Open Source Meeting/2009-09-03

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???
[14:00] Squirrel Wood: Hello Rob!
[14:01] Rob Linden: hi folks
[14:01] Economic Core: aand now I go grab some more caffeine.
[14:01] Kerry Giha: Hello Rob
[14:01] Twisted Laws: hi Rob
[14:01] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi rob
[14:02] Squirrel Wood: Aaaaaagenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda (Aaaaaagenda is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda)
[14:02] Mealea Ying: Hi everyone
[14:02] Rob Linden: oops...looks like it wasn't cleared from last week
[14:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi is back too.
[14:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Rob & Merov.
[14:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 50% of VS 2005 Express downloaded.
[14:03] Economic Core: back
[14:04] Merov Linden: hi guys
[14:04] Rob Linden: so, I just threw a few things in the agenda just now
[14:04] Rob Linden: first thing: SNOW-215
[#SNOW-215] OGP Interop login/teleport
[14:05] Rob Linden: as mentioned on the list, I'm looking for more eyes on this patch before committing it.
[14:05] Merov Linden: loooong patch...
[14:05] Pixel Gausman: yes, so the OGP patch is big. and needs eyes on it. I'm working on a test plan <blush> sorry for not including that initially
[14:06] Pixel Gausman: i'm usually in #opensl and happy to answer questions there.
[14:06] Rob Linden: no worries...we haven't been religous about asking for them, but this one is intrusive enough that it seems wise
[14:06] Economic Core: oh wait, this isn't a bug triage in general. /me fixes sign...
[14:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: any chance of breaking it down to components?
[14:06] Twisted Laws: it'd be the same as the linden logon/tp/etc test plan, right?
[14:07] Pixel Gausman: if you are testing OGP mode, robla, vaak is err ummm... a easily excitable
[14:07] Pixel Gausman: ThickBrick: breaking the test plan down into components?
[14:07] Thickbrick Sleaford: I was thinking about breaking the patch down
[14:07] Merov Linden: there's a new UI panel in there so likely some new test steps/scenarios
[14:08] Pixel Gausman: Thick: i wish@
[14:08] Twisted Laws: true
[14:08] Pixel Gausman: wish!
[14:08] Pixel Gausman: Merov: yes, the UI changes a smidge, but fairly isolated
[14:08] Rob Linden: Pixel: I'm less concerned with testing the OGP aspects of this as I am making sure the patch doesn't break use on the production grid. Both are important, but production grid bugs will make us slip 1.2
[14:08] Merov Linden: also URI of a grid that supports said OGP 100% (since vaak is "excitable")
[14:09] Pixel Gausman: Rob: totally true. It's the non-OGP that needs a bucket of testing
[14:09] Pixel Gausman: The OGP code is going to be changing as the spec evolves
[14:10] Rob Linden: how different are things in the non-OGP case?
[14:10] Pixel Gausman: Merov: well, IBM is open sourcing an agent domain implementation in a few days, we'll need to find someone that wants to host it, hopefully an OpenSimmie will
[14:11] Morgaine Dinova: Back. WOOT Pixel, great stuff, it's the start of something! Well done :-))
[14:11] Economic Core: If I had more than 768k DSL, I'd host it.
[14:11] Pixel Gausman: Rob: non-OGP mode changes: it's intended not to have different non-OGP functionality, other than the following (off the top of my head):
[14:12] Pixel Gausman: the login panel moves the Start Location combobox slightly
[14:13] Pixel Gausman: some of the debug info that goes into SecondLife.log might have gotten tagged as "Wearables" or "Inventory" where it was previously just llinfos
[14:13] Pixel Gausman: thx Morgaine (thx Morgaine)
[14:13] Sahkolihaa Contepomi mumbles something about VS 2005 throwing an error while installing. :|
[14:13] Pixel Gausman: mmm, i think everything else should be the same
[14:14] Pixel Gausman: in testing non-OGP mode, people do lots of testing on Inventory ( and yes, that will be in my test plan)
[14:14] Rob Linden: ok...that's good
[14:15] Morgaine Dinova: Darn, I wish the OGP stuff could be made pluggable. It's going to be changing a lot, and it's quite a pain to have a new viewer every time.
[14:15] Mojito Sorbet: That is a general comment about lots of things.
[14:16] Pixel Gausman: Morgaine: it will get better, i hope
[14:16] Economic Core: Maybe we should start working towards pluggable architecture?
[14:16] Pixel Gausman: i'm definitely learning where the pain points are in changing the viewer
[14:16] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, pleeeze
[14:16] Mojito Sorbet: I am having toruble just getting the whole environment set up on Vista to be able to edit the damn thing
[14:17] Rob Linden: let's move on before we go too far repeating the pluggable architecture discussion
[14:17] Rob Linden: :)
[14:17] Vincent Nacon: I'm wondering when will Linden Lab stop support open source? Because legal matter over copybot
[14:17] Economic Core: It's even worse trying to setup a standalone build on debian for Meerkat
[14:17] Mealea Ying: wouldent thaat nessitate upgrading a slew of plugins? or would there be an AutoUpgrade Plugin?
[14:17] Mojito Sorbet: Thunderbird seems to manage it
[14:17] Economic Core: Vincent: The cat's already out of the bag, thwey can't really stop their OS viewer stuff
[14:17] Geneko Nemeth: What can be seen can be copied. You can't stop it ever, properitary software merely impede that from happening, but it will still be possible.
[14:17] Morgaine Dinova: True, Mojito. Although OGP is going to be changing for *years* (seriously), so this is pretty important. Even if the whole viewer isn't modular, this is one part that will cause eternal pain if it's not.
[14:18] Pixel Gausman: So any SNOW-215 questions come to mind, i'm suzyq in #opensl
[14:18] Pixel Gausman: in IRC (in IRC)
[14:18] Vincent Nacon: I agree but supporting open source only make it easier
[14:18] Economic Core: Not really
[14:18] Rob Linden: moving on, if you've been following the sldev-commits list, you've seen some activity on the Media Plugin stuff
[14:18] Economic Core: Copyb ot was made prior to the OSViewer
[14:18] Mealea Ying: thankyou Rob
[14:19] Melinda Latynina: it's not the open source that makes it easier but the OGP. please take copybot issues there?
[14:19] Aimee Trescothick: \o/
[14:19] Rob Linden: the exports get attributed to CG, but in fact, Merov is working on merging the Media Plugin stuff, with the ultimate goal of landing it in Snowglobe
[14:19] Vincent Nacon: nope, sorry, open source ned to be canceled in order to recode the server's data packet
[14:19] Economic Core: ...
[14:19] Economic Core wallbangs
[14:20] Pixel Gausman: go Merov!
[14:20] Merov Linden: thanks Pixel
[14:20] Morgaine Dinova: Vincent, perhaps this world is not the one you were looking for.
[14:20] Pixel Gausman: Really excited to see the Mediaplugin stuff
[14:20] Techwolf Lupindo: I think Vincent is looking for Blue Marble.
[14:20] Merov Linden: I'm in the throes in merging media plugin in my local snowglone repo
[14:20] Vincent Nacon: maybe not but companies are starting to wonder where the leaks are coming from
[14:21] Economic Core: Vincent, Copybot is completely independant of the Linden viewers, it's based on LibOMV, which was reverse-engineered prior to LL releasing the code to their viewer
[14:21] Morgaine Dinova sighs
[14:21] Mealea Ying: Im wondering where you are from
[14:21] Aimee Trescothick: can we stick to the agenda please
[14:21] Sahkolihaa Contepomi agrees with Aimee.
[14:21] Vincent Nacon: yes, meaning it's time to recode their data packet
[14:21] Mealea Ying shuts up and feeds not the trolls
[14:22] Morgaine Dinova puts away the troll snacks too
[14:22] Economic Core: Vincent, do a little more homework before cming here and complaining about stuff. Moving on.
[14:22] Rob Linden: the merge of the Media Plugin stuff is going to be pretty disruptive
[14:22] Pixel Gausman: Merov: when will the Media pluging be done being integrated?
[14:22] Twisted Laws: and you could just use the graphics layer in the computer under the viewer to catch everything
[14:22] Pixel Gausman: Rob: why disruptive?
[14:22] Rob Linden: Pixel: it touches a lot of code
[14:23] Merov Linden: I'm planning to integrate in an internal branch for the moment
[14:23] Merov Linden: so I'm not destabilizing the trunk
[14:23] Economic Core: Disruptive as in it'll cause a riot or because the code merging will be like Mars and Earth colliding?
[14:23] Vincent Nacon: ID and Raven has no problem with DLL branching to use their 3d engine from being taken
[14:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Mars and Earth colliding...haha, nice way to put it.
[14:23] Merov Linden: no, it's not *that* disruptive Ecinomic
[14:23] Rob Linden: Vincent: please stay on topic
[14:23] Pixel Gausman: it touches different code than my big blobby OGP thing, me thinks
[14:23] Techwolf Lupindo: No DLLs please.
[14:24] Merov Linden: I think soPixel
[14:24] Economic Core: DLLs?! On my Linux viewer?! *shudders* (DLLs?! On my Linux viewer?! * shudders *)
[14:24] Techwolf Lupindo: This is cross platform, not windows only that uses dlls.
[14:24] Morgaine Dinova: I think the word "disruptive" was unnecessarily dramatic. :-))) Sure, a lot of code will change, but that doesn't have to mean breakage. Needs much testing of course.
[14:24] Mojito Sorbet: The concept is portable.
[14:25] Merov Linden: the delicate part of the merge is that both LLMedia and http-texture (which is in SnowGlobe) made modif in similar parts (threads, texture rendering)
[14:25] Rob Linden: Morgaine: it's lots of changes under the hood, though
[14:25] Pixel Gausman: Merov: good point
[14:25] Economic Core: Sure, but that doesn't mean it's not doable.
[14:25] Merov Linden: it's not contradicting each other but the auto merge only goes so far
[14:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Tech, I think your mic is on.
[14:25] Merov Linden: i.e. not far at all
[14:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: Merov, this will include the improvemtns to ointeraction with the media-on-a-prim prims?
[14:26] Mojito Sorbet: Making the viewer modular has to happen at some point, to make these major additions easier.
[14:26] Mealea Ying: BlooKitty just bit it
[14:26] Merov Linden: Thickbrick : yeap (Thickbrick: yeap)
[14:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: great!
[14:26] Pixel Gausman: Thick: i think LLMedia even does Laundry and dirty dishes.
[14:26] Tiny Blue Kitty Head: All Go
[14:26] Economic Core: Well yeah, but it'll be a while before the code can be wrestled into a position where it is modular
[14:26] Pixel Gausman: it's seriously cool
[14:26] Merov Linden: Mojite: LLMEdia does include a plugin architecture
[14:27] Merov Linden: it's limited to media rendering true
[14:27] Aimee Trescothick: \o/\o/\o/
[14:27] Mojito Sorbet: And that is a great start
[14:27] Merov Linden: but it's a start
[14:27] Economic Core: Right now, everything is bound to the UI
[14:27] Morgaine Dinova: Rob, I crashed but caught your comment about log of things changing under the hood. kk
[14:27] Merov Linden: I'd certainly like us (SnowGlobe) to look into this and see where we could go with it
[14:28] Merov Linden: from a plugin architecture standpoint
[14:28] Merov Linden: didn't take long for Aimee to do something with it and generate loads of buzz :)
[14:28] Mealea Ying: Could something like Motioncapture data (bvh?) be used live as media?
[14:28] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[14:28] Mojito Sorbet: I am currently building an addon to add accessibility features. I can give you some ideas on the kind of things I need to get my hands on
[14:28] Economic Core: Would it be possible to ask if you could also work on separating the UI and the backend so that everything isn't shoved into the UI?
[14:29] Merov Linden: Mealea: Mocap! Ha! that's my pony :)
[14:29] Mealea Ying grins! (grins!)
[14:29] Economic Core: It's kind of difficult to make the UI scriptable when the backend and the UI are so tightly interfaced
[14:29] Pixel Gausman: Mojito: we have an alternative accessibility viewer for the blind.
[14:29] Mealea Ying likes Ponys
[14:29] Mojito Sorbet: Pixel, who is "we"??
[14:29] Economic Core: IBM?
[14:30] Pixel Gausman: we == IBM
[14:30] Pixel Gausman: yeah
[14:30] Mojito Sorbet: Funny the blind poeple I know are not aware of it
[14:30] Rob Linden: Economic: there's work underway to do some amount of separation there. we haven't published the code yet, but we're incrementally improving the modularity with each release
[14:30] Economic Core: good
[14:30] Economic Core: ty rob (ty rob)
[14:31] Economic Core: Mass extinction in progress o_O
[14:31] Morgaine Dinova: Pixel: is the IBM accessibility viewer for the blind derived from LL's GPL code?
[14:32] Merov Linden: pixel is offline morgaine
[14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, question overlapped with Pixel leaving
[14:32] Mojito Sorbet: I would kind of like to know about that, as that is what *I* am working on too
[14:33] Mm Alder: Mojito, try contacting Pixel on IRL
[14:33] Rob Linden: anything else we should talk about on the Media Plugin merge, or should we move on?
[14:34] Rob Linden: next topic: SNOW-93 (automatic translation)
[#SNOW-93] Automatic language translation of chat messages
[14:34] Mealea Ying: oh my
[14:34] Aimee Trescothick: http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/virtualworlds/
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Pixel may return since didn't say bye, although I might have missed it
[14:35] Kerry Giha: My experience with this technology can be a bit discouraging.
[14:35] Kerry Giha: It would be ok if it would also show the speech in the other language too
[14:35] Rob Linden: Kerry: with translation?
[14:35] Kerry Giha: yes
[14:35] Squirrel Wood: automatic translations are mostly only approximate
[14:35] Rob Linden: Kerry: it does show both languages
[14:35] Melinda Latynina: anything is better than nothing here
[14:35] Kerry Giha: sometimes it mixes stuff up and the meaning implied is all wrong
[14:35] Rob Linden: I've got the viewer with this enabled now
[14:36] Geneko Nemeth: It's good when the language are close like English and French, but something like French to Chinese would be a disaster.
[14:36] Merov Linden: Kerry: it's true but it helps when your English for instance is rusty
[14:36] Rob Linden: it's not perfect, but it's still pretty neat
[14:36] Mojito Sorbet: And typos really mess it up
[14:36] Mealea Ying: Kerry, the problem can be releived some by using very short sentences.... Asian languages however seem to translate poorly no mater what
[14:36] Kerry Giha: I found english to portugese pretty bad too
[14:36] Merov Linden: Mojito: true
[14:36] Mm Alder: Rob, how does it do with there-and-back translations. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." is the classic.
[14:37] Mealea Ying: typos dont help at all no
[14:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: http://www.translationparty.com/ (http://www.translationparty.com/)
[14:37] Squirrel Wood: the biggest problem is going to be typos...
[14:37] Rob Linden: the extension is using Google's translation service
[14:37] Mealea Ying: the meat is rotten but the vodka is good
[14:37] Kerry Giha: yea specially when lolcat is used.
[14:37] Rob Linden: so, it's going to be exactly as good as going to Google
[14:37] Zai Lynch: Best to keep sentence structures simple. No weird grammer stunts. then the results are understandable/interpretable in many cases
[14:37] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: WOn't that cause delays in chat messages, as someone has commented on in the JIRA?
[14:37] Melinda Latynina: why all the nit-picking? LL is saying that they'll be happy with an implementation that has big problems
[14:37] Meggan Faith: Speaking of typos, it would be really cool if there were spelling check as you type, like it is common in IM programs.
[14:37] Rob Linden: I've not noticed it
[14:37] Mojito Sorbet: The cultural iddioms do not translate at all
[14:37] Squirrel Wood: there are translation huds and the best result they give is more spam :p
[14:38] Merov Linden: in my experience, longer self consistent sentences work best
[14:38] Squirrel Wood: and gibberish.
[14:38] Mealea Ying: me too Merov
[14:38] Kerry Giha: That Aspell that Pidgin uses would be good as a spell checker in SL I think :)
[14:38] Rob Linden: so, those of you that can type something other than English, type something....
[14:38] Morgaine Dinova: You mean "sup bro" might not translate well to Chinese?
[14:38] Morgaine Dinova: ^_^
[14:38] Aimee Trescothick: VWR-5447 for spell check
[#VWR-5447] Add inline spell checker to text entry fields
[14:38] Squirrel Wood: but yes. If its built in that means less prims and scripts. ^^
[14:39] Merov Linden: now, if all English native speaker could learn the difference between "its" and "it's", that'd help :)
[14:39] Rob Linden: lol (lol)
[14:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh. (Heh.)
[14:39] Morgaine Dinova: haha (haha)
[14:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Don't count on that. :)
[14:39] Aimee Trescothick: looked into it before, best option for spell check I think is a library called "Enchant"
[14:39] Geneko Nemeth: ?,???????????????,???????????? (Well, of you can play something other than English, playing things that are not English bar.)
[14:39] Rob Linden: there/their is another fun one
[14:39] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: oO (oO)
[14:39] Kerry Giha: And people will always be wondering around
[14:39] Squirrel Wood: though if you ask me then it should be optional so that those who dislike it can opt to not have it shown.
[14:39] Mojito Sorbet: ????? (Hello)
[14:39] Geneko Nemeth: ??,???? (What, buddy?)
[14:40] Merov Linden is *not* using a SNOW-93 patched viewer right now...
[14:40] Rob Linden: Squirrel: it's totally optional
[14:40] Aimee Trescothick: which acts as an abstraction layer, allowing you to use Aspell, Hunspell, or whatever is available on the platform or works best for a particular language
[14:40] Teravus Ousley: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... :D
[14:40] Squirrel Wood: optional on the receiving end ?
[14:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: ???? ???? (Hello world)
[14:40] Sheet Spotter: The only French I know is... Voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir. :-) (The only French I know is ... Would you sleep with me tonight. :-))
[14:40] Kerry Giha: I think the language translation would be good if it showed both languages together like the attachments do
[14:41] Mealea Ying: I want it, I make typos constantly, but a translator built in would still be great
[14:41] Mojito Sorbet: There are plenty of translator HUDs. Putting it in the viewer would help with server load and HTTP activity.
[14:41] Kerry Giha: so you can pick out the verbs and see that the translation is different than what they ment
[14:41] Rob Linden: Sheet, it did that one perfectly :)
[14:41] Geneko Nemeth: I think anything going to 3rd parties are going to be risky....
[14:41] Meggan Faith: There are already more then enough risks and third parties involved.
[14:42] Mojito Sorbet: Watashi no kuruma wa akai desu
[14:42] Geneko Nemeth: Heh. (Heh.)
[14:42] Merov Linden: j'allai le dire... (I went to say ...)
[14:42] Morgaine Dinova: That's life, it's risky, nad most people die.
[14:42] Squirrel Wood: Volltext Übersetzung funktioniert leider nicht immer sehr gut :) (Full-text translation unfortunately does not always work very well:))
[14:42] Teravus Ousley: replace most, with all, and that sentence will be correct ?
[14:43] Melinda Latynina: like everything here, if the protocol is well designed and the 3rd parties abstracted and pluggable, then the risks are mitigated and we don't build more spagetti code
[14:43] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's...the first time I've seen you type like that, Squirrel.
[14:43] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[14:43] Rob Linden: regardless of the merits of the feature...there's still some tweaks we need to get it into Snowglobe
[14:43] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Any way we can translate British crap? I'm full of it, unfortunately. :)
[14:43] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I say things and most in the US have no clue what I've said. :P
[14:43] Rob Linden: I'm planning on separating out JsonCpp into an install.py library
[14:44] Mealea Ying: Sahkolihaa I cant even pronounce your name!
[14:44] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: My name is Finnish. :)
[14:44] Mealea Ying: I know
[14:44] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: "Koli" fits better. :P
[14:44] Mealea Ying: I love Finnish folk music
[14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Py? Don't like the sound of that, another Python dependency?
[14:45] Rob Linden: Morgaine: it's just the standard library bundling mechanism
[14:45] Merov Linden: not another, been there for quite a while
[14:45] Morgaine Dinova: kk (kk)
[14:46] Rob Linden: there's some other minor cleanup that's needed as well (e.g. getting the unit tests working on Mac and LInux)
[14:46] Rob Linden: the patch is reasonably Isolated
[14:46] Rob Linden: we should be able to get this into shape for inclusion before too long, though
[14:47] Rob Linden: not much more to talk about there, unless anyone has anything else to add
[14:48] Mealea Ying: I do (I)
[14:48] Rob Linden: Mealea: yes?
[14:48] Mealea Ying: Flexi Sculpts please Oh Please Oh Please!
[14:49] Mealea Ying grins (grins)
[14:49] Rob Linden: heh (heh)
[14:49] Mealea Ying: well I had to try, they are splendid
[14:50] Rob Linden: anything else we need to cover today?
[14:50] Aimee Trescothick: can I persuade someone with a Mac to review SNOW-42 for me? :)
[#SNOW-42] Harmless warnings building mac-updater
[14:50] Mm Alder: I'm looking for help on VWR-10924 if anyone is interested.
[#VWR-10924] Magical scripted HUD/UI
[14:51] Mojito Sorbet: : Does anyone run VS2005 to work on SnowGLobe on Windows Vista?
[14:51] Rob Linden: Aimee: I meant to reply on that. yeah, that seems like a reasonable change. we dropped Mac 10.3.9 support quite some time ago
[14:51] Aimee Trescothick nods
[14:51] Twisted Laws: i do Mojito
[14:51] Mealea Ying: Sai has a Mac
[14:51] Aimee Trescothick: just kinda bored of seeing those warnings lol
[14:51] Mojito Sorbet: Ok, just so I know it is possible.
[14:51] Teravus Ousley: I think he has a PowerPC mac
[14:52] Morgaine Dinova: Mm: that's interesting, UXIG shortly, we could discuss it there
[14:52] Mm Alder: OK Morgaine
[14:52] Aimee Trescothick: and started looking at making it work with the 10.6 framework now, so would be nice to get that cleaned up :D
[14:53] Mealea Ying: oooo! BloooKitty, I wanna go too
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[14:53] Rob Linden: Aimee: does the presense of the legacy stuff break 10.6?
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Everyone grab onto Mm
[14:54] Squirrel Wood: didn't apple decide to not support powerpc based systems on their latest os upgrade ?
[14:54] Aimee Trescothick: well, there's other stuff breaking 10.6 now anyway, I'm not sure if that breaks it too, I've been doing my 10.6 work post applying that patch
[14:54] Rob Linden: ah
[14:55] Teravus Ousley: Yes, Snow Lep dropped powerPC support
[14:56] Geneko Nemeth: Aww!
[14:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Sidenote, I just looked at SNOW-93, I think I will add that patch to the snowglobe-trunk gentoo overlay so gentoo users can check and test it out.
[14:57] Morgaine Dinova: Well I'm running Techwolf's gentoo overlay build permanent, so will be testing it
[14:57] Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf's build is a standalone
[14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Using the inverse meaning of "standalone" that we have here, haha
[14:58] Rob Linden: Mm: your stuff looks really interesting. I'm not sure just how the interactions well work with some of our latest code....there's some discussion about that at Linden Lab
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: One sould read the ebuild comments I have in there. LL has some strange logic.
[14:59] Mealea Ying: yah..... like limits on things...... /me shuts up again
[14:59] Mm Alder: Rob, I was afraid 2.0 might break it.
[15:00] Rob Linden: it's a pretty big patch, so it's inevitably going to run up against that type of problem
[15:00] Mm Alder: It would be nice if the viewer were open source :-)
[15:01] Rob Linden: thanks eveyrone for coming!
[15:01] Rob Linden: well, we're at the end of the hour
[15:01] Geneko Nemeth: Off to UXIG then!
[15:01] Mojito Sorbet: To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, any sufficiently obscure code is indistinguishable from closed-source
[15:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you rob.
[15:01] Aimee Trescothick: thanks Rob :)
[15:01] Mojito Sorbet: bye
[15:01] Sheet Spotter: Thank you for this hour!