Mesh/Archive/2012-07-16

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Agenda

  1. Any chance we will ever see support for more riggable extremities (like a tail or true taur style avatars) ? Squirrel Wood 10:22, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  2. I've seen a lot of marketplace failed deliveries. when can we expect a system that just works? GM Nikolaidis 10:37, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  3. Is there a known fix for transparent textures not showing up as transparent unless highlighted? Aki Shichiroji 12:05, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  4. Are morph targets back on the table? Stickman 12:06, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  5. Are custom skeletons still in the works? How about object/non-avatar skeleton and animations to go along with the pathfinding project? Stickman 12:06, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
  6. Any news on the new Avatar Bake process? Nalates Urriah

Meeting Notes



Transcript for Monday July 16, 2012

[12:02] Nyx Linden greetings all
[12:02] Rusalka Writer Cheers.
[12:02] Braydon Randt 01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111 nyx
[12:02] Aki Shichiroji indeed
[12:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Bray
[12:02] Racush (racush.cheeky) heya Rusalka
[12:02] Rusalka Writer Aloha!
[12:03] Nyx Linden agenda is here for anyone who has topics: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03] Kennylex Luckless 01001000 01100101 01101100 01201100 01101111 nyx
[12:04] Rusalka Writer That's it? Mesh must be perfected!
[12:04] Aki Shichiroji looks like it'll be a short day :P
[12:04] Motor Loon short
[12:04] Nyx Linden what is that about my mother? o.0 (2 is not a valid binary character :D )
[12:04] Rusalka Writer Pony Day! We're finished and we'll all get our ponies!
[12:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol
[12:04] Braydon Randt blame bablefish
[12:04] Motor Loon damn... hope its not one of those breedable ponies you gotta buy food for
[12:05] Nyx Linden let's get started shall we?
[12:05] Braydon Randt yuppers
[12:05] Nyx Linden topic 1: "Any chance we will ever see support for more riggable extremities (like a tail or true taur style avatars) ? Squirrel Wood 10:22, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:05] Vincent Nacon no
[12:05] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:05] Rusalka Writer Lol.
[12:05] Rusalka Writer Bye, everybody!
[12:05] Nyx Linden are you requesting additional standard bones, or custom skeletons?
[12:05] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) speaking of ponies... http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/eceb/
[12:05] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) depends on what is easier to implement
[12:06] Vincent Nacon in other words, yes
[12:06] Nal (nalates.urriah) What's the odds on both/either?
[12:06] Vincent Nacon cause that's the only way
[12:06] Aki Shichiroji /me would have loved to add working ears on this av :C
[12:06] Kennylex Luckless Tail bone is only thing missing as standard
[12:06] Nyx Linden adding more bones is possible, but inflexible (one set of bones to rule them all!), where custom skeletons are more flexible and a lot more work to manage.
[12:07] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) Which is more likely to make it in short term? :)
[12:07] Rusalka Writer I had to cross-rig some of my extra legs. Actual extra legs would be nice.
[12:07] Motor Loon I'd guess neither
[12:07] Nyx Linden in the actual short term? neither, our engineers are pretty full up. In the mid-term? adding more standard bones would be simpler.
[12:07] Drongle McMahon Short term? You mean before 2034?
[12:08] Vincent Nacon or you could just ask for Avatar 2.0, which could support extra bones
[12:08] Geenz Spad /me tries to imagine what kind of fallback system would be needed for animations that operate on different skeletons
[12:08] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) geenz, mapping based on position ?
[12:09] Nyx Linden but which bones? Tail? if so, how many bones/joints? ears? Extra limbs?
[12:09] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) yes please
[12:09] Rusalka Writer We've got unused bones. Recycling's no good? Stick an eye bone to your butt?
[12:09] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) tails.. lots for there are not only tails that wag but that are prehensile
[12:09] Geenz Spad how most systems work is they'll attempt to find certain named nodes and only operate on them, pretty much leaving the other bones alone; that or you can base it upon the general hierarchy, but that'd be iffy at best
[12:09] Vincent Nacon most common extra limbs are tail, arms, legs and ears
[12:10] Drongle McMahon Tail should be a whole chain of bones.
[12:10] Vincent Nacon while those extra arms could be wings
[12:10] Drongle McMahon Wings?
[12:10] Drongle McMahon ok
[12:10] Motor Loon penis?
[12:10] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) O.o
[12:10] Braydon Randt O.o
[12:10] Vincent Nacon Motor.... don't make me punch you
[12:10] Geenz Spad oh dear
[12:10] Kennylex Luckless Just skip bone for third leg.
[12:10] Braydon Randt bones ... not bone
[12:11] Motor Loon ah
[12:11] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) more bones would certainly add more flexibility and allow for more elaborate avatars with unusual features
[12:11] Motor Loon my mistake
[12:11] Vincent Nacon but he does have a point
[12:11] Chubbalicious (chubbalicious.chauveau) what would be the minimum required for tail..3 joints?
[12:11] Vincent Nacon porn creators would ask for it anyway
[12:11] Rusalka Writer Hentai ahoy...
[12:11] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) for a squirrel tail? can't have enough bones :p
[12:12] Motor Loon hey! If you guys get earbones I want a penisbone... or I'll hold my breath and stomp my foot
[12:12] Geenz Spad wonder how feasible it'd be to add a secondary "extended" skeleton that would theoretically supersede the existing skeleton for people who want to rig against it
[12:12] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) but I'd say at least 9 bones so kitsune can has their nine tails :p
[12:12] Rusalka Writer Nyx has gone to lunch...
[12:12] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) information overload :p
[12:12] Nyx Linden so if there is a need for this, we would need to get a more specific spec on exactly what is being requested
[12:12] Motor Loon /me (like Nyx) goes to get more coffee
[12:12] Vincent Nacon OR... just work on Avatar 2.0
[12:13] Aki Shichiroji well the thing is the possibilities are so wide reaching
[12:13] Rusalka Writer Apparently we want new and exciting porn opportunities.
[12:13] Braydon Randt so .. 2 extra legs , 2 extra arms ... a tail ... amnd aerrrmmmmmm tail
[12:13] Rusalka Writer Prehensile... stuff.
[12:13] Nyx Linden also, this is a feature that the server side would not be required to care about, so it could be done with just viewer-side work (or very little server-side work)
[12:13] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) good :)
[12:13] Drongle McMahon Google tells me monkeys have up to 40 tail vertebrae.
[12:13] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) tentacles.. :p
[12:14] Motor Loon I'd personally like to see linkset hierarchy more than custom bones...
[12:14] Vincent Nacon http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:14] Geenz Spad I'm pretty sure that the Avatar 2.0 thing is kind of dead in the water; may as well focus on ways we can produce additional features that would be a bit further reaching than Avatar 2.0
[12:14] Nyx Linden (hence third party devs can contribute as well :) )
[12:14] Rusalka Writer I suddenly feel overdressed.
[12:14] Geenz Spad and I'd be interested in helping most definitely, though I'm with Nyx that what would be needed would have to be established
[12:15] Braydon Randt dont worry Rusa ..... your "armless" :p
[12:15] Drongle McMahon Yes. Eight limbs in total would allow an octopus.
[12:15] Rusalka Writer Yeeey...
[12:15] Vincent Nacon right
[12:15] Rusalka Writer Squids need ten.
[12:15] Nyx Linden there are plenty of other projects that would help as well, so its a priority question as much as anything else.
[12:15] Kennylex Luckless A cat has 20, but question is how few is needed for creators to be able to make a tail, and with mes I think 4 or 5 will do
[12:15] Nyx Linden but is it possible? yes.
[12:15] Rusalka Writer Some squid, I should add.
[12:15] Rusalka Writer Same for crabs.
[12:16] Geenz Spad morph targets 8D
[12:16] Vincent Nacon what I mean is... if you're gonna add extra bones... it's ideal to work on new Avatar structure instead of making patches over an old outdated strcture
[12:16] Drongle McMahon Oh yes. And crabs need eye stalks too.
[12:16] Nyx Linden If someone wants to take point on drawing up a specific proposal, please put it up in jira
[12:16] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) +1 morph targets :p
[12:16] Rusalka Writer Tails, wings, ears, and penii will be most in demand.
[12:16] Chubbalicious (chubbalicious.chauveau) for sure
[12:16] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Wasn't there already a extra limb JIRA?
[12:16] Motor Loon wait... what about toe bones?
[12:16] Geenz Spad I'm willing to help organize a proposal
[12:16] Rusalka Writer If Reed were here...
[12:16] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *an
[12:16] Motor Loon so we can wiggle
[12:16] Vincent Nacon it's all in Avatar 2.0
[12:17] Kennylex Luckless ... and a funny bine.
[12:17] Rusalka Writer Sure, Motor, sure.
[12:17] Vincent Nacon with face bones, fingers bones, toes etc etc
[12:17] Braydon Randt i would like a bone that i can rig for capes?
[12:17] Vincent Nacon even tongue
[12:17] Geenz Spad stick to what would be most obvious to most users
[12:17] Rusalka Writer This is like "know your neighbor" hour.
[12:17] Nyx Linden shall we move to the next topic?
[12:17] Motor Loon I just want a "bad bone"
[12:17] Vincent Nacon no
[12:17] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:17] Geenz Spad fingers? sure; toes? not so sure
[12:18] Geenz Spad maybe this is something to discuss at another meeting? :P
[12:18] Rusalka Writer Groovy.
[12:18] Nyx Linden yep, need more specifics before we can prioitize the work.
[12:18] Vincent Nacon http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0
[12:19] Nyx Linden next topic: "I've seen a lot of marketplace failed deliveries. when can we expect a system that just works? GM Nikolaidis 10:37, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:19] Aki Shichiroji in the grand scheme of things, how might something like custom bones or skeletons compare to something like materials?
[12:19] Aki Shichiroji priority-wise
[12:19] Rusalka Writer Wrong group, methinks.
[12:19] Kennylex Luckless Quick question: Aften I has use some mesh avas I later has to relog to be able ro reload shape, is there any quick fix so I not need to relog
[12:19] Rusalka Writer Same here.
[12:19] Vincent Nacon .....Stickman, I wrote that wiki page
[12:19] Drongle McMahon There's a Grand Scheme?
[12:20] Aki Shichiroji Drongle: :P
[12:20] Nyx Linden next topic: "I've seen a lot of marketplace failed deliveries. when can we expect a system that just works? GM Nikolaidis 10:37, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:20] Kennylex Luckless It do not work for me
[12:20] Vincent Nacon wrong meeting for that kind of question
[12:20] Motor Loon MP seems to work ok as far as I'm concerned
[12:20] Motor Loon haven't had any failed deliveries
[12:20] Nyx Linden I'm not currently aware of specific failures with marketplace. If you're seeing them, you should file a support ticket. If you're seeing it fail for a large number of people, a JIRA with specific items and times would be appreciated.
[12:20] Nal (nalates.urriah) I would still take an answer... but I bet no one knows.
[12:21] Aki Shichiroji While I still have some internal problems listing things, I have not had a failed delivery since switching to Direct Delivery.
[12:21] DrFran Babcock /me has had no problems with MP
[12:21] Rusalka Writer No problems here.
[12:21] Vincent Nacon MP works.... just that people aren't aware of "received" tab
[12:21] Braydon Randt nor here
[12:21] Geenz Spad don't mean to interrupt the current conversation, but regarding custom bones: bring it up at tomorrow's Content Creation Improvement meeting. I'll help organize a proposal, and on top of that we get a good number of fashion designers and similar that additional bones would impact. Agenda can be found here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
[12:21] Vincent Nacon most*
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) Nyx, would know who we talk to to get Geenz's Content Improvement added to the User Group List?
[12:22] Oz Linden no, we don't know
[12:23] Geenz Spad it's still technically an unofficial UG, so I'm not really sure if adding it to the list would be such a great idea :p
[12:23] Geenz Spad also hi Oz!
[12:23] Nyx Linden so if GM reads the transcript, you should file a support request for marketplace failures, it appears to be working for most people here.
[12:24] Nyx Linden hopefully we can hunt down whatever is causing issues for you.
[12:24] GM Nikolaidis thanks Nyx
[12:24] Nyx Linden next topic: "Is there a known fix for transparent textures not showing up as transparent unless highlighted? Aki Shichiroji 12:05, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:24] Motor Loon what?
[12:25] Nyx Linden I think I recall seeing a jira about this. Do the textures eventually load correctly if you zoom in on them / allow them to load to their full detail?
[12:25] Aki Shichiroji i'm seeing this everywhere with 3.3.4
[12:25] Aki Shichiroji no, i have to right click them
[12:25] Rusalka Writer 3.3.5 was very crashy at the Relay.
[12:25] Aki Shichiroji it shows up on HUDs as well as rezzed items.
[12:26] Nyx Linden is there a JIRA that these reports are being filed under?
[12:26] Braydon Randt yes ... its round and sits under your desk
[12:26] Aki Shichiroji it reminds me of this from last meeting: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29200?
[12:26] JIRA-helper [#VWR-29200] Prim faces bearing textures with alpha channels are appearing opaque until selected. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:26] Motor Loon If havent seen that... but I see lots of other cases where content dont "update" unless I rightclick it... like vehicles leaving drawdistance and ends up "hanging" at a simedge until I rightclick them... or parts of mesh not being visibile until I've rightclicked the object
[12:26] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) there is also another issue with that viewer line.. see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29156
[12:26] JIRA-helper [#VWR-29156] Attachments are not rendered or only partially rendered until right-clicked. - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:28] Nyx Linden If you're seeing this issue, please add your hardware information to the jira or send it to me (help > about second life)
[12:28] Aki Shichiroji ok, thanks
[12:28] Oz Linden Squirrely ... please be specific when referring to versions - never just say 'latest' - that is a relative value that essentially means nothing at all
[12:28] Nyx Linden I'm guessing this sounds machine-specific rather than content-specific?
[12:29] Aki Shichiroji hmm
[12:29] Aki Shichiroji i'll try updating my drivers.
[12:29] Rusalka Writer Haven't seen it on a Mac.
[12:29] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood) Oz, I updated it with each and every version I tested it with
[12:30] Nyx Linden could be a driver issue, could be a specific setup doesn't play nicely with some recent change that we might be able to fix. The more information we have, the easier it will be for us to reproduce and hunt it down
[12:30] Aki Shichiroji ok. I've posted my current info. will post if a driver update helps any.
[12:31] Nyx Linden thanks, appreciate the reports!
[12:31] Nyx Linden next topic: "Are morph targets back on the table? Stickman 12:06, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:31] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) I have an issue of purple texture by latest nvidia beta driver..
[12:32] Vincent Nacon when people are gonna stop calling it Morph?
[12:32] Geenz Spad oh dear
[12:33] Nyx Linden please clarify what feature of morphs you're referring to and what you mean by "back on the table"
[12:34] Geenz Spad /me thinks he knows the kind of morph targets Stickman is talking about :P
[12:34] Geenz Spad ah, that
[12:35] Vincent Nacon morph is a term for object that change shapes into different shape that doesn't share same number of polygons
[12:35] Nyx Linden custom user-modifyable morph targets for uploaded meshes? or adding new morphs to the default avatar mesh?
[12:35] Vincent Nacon like from triangle to Circle.... but doing it in 3D is mathematical nightmare
[12:36] Geenz Spad my two cents: that's still being discussed by the community, and there's still several topics to be touched upon for that. Nothing's been mentioned as to if LL will actually work on it, or accept any viewer changes relating to them. In other words, bring it up at tomorrow's CCI meeting.
[12:36] Geenz Spad (since it'll most definitely be discussed there regardless!)
[12:37] Nyx Linden that's not something we're actively developing at this time. Its an interesting topic for discussion, but I don't have any official updates for that.
[12:37] Oz Linden and it can't yet go "back on the table" since it has not yet been "on the table" :-)
[12:38] Racush (racush.cheeky) it was back in the beta days of mesh
[12:38] Geenz Spad no one knows anything about if morph targets will ever be accepted or not
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me remembers Runitai saying that...alot.
[12:38] Vincent Nacon I believe the term you're looking for is "Tween Animation"
[12:38] Geenz Spad Vincent: he's looking for "Morph Targets"
[12:38] Vincent Nacon not morph
[12:40] Nyx Linden long story short is that it is not actively under development. Skeletal animation is definitely more efficient from a purely technical perspective, but we're currently tied up in other projects.
[12:41] Nyx Linden which brings us to our next (last?) topic: "Are custom skeletons still in the works? How about object/non-avatar skeleton and animations to go along with the pathfinding project? Stickman 12:06, 16 July 2012 (PDT)"
[12:42] Nyx Linden indeed, but for clarity, need to release the pathfinding project before thinking about post-pathfinding projects :)
[12:42] Nyx Linden aka not currently under active development, though appreciate the request to keep it in our potential project list.
[12:43] DrFran Babcock /me must head into First Life, dang.
[12:43] Vincent Nacon then stop having meeting here? cause that's pretty much all they're gonna ask till the release
[12:43] Rusalka Writer Aloha!
[12:44] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I'd have to agree with that one Stickman.
[12:44] Motor Loon Think we just need a easier way to "flip thru" prim faces for mesh "animation"
[12:44] Geenz Spad but of course the pathfinding project is (presumably) nearing completion, so it's a bit silly to change gears at this point :p
[12:45] Nyx Linden one more topic snuck in!
[12:45] Nal (nalates.urriah) :)
[12:45] Nyx Linden last topic: "Any news on the new Avatar Bake process? Nalates Urriah"
[12:46] Oz Linden yes - there's going to be one
[12:46] Racush (racush.cheeky) oh?
[12:46] Geenz Spad classy
[12:46] Gramma Fiddlesticks *grins
[12:46] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol... that is not news
[12:46] Oz Linden /me could not resist
[12:46] Nyx Linden tiny robots are on the case :)
[12:46] Geenz Spad stay Classy Oz~
[12:47] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol
[12:47] Nal (nalates.urriah) I hear tiny robots are really fast...
[12:47] Nyx Linden #relevant: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465
[12:48] Nyx Linden nothing beyond that to report this week, but its under development
[12:49] Geenz Spad in otherwords, stuff's happening! fantastic (maybe) stuff to make things better! (maybe) :P
[12:49] Motor Loon well, enough going on with PF on RC
[12:49] Aki Shichiroji my, you sure know how to sell things, Geenz ;)
[12:49] Rusalka Writer Render lowest impact avis first! Go, mesh!
[12:50] Geenz Spad (maybe)
[12:50] Nyx Linden I think that wraps up for this week, thanks everyone for coming out!
[12:50] Aki Shichiroji Thanks for the meeting
[12:50] Rusalka Writer Zowie.
[12:50] Geenz Spad 'later Nyx
[12:50] Rusalka Writer Mahalo!
[12:50] Nyx Linden I'll have the transcript up in a bit, feel free to add more topics for next week (same time/location)
[12:50] Vincent Nacon you know... all these years long.... I'm still kinda surprised LL didn't even bother getting Unreal Engine 3 for SL yet
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Bye Nyx
[12:51] Aki Shichiroji yes, just wiggle your knows and snap your fingers :P
[12:51] Nyx Linden I look forward to seeing a demo next meeting Stickman :D
[12:51] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) See you next week.
[12:51] Aki Shichiroji *nose
[12:51] Braydon Randt now now ... lets not be negative ...... maintenance and stability are important ... for the best looking model t in the car lot
[12:51] Geenz Spad brb, writing SL protocol library in unrealscript
[12:51] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me laughs at Bray.
[12:52] Geenz Spad oh the technical hurdles would be daunting
[12:52] Vincent Nacon I said it because they're both (UE3 and SL) are modules
[12:52] Rusalka Writer Mesh meeting... why can't I quit you?
[12:52] Vincent Nacon and streaming would be better
[12:52] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol Rusalka
[12:53] Rusalka Writer Nyx is screaming in his office.
[12:53] Gramma Fiddlesticks or digging in his penny saving jar?
[12:53] Kaine Lowenstark /me thought he wore pants
[12:53] Aki Shichiroji Take care all :) See you next week!
[12:54] Rusalka Writer You can run but you can't hide!
[12:54] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Bye Aki :)
[12:54] Nyx Linden until next week! Thanks all