] Nyx Linden first topic: "I'm working with various copies of the SL avatar for import to Blender to aid in rigged mesh building. I have noticed all of them have duplicate vertices. Even the avatar the Lab provides for users to make clothes from. Is there any way to know if the avatar installed in the viewer has duplicate vertices? And won't that affect the Mesh Deformer Karl is building? Nalates Urriah 13:13, 16 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:04] Rusalka Writer I crashed.
[12:05] Nyx Linden it wouldn't be shocking if there were some duplicate vertices, or some duplicated vertices with different properties - are there any regions of the avatar in particular where the duplication is occurring?
[12:06] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) The duplicates she is talking about are along the seams of the UV islands.
[12:06] Rusalka Writer Right.
[12:06] Nal (nalates.urriah) There are 175 in the head, 342 in the torso, and 135 in the lower body. I haven't started to look ofr where they are in the parts.
[12:07] Nyx Linden if its along UV boundaries, then that wouldn't be surprising, as the "vertices" will have to be duplicated in the engine at its lowest level to provide the different UV coodrinates
[12:07] Rusalka Writer The avatar skin is cut for mapping— the seams are all duplicates.
[12:07] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) They aren't in problematic places, and their weights are consistent.
[12:08] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me waves to Jennifur ^^
[12:08] Jennifur Vultee hi Ash
[12:08] Cindi (winter.ventura) could it be that like sculpts, those vertices were placed there by the original artist to halp make sure that the LOD degradation didn't pull the mesh segments apart? (she said, guessing wildly)
[12:08] Drongle McMahon If they are on seams, they get duplicayed on upload if they sren't already.
[12:09] Nyx Linden I wouldn't think they would be particularly problematic for the deformer, but I have not reviewed the implementation or the theory behind qarl's approach to say one way or the other. If you're concerned, I'd recommend asking Qarl to make sure that he knows of them
[12:09] Nal (nalates.urriah) I can do that.
[12:10] Nyx Linden at the engine level, each "vertex" has a set of properties, including UV coordinates, color, etc. If one point in space is the edge of two textures, then it needs to be represented twice, resulting in "duplicate" vertices, so duplication along UV boundaries is expected
[12:11] Nyx Linden the fact that you still see the duplication at higher levels (looking at blender models) is notable, but shouldn't be problematic
[12:11] Nyx Linden does that make sense?
[12:12] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes it does.
[12:12] Nal (nalates.urriah) It does. I'm going to have to talk with Qarl and Gaia to see how the deformer and the Bone copy wirk with those duplciates.
[12:12] Nyx Linden I'd be surprised if it was an issue, but doesn't hurt to ask :)
[12:12] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) what the heck
[12:12] Nyx Linden next topic: "I was a participant in the Mesh Beta, and I have passed the IP Tutorial for the main grid. However, I can no longer upload mesh on the beta grid, as the upload window states that I am not authorized. The link there to "Find out how" to get authorized, and the beta grid tutorial link listed on the Mesh Wiki Page https://secondlife.aditi.lindenlab.com/my/account/mesh-landing.php both seem to encounter an unspecified server error. "An error has occurred. Further information is available in the server log." Second life support seems unwilling or unable to address Beta Grid technical issues, and I don't know who to contact to get this resolved. I just want to be able to upload meshes on the beta grid, as the wiki page suggests, to save money during the prototyping phase. Winter Ventura 03:20, 21 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:12] Drongle McMahon Same thing with sharp shaded edges, that get duplicated with different normals, but I don't suppose the avatar has any of those?
[12:12] Jennifur Vultee awww
[12:13] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Sorry about that Jennifur
[12:13] Ravelli Ormstein Nyx, someone else had the same issue yesterday and today, he asked for help in the group chat
[12:13] Jennifur Vultee I wasn't complaining
[12:13] Cindi (winter.ventura) That may have also been me, I've been going bonkers on that issue
[12:14] Nal (nalates.urriah) SVC-7727 has been around a little while
[12:14] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7727
[12:14] Nal (nalates.urriah) It has a no rez issue included
[12:15] Nyx Linden It appears to work on my account, but its entirely possible its account-specific. If anyone can reproduce this specifically, could you start a JIRA and we'll check your accounts? I'll also ask our internal teams to verify that the right services are running and are publicly accessible
[12:15] Cindi (winter.ventura) I have personally checked in firefox and in IE.. the problem is with the login ID server
[12:16] Nal (nalates.urriah) Oskar and Maestro were looking at it. Seems Lindens can't repo it. But several of us have been stuck with it for several weeks.
[12:16] Cindi (winter.ventura) And now...
[12:16] Cindi (winter.ventura) it seems to be working
[12:16] Cindi (winter.ventura) WHEE!
[12:16] Nal (nalates.urriah) ...I'll try again later today.
[12:16] Cindi (winter.ventura) And then it fails
[12:16] Cindi (winter.ventura) An error has occurred. Further information is available in the server log.
[12:17] Cindi (winter.ventura) https://id.aditi.lindenlab.com/openid/openidserver
[12:17] Nyx Linden if it continues to be a problem, please file a SVC jira with your account name and time of failure. Knowing that its the login ID server for aditi should help us hunt it down
[12:17] Nal (nalates.urriah) I can't rez new stuff, I can rez old stuff. And inventory forgets anything I save... So, I work PF in AGNI snadboxes
[12:17] Cindi (winter.ventura) it continues to be a problem.. so I will do so.
[12:18] Drongle McMahon I just don't work.
[12:18] Cindi (winter.ventura) Nyx.. which issue are you referring to?
[12:18] Rusalka Writer The technical term.
[12:18] Nyx Linden thanks in advance for getting us the specific details, I definitely want to make sure we hunt this one down
[12:19] Cindi (winter.ventura) Nal's issue isn't the same as mine
[12:19] Nyx Linden I'm referring to the login ID issue with the mesh verification that is mentioned in the current topic
[12:19] Drongle McMahon Do Linden's have accounts that the system doesn't know are Lindens, for checking this sort of thing?
[12:20] Nyx Linden the inventory permanence issue should already have an issue filed for it, and any additional information on that is appreciated as well.
[12:20] Cindi (winter.ventura) okay yes thank you.. I've had it fail on me again just after entering my login credentials
[12:20] Nyx Linden yes, we do have non-linden accounts to test on as well
[12:20] Nyx Linden and if necessary can test from outside our network if that's what it takes to reproduce an issue.
[12:21] Nyx Linden thanks for the reports, hopefully with enough information we can get these issues straightened out soon
[12:22] Nyx Linden next topic: "How many avatars are using a viewer with mesh support? Would it already make sense to use meshed objects for educational regions? Ravelli Ormstein 10:33, 21 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) Whirly saw and additional problem in 7727 and today I saw a few people experiencing the problem he saw over here in AGNI...
[12:22] Ravelli Ormstein yes, that topic came up today...
[12:22] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) the lasts stats we got, theres about 89% of the logins on a mesh capible viewer
[12:22] Kaine Lowenstark Essentially the non mesh supporting options are vanishing correct?
[12:23] Ravelli Ormstein ah
[12:23] Nyx Linden most of the login sessions are on viewers that should support mesh download and rendering. I don't have the latest stats, but I would say that it makes sense.
[12:23] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) the stats im using are a week old
[12:23] Ravelli Ormstein we just discuss if we should offer mesh objects at a place for new residents, or wait a while
[12:23] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 89% is pretty good.
[12:24] Nal (nalates.urriah) Well new residents will have a new viewer...
[12:24] Motor Loon I think it helped alot the Singularity viewer finally got mesh
[12:24] Nyx Linden its a judgement call that experience creators will have to make for themselves, but the numbers are looking pretty good.
[12:24] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) thats of the viewers that are on the TPVD and the LL client, doesnt count the non listed viewers
[12:25] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) singularity is a minority, pheonix helped signifiagly more
[12:25] Motor Loon yes, but after Phoenix got mesh -- most people I met who couldn't see mesh was using singulatiry
[12:25] Kaine Lowenstark Oh well, I only care about LL's viewer and it got the shiny new features first ^_^
[12:25] Nyx Linden also keep in mind that linden realms that we shipped back in December required mesh support. We're not blocking people unable to load mesh content, but there aren't a ton of them at this point.
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) People using TPV tend to be power users... or so I think.
[12:26] Ravelli Ormstein well, if someone still use a non-mesh viewer made his own decision on it, to not need mesh :-)
[12:26] Nal (nalates.urriah) they should understand the mesh render prob
[12:27] Ravelli Ormstein ok, 89% is a lot, i guessed it would be something like that
[12:27] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) some peole cant run on a mesh capible viewer because of their PC
[12:27] Ravelli Ormstein yep
[12:27] Nyx Linden that's not an official statistic, but the numbers are pretty high :)
[12:27] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) i guess that depends on how you define official :P
[12:28] Ravelli Ormstein yes, thank you all for your feedback on this
[12:28] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) mesh adoption is still slowly increasing, although at less than 1% increase per week now
[12:28] Nyx Linden just wanted to clarify that number did not come from Linden Lab's statistics, is all :)
[12:28] Motor Loon Another good thing is the people who DONT see mesh now - aren't in doubt when they encounter mesh anymore and most will quickly relog on a mesh viewer if they really wants to see what they are "looking at"... atleast thats my experience
[12:28] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) its from the stats LL gives to TPVs
[12:28] Ravelli Ormstein ok Nyx
[12:29] Nyx Linden next topic: "When i build on mesh i have to upload my files several times, and each time i have to fill out the entire upload form, even if i wanna change only one parameter. That costs a lot of time and can cause mistakes. Saving these settings into a local xml-file would be handy. What that be possible? Ravelli Ormstein 10:33, 21 May 2012 (PDT)"
[12:29] Ravelli Ormstein yes, yesterday i made me nervous to fill out the form again and again
[12:29] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) possible, yes
[12:29] Motor Loon lol.. some of us disabled that feature because it was annoying °͜°
[12:29] Drongle McMahon uh?
[12:30] Nal (nalates.urriah) I thought slm files did that...
[12:30] Nyx Linden we already have such a feature actually, if you load the same file multiple times it should load with the previous set of parameters, though not everyone enables the feature
[12:30] Nyx Linden exactly, we store the data as a .slm file in the same directory as you loaded the collada file
[12:30] Drongle McMahon For me it cuased more problems than it was worth.
[12:30] Ravelli Ormstein oh
[12:30] Motor Loon Debug settings / MeshimportuseSLM
[12:30] Nyx Linden it isn't perfect, but it may be a good starting point.
[12:31] Kaine Lowenstark I think mine does it by default, I have to refresh several times for it to pick up new changes
[12:31] Ravelli Ormstein since i save each new version in a new file name... i never noticed that :-) but i have seen the slm-files
[12:31] Drongle McMahon When it's turned on, you can override with the reset button if you get problems.
[12:31] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) It comes in handy when you test products on the beta grid before uploading finals on main. I just make sure to rest the form before working on a new version of an old file. No problems then.
[12:31] Drongle McMahon Ah yes ... it works on the file name.
[12:32] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *reset
[12:32] Ravelli Ormstein i have to check that out, will make it easier
[12:32] Nyx Linden indeed, it bases itself on the file name, if you change the file name it will not pick up the old settings files. If it loads something incorrectly, the reset button should get you back to the default values
[12:33] Ravelli Ormstein ok, so my question is answered :-) many thanks!
[12:33] Nyx Linden next topic: "The joint of the mesh road is bumpy. Because the road is longer than 64 m, it cannot be made with one Mesh. Therefore, it certainly has the joint. There is the triangle of perpendicular physics Shape in the joint. When the car passes along the joint of the road, the car will be jumped slightly. When Avatar passes along the joint of the road, conflict sound will occur. These occur accidentally. So I would like to learn how to remove the triangles of physics Shape in the joint of the road. [Yuzuru Jewell] 11:25, 22 May 2012 (SLT)"
[12:33] Cooper Macbeth Thank you, Nyx. Very useful information.
[12:34] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) It is my topic.. You can check it the road over there
[12:34] Motor Loon I guess Yuz means "seam" more than "joint" here eh
[12:35] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Yes seam. Thank you Motor.
[12:35] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) It is Janaese English, sorry.
[12:36] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:36] Nyx Linden aha good question, anyone have any tips on avoiding the collision? Is the issue just the perpendicular surface of the road?
[12:36] Motor Loon are you using a custom physics shape for the road piece?
[12:37] Nyx Linden would it be possible to taper the collision volume near the seam, or is just the disconnect enough to trigger the collision sound?
[12:37] Motor Loon Actually I think that might make it worse
[12:37] Nyx Linden /me notes he is not a physics expert :)
[12:37] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I think it doesn't use custom physics shape. But I can't make a custom shape which have hole.
[12:38] Motor Loon why should it have a hole?
[12:38] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) To delete vertical traiagle of physics shape.
[12:39] Kaine Lowenstark I can never get my phyics boxes to preform correctly, but could you not make a lip extention of the roads bounding box on one side, and use that to extend past the collission area?
[12:39] Kaine Lowenstark similar to putting a prim over the corner to smooth the transitions between surfaces
[12:39] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) While the race, cars jumping..
[12:39] Nyx Linden I'd definitely be interested to see if overlapping physics shapes with proper alignment would help
[12:40] Motor Loon Try contacting Talin Sands perhaps... I know he has made mesh road pieces with great success
[12:40] Drongle McMahon Why not just make a physics mesh without the vertical bits?
[12:40] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) it issmooth but jumping to corision of the viertical traiangle of physics shape.
[12:41] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Drongle, I want to know to make it.
[12:41] Nyx Linden plus there are two directions you could try to taper - you could taper the lower "ground" edge up to the road's surface to avoid the vertical edge, or you could taper down towards the ground to have a small divot in between road pieces that could decrease the angle of the collision
[12:42] Drongle McMahon Just a flat plane? Or two finely angled so the alignment can be less demanding?
[12:42] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Nyx, thank you, I will try it.
[12:43] Nyx Linden just a couple possibilities to try, I'm not sure what will work best - I'll have to ask around to the lindens who know physics better than I :)
[12:43] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Does the seam overlap?
[12:44] Drongle McMahon Be careful not to use physiocs shape type convex hull. There is a bug that makes the default hull smaller than the bounding box. That will give you a gap to fall into.
[12:44] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Drongle, I met it, so I check it.
[12:45] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) More gap.
[12:45] Nyx Linden convex hull shouldn't shrink smaller than bounding box for a box shaped mesh, but its worth double checking your settings
[12:45] Drongle McMahon It does, Nyx, see: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28416
[12:45] JIRA-helper [#VWR-28416] Mesh: Default convex hull is smaller than it should be. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:45] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Now it was not Convex Hull but Prim.
[12:46] Nyx Linden looks like a bug to me :)
[12:46] Nyx Linden anyways, next topic: "When the object was moved, was the bug as which physics Shape is shown smaller fixed? I saw it at 19 May. [Yuzuru Jewell] 12:01, 22 May 2012 (SLT)"
[12:46] Nyx Linden is that what you're referring to Yuzuru?
[12:46] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Today I can't see it.
[12:47] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I saw it Nagasaki City sim.
[12:47] Nyx Linden or are you talking about the fact that the shape of a dynamic object switches to convex hull?
[12:48] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) It was not convex hull.
[12:48] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) But when I move it. Physics Shape was smoller than old one.
[12:49] Nyx Linden yes, when an object moves, it switches to a simpler physics shape.
[12:49] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) But firesorm viewer see it same size.
[12:50] Nyx Linden if it switches to convex hull while moving, and the convex hull is smaller than it should be (as drongle reports), that may explain the behavior
[12:50] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Is it a viewer problem?
[12:51] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) or Server problem?
[12:51] Motor Loon collissions are serverside
[12:51] Drongle McMahon The small CH is a server problem, as it affects the actual physics.
[12:52] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) How should I do for restoring to the original size?
[12:52] Drongle McMahon The viewer shows the smaller CH as it is on the server.
[12:53] Nyx Linden I believe the answer is we need to fix VWR-28416
[12:53] Gramma Fiddlesticks /me grins
[12:53] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) OK I hope to
[12:54] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you, Drangle and Nyx.
[12:54] Nyx Linden 5 minutes left, any more topics?
[12:54] Cindi (winter.ventura) Per your request Nyx, agenda issue #2 (can't log in to beta-grid mesh IP tutorial) has been added to the jira as SVC-7935.
[12:54] JIRA-helper http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7935
[12:54] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Drongle sorry.
[12:55] Drongle McMahon I added one Nyx.
[12:55] Drongle McMahon You might not want to answer it.
[12:55] Nyx Linden next topic: "Does anyone think it matters if convex hull physics weights are often two or more times the weight predicted by the calculation documented in the wiki? (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7883)Drongle McMahon"
[12:55] JIRA-helper [#SVC-7883] Discrepancy between actual convex hull physics weights and documented calculation. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:56] Hel Ishtari :)
[12:56] Nyx Linden I will poke around internally to try to get the documentation looked at again
[12:57] Drongle McMahon I am certain it is not expected behaviour, for five reasons, but if nobody cares, may be I shouldn't.
[12:57] Motor Loon Nobody actually thought you'd do the math yourself ! lol
[12:58] Nyx Linden it would not surprise me if the documentation is out of date, I'll ask around to try to get it updated.
[12:59] Drongle McMahon My probnlem is that I was telling people the wiki formula and then found it was wrong. So I want to make a correction, but I need a definitive answer for that.
[12:59] Motor Loon its going to need updating anyway when PF hits the full grid
[12:59] Drongle McMahon Nyx, I'll send you a detailed description of the problem I made, that you can show to Falcon, maybe.
[12:59] Ravelli Ormstein i have to leave. thank you all and good bye!
[13:00] Nyx Linden thanks :)
[13:00] Nal (nalates.urriah) bye Rav
[13:00] Nyx Linden thanks all for coming out this week, I'll be back next week - same time same location
[13:00] Motor Loon have fun...
[13:00] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx Nyx
[13:00] Gramma Fiddlesticks thanks Nyx
[13:00] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you Nyx.
[13:00] Drongle McMahon Perfectly timed meeting!
[13:00] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) have a good week, nyx
[13:00] Cindi (winter.ventura) ty
[13:00] Rusalka Writer Mahalo!