Mesh/Archive/2012-06-25

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Agenda

  1. Can Linden provide any feedback/knowledge concerning a method of mesh clothing upload which circumvents the use of the existing mesh clothing deformer yet provides similar (if not the same) functionality? For background, a known full-perm clothing merchant recently made available an article of clothing which conforms to changes in av slider values. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POwQE10sxGg&feature=player_embedded )They claim the item does not use Qarl's mesh clothing deformer but decline to discuss the method being used behind the object creation. Speculation is that a hack is being done to .dae files in order to get this to work. If this is the case, is this a method of content creation which designers should or should not make use of at this time? Aki Shichiroji
  2. Any mesh item must provide 21 dedicated bone weight groups (see below), otherwise the SL Importer does not accept the item. However these weight groups can be empty. What is the reason for having this constraint? If this constraint does not exist, then where can i find an example .dae file which shows how to import a mesh with less than the following list of bone weight groups ?
    • mHead, mNeck, mCollarRight, mCollarLeft, mShoulderRight, mShoulderLeft
    • mElbowRight, mElbowLeft, mWristRight, mWristLeft, mChest, mTorso
    • mPelvis, mHipRight, mHipLeft, mKneeRight, mKneeLeft
    • mAnkleRight, mAnkleLeft, mFootRight, mFootLeft
    • Gaia Clary 01:48, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  3. For Mesh items with textures the SL Importer sometimes does not recognize the textures. In particular when a mesh contains weights and "weights" is enabled in the previewer, then the textures disappear instantly in the preview window and they do not get uploaded. Is this on purpose or is this a bug ? If this is not a bug but a wrong collada input, then where can i find an example .dae that allows to import textures along with a rigged mesh. Gaia Clary 01:33, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
  4. I found that the SL Importer recognizes a rigged mesh by checking for a <controller> node in the collada file. It does not care about the scene description in that case. This implies that if we provide a full scene description that does no harm to the import. Is this correct ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday June 25, 2012

[12:01] Nyx Linden looks like we got popular :)
[12:01] Siddean Munro Hi Nyx :)
[12:01] SySy Chapman just a bit
[12:01] Siddean Munro and hi again Oz!
[12:01] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) A teeny bit
[12:01] Tyr Rozenblum howdy nyx
[12:01] ZlatanBLK Djannovic Hi
[12:01] Tyr Rozenblum howdy oz
[12:01] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) Hey Nyx and Oz!
[12:02] RedPoly Inventor hello Oz
[12:02] SySy Chapman "this is my first time meeting lindens and all i see is grey avatars". hmpf. LMOA
[12:02] Siddean Munro I don't dare move my camera cos I'll crash
[12:02] sachi Vixen Hey Nyx, we all came for your bear
[12:02] Cracked Mirror is nyx giving free hugs after the meeting
[12:02] Cracked Mirror cause that's why we're all here obv
[12:02] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) I thought sachi said beer at first @_@
[12:03] Tyr Rozenblum nyx brings fantastic beer
[12:03] Nyx Linden ok if everyone doesn't mind shifting towards the water, that way we can get some more people on the other side of the region boundary
[12:03] RedPoly Inventor okayy
[12:03] Siddean Munro eek ok
[12:03] Second Life Can't reposition -- permission denied
[12:03] SySy Chapman ohhhh slowly. slooooowly
[12:03] Tyr Rozenblum going to just climb on someones back
[12:03] ZlatanBLK Djannovic lol
[12:04] RedPoly Inventor shouts: on the platform or near the water ?
[12:04] Damien (damien.fate) Well that was fun
[12:04] moo Money clearly this is a cleverly devised way to get some of us to crash
[12:04] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) this is the creepiest thing I've seen in SL
[12:04] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) am not moving i think i'm crashing
[12:04] SySy Chapman lmfao
[12:04] Siddean Munro whew made it
[12:04] Alexxis DeCuir i cant see the platform
[12:04] Alexxis DeCuir just everyone floating on the water
[12:04] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) how do we see prims again
[12:05] Alexxis DeCuir control shift alt 9
[12:05] DrFran Babcock sorry if I crushed anyoe
[12:05] Alexxis DeCuir same combo :D
[12:05] ZlatanBLK Djannovic ahah alexxis
[12:05] Elie Spot yw!!
[12:05] Elie Spot suetabulous and siddean did you get the invite too?
[12:05] Alexxis DeCuir shush zlatan
[12:05] Elie Spot did i miss anyone?
[12:05] Alexxis DeCuir i couldnt see the platform!
[12:05] Alexxis DeCuir lmao
[12:05] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) just got it thanks elie!!
[12:05] ZlatanBLK Djannovic haha
[12:05] Darling Monday I still didn't get one :P
[12:05] Elie Spot <3!
[12:05] Yukio Ida still need inv
[12:05] SySy Chapman uh oh
[12:05] Yukio Ida :3
[12:05] Nyx Linden Greetings all, thanks for coming out. we'll get started in another minute
[12:06] RedPoly Inventor group hug!
[12:06] Ross Myhre SL's finest, ... gathered on a plywood platform
[12:06] Nyx Linden the agenda for today is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group we'll try our best to get through it all, but please be patient as there are many more of you than there are lindens :)
[12:06] Tiberious Neruda ...I haven't seen a meeting this crowded in ages
[12:07] Nyx Linden /me makes a mental note to have a backup plaform for larger meetings
[12:07] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Server user group has had 80+ a couple of months ago.
[12:07] RedPoly Inventor wow
[12:07] RedPoly Inventor such love for .. servers..
[12:07] Raz Welles Why is there so many people today o_o
[12:07] Tiberious Neruda what's caused increased participation?
[12:07] RedPoly Inventor :)))
[12:07] Raz Welles I htought today was jst a regular meeting
[12:07] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) It was actually an angry mob. xP
[12:07] RedPoly Inventor haha
[12:07] Raz Welles oh angry mob, got it
[12:07] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would cause less confusion if you align the other platform with the sim border. XD
[12:07] Raz Welles /me hands out ye olde pitchforks
[12:07] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) phew
[12:08] Tyr Rozenblum o.o none of us are angry
[12:08] Geenz Spad it's a regular meeting with a bit of show and tell it seems
[12:08] DrFran Babcock storm the barricades!
[12:08] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) No-ones angry. I want to be here cause I make mesh and it's important to me. :)
[12:08] sachi Vixen I brought my pitchfork
[12:08] Tyr Rozenblum we're all actually pretty excited to be quite honest.
[12:08] Nyx Linden alright all, sorry for the confusion, I didn't have a chance to prepare a better platform.
[12:08] Nyx Linden shall we get started?
[12:08] Raz Welles Excited for what
[12:08] Siddean Munro all good with me
[12:08] Tyr Rozenblum you'll see.
[12:08] Raz Welles oki
[12:08] RedPoly Inventor i can't move.. brilliant :))
[12:08] Kesiika Markova ok I am headed to the horizon ..
[12:09] RedPoly Inventor test
[12:09] Raz Welles might have to leave soon :(
[12:09] Cracked Mirror can you come a little closer to the center nyx so we can all hear
[12:09] sachi Vixen Oz Linden for president!
[12:09] Nyx Linden topic 1: "Can Linden provide any feedback/knowledge concerning a method of mesh clothing upload which circumvents the use of the existing mesh clothing deformer yet provides similar (if not the same) functionality? For background, a known full-perm clothing merchant recently made available an article of clothing which conforms to changes in av slider values. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POwQE10sxGg&feature=player_embedded )They claim the item does not use Qarl's mesh clothing deformer but decline to discuss the method being used behind the object creation. Speculation is that a hack is being done to .dae files in order to get this to work. If this is the case, is this a method of content creation which designers should or should not make use of at this time? Aki Shichiroji"
[12:09] Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Borrowdale looks like it's on the verge of crashing...
[12:09] sachi Vixen .
[12:10] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) You mean other then the ones that actually move stretch bones?
[12:10] Elie Spot yes
[12:10] Elie Spot body fat
[12:10] Elie Spot belly
[12:10] Elie Spot butt
[12:10] Elie Spot etc
[12:12] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) oh then it's a ghost
[12:12] moo Money he's like a little teddy bear
[12:12] Lindsay Pinelli that one is full so I guess here?
[12:12] DrFran Babcock I see gray people
[12:12] moo Money half under the platform
[12:12] Nyx Linden hrm, difficult to move around here. can everyone hear me?
[12:12] Cracked Mirror he's ghosted
[12:12] Damien (damien.fate) lol
[12:12] Tiberious Neruda I can
[12:12] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) i can
[12:12] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I can
[12:13] SteelsAmanyt Stringer read yeah
[12:13] RedPoly Inventor i think i'm back..
[12:13] Anouk Spot welcome back
[12:13] Tyr Rozenblum wb sir
[12:13] Elie Spot wb! <3
[12:13] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) actually hear or read
[12:13] Alexxis DeCuir welcome back :D
[12:13] RedPoly Inventor are we started ?
[12:13] Dawnde Lane WELLCOME BACK!!! I MISS YOU
[12:13] RedPoly Inventor omg !
[12:13] RedPoly Inventor hug me!
[12:13] RedPoly Inventor NOW!
[12:14] Meraud ty!
[12:14] Alexxis DeCuir i see your text nyx.. but i dont see you haha
[12:14] Lindsay Pinelli /me hugs you xD
[12:14] Raz Welles everyone is gray goo now
[12:14] RedPoly Inventor :P
[12:14] Alexxis DeCuir and i dont hear anything at all
[12:14] Darling Monday finally got back in lol
[12:14] Raz Welles should I relog
[12:14] Geenz Spad give it one more minute I suppose?
[12:14] Geenz Spad it's probably a bad idea to relog
[12:14] Raz Welles ok
[12:15] Nyx Linden so with regards to this particular topic, I first saw this new technique this morning, I have not personally had a chance to look into it in any detail
[12:15] RedPoly Inventor i'm here for that :)
[12:15] Geenz Spad my guess is it's a rigging trick
[12:15] RedPoly Inventor to explain in detail
[12:15] Alexxis DeCuir id love to know
[12:15] RedPoly Inventor what and how
[12:15] Gaia Clary all ears :)
[12:15] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) yes please
[12:15] Nyx Linden RedPoly, you have the floor, please enlighten us :)
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor ouch..
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor :))
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor okay
[12:16] Oz Linden how about everyone but RedPoly sit down and we'll all listen for a bit?
[12:16] Anouk Spot good idea
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor the trick is to use the collision volumes for the rigging part
[12:16] Geenz Spad Ctrl + Alt + S for the win
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor they where designed to scale and move with the morphs
[12:16] RedPoly Inventor in order to cover them
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor i assume used for physics some time
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor the problem with them
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor for the rigger
[12:17] Geenz Spad collision volumes? you mean the additional bones that are seemingly unused?
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor is that they have special rotation, size , and position
[12:17] Gaia Clary what are collision volumes ?
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor all listed in the avatar_skeleton.xml
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor show collision volume on the viewer
[12:17] Raz Welles Can they be affected with .anim too?
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor wear alpha
[12:17] RedPoly Inventor and change ur shape
[12:18] Anouk Spot maybe let him speak first :S
[12:18] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) yes lol
[12:18] Raz Welles sorry ^^;
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor u will see them scale up , and move
[12:18] Kesiika Markova Please, leave him explain and he will answer at the end :))
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor they move and scale in a very specific way
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor all listend in avatar_lad.xml
[12:18] Geenz Spad figured it was something along those lines, though I didn't know that they could actually scale
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor each appiriance slider
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor triggers
[12:18] RedPoly Inventor not only morphs , but volume morphs too
[12:19] RedPoly Inventor so all good but there are tons of problems and downs , let me explain
[12:19] RedPoly Inventor 1st. u need new skeleton linked to the mBones , created based on the avatar_skeleton
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor 2. u need to have this movement simulated in ur software of choice
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor avatar morph + volume movement/scale
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor this is where Gaia comes in
[12:20] Gaia Clary oh?
[12:20] Raz Welles :D
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor coding :)
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor without this u will work blind
[12:20] RedPoly Inventor completly
[12:21] RedPoly Inventor basicaly u have big control of the deformation
[12:21] RedPoly Inventor because u actually control it with ur rigging
[12:21] RedPoly Inventor but .. they are limmits
[12:21] RedPoly Inventor for example 100% fat moves the belly down
[12:21] RedPoly Inventor the collision volumes can't cover this completely
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor so ur weighting needs to be offceded
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor the line between nice deform and entering the body when moves
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor is very thin
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor the movement in the avatar lad are in parent space
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor parent bone
[12:22] RedPoly Inventor this is important for those who will create the simulation
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor i have another proposal based on this
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor which will work much better
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor i'm talking about new set of bones
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor like to call them cBones
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor they will be linked to the mBones
[12:23] RedPoly Inventor 0 rotation , 1.00 scale
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor but sliders in the LAD file will
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor trigger movement , improved one
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor and scaling
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor because with collision , the belly part is very very problematic
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor many clothing models can't be made to work with it
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor u need to hide it big time with alphas
[12:24] RedPoly Inventor my initial tests on the cBones idea indicate
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor that we will need second torso
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor to cover 100% fat at the back
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor and the bell
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor belly*
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor we will need 2 bones for the breasts
[12:25] Mouse Puppets Click me to toggle the animation on/off
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor and probably 1 or 2 for the butt
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor some of the bones , mBones are already
[12:25] RedPoly Inventor scaleable
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor like mHead , mHands etc
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor so they don't need to be cBones
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor the control over the deformation will be big
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor and those will be animateable
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor which can be very benefitial
[12:26] RedPoly Inventor collision volumes are solution , but a very limited one
[12:27] RedPoly Inventor and it triples weighting time
[12:27] RedPoly Inventor and without a programed sumulation system it's almost imposible to work with
[12:27] Tyr Rozenblum if this was RL, i'd be buying you a beer right about now.
[12:27] Geenz Spad it's a hack that uses unused bones in the skeleton, and the workflow sounds like it's far from an ideal solution
[12:27] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol
[12:27] Nyx Linden sounds interesting, and very challenging
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor Nyx the cool part is
[12:28] DrFran Babcock would a new LInden skeleton help, RedPoly?
[12:28] Tiberious Neruda ...you mentioned these are collision volumes... could this be used later to improve avatar collisions?
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor patching this is .. plain text :)
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor all can work on it
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor perfecting it
[12:28] Elie Spot ^!
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor avatar_lad
[12:28] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) That's fantastic!
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor skeleton.xml
[12:28] Geenz Spad Tiberious: don't count it
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor that's all
[12:28] Anouk Spot that's awesome
[12:28] Geenz Spad the bones using it are if anything used to detect where you've touched something AFAIK
[12:28] RedPoly Inventor we need to find the offseting and the scale that will cover 100% fat
[12:28] Cracked Mirror sounds extremely difficult
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor and we are done
[12:29] Siddean Munro Geenz, can we get an answer from the Lindens please?
[12:29] Elie Spot yes please
[12:29] Tiberious Neruda oh... you mean the parts that show up when you do Show Collision Skeleton?
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor yes
[12:29] Kesiika Markova yeap
[12:29] Tyr Rozenblum geenz, shhhh and come sit by momma
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor this are collision volumes
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor put and alpha
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor change ur shape
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor 100% fat
[12:29] Nyx Linden so sounds like there are two different discussions here: 1) the viability of using the existing collision volumes for weighting, and the drawbacks there, and 2) the proposal to add more 'cbones" that would track the morph params more accurately than the current collision volumes. Correct?
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor u will see the movement and scale
[12:29] Tiberious Neruda you mean we can actually move and change those too?
[12:29] RedPoly Inventor yes
[12:30] Raz Welles How does this solution compare against Qarl's mesh deformer?
[12:30] Raz Welles /me is curious
[12:30] RedPoly Inventor my expiriance shows that collision bones are very limited and hard to predict
[12:30] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would this be easier than adding a shape ley morph feature?
[12:30] Damien (damien.fate) From what I've seen, the deformation from RedPoly's version is nicer
[12:30] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would this be easier than adding a shape key morph feature?*
[12:30] RedPoly Inventor cBones will move and scale better
[12:30] Elie Spot agree w/ damien, much smoother on RedPoly's garment
[12:30] RedPoly Inventor Damien controlled by the skinning :)
[12:30] Tiberious Neruda Raz: I think what he's saying is the real solution is already here, and that the deformer is, well, unnecessary
[12:30] RedPoly Inventor or by the user :)
[12:30] Siddean Munro /me would like to control how my models deform
[12:30] Geenz Spad biggest problem would be sorting out a work flow
[12:31] Elie Spot agree w/ siddean
[12:31] Cracked Mirror ok my opinion on this is that no time should be devoted to this by LL unless it poses a security risk and the focus should be on the deformer which is obviously a much better solution
[12:31] Nyx Linden in the youtube video, did you use just the current collision volumes, or did you use modifications to our xml files as well?
[12:31] Damien (damien.fate) You could with this, Siddean
[12:31] RedPoly Inventor Nyx collision volumes
[12:31] Elie Spot ^^ yes
[12:31] Damien (damien.fate) since you paint the weights to the cBones
[12:31] Elie Spot i think thats what sid is saying, redpoly's solution is preferred
[12:31] Elie Spot as far as control
[12:31] RedPoly Inventor second torso is a must for the cBones
[12:31] Gaia Clary How do we access the collsiion volumes from insode our 3D tools ?
[12:31] RedPoly Inventor 2 breast and at least 1 butt nones
[12:31] RedPoly Inventor too
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor Gaia they are nones
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor check the avatar_skeleton
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor u need to mimic same hierarchy
[12:32] Gaia Clary can you give an example ?
[12:32] Gaia Clary name ?
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor <bone name="mPelvis" pos="0.000 0.000 1.067" rot="0.000000 0.000000 0.000000" scale="1.000 1.000 1.000" pivot="0.000000 0.000000 1.067015">
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor so PELVIS is linked to the mPelvis
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor but notice the SCALE
[12:32] Gaia Clary ah!!
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor need to be compensated
[12:32] RedPoly Inventor it's not 1!
[12:33] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Is this the same volumes Prep Linden talked about way back?
[12:33] RedPoly Inventor rotation and position too
[12:33] RedPoly Inventor yep..
[12:33] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ah ok. I'm with you now.
[12:33] RedPoly Inventor collision volumes , attachments , hud position == bones
[12:33] Gaia Clary Ok, we are going to work on a solution :)
[12:33] RedPoly Inventor all of them
[12:33] RedPoly Inventor ..
[12:33] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I remember he was working on a solution using collisions before.
[12:34] Tiberious Neruda that's why we could animate attachment points and rig to them as if they were bones, right?
[12:34] RedPoly Inventor i told him..
[12:34] RedPoly Inventor november 2011..
[12:34] RedPoly Inventor he worked .. and that was it ..
[12:34] Damien (damien.fate) Yes Tiberius
[12:34] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) He did get samples from me and some other I think. But, never heard the verdict.
[12:34] RedPoly Inventor i thought he didn't like it
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yea, he never said either way.
[12:35] Tiberious Neruda so really, what we need is for the importer to accept weighting groups with spaces in their names
[12:35] Gaia Clary YES!!!!!!
[12:35] RedPoly Inventor the cool part is , something i know lindens like
[12:35] RedPoly Inventor no new sliders
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol
[12:35] Elie Spot ^
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes
[12:35] Tyr Rozenblum \o/
[12:35] RedPoly Inventor we can use old ones :)
[12:35] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) Yay!
[12:35] Siddean Munro fine with me :)
[12:35] Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth) lol yup
[12:35] RedPoly Inventor ooo i forgot , collision volumes DON"T deform any breast slider
[12:35] RedPoly Inventor !
[12:35] Damien (damien.fate) It seems like implementation of your proposal wouldn't really affect any existing content either, which is nice.
[12:36] Geenz Spad so the real question is I think, how can the workflow be perfected?
[12:36] Gaia Clary LIndens, we even have a patch for you for the weighting groups with spaces ....
[12:36] sachi Vixen Well Linden Lab, look how smart your community is?!
[12:36] RedPoly Inventor for me the cBones is the ultimate solution
[12:36] Geenz Spad because from the sounds of it, the existing workflow is pretty tedious
[12:36] Gaia Clary and we talked with prep about that 6 months ago
[12:36] Tyr Rozenblum im pretty in awe at the moment
[12:36] Nyx Linden there are definitely some large drawbacks to the method, but the potential results look impressive. I'd like to separate the discussion of the current solution from the proposed feature request of cbones for now
[12:36] Elie Spot ^ RedPoly is genius imho
[12:36] Anouk Spot exactly, im so impressed, you guys are amazing
[12:37] RedPoly Inventor np Nyx
[12:37] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I'm in awe, RedPoly.
[12:37] Damien (damien.fate) I'd rather triple rigging time with cBones than provide 5 sizes plus one deformer code size.
[12:37] Siddean Munro ^same
[12:37] Elie Spot ^^ agreed damien
[12:37] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Agreed Damien
[12:37] Tyr Rozenblum agreed
[12:37] Kesiika Markova who wouldn't .. :)))
[12:37] Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth) for real
[12:37] RedPoly Inventor yep , viva cBones
[12:37] Nyx Linden RedPoly - could we get a copy of your models to evaluate with some internal tools?
[12:37] Siddean Munro sizes is even more tedious because they still don't accommodate everyone
[12:37] Elie Spot VIVA CBONES
[12:37] Yukio Ida this really sounds like a complicated learning curb with an extra coding program for people who don't quite understand this.. so.. how is the overal usability of this workflow matching up to a built in deformer or can it be adapted?
[12:37] Gaia Clary and what if we would supply an automatic weighting ?
[12:37] RedPoly Inventor collision volimes will rise many questions , and hair pulling
[12:37] RedPoly Inventor trust me ...
[12:37] Tiberious Neruda and if I could get the collision volumes to match my shapes, I'm for it too
[12:38] Damien (damien.fate) Yukio, that is just the current way that RedPoly did it, he needed to do coding to make it work with the way the collision points are now
[12:38] RedPoly Inventor yes the coding part is tricky
[12:38] Tiberious Neruda you'll notice that the camera doesn't catch on the av itself, but raher is collision volumes
[12:38] Damien (damien.fate) the cBones is an extra proposal to bypass the coding
[12:38] Cracked Mirror but is this a viable alternative to the deformer? Is that what were talking about... or just a hack to hold us over until the deformer arrives
[12:38] Nyx Linden redpoly - also if you could submit a proposal for your feature request, to let us know exactly what it involves so we can evaluate it, that would be appreciated
[12:38] RedPoly Inventor yes , they will mostly scale
[12:38] Geenz Spad Cracked: I'd classify this more as a hack
[12:39] Geenz Spad a very interesting one though
[12:39] Tiberious Neruda Geenz, I don't understand how you'd thinkt hat
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor i have no clue how to do that , but will investigate :)
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor thanks Nyx
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor Nyx the best part is .. community can make it :)
[12:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Not sure why you'd call it a hack Geenz
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor with nice organization :)
[12:39] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Redpoly, can people without a patched viewer see these deforms?
[12:39] Nyx Linden I can sync up with you offline, to make sure we're looking at the same thing
[12:39] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) It seems more like a workaround than a hack.
[12:39] Siddean Munro I see them in the current SL viewer
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor Davido yes , every viewer have collision volumes
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor 1.12 too
[12:39] RedPoly Inventor :))
[12:40] RedPoly Inventor they are very very old
[12:40] RedPoly Inventor Nyx great
[12:40] Nyx Linden This is something we're doing to have to spend some time looking into to see how viable of a workflow it is. We have a number of old topics, any objection to moving on for this week?
[12:40] Tyr Rozenblum poly i sent you beer, thank you so much for today.
[12:40] RedPoly Inventor Tyr thanks! :)
[12:40] Tyr Rozenblum you and your team
[12:40] SySy Chapman don't make him drunk now!
[12:40] Geenz Spad I can assist in putting one together, but really, this is basically using parts of the avatar that weren't really intended for this sort of thing
[12:40] Cracked Mirror thank you red we realllyy appreciate this :)
[12:40] DrFran Babcock this was very generous of you.
[12:40] Kesiika Markova :) np
[12:41] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Thanks for investigating that Red
[12:41] Damien (damien.fate) It's called innovation :) great work RedPoly
[12:41] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I think this is a very positive step for the community as a whole.
[12:41] Siddean Munro Thanks Redpoly!
[12:41] RedPoly Inventor np ;)
[12:41] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) So basically you weight it to the collision volume bones instead of the regular rig?
[12:41] Tiberious Neruda that might be, Geenz, but why should there be extra coding in the client for the deformer when there's already soemthing that does the same thing?
[12:41] Elie Spot ty so much redpoly
[12:41] Anouk Spot Redpoly for avatar of year!
[12:41] RedPoly Inventor thanks !
[12:41] Tyr Rozenblum geenz need you to turn your frown upside down and bring a little sunshine, this is a positive step, and exciting to say the least. Thank you again guys.
[12:41] Anouk Spot thanks so much for sharing your knowledge
[12:41] Geenz Spad Tiberious: workflow much?
[12:41] sachi Vixen I want a bear :(
[12:41] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Redpoly, So basically you weight it to the collision volume bones instead of the regular rig?
[12:41] Siddean Munro and this "unimportant" topic almost filled 2 sims
[12:41] Draconis Neurocam geenz most of sl is built on things that were used for something no where near their original intention
[12:42] Elie Spot ^^ what siddean said
[12:42] RedPoly Inventor Davido basicaly yes
[12:42] Geenz Spad I mean, if the workflow could be made easier, or otherwise replaced with an official viewer, it wouldn't be so bad
[12:42] Elie Spot ^^ what draconis said
[12:42] Tiberious Neruda you rig to another set of bones
[12:42] SySy Chapman this sounds like its well worth to learn
[12:42] Elie Spot ^^ agreed sysy
[12:42] Darling Monday whispers: yes thank you for sharing! :)
[12:42] Geenz Spad but generally speaking, we shouldn't need to keep tacking things on using functionality that could potentially break later
[12:42] SySy Chapman we ALL want to get rid of the sizing issues this is amazing then
[12:42] Darling Monday apparently i needed to whisper that
[12:42] Elie Spot haha darling <#
[12:42] Elie Spot <33
[12:42] Lindsay Pinelli this makes me want to learn to make mesh clothes even more
[12:43] Geenz Spad that's really more my point above all else
[12:43] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Sizing is an albatross around designers necks.
[12:43] Elie Spot yes
[12:43] Draconis Neurocam geenz that is the other great thing about sl, never being able to break legacy content, no matter how annoying it is
[12:43] SySy Chapman LOL asha
[12:43] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) I think a video of your workflow would help a lot of people Red
[12:43] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) This still won't solve what the deformer is meant to solve though? Because rigged clothing would scale with rigged body and you would still need alphas?
[12:43] Nyx Linden ok, I'll be syncing up with RedPoly offline to get more detail and investigate the different options there are here, I'm definitely happy to see such interest in new techniques
[12:43] Tyr Rozenblum thanks nyx!
[12:43] Siddean Munro Geenz, I get that this isn't a priority to you, but it is to a lot of other people and all we want is an open dialog with the Lab about how to work around it!
[12:43] SySy Chapman awesome!
[12:43] Elie Spot alphas are np, for covering small glitches...
[12:44] Siddean Munro now we have it!
[12:44] Nyx Linden can we move on to other topics for now?
[12:44] Siddean Munro thank you Lab guys :)
[12:44] Tyr Rozenblum yes!
[12:44] Siddean Munro yes!
[12:44] Tyr Rozenblum (to nyx)
[12:44] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) You'll need alphas regardless for some outfits.
[12:44] Ross Myhre I don't think th ediscussion is Red's current workflow, but more how it can be expanded upon for future use. i.e his cBones suggestion
[12:44] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) Yep!
[12:44] Geenz Spad Siddean, you can stop twisting my words, kthx :)
[12:44] Jin Elfan lol
[12:44] Elie Spot thanks for allowing this discussion Nyx <3 seriously appreciated!
[12:44] Nyx Linden next topic: "Any mesh item must provide 21 dedicated bone weight groups (see below), otherwise the SL Importer does not accept the item. However these weight groups can be empty. What is the reason for having this constraint? If this constraint does not exist, then where can i find an example .dae file which shows how to import a mesh with less than the following list of bone weight groups ?
[12:44] Yukio Ida i agree with geens. i have avoided making mesh clothing because of the sizing issues, and i've like many others have been waiting for the deformer. I do hope though that there is a possibility to make this more functionable :x that';s all i gotta say *hushes*
[12:45] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Didn't Redpoly just answer that? XD
[12:45] Nyx Linden no its a completely separate question actually :)
[12:46] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) My, this is confusing. XD
[12:46] Nyx Linden I'm trying to get a hold of other avatar skeleton experts internally but I believe we had some difficulty with some bugs surrounding "partially" rigged meshes (without defined bones for the whole skeleton)
[12:47] Gaia Clary yes, but the point is... the weight groups can be empty.
[12:47] Nyx Linden as stated in the topic, you can have the bones defined, just keep the weight groups empty, and the mesh will import
[12:47] Raz Welles Well if we're gonna throw more bones into the avatar xml, can we ask for extra bones for general purposes to tide us over until custom armatures :P
[12:47] Gaia Clary so why doesnt the importer just create the missing weight groups ????
[12:48] Raz Welles /me figured it wouldn't hurt to ask while the topic is hot
[12:48] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me snorts
[12:48] Raz Welles :}
[12:48] Gaia Clary that would help many many many usres i believe
[12:49] Tiberious Neruda Raz: if you mean finger bones, I'm down for that
[12:49] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) A good portion of the file issues I help people with steam from those missing empty groups. So, it would help if the importer could catch that and add them.
[12:49] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) i'm not sure if this helps but the kirsten viewer which is now not in distribution anymore, used to allow imports of "partially rigged mesh"
[12:49] Raz Welles sure, finger bones, face bones, hair bones, creepy eye monster bones whateverbones you want :3
[12:50] Tiberious Neruda I mean the standardized bones
[12:50] Gaia Clary btw... we had versions of the importer that just didi THAT
[12:50] Nyx Linden Is there a JIRA for this topic?
[12:50] Siddean Munro face, fingers, toes tyvm :p
[12:50] Gaia Clary for a while it worked one day, but not the other day.
[12:50] Raz Welles siddean: hehe
[12:50] Gaia Clary Nyx there have benn tons og jiras for this topic...
[12:50] Gaia Clary been tons of...
[12:50] Gaia Clary :)
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Right
[12:51] Tiberious Neruda unless you're planning on making some kind of ape avatar, toes are less improtant than fingers, IMO
[12:51] Eboni (eboni.khan) if there are so many just paste one, there are so many frivilous JIRAs it is hard to keep track of the legit ones
[12:51] Nyx Linden I need to contact a few other lindens to get the technical details on this one - could you email me the relevant jira numbers and I'll try to have a more complete answer next week?
[12:52] Gaia Clary i can go and look them up sure.
[12:52] Tiberious Neruda me, I'd love a chain of about 8 we can rig to that would act like a flexiprim
[12:53] Nyx Linden thanks, I'll try to recall to make a note to carry this topic over to next week for followup
[12:53] Quenemue Cyberstar i've been away from SL for few months so im not perfectly sure about where we are at. Im hoping that someday we could have completely custom joint chains for our avatars
[12:53] Siddean Munro Tiberious, I have plenty of customers who would like wiggling toes :)
[12:53] Tiberious Neruda at the expense of perma-fists?
[12:53] Nyx Linden next topic: "For Mesh items with textures the SL Importer sometimes does not recognize the textures. In particular when a mesh contains weights and "weights" is enabled in the previewer, then the textures disappear instantly in the preview window and they do not get uploaded. Is this on purpose or is this a bug ? If this is not a bug but a wrong collada input, then where can i find an example .dae that allows to import textures along with a rigged mesh. Gaia Clary 01:33, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:54] Nyx Linden sounds like a bug to me :)
[12:54] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) i've never succesfully uploaded a mesh with texture...neither have many of the designers i know
[12:54] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) just saying..
[12:54] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) lol
[12:54] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I'd really love to know this, it'd be much better for workflow if it allowed the textures to load in with the .dae
[12:54] Gaia Clary this bug exists since a year
[12:54] Cracked Mirror yep I've never been able to upload a texture with a mesh either lol this is new to me
[12:54] SySy Chapman dito sue
[12:54] Tiberious Neruda I usually just don't bother with it
[12:54] Ross Myhre I always assumed the Textures box was simply to allow for multiple textures on one mesh and DIDN'T import the textures themselves o.O
[12:55] Lindsay Pinelli I haven't tried to. i make them separately
[12:55] Nyx Linden the intent is that you should be able to include textures in the upload of the .dae.
[12:55] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) Any .dae's I've tried to upload with textures on also tend to give the dreaded Mav_block_missing error too
[12:55] Gaia Clary that works perfectly for static meshes.
[12:55] Ross Myhre I tick the box if my mesh has multiple materials, but NEVER get or expect to get a textured mesh on upload
[12:56] Gaia Clary Blender 2.64 will provide an export mode which guarantees that you can import static meshes with textures.
[12:56] l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde) I never have too
[12:56] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) a nice ok time to upgrade
[12:56] Gaia Clary and it would be awesome to also support rigged meshes with textures.
[12:56] Nyx Linden If you get me links to the relevant jira issues, I'll make a note that these are still causing content creators extra time to have to work around
[12:57] Gaia Clary again ok, i can look them up :)
[12:57] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) The rigged version is missing a material block that is in the static one when you export a dae file from Blender.
[12:58] Nyx Linden interesting - example .dae files would definitely help!
[12:58] Gaia Clary Asha, also on blender 2.64 ?
[12:58] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) The last time I compared dae files was back in 2.5 I think. I haven't checked with the latest build.
[12:59] Gaia Clary with the latest build you can import rigged meshes with textzures as long as you do not enable with weights ...
[12:59] Gaia Clary :(
[12:59] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hmmm..... o.O
[12:59] Gaia Clary and i guess i know exactly where the SL importer fails even :)
[12:59] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I'll have to give the new ones a looksie.
[13:00] Gaia Clary Maybe i create a new Jira for this. might help to get it fixed faster :)
[13:00] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) lol
[13:00] Nyx Linden any clarity you can provide would be appreciated :)
[13:00] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I'll vote on that JIRA! :D
[13:01] l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde) great
[13:01] l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde) thank you
[13:02] Nyx Linden unfortunately we're almost out of time, so we'll do one more topic this week and carry the rest over to next week
[13:02] Nyx Linden next topic: "I found that the SL Importer recognizes a rigged mesh by checking for a <controller> node in the collada file. It does not care about the scene description in that case. This implies that if we provide a full scene description that does no harm to the import. Is this correct ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[13:03] Gaia Clary I am almost sure that we can do it. But it would be great to hear from Lindens side that its actually OK to do it :)
[13:04] Gaia Clary reason: only supplying a <controller> has been identified as bad collada file, at least as very non standard.
[13:04] Nyx Linden once you specify that you're uploading a rigged mesh, the importer only looks at the data that is actually rigged to the avatar mesh, the rest should be ignored
[13:04] Gaia Clary but that is what Blender does since 2.49.
[13:04] Nyx Linden assuming that there isn't malformed xml or other basic parsing issues
[13:05] Gaia Clary ok, then we can do it as intended. thanks!
[13:06] Gaia Clary Well that was a very exciting meeting today :)
[13:06] Nyx Linden alright everyone, thanks for coming out this week! I'll carry over the rest of the topics for next week :)
[13:06] Gaia Clary ok
[13:06] Kesiika Markova great :)
[13:07] Anouk Spot thanks Nyx
[13:07] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) I'm looking forward to coming to future meetings too, I'm really interested in the future of mesh :)
[13:07] Siddean Munro thanks Nyx!
[13:07] Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz) Thanks Nyx :D
[13:07] Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron) ty
[13:07] RedPoly Inventor thanks Nyx!
[13:07] .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz) thanks for your time
[13:07] Siddean Munro worth staying up for ^_^
[13:07] MeshMaker ty!
[13:07] Lindsay Pinelli thank you Nyx and RedPoly :)
[13:07] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you Nyx.
[13:07] Nyx Linden have a great week everybody!