Open Source Meeting/2010-06-17

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[14:02] Merov Linden: I want to get back to a point we have trunk synced with viewer-external so we can do interesting things
[14:03] Lestat Demain: technology options?
[14:04] Merov Linden: that being said, let's look at: #gid=0
[14:04] Lestat Demain: i mean now with paralell computing and cuda stuff the labs being left in the dust
[14:05] Merov Linden: there's still a collection of "easy" port at the bottom of that spreadsheet that I mysteriously missed last time
[14:05] Merov Linden: I've been working on them (currently stuck on SNOW-122 port)
[14:05] JIRA helper:
[14:05] Merov Linden: but I'd happily take any help
[14:06] Techwolf Lupindo: I'll going to be buzy for the next couple weeks.
[14:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: I noticed 2.1/2.0.2 has a new crash report lib linked in (that might or might not be relevant)
[14:06] Merov Linden: you are correct Thickbrick
[14:07] Merov Linden: 2.1 is implementing google breakpad
[14:07] Merov Linden: but it seemed that avoiding the crash logger altogether (as an option) is still an interesting feature
[14:08] Merov Linden: anyway, I'm blocked 'cause I'm learning about the new llcommon way of doing things (since it's a shared lib now)
[14:09] Merov Linden: I completely fail adding anything to that LLApp API... that's certainly starring in my face but I miss it... :/
[14:09] Merov Linden: I'm going to ask the dev directly
[14:10] Robin Cornelius: are you marking the functions for symbol export?
[14:10] Merov Linden: anyway, there are things to do and some ports have been assigned to some folks here (cough... cough...)
[14:11] Merov Linden: Robin: yes... or so I think... I'm clearly doing something wrong...
[14:11] Thickbrick Sleaford: this is about Aleric's patch from SNOW-713?
[14:11] JIRA helper:
[14:12] Robin Cornelius: it wasn't but its very related
[14:12] Merov Linden: That's for 1.4 Thickbrick
[14:12] Merov Linden: a port of this new llcommon shared thing
[14:12] Robin Cornelius: thats making llcommon shared on 1.4 so similar API pain
[14:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think that patch is basically a port of the relevant parts from 2.0 to 1.4, so it might help reading it
[14:13] Merov Linden: I did try that patch on Mac yesterday though and it fails to compile big time...
[14:13] Merov Linden: I left a message for Aleri in SNOW-596
[14:13] JIRA helper:
[14:14] Merov Linden: anyhow, on the "SG2.0 plan", I'd really appreciate some help on assigned bugs, especially from committers
[14:14] Merov Linden: I fee really alone on that one... :(
[14:14] Robin Cornelius: Sorry about that, i've had some other pressure on me to complete projects
[14:14] Merov Linden: s/fee/feel/
[14:15] Merov Linden: Aimee, do you think you'll have a chance to look at the port JIRA I assigned to you?
[14:15] Merov Linden gets the JIRA number...
[14:15] Aimee Linden: I try over the weekend
[14:16] Aimee Linden: kinda pushed with deadlines at the moment :(
[14:16] Merov Linden: SNOW-695
[14:16] JIRA helper:
[14:16] Robin Cornelius: brb
[14:17] Bronson Blackadder: that doesnt sound useful
[14:17] Opensource Obscure: don't pan then
[14:17] Aimee Linden: deadlines? no, those are never useful :)
[14:17] Bronson Blackadder: llol
[14:17] Merov Linden: Bronson: have you tried it in Snowglobe 1.x?
[14:17] Bronson Blackadder: panning?
[14:17] Merov Linden: I find it rather useful myself...
[14:17] Bronson Blackadder: no
[14:17] Merov Linden: yes
[14:18] Ardy Lay: I find the mini-map panning feature useful.
[14:18] Bronson Blackadder: I guess I just dont invision it in my head what it would be good for
[14:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: her comes the wizzard :p
[14:18] Bronson Blackadder: not raining on anyones parade or anything
[14:18] Jonathan Yap: Bronson, you can find where a show is if you arrive at a landing point and it is far away
[14:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: oh hey oz
[14:18] Latif Khalifa: hey Oz, nice landing ;)
[14:18] Merov Linden: hi Oz
[14:19] Oz Linden: hi ... sorry I'm late
[14:19] Bronson Blackadder: thats why I have my zoom on the minimap way out
[14:19] Thickbrick Sleaford: the main use I found for it is being able to set the minimap be offset of me, so I can see what ahead, not whats' behind.
[14:19] Aimee Linden: hoverboard, must be bio-fueled ... it's eating that plant
[14:19] Bronson Blackadder: if alot of people use it then its all good
[14:20] Merov Linden: Oz, we just talked about work to be done in 2.0
[14:20] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[14:20] Bronson Blackadder: never mind me lalalalalala meow
[14:20] Merov Linden: plan is: get it done ASAP!
[14:20] Thickbrick Sleaford: somewhat related: SNOW-586 is already in 1.4, but I left the 2.0 patch hanging because of criticsm of the UI. So now that I've fixed, I would like another review (mainly the UI issues, the rest is identical to 1.4)
[14:20] JIRA helper:
[14:20] Lestat Demain: i have a silly question that no-one at the lab has answered yet
[14:20] Bronson Blackadder: dont ask why teh sky is blue
[14:20] Merov Linden: that *is * a nice feature. Thanks Thickbrick :)
[14:21] Lestat Demain: do u guys work from a flowchart of any kind?
[14:21] Oz Linden: I don't understand the question?
[14:21] Merov Linden: short answer: no
[14:21] Merov Linden: something like MS Project I suppose
[14:22] Merov Linden: that's why you meant Lestat?
[14:22] Lestat Demain: what i do is compile client then disassemble it and a flowchart is created - i was wondering if anyone had an original as in design stage
[14:23] Merov Linden: oooo... I see... I saw some of those created with Doxygen on the viewer code base
[14:24] Ardy Lay: Call graph?
[14:24] Lestat Demain: thats part of it
[14:24] Merov Linden: some might still be available on the wiki somewhere (yes, call graphs)
[14:24] Thickbrick Sleaford: Robin's doxygen for 1.x is here:
[14:25] GOAT Firethorn: oh wow a large group today :)
[14:25] Lestat Demain: ida disassembler is what i use and then step thru the flowchart
[14:25] Merov Linden: does it give you valuable information in the code Lestat?
[14:26] Merov Linden: Examples?
[14:26] Merov Linden is all for better tools to grock the code
[14:26] SL Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
[14:26] Lestat Demain: oh yes u see what goes into the registers, what isnt cleaned up when the routine closes etc
[14:27] Lestat Demain: even displays the python stuff
[14:27] Merov Linden: interesting...
[14:27] Thickbrick Sleaford: this one?
[14:27] Lestat Demain: yes thats it
[14:27] Merov Linden: did it ever lead you to code fixes, changes?
[14:28] Merov Linden: on the viewer I mean
[14:29] Lestat Demain: not snowglobe but we do fix the holes the griefers use to kill us with in the sandboxes
[14:29] Twisted Laws: i've used it, its useful for understanding some really complex code... better understanding helps fix things
[14:29] Twisted Laws: but there are so many tools a person can't learn them all
[14:30] Merov Linden looks in the website... not a free tool it seems...
[14:30] Lestat Demain: well worth it tho
[14:30] Merov Linden: quite possible
[14:31] Merov Linden: someone wants to give it a run on Snowglobe and see if we get a usable graph?
[14:31] WolfPup Lowenhar: am i still here
[14:31] Twisted Laws: yes
[14:31] Merov Linden: would be nice to get one posted on the wiki (if the IDA license allows it...)
[14:32] Lestat Demain: which version snowglobe?
[14:32] Merov Linden: 2.0 :)
[14:32] Merov Linden gets a URL
[14:33] Lestat Demain: ok but its a 100+ mb file when its decompiled
[14:33] Lestat Demain: which is why i do sections
[14:33] Merov Linden: Lestat: use
[14:33] Lestat Demain: ok
[14:34] Merov Linden: I'm genuinely curious
[14:35] Merov Linden: you know how to create wiki pages Lestat, right?
[14:35] Merov Linden: so you can share your result
[14:36] Lestat Demain: ummm im more into programming and playing i dont do much webwise
[14:37] Merov Linden: are you on opensource-dev?
[14:37] Lestat Demain: no i attended this meet more out of curiossity than anything
[14:37] GOAT Firethorn: ^^
[14:38] lonetorus Habilis: creating a wiki page is pretty straight forward though
[14:38] Merov Linden: curiosity is a good thing :)
[14:38] Merov Linden: you can join here:
[14:38] Merov Linden: I'm sure your help on something like that will be very much appreciated
[14:38] Flight Band: All Go
[14:38] Oz Linden: Well, welcome... now you see how it works... you ask a question, we give you work to do :-)
[14:38] WolfPup Lowenhar: merov i poseted a coment to SNOW-708
[14:38] JIRA helper:
[14:38] GOAT Firethorn: lol
[14:38] Lestat Demain: lol ok
[14:39] Merov Linden checks WolfPup
[14:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: if you have patches for problem you found this way, that is welcome too...
[14:39] Merov Linden: 's comments
[14:39] Lestat Demain: long as im not booted for way out ideas :)
[14:39] Oz Linden: More than welcome
[14:40] Bronson Blackadder: naw dont worry about it
[14:40] Merov Linden: hmmm... interesting Wolfpup... thanks, I'll look into that
[14:40] Lestat Demain: drat ive taken ova again...back into background
[14:40] Bronson Blackadder: if a ignorant cat can say something like something doesnt sound usefull doesnt get booted
[14:40] Bronson Blackadder: then you're safe
[14:40] WolfPup Lowenhar: and that is as of this morning since there was an update to SVN server last night
[14:41] GOAT Firethorn: lol.
[14:41] Merov Linden: k
[14:41] SL Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon!
[14:41] Merov Linden: we've 20 in to go
[14:41] Merov Linden: Oz, is there an update on SL7B activities?
[14:41] Latif Khalifa: Oz, are you aware of Babbage's attemt at opensourcing bits of the backend mono infrastructure (UThreadInjector)?
[14:42] lonetorus Habilis: Kiosk: SL Open Source General Info whispers: Thank you! Your items will be delivered to you soon! <- does not deliver
[14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: WolfPup, that is after running scripts/ , or is it that that script fails?
[14:42] WolfPup Lowenhar: the script fails
[14:42] Lestat Demain: lol didnt he learn from the copybot experience?
[14:42] WolfPup Lowenhar: if you try to run it by its self
[14:42] Latif Khalifa: Lestat, what?
[14:43] Latif Khalifa: Lestat, here to spread some FUD? lol
[14:43] WolfPup Lowenhar: and / cmake i do not thing are trigering it right either
[14:43] Lestat Demain: if your old enuff u will have heard of the libssl and the copybot
[14:44] Latif Khalifa: Lestat, sorry, but if you had a clue you'd know that became before opensource client
[14:44] Oz Linden: sorry - I was distracted
[14:44] Lestat Demain: yeh and from that outsource it sounds like the same road under another name
[14:44] Oz Linden: Yes, I'm following/involved in that
[14:45] Latif Khalifa: there is an outside interest in that Oz, not SL related
[14:45] Latif Khalifa: i guess LL would really reap the benefits of opensourcing it
[14:45] Merov Linden: not SL related? mono related then?
[14:46] Latif Khalifa: Merov, yes, many people are interested in a nice working microthreading framework
[14:46] Oz Linden: There's not much update on SL7B. I'll put a teleport to the exhibit space up on the platform up the hill once the event is open
[14:46] Latif Khalifa: and LL's is limited to 1.0
[14:46] Latif Khalifa: opensource community could help get it up to speed with the latest and the greatest mono
[14:46] Oz Linden: It's being discussed... that's really all I can say until a decision has been made
[14:47] Jonathan Yap: Oz, this kiosk I am standing next to does not deliver anything -- in case you were going to have it as part of SL7B it needs some reprogramming first.
[14:47] lonetorus Habilis: what are the arguments against ?
[14:47] GOAT Firethorn: I'll do it :D
[14:48] GOAT Firethorn: I can prob rescript it
[14:48] Oz Linden: Hmm... what part of "that's all I can say" was ambiguous?
[14:48] Latif Khalifa: I hope descision is right. Nothing will show LL leadership comitment to the future of SL platfrom like continuining support to fixing the scripting engine. If that project is droped under the guise of resturcturing I'm afraid it will show the LL top doesn't belive in the SL platform's future
[14:48] lonetorus Habilis: why are things always so secret?
[14:49] Oz Linden: When you're running a multimillion dollar business, you won't need to ask
[14:49] Oz Linden: There are many discussion threads going on within the company
[14:50] Oz Linden: as you can imagine, there are significant changes that must follow from actions like the ones you've already heard about
[14:50] Oz Linden: I'm confident that the net impact on the open source community will be very positive, and expect to be able to say a lot more about that in the next few weeks
[14:51] Oz Linden: In the mean time, I'll have to beg your patience on some things
[14:51] lonetorus Habilis shuts up again, was just wondering
[14:51] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: one of the things that your predecessor Rob Linden stated very clearly (right here in the OSS meeting) was that Snowglobe would accept features that support VW interop. Today, Joshua announced that LL has reduced resources for the VWRAP effort. Where does that leave Snowglobe, in terms of supporting interop?
[14:52] Morgaine Dinova:
[14:53] Oz Linden: that announcement was about what LL could fund
[14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
[14:53] Oz Linden: not about what the open source community could do
[14:54] Morgaine Dinova: "Linden will continue to be engaged on efforts that directly align with business goals and current development needs" --- and LL controls Snowglobe commits.
[14:54] Oz Linden: the trick, of course, is that to the extent things require server changes...
[14:55] Merov Linden: SNOW-666 is open for anyone to propose a patch...
[14:55] JIRA helper:
[14:55] Morgaine Dinova: That's understood, nobody could realistically demand changes that require server support. But for Snowglobe changes that do not require server-side change?
[14:55] Bronson Blackadder: 666
[14:55] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[14:55] Bronson Blackadder: sorry
[14:55] GOAT Firethorn: ikr lol
[14:55] Merov Linden: we punted it only because Pixel said she won't have time to adapt her work to 2.0
[14:56] Oz Linden: Hmm.... tell you what... I'll give you and answer from Scott Lawrence and what I want to have... if you'll all agree to understand that Oz Linden and Linden Labs are not bound by it ...
[14:57] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: I'm more talking about things like enabling Snowglobe to function with features in other grids.
[14:58] Latif Khalifa: snowglobe devs were good in that respect morg
[14:58] Oz Linden: I want to get the code base and the development processes restructured such that there's an open body of code that's shared across all viewers and to some extent by the server
[14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: without such support, Snowglobe will get progressively marginalized as unusable in open grids.
[14:58] Latif Khalifa: snow-77 is great example of that
[14:58] JIRA helper:
[14:58] Oz Linden: and commits to that body of code would be carefully and cooperatively reviewed both by the community and by LL
[14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: good goal, /me nods
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: +1 latif, that was developed in open sim at the same time, good example of working together
[15:00] Oz Linden: and that the viewer architecture be evolved so that features and UI differences are easy to do while still using that body of common code
[15:00] Merov Linden 3pm PST... needs to run...
[15:00] Morgaine Dinova: But there is still an issue of principle that should be clarified --- whether Snowglobe is an SL-only viewer, or whether LL wishes it to embrace the features in other worlds as well.
[15:00] Jonathan Yap: Beta meeting starting now on Aditi
[15:01] Opensource Obscure: thanks Merov, Aimee, Oz
[15:01] WolfPup Lowenhar: tc lindens
[15:01] Opensource Obscure: bye everybody
[15:01] Bronson Blackadder: see you oz merov aimee
[15:01] Oz Linden: LL wants to encourage and support interop between different virtual worlds
[15:01] Lestat Demain: laterz :)
[15:01] Bronson Blackadder: sorry for ignorant comments
[15:02] Oz Linden: but is limited on the resources we can devote to that right now
[15:02] Lestat Demain: hey oz u from australia?
[15:02] Oz Linden: which is not to say that we would not accept contributions to that end as long as they preserve compatibility with SL
[15:03] Oz Linden: does that help?
[15:03] Latif Khalifa will watch closely development around the scripting fixes/improvemetns, if that is shot down, the future for SL will look bleak (imho)
[15:03] GOAT Firethorn: haha Bronson I didn't even notice you there XD Nice feral
[15:03] GOAT Firethorn: gah not feral
[15:03] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: yes, it helps very much. It goes without saying that any changes would preserve compatibility with SL :-))
[15:03] Oz Linden: Lestat: no... I'm from the US
[15:04] GOAT Firethorn: D: quadriped >.> not feral
[15:04] Lestat Demain: ah ok
[15:04] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[15:04] Oz Linden: I expect that you and I will spend lots of time on that set of issues, Morgaine, and I'm looking forward to it
[15:05] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
[15:05] Vista Questi: other metaverses are differen? aw.. If i could repopulate in other metaverses <sigh>
[15:05] Merov Linden: need to go guys
[15:05] Merov Linden: cheers
[15:05] GOAT Firethorn: bai :)
[15:05] Aimee Linden: yup, me too, bye!
[15:05] Thickbrick Sleaford: see you
[15:05] Latif Khalifa: bye aimee :)
[15:05] Vista Questi: oops, times up! lol
[15:05] Lestat Demain: but that means dll`s and major restructuring and plugins and ewwww
[15:05] GOAT Firethorn: lestat same :) nice AV
[15:06] Lestat Demain: oh fanx :)
[15:06] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: it would be sad if the open metaverse blooms and LL is not part of it, so what you said is at least partly encouraging. :-)

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