Open Source Meeting/2008-09-04

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  • [14:01] Soft Linden: Featuring: The head of Q!
  • [14:01] Nyx Linden: hey soft, Q
  • [14:01] Nyx Linden: and rob!
  • [14:01] Georgette Whitfield: Hey Rob
  • [14:01] Carjay McGinnis: the sustainees
  • [14:01] Rob Linden: hi folks
  • [14:02] Liana Linden: sends Michelle2 love for making an agenda.
  • [14:02] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
  • [14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Heya Soft, Q, Rob :)
  • [14:02] Rob Linden: reminder: transcript will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com
  • [14:03] Rob Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
  • [14:03] Rob Linden: (wow....long agenda)
  • [14:03] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, I was shock... pleased
  • [14:03] Carjay McGinnis: good work
  • [14:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: thinks mememe again though
  • [14:03] Rob Linden: let's get started
  • [14:03] Rob Linden: LLMozlib, Webkit, *ping* . Xulrunner 1.9 is a disaster, any other even hacky ways to render a webpage to a memory buffer? Michelle2 Zenovka 10:27, 4 September 2008 (PDT)
  • [14:03] Carjay McGinnis: nice work, Michelle :)
  • [14:04] Michelle2 Zenovka: I guess there is no new webkit news
  • [14:04] Rob Linden: re: webkit. had some setbacks that we're not in a good place to talk about, but we're getting back to a good place
  • [14:04] Carjay McGinnis: hm, that was last weeks statement, too, IIRC
  • [14:04] Michelle2 Zenovka: ok so something should still happen at some point
  • [14:05] Rob Linden: yeah, something should happen at some point. I'll just say that it's the nature of this particular beast that I can't be more specific
  • [14:05] Michelle2 Zenovka: xulrunner is an increasing disaster
  • [14:05] Jacek Antonelli: waves to Aimee
  • [14:05] Aimee Trescothick: mexican waves back :)
  • [14:06] Carjay McGinnis: with a mexican hat wavelet?
  • [14:06] Aimee Trescothick:  :D
  • [14:06] Rob Linden: the Google Chrome release addes that much more weight to the case for switching to Webkit
  • [14:06] Michelle2 Zenovka: any other susgustions on how to work around the issue more shorter term...
  • [14:07] Rob Linden: (since there's going to be an even larger Windows dev community on the tech)
  • [14:07] Michelle2 Zenovka: if i could render a gtk widget then it would be easy
  • [14:07] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea
  • [14:07] Soft Linden: Michelle2, does the viewer still work well without mozilla, search aside?
  • [14:08] Michelle2 Zenovka: i've not actualy built without mozilla. I've got a stubbed empty llmozlib2 i was using today for latest builds
  • [14:08] Michelle2 Zenovka: so i'm not actualy testing the no LL_MOZLIB code paths
  • [14:08] Rob Linden: Michelle2: honestly, the best thing to do if you're getting antsy is to start work on Webkit integration yourself. I promise to let you know if/when you're duplicating effort
  • [14:08] Soft Linden: I believe it should still compile without mozilla support. Until webkit or another option is ready, it might make sense to set it aside. We could find out when the old search will become unavailable... if it won't be for a while, it wouldn't be so bad.
  • [14:08] Carjay McGinnis: hm, last time I accidentally tried, it didn't even compile
  • [14:09] Carjay McGinnis: but that was the release/trunk branch
  • [14:09] Michelle2 Zenovka: should probably check that out
  • [14:09] Carjay McGinnis: well, #defines are evil
  • [14:09] Michelle2 Zenovka: Rob, i've started looking
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: will look into publishing some prototype code we have
  • [14:10] Michelle2 Zenovka: that would be cool
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: k....let's move o
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: on
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: OpenAL, haven't pinged this for a while. Not sure there is much to discuss but i've updated the patches for 1.21 compatibility and Tofu says he's imported it to an internal branch. Michelle2 Zenovka 10:27, 4 September 2008 (PDT)
  • [14:10] Rob Linden: (the "n" key on this keyboard only works half the time)
  • [14:11] Michelle2 Zenovka: Tofu's statment sounded good
  • [14:11] Rob Linden: really anoying :)
  • [14:11] Carjay McGinnis: yes, that sounded promising
  • [14:11] Soft Linden: Yup, openAL just became Tofu's main project. I'd ping right on the issue if you'd liike a status update.
  • [14:11] Carjay McGinnis: so there is hope
  • [14:12] Soft Linden: If you like, I can see about publishing the branch where that integration's going on.
  • [14:12] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea cool!
  • [14:12] Jacek Antonelli: (Yay! Tofu \o/)
  • [14:12] Q Linden: He's pretty excited about it...should see good progress.
  • [14:12] Soft Linden: Tofu = Linux Stud! None better!
  • [14:12] Carjay McGinnis: he's not the only one who's excited about this :)
  • [14:13] Soft Linden: (Well. Maybe Linus and Michelle2. Not neccessarily in that order, either...)
  • [14:13] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
  • [14:13] Rob Linden: we all are pretty stoked about the OpenAL work. this is going to be nice
  • [14:13] Rob Linden: moving on: Cmake build issues,(Michelle2 Zenovka 10:27, 4 September 2008 (PDT)) i was going to bring these up but BoS seems to have jumped on them all and I am not sure there is much to discuss now :-
  • [14:13] Michelle2 Zenovka: yay for Bos as well ;-)
  • [14:13] Liana Linden: BTW, I'll be sending an email to sldev later today --
  • [14:14] Liana Linden: We've got Bill Humphries of Kitware/CMake joining us next week.
  • [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: hm nice
  • [14:14] Soft Linden: For the meeting, Liana?
  • [14:14] Michelle2 Zenovka: we've been a pain in his backside ;-)
  • [14:14] Liana Linden: Ack, sorry "Bill Hoffman"
  • [14:14] Carjay McGinnis: hehe, nice
  • [14:15] Liana Linden: Yes, he and bos/sardonyx will join us at this meeting time and place for a "meet the expert" chat
  • [14:15] Georgette Whitfield: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [14:15] Rob Linden: Liana: we're doing that in voice, right?
  • [14:15] Liana Linden: Yes.
  • [14:15] Squirrel Wood: Strike!
  • [14:16] Liana Linden: So, even if you don't plan to talk, come with active voice so you can hear the conversation.
  • [14:16] Michelle2 Zenovka: need to get that working for Sat anyway or i won;t hear a thing
  • [14:16] Liana Linden: Yep, that too, M2. ;-)
  • [14:17] Carjay McGinnis: now, if it wouldn't tend to disconnect all the time...
  • [14:17] Jacek Antonelli: is in the same boat with Carjay there. Oh well.
  • [14:17] Rob Linden: back on the topic of the cmake/build patches: I think that might be good for a patch bundle
  • [14:17] Soft Linden: Michelle, if you're doing it with a 64-bit Linux host, be sure to work on it in advance. I think there's a howto on the wiki, but I'm not sure it's got Debian information in it.
  • [14:17] Soft Linden: And it's pretty hairy.
  • [14:18] Rob Linden: meta issue for all patch bundles: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9010
  • [14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: i'll probbaly be in a 32bit chroot
  • [14:18] Soft Linden: thumbsup
  • [14:19] Soft Linden: This is the same bundling discussed last week. There's a good summary in Rob's email, quoted in the issue for any who weren't here
  • [14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: the cmake stuff with patches is mostly grouped anyway so easy to bundle, but in this case i think BoS has run of with the fixes anyway so it might be too late for a bundle
  • [14:20] Carjay McGinnis: ah, nice
  • [14:20] Soft Linden: In a nutshell, we're looking to pack related issues into "sprints" that help get the set through QA more efficiently, and help a developer leverage the time they spend getting familiar with a section of the viewer code. Should help us get the net import rate way up.
  • [14:20] Aimee Trescothick: waned to ask about the patch bundling, what should we do about adding patches once a bundle has been picked up and being processed?
  • [14:21] Soft Linden: Actually, I'd still link it up as one, Michelle. Once he gets a bit of momentum, he might not notice that the pile grew if this helps others find good candidates. :)
  • [14:21] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea sure
  • [14:21] Rob Linden: +1 Soft
  • [14:21] Aimee Trescothick: i.e. I've added a couple of joystick bits while Tofu was going through them, which he picked up ok I think
  • [14:21] Squirrel Wood: glod sarts! ^^
  • [14:22] Rob Linden: Aimee: I'm going to guess we'll want multiple issues in the long run
  • [14:22] Soft Linden: We can create a new bundle meta issue when old ones get capped off. The developer should let folks know if they're winding up work on one and don't want more additions.
  • [14:22] Aimee Trescothick: ok, that's what I was thinking, but wanted to check :)
  • [14:23] Rob Linden: I think Tofu is pretty close to being done on this one, but you should double check with him
  • [14:23] Aimee Trescothick: nods
  • [14:23] Rob Linden: my understanding is that he's got the request into QA, but slipped at least one more in there while waiting for them to take it on.
  • [14:24] Rob Linden: should we move on?
  • [14:24] Rob Linden: Linden's new Sustaining Engineering group, sounds cool, any Lindens want to add any more? Michelle2 Zenovka 10:27, 4 September 2008 (PDT)
  • [14:25] Squirrel Wood: mayhaps including a creation date in the meta issue title may help with telling bundles apart ?
  • [14:25] Q Linden: What do you need /want us to add?
  • [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: just though it was a good discussion point
  • [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: normaly everyone here as an opinoon ;-)
  • [14:25] Squirrel Wood: It needs glod sarts! ^^
  • [14:25] Q Linden: Ok, well, I think we're starting to get some traction now. Our weekly meetings seem to be running long.
  • [14:25] Michelle2 Zenovka: its certainly sounds like a good plan
  • [14:26] Carjay McGinnis: I liked the summary on sldev
  • [14:26] Soft Linden: Squirrel - it's a thought, or the dev could add the date/branch name to the title when they take a set on.
  • [14:26] Rob Linden: Q's probably talked out after his mail to sldev, but this is certainly a good opportnity for questions from the audience
  • [14:26] Squirrel Wood: Aye. Whichever helps ^^
  • [14:26] Rob Linden: going once....
  • [14:26] Rob Linden: twice
  • [14:27] Rob Linden: three times a laaaaaady!
  • [14:27] Q Linden: bids, too late
  • [14:27] Jacek Antonelli: heh
  • [14:27] Rob Linden: er...moving on
  • [14:27] Rob Linden: SLCC (Seems relevant, whos going etc etc. Michelle2 Zenovka 10:27, 4 September 2008 (PDT)
  • [14:27] Carjay McGinnis: all questions were completely answered by the mail :)
  • [14:28] Rob Linden: I'm flying to Tampa tomorrow
  • [14:28] Liana Linden: Questions about Hippo Awards?
  • [14:28] Rob Linden: Tess, CG, Periapse, Phoenix are going
  • [14:29] Georgette Whitfield: I am hoping to attend inworld
  • [14:29] Michelle2 Zenovka: Whats the format for us who will be attending via SL, are you streaming into SL
  • [14:29] Georgette Whitfield: I know that SLEDcc are
  • [14:29] Liana Linden: Conference technology willing, the in-world gathering will listen to the SLCC stream and hear Rob making the announcement.
  • [14:30] Rob Linden: we're going to try what we did last year, which is to use my laptop to link up the two
  • [14:30] Georgette Whitfield: The SLCC site seems to be down right now, I couldn't check the schedule earlier
  • [14:30] Michelle2 Zenovka: its been down for days, Gigs is on the case trying to ping some one who can fix it
  • [14:30] Georgette Whitfield: Ah ok
  • [14:31] Rob Linden: our simulcast worked amazingly well last year, but it was cobbled together at the last minute, so we're prepared to have two separate events
  • [14:31] Liana Linden: What he said.
  • [14:31] Rob Linden: I'm pretty sure the vast majority of nominees aren't goign to be at SLCC (unfortunately, I'd like to meet you all), but that means SL is where the real action is likely to be
  • [14:31] Liana Linden: Georgette, did your comment above amount to an RSVP to the gathering I'm hosting here?
  • [14:32] Michelle2 Zenovka: would love to fly over
  • [14:32] Georgette Whitfield: Oh yes thanks Liana
  • [14:32] Liana Linden: Noted.
  • [14:33] Carjay McGinnis: RSVP? Oh right
  • [14:33] Jacek Antonelli: (wb Aimee)
  • [14:33] Aimee Trescothick: oops
  • [14:33] Rob Linden: any other SLCC stuff?
  • [14:33] Rob Linden: k.....next up: License of JIRA patches - are they automatically GPL when submitted? Jacek Antonelli 14:06, 4 September 2008 (PDT)
  • [14:34] Rob Linden: well, hmm....good question
  • [14:35] Squirrel Wood: I guess that one needs clarification
  • [14:35] Jacek Antonelli: My interpretation was that the contribution agreement didn't make them GPL (until LL turns around and releases the GPL viewer with the patch in it) -- but since the patches are made from GPL source (presumably)...?
  • [14:35] Rob Linden: yeah, that's the technicality at play here
  • [14:36] Q Linden: I guess the question would be to turn it around: if it's NOT GPL, what would the license be?
  • [14:36] Michelle2 Zenovka: Whats the copyright? is that passed to linden labs? i guessed it was
  • [14:36] Soft Linden: The contributor agreement grants us the right, but it doesn't automatically re-release under GPL. This may be something for which we'd have to get legal to sign off on new wording.
  • [14:36] Jacek Antonelli: The alternative would be Unlicensed / all rights reserved, I think
  • [14:37] Jacek Antonelli: With LL and the patch author as joint copyright owners
  • [14:37] Soft Linden: As it stands, I'd ping the contributors asking them for permission if you want to be safe.
  • [14:37] Rob Linden: well, IANAL, but here's my interpretation: the patch gets submitted, which means the contributor has granted Linden Lab joint ownership
  • [14:38] Jacek Antonelli: Soft: yeah, that's what I was planning. I wanted to check though, in case there are some I can't get ahold of, for example
  • [14:38] Rob Linden: either party can license that patch however they want. since we don't explicitly say what the rights are on jira.secondlife.com, it's not explicitly GPL
  • [14:38] Squirrel Wood: Isn't there something in the GPL that any derivatives of the GPL'd code must be released under the GPL as well ?
  • [14:38] Michelle2 Zenovka: in that case the published patches should then be made avaiable under the GPL but that needs clarifying and putting in writing
  • [14:38] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, Squirrel
  • [14:38] Rob Linden: anyway, that's a good topic to send to licensing@lindenlab.com
  • [14:39] Jacek Antonelli: Okay Rob, will do that, and I'll try to ping the contributors as well
  • [14:39] Rob Linden: well, long agenda, but we managed to blast through it
  • [14:39] Jacek Antonelli: applauds :D
  • [14:40] Carjay McGinnis: heyhey
  • [14:40] Jacek Antonelli: I wish we could go through an agenda that fast at my work :D
  • [14:40] Squirrel Wood: Wonderflu or something!
  • [14:40] Rob Linden: we could take a look at this list: http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=11240
  • [14:41] Rob Linden: we don't need to march through it in order, but is there anything on that list that anyone here filed they'd like to ping us on?
  • [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: 8139 is annoying
  • [14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: *VWR
  • [14:41] Soft Linden: We should really start including these in the internal patch triage. Right now we only see things with "patch attached."
  • [14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: but its probably a SVC anyway
  • [14:42] Soft Linden: But many of these would just take a few seconds to knock out, by the same people at that meeting.
  • [14:42] Carjay McGinnis: hm, what's VWR-9016?
  • [14:42] Rob Linden: good point Soft
  • [14:42] Carjay McGinnis: viewer code incomplete?
  • [14:43] Soft Linden: This looks like someone who didn't know about cmake.
  • [14:43] Rob Linden: 8139....I'm guessing we're kinda stuck with that oe
  • [14:43] Soft Linden: They're commenting on the tiny library size.
  • [14:43] Carjay McGinnis: ah, right
  • [14:43] Carjay McGinnis: 180 times smaller
  • [14:43] Aimee Trescothick: answer is there IS new magic
  • [14:43] Aimee Trescothick: it's called cmake :)
  • [14:43] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
  • [14:44] Soft Linden: I'll keep this query up, knock out some of the obvious confusion or outdated ones after this meeting.
  • [14:44] Carjay McGinnis: well, are the instructions on the wiki up to date?
  • [14:44] Carjay McGinnis: wonder why he got confused by this
  • [14:44] Carjay McGinnis: 160 times smaller only
  • [14:44] Rob Linden: VWR-9016: need more info?
  • [14:45] Soft Linden: I'll link to cmake build instructions on 9016
  • [14:45] Aimee Trescothick: in that the reporter needs more info?
  • [14:45] Opensource Obscure: i don't think all cmake info on the wiki are ok and up-to-date
  • [14:45] Aimee Trescothick:  :)
  • [14:45] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
  • [14:45] Soft Linden: No, the wiki still needs some love on the cmake build instructions.
  • [14:45] Michelle2 Zenovka: there is no tar.gz release with cmake yet either
  • [14:45] Soft Linden: Michelle2's edits are mostly complete, but that needs to be merged with some of the friendly handholding on where to get appropriate python versions, etc
  • [14:46] Soft Linden: Michelle2, I just dropped the first one of those actually
  • [14:46] Michelle2 Zenovka: missed that
  • [14:46] Squirrel Wood: So basically the pro instructions are complete and just need the optional baby steps added for the rest of the code gurus ?
  • [14:46] Rob Linden: here's what I'm putting as a comment: "The process for changed for 1.21, so the library bundle will be smaller, and the build instructions changed as well. Make sure you follow the build instructions at:"
  • [14:46] Soft Linden: I think I flagged it as "minor edit" since I'm not trying to rally people toward the 1.21 source -just- yet. RC0 still has some pretty major issues.
  • [14:46] Carjay McGinnis: "why python is good for you"
  • [14:47] Rob Linden: ....and then I need the right URL. is Michelle's page the best?
  • [14:47] Michelle2 Zenovka: it hasn't crashed on me yet
  • [14:47] Soft Linden: Rob, sure!
  • [14:47] Carjay McGinnis: is there any other?
  • [14:47] Rob Linden: (if so, we should merge it with the "official" page if there is one)
  • [14:47] Aimee Trescothick: inserts a "building" in Rob's first sentence
  • [14:47] Soft Linden: Yes. Bos made one as well. But it's not as complete as Michelle2's/
  • [14:47] Carjay McGinnis: ah, ok
  • [14:48] Opensource Obscure: maybe we should wait until the page is properly done
  • [14:48] Michelle2 Zenovka: certainly put a comment though
  • [14:48] Soft Linden: cmake was still changing enough that we were waiting for 1.21 until giving that a massive overhaul. And that's about here now.
  • [14:48] Michelle2 Zenovka: my page needs a "non" dev to give it an overhall
  • [14:48] Nyx Linden: a more visible page might attract people to complete it faster - if the current page is that out of date, it should be replaced
  • [14:50] Soft Linden: Actually, come to think of it - the first cmake instructions may have been reverted. A cmake Linden replaced the non-cmake build instructions a few months prematurely.
  • [14:50] Carjay McGinnis: Michelle: hm, do you think a lot of "non" devs try to build the viewer?
  • [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: i guess not, may be some one not so close to the code, who wnot skip "obvious" to me steps
  • [14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: i've actualy got to finish of my cmake flags page as well
  • [14:51] Carjay McGinnis: yes, guess a lot of people are "casual" code compiler
  • [14:51] Aimee Trescothick: I've met a few people recently that are trying as their first step to graduating to "Real" programming from LSL
  • [14:51] Carjay McGinnis: those who don't want to go through 10 pages of instructions, but just build a working viewer
  • [14:52] Soft Linden: A *lot* of the build help pings I get are from people who are trying to use the viewer to learn C/C++.
  • [14:52] Jacek Antonelli: would recommend dropping them into a tiger pit as a less painful way to get started :D
  • [14:52] Soft Linden: Jacek++ :)
  • [14:52] Carjay McGinnis: sense of achievement and stuff
  • [14:52] Aimee Trescothick: lol
  • [14:52] Q Linden: "Snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?"
  • [14:52] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
  • [14:52] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
  • [14:52] Carjay McGinnis: well, it's gotten much better
  • [14:53] Carjay McGinnis: most I met were stumped tyring to build with VS Express
  • [14:53] Carjay McGinnis: debug libraries not fitting/present and stuff
  • [14:53] Soft Linden: We've actually had a few good patches from first-timers, mind. Even if it sounds crazy and ambitious, you can't beat a developer with an angry itch.
  • [14:53] Carjay McGinnis: all Windowsers
  • [14:53] Rob Linden: I'm going to guess we can resolve/close VWR-2871
  • [14:53] Rob Linden: "Implement CMake for building the viewer"
  • [14:53] Michelle2 Zenovka: apart from vstool.exe everything was working on express
  • [14:54] Carjay McGinnis: yes, but a lot of people try to build a debug version to - well - debug
  • [14:54] Rob Linden: there is a open subtask, but that can be converted into its own thing
  • [14:54] Soft Linden: Rob, yeah. the only open issue isn't really a cmake issue on that.
  • [14:54] Carjay McGinnis: and then they get caught into the DLL dependency hell
  • [14:54] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea
  • [14:54] Michelle2 Zenovka: ok need to add that info9 to the instructions
  • [14:55] Soft Linden: Q - did Shiny devs use Debug builds much/at all?
  • [14:55] Michelle2 Zenovka: may be VSTool.exe can spit out an express warning as well with a little info
  • [14:55] Nyx Linden: primarily Release with debug info
  • [14:55] Q Linden: yeah, debug tends to be too slow to actually use
  • [14:56] Soft Linden: It's maintained pretty well server-side. I'm wondering how far from running the Debug build is. Last time I tried it was non-stop GL asserts.
  • [14:56] Rob Linden: okee dokee....I need to head out just a little early, but thanks everyone (and don't let me stop you)
  • [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: hm, I only run debug builds under Linux
  • [14:56] Soft Linden: How well does it run there, Carjay?
  • [14:56] Carjay McGinnis: the release build didn't offer a lot of speed up
  • [14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: i don't thuink it has a performance hit on linux
  • [14:56] Q Linden: see ya rob
  • [14:57] Carjay McGinnis: but I noticed some difference with debug builds on Windows, I suspect the STL but not sure
  • [14:57] Jacek Antonelli: Take care Rob