Mesh/Archive/2012-11-19

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Agenda

  1. Status of Mesh Deformer
  2. Have you considered to implement custom object centers? Davido Chrome
  3. What is the "default shape" for Mesh Deformer ? Is it defined somewhere ? Is it different from the SL default character ? Is there a difference between male and female Mesh Deformer default shape ? Gaia Clary
  4. Any estimate when Materials will come to Second Life ? Gaia Clary
  5. Preview textures in the mesh importer. Pandora Wrigglesworth
  6. Any status on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29339 ? I know it was mentioned as close to being ready, but that was a couple months ago. Any idea when this will make it to developer beta? Aki Shichiroji
  7. Upload of rigged meshes with textures: Is that expected to work or not ?
  8. We want custom riggs! We want custom riggs! Everybody with me! We want custom riggs!" Davido Chrome
  9. At present, if your mesh is small, you can barely see in previewer; you can't zoom or even center it; do we need to file a jira to get addressed? [ele newell]

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday November 19, 2012

[12:02] Nyx Linden greetings all
[12:02] Gramma Fiddlesticks Hi Nyx
[12:02] Chubbalicious Hi
[12:02] Theresa Tennyson Hi Nyx!
[12:02] Drongle McMahon Hello
[12:02] Cierra Anatine Greetings
[12:02] Lares Carter Hi Nyx
[12:02] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello, Nyx.
[12:02] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Howdy folks
[12:03] Nyx Linden not many topics this week, feel free to add more: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:04] Nyx Linden first topic: "Status of Mesh Deformer"
[12:05] Tillie Ariantho I guess you wont get many topics till mesh deformer and materials are done. :P
[12:05] Nyx Linden I don't personally have any updates on this project - Oz would have the latest status on this
[12:06] Theresa Tennyson I know Oz is looking for clothing items to use for testing.
[12:06] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'm writing an update based on a number of events over the weekend...
[12:06] Nyx Linden those are indeed both projects content creators are looking forward to :)
[12:07] Gaia Clary we need some input too :) for the tools ...
[12:08] Nyx Linden topic 2: "Have you considered to implement custom object centers? Davido Chrome"
[12:08] Nyx Linden ah custom pivot points
[12:08] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) No, not the same thing.
[12:08] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) But that would be nice too.
[12:08] Drongle McMahon What's the difference?
[12:09] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) It would make my day.
[12:09] Prep Linden Alve whats the diff?
[12:09] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) I am referring to how you never lnow exactly if your phyics shape will end up aligned as you think it will.
[12:10] Drongle McMahon Ah... you mean defining the origin for each LOD/physics mesh?
[12:10] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) The Mesh center always get defined as the exact center of the the meshes extreme measurements.
[12:10] Pandora Wrigglesworth That has more to do with auto-scaling of LODs than the object center.
[12:10] Drongle McMahon That's more complicated than a single offset, i guess.
[12:10] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Yes.
[12:11] Tillie Ariantho Is that similar to my "clicking through mesh objects" problem I mentioned last week?
[12:11] Nyx Linden and being able to visualize in tools when there is a significant size difference between lods/physics shapes exactly how things would end up aligned if they are not auto-scaled/auto-centered
[12:12] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) But when you add a phyics shape, you might not want it defined that way, as you might not want it to cover smal extruderances and the like.
[12:12] Tillie Ariantho Cause if you have a defined center you could just have a bounding box you could click to not click through the mesh and hit the floor by accident. ^^
[12:12] Drongle McMahon Up to the author getting them right, I guess.
[12:14] Nyx Linden it makes sense for a feature request, would be easy for a simple implementation, but more tricky to get the tools to be able to show the correct information/overlays
[12:14] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Nyx, yes, exactly. If I make a tree, with a crown, I might just make a physics shape for the tree stem and the maybe the branches. But since the tree has a crown, The physics shape wouldn't align correctly.
[12:14] Pandora Wrigglesworth Why not just make the crown a separate mesh object with physics none?
[12:15] Nyx Linden that's one possible workaround for this specific case but not necessarily always the ideal solution
[12:15] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Pandora, that's just an example. There are other implementations where that might not be so easy.
[12:16] Pandora Wrigglesworth Perhaps the best solution would be to add an option to the mesh uploader that turns off the auto-scaling functionality.
[12:16] Pandora Wrigglesworth Default to on.
[12:16] Nyx Linden would want to at least warn people if they were about to upload a mesh with a significantly different sized physics shape
[12:17] Pandora Wrigglesworth Certainly.
[12:17] Drongle McMahon ... and auto-centering?
[12:17] Nyx Linden at best, be able to visualize what parts of the mesh would be missing
[12:17] Nyx Linden or offset
[12:17] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Also with LODs, for the best results you might not want the center to be autocalculated like that. You might want to be able to make an offset for the object not to appear to shrink (more than perspective would make it seem) when zooming out.)
[12:17] Pandora Wrigglesworth And it should also warn if the origin of the object is outside of the apparent bounds of the object.
[12:17] Drongle McMahon There's already an overlayed display...
[12:18] Nyx Linden if people could coordinate on a requirements doc, and then have someone post it to JIRA that would be super-helpful. I'll try to let some people know internally that this is a request
[12:18] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) The point is, that physics shapes and LOD models end up where they end up. Only workaround is to put arbitrary empty vertices so that the models extreme align...
[12:19] Drongle McMahon It's been a request for a very long time, I think.
[12:19] Pandora Wrigglesworth Yes, it's awkward to add wasted polys to make something pivot where you want it to, especially since that poly MUST be in the physics mesh. It's definitely worth exploring.
[12:19] Nyx Linden yeah I'll search for relevant jiras
[12:20] Nyx Linden next topic: "What is the "default shape" for Mesh Deformer ? Is it defined somewhere ? Is it different from the SL default character ? Is there a difference between male and female Mesh Deformer default shape ? Gaia Clary"
[12:20] Ramona Criss Hello
[12:20] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I'm curious what the actual default position of the hands are for the deformer.
[12:20] Tillie Ariantho Hello :)
[12:21] Gaia Clary is the mesh deformer dependent on the hand position ?
[12:21] Nyx Linden I believe Oz has been looking into getting a better definition of what the actual "default" is. There are a few different versions out there currently that vary in subtle ways
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) Karl pretty much defined it... all the details I have on that are here: http://blog.nalates.net/?p=7381&page=2
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) I tested the differences between files and shapes exported via Phoenix 1185 OBJ files.
[12:23] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would be nice if the deformer could have it's own bone structures. Then maybe you could have it work with custom Mesh shape avatars?
[12:23] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Right, but the hands don't seem to match the file that he pointed to. Of course, the hand deformation is a bit borked in general.
[12:23] Nyx Linden we'd have to have a way of transferring custom bones/skeletons to other users and have them understand/interpret them. Its a good ask, but separate from the basic deformer.
[12:23] Nal (nalates.urriah) Karl seemed pretty clear that hand and feet deformation was not ever going to work well.
[12:24] Gaia Clary Nalates, are the zipped avatar files specially made for the Mesh Deformer ?
[12:24] Theresa Tennyson My understanding is currently the deformer has an option for you to define the shape the mesh was based on and the deformer will use that information.
[12:24] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me nods. "I remember that he said that."
[12:25] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) So, it CAN be compatibable with custom avatars?
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) Gaia, no. I don't think so. Domino and your avatar files are so extemely close to the OBJ files I exported that it should make no difference. When I asked Kark he agreed it should make no diff.
[12:25] Nal (nalates.urriah) So, I use your avatar 263 files for most of my work,
[12:25] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Must be hard to make it handle an avatar with a different number and layout of faces though?
[12:26] Gaia Clary ok, so is the default settings of our avatar versions what the mesh deformer likes ?
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Davido: It can to a degree. But, facial, hand and feet morphs are a bit unrelaible.
[12:26] Theresa Tennyson The deformer always uses a set of standard SL shape values as a basis to deform FROM.
[12:26] Gaia Clary well.... there is a problem with that :(
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *unreliable
[12:26] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) I allways thought it would be like the "Shrinkwrap" modifier in Blender.
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson The default settings are the easiest to work with.
[12:27] Nal (nalates.urriah) Gaia, as best I can tell your 263 is the best out there.
[12:27] Gaia Clary the "default avatar" as it is used in SL uses values which are not compatible to the SL sliders values ...
[12:27] Gaia Clary Nal, ok....
[12:27] Gaia Clary so lets believe it works then :)
[12:27] Gaia Clary until it breaks
[12:27] Nyx Linden yes our default values are....interesting :)
[12:27] Nal (nalates.urriah) If you look in the article you can see where I compared the OBJ file and your 263. I have a .blend with all the various avatars from various files. I used ti for comparisons.
[12:27] Gaia Clary lol
[12:28] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Heya El :)
[12:28] Gaia Clary Nal, i will look into your article after the meeting, thanks!
[12:28] Eleanora Newell hihi
[12:28] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Tiny parade....yay
[12:28] Nal (nalates.urriah) yw
[12:28] Nyx Linden alright, sounds like we're wrapping up on that topic, moving on?
[12:28] Nal (nalates.urriah) Gaia let me know if you find a mistake...
[12:29] Nal (nalates.urriah) yep
[12:29] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) That deformer seems hard. I can seem to figure out how it would work. But several different ways it wouldn't work...
[12:29] Nyx Linden next topic: "Any estimate when Materials will come to Second Life ? Gaia Clary"
[12:29] Nyx Linden Nope!
[12:29] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) later
[12:29] Nyx Linden sometime after the present, don't have any schedule estimates for you
[12:30] Gaia Clary is there an opinion if materials will EVER get to Second life ?
[12:30] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) some good news about the materials project, even though the build floater is getting somewhat of an overhaul, no functionality will be removed
[12:30] Aki Shichiroji it seemed like there was some movement server-side, from what I heard
[12:30] Aki Shichiroji at least on the beta grid.
[12:30] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yea, I was happy to read that.
[12:30] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) materials is still actively in development
[12:30] Nyx Linden it is not stalled/stopped, it will happen, but I don't have an estimate on what the timeframe is
[12:30] Gaia Clary ok
[12:30] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) yes, some regions on the beta grid were updated to handle storing the additional info
[12:31] Aki Shichiroji but there aren't any viewer builds we can dl to try, currently, right?
[12:31] Exotix (inara.pey) No viewer builds as yet
[12:32] Nyx Linden we'll let you know when we have builds ready :)
[12:32] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) I thought there was
[12:32] Nyx Linden and source
[12:32] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Added a topic.
[12:32] Nyx Linden next topic: "Any status on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29339 ? I know it was mentioned as close to being ready, but that was a couple months ago. Any idea when this will make it to developer beta? Aki Shichiroji"
[12:33] Prep Linden Code is done - I'll submit a merge request as soon as I can. Not sure when it'll make into the dev beta however (might be a bit).
[12:33] Aki Shichiroji Thnx.
[12:33] Aki Shichiroji it would be helpful for animation previews with mesh avatars
[12:33] Nyx Linden the merge queue is a bit backed up due to the troubles with the last release cycle
[12:33] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) 3.4.2 beta just got merged to release today, and viewer-dev got merged to v-beta as well
[12:34] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) so now, viewer dev is the same as viewer beta
[12:34] Nyx Linden ah shoot missed a topic, apologies for out of order topics
[12:34] Nyx Linden next topic: "Preview textures in the mesh importer. Pandora Wrigglesworth"
[12:34] Prep Linden Previewing of textures in the mesh importer should work..If it's not file a bug.
[12:35] Prep Linden There was an issue where rigged meshes were not displaying their textures...but that should be working (merge in w/the pathfinding code).
[12:35] Gaia Clary well...
[12:35] Gaia Clary Prep since when is that fixed ?
[12:35] Prep Linden Since the pathfinding roll out.
[12:35] Pandora Wrigglesworth No, what I meant was a placeholder grid texture applied to any mesh preview which does not have a texture embedded in the DAE.
[12:35] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hmmm
[12:36] Prep Linden ahh...pandora: yeah, didn't address that.
[12:36] Pandora Wrigglesworth It would be helpful in making sure your UV didn't get mangled by the DAE creation.
[12:36] Pandora Wrigglesworth Heck, even the default wood texture would be helpful.
[12:36] Nyx Linden would be an interesting tweak that might help
[12:37] Prep Linden +1
[12:37] Nal (nalates.urriah) +1
[12:37] Gaia Clary heh, it also wold be interesting to get reported if a mesh has a UV at all...
[12:37] Nyx Linden if you could file a JIRA for that, it would be appreciated :)
[12:37] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) It's easy to forget one of the LODs...
[12:38] Gaia Clary of course you can have a ,mesh without uv layout
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That would be clear if they displayed a UV tile texture on the model by default.
[12:38] Nal (nalates.urriah) I agree with Gaia. But, I do some prelim work and imports before I make my UV...
[12:38] Pandora Wrigglesworth Sometimes your UV can be mangled after using the mesh to burn a texture and you don't notice until you upload.
[12:38] Drongle McMahon There's no default UV .... it uses uninitialised data = random.
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me nods
[12:39] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Burn a texture?
[12:39] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Is that the same as bake?
[12:39] Drongle McMahon I did a jira about that years ago, but it was closed.
[12:39] Nyx Linden only if you leave it in too long davido
[12:39] Pandora Wrigglesworth Yes, I meant bake
[12:39] Nal (nalates.urriah) Burn is a bake with attitude...
[12:39] Djehan Kidd ty:)
[12:39] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) XD
[12:39] Gaia Clary Asha, i am not sure if that would be clear for everybody. we get a few questions along "why cant i texturise my imported mesh ..." its always because they forgot to unwrap :(
[12:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol
[12:40] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Good point, Gaia.
[12:40] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Some might not realize what the visuals mean.
[12:40] Nyx Linden semi-related, next topic: "Upload of rigged meshes with textures: Is that expected to work or not?"
[12:40] Prep Linden Preview textures for a rigged mesh in the importer should work.
[12:40] Eleanora Newell added a topic
[12:40] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Would it be possible to have a warning if you happened to forget to unwrap one of the custom LODs?
[12:41] Prep Linden if the preview isn't working , please file a bug.
[12:41] Gaia Clary Prep, you wrote that the issue with textures for rigged meshes is solved. my last test is about 4 weeks ago.
[12:41] Gaia Clary and it failed.
[12:41] Prep Linden gaia: should of been merged when we did the pathfinding viewer rollout.
[12:41] Nyx Linden Gaia, do try the recently released viewer that got out of beta in the past week or two and let us know if that fixes it
[12:41] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) /me nods.
[12:41] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Oh well.
[12:42] Gaia Clary so i have to file my third bug report for the same topic :)
[12:42] Gaia Clary or shall i reopne the last one again ?
[12:42] Nyx Linden appreciated Gaia :)
[12:42] Nal (nalates.urriah) Does the Blender Collada export put UV data in the file if there is no unwrap in Blinder?
[12:42] Prep Linden consider it a hat trick ;-)
[12:42] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) You mean the texture preview for rigged mesh is updated in the latest main viewer?
[12:42] Nyx Linden if it reproduces on the latest version, then it is still a bug
[12:42] Gaia Clary no, if there is no unwrap, there is no UV data.
[12:42] Eleanora Newell right
[12:42] Gaia Clary i try after the meeting.
[12:43] Nyx Linden next topic: "We want custom riggs! We want custom riggs! Everybody with me! We want custom riggs!" Davido Chrome"
[12:43] Eleanora Newell nyx, you saw i added a topic?
[12:43] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) haha
[12:43] Ramona Criss lol
[12:44] Nyx Linden I hear you, deformer and materials systems first though :)
[12:44] Tillie Ariantho X-D
[12:44] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes please
[12:44] Nyx Linden Elanora - I don't see it, though I'm refreshing a few times
[12:45] Djehan Kidd oh yes deformer, geez
[12:45] Drongle McMahon Gaia, Nal ... if there's no UV map in the collada, the uploader uses uninitialised data, giving random UV maps.
[12:45] Aki Shichiroji Whiterabbit: you can do it on either, as far as I can tell.
[12:45] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) :D
[12:45] Pandora Wrigglesworth How could custom rigs possibly be compatible with existing animation data?
[12:46] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) A custom rig would probably need custom animations.
[12:46] Chubbalicious for sure
[12:46] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I doubt LL plans to support relative animation systems.
[12:46] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) Pandora, it wouldn't. You'd need to seel your custom rigged avatars with custom animations.
[12:47] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Well, and for NPCC characters, working mechanics, etc.
[12:47] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *NPC
[12:47] Djehan Kidd mesh deformer was working perfectly for full avatars for me, just saying in case, but was a couple months back
[12:47] Pandora Wrigglesworth I would be worried about that. Bone animation is one of the most CPU expensive things you can do in 3D rendering.
[12:47] Djehan Kidd this could already be used very much for shapes
[12:48] Djehan Kidd no need of garments for this I only mean full shapes
[12:48] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Well, the LL dev working on it said bone animation would be much better than morph animation for efficency.
[12:48] Djehan Kidd full avatar figures
[12:49] Eleanora Newell added again, i see it now
[12:49] Nyx Linden morphs are more computationally heavy than skeletal animation
[12:49] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Right, that's what Runitai(sp?) said before.
[12:49] Nyx Linden thanks Eleanora
[12:49] Pandora Wrigglesworth Morphs?
[12:49] Nyx Linden next topic: "At present, if your mesh is small, you can barely see in previewer; you can't zoom or even center it; do we need to file a jira to get addressed? [ele newell]"
[12:50] Nyx Linden I seem to recall a jira on this, but if it doesn't exist it should!
[12:50] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) easy way to remember how to spell his name: run-it-ai
[12:50] Pandora Wrigglesworth Yeah, and if you choose to scale your mesh in the uploader, it usually gets a dramatic offset so you can't find it.
[12:50] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) He's an AI?
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) lol.... thanks Tank
[12:50] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) „ã°
[12:51] Eleanora Newell i really dislike the new jira system *mutters*
[12:52] Nyx Linden having better zooming and some way to determine scale sounds helpful :)
[12:52] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Amen El
[12:52] Gaia Clary Maybe just provide an automatic zoom that always fills the preview window independent from the mesh size ?
[12:52] Drongle McMahon How can you dislike it when you can't see it?
[12:53] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) /me snorts
[12:53] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol @ Drongle
[12:53] G. McAuley (gee.mcauley) lol
[12:53] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)#8730; Oh well.
[12:42] Gaia Clary so i have to file my third bug report for the same topic :)
[12:42] Gaia Clary or shall i reopne the last one again ?
[12:42] Nyx Linden appreciated Gaia :)
[12:42] Nal (nalates.urriah) Does the Blender Collada export put UV data in the file if there is no unwrap in Blinder?
[12:42] Prep Linden consider it a hat trick ;-)
[[#msg_179|[1th=100% style="padding:0 6px;"|Thanks for the meeting, Nyx.
[12:55] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-800
[12:55] Eleanora Newell i have a serious connection problem with traceroutes stallling at above.net and can't figure out how to get the jira filed, but i know there is one on this, but can't see it, was told by someone who had an url to it...maestro is handling it, how can this be an effective way of working with jiras? *mutter, grumble*
[12:55] Prep Linden have good week folks. later!
[12:55] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) have a great thanks giving to all those in the US „ã°
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thanks Lindens
[12:55] Aki Shichiroji Thanks for the meeting
[12:55] D3m0n D3c0stA (damiano.decosta) likewise Tank
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx Tank
[12:55] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you Nyx.
[12:55] Gramma Fiddlesticks Thanks Lindens.
[12:56] Eleanora Newell thanks, nyx
[12:56] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Bye all :)
[12:56] Exotix (inara.pey) Thanks, All.
[12:56] Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks (tankmaster.finesmith) thanks for your time and imput, nyx, prep, and vir
[12:56] Eleanora Newell thanks, prep
[12:56] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) And Prep.
[12:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks and thanks Tank too. =)
[12:56] Nyx Linden have a great turkey day for those in the USA, for the rest of you happy third week in November
[12:56] Ramona Criss all and ty
[12:56] Bazz Fazz (vir.linden) Bye!
[12:56] Exotix (inara.pey) Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.
[12:56] Eleanora Newell thanks, vir
[12:56] Djehan Kidd lol
[12:56] Ramona Criss •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[12:56] Aki Shichiroji Take care, all :)
[12:56] ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome) You celebrate Turkey in the US?!
[12:56] Djehan Kidd byebye
[12:56] Gramma Fiddlesticks byebye everyone. Got to get to work now!