Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.11.04
|Prev 2011.11.01||Next 2011.11.08|
List of Speakers
|Aeon Voom||Alma Fiertze||Andrew Linden|
|Anu Daviau||Arawn Spitteler||Ardy Lay|
|Armano Xaris||Bancos Milestone||Blackbird Latte|
|Bri Hasp||Bunnie Mills||Chaos Mandelbrot|
|Davadean Madrigal||Deirdre Faulds||don Berithos|
|eleanora Scribe||Fancy Detector||Flip Idlemind|
|Fortnight Baxton||Gagi Binder||Giovanni Benazzi|
|Howdy Colter||Jane Fossett||Joanne Furlough|
|Joly John||Judy Dressler||Kelly Linden|
|kittensusie Landar||Laycee Deed||Layla Honi|
|LDeWell Hawker||Leon Qvetcher||Liisa Runo|
|Liv Leigh||lonetorus Habilis||Maggie Darwin|
|Marianne McCann||Nalates Urriah||Orca Flotta|
|Rael Ellisson||RegY Constantine||Rex Cronon|
|Robin Lobo||RoDen Kilian||Sahkolihaa Contepomi|
|Sandflea Lorefield||Scurvy Ragu||seaone Bunyip|
|Siana Gearz||Simon Linden||Sinshine Moorsider|
|smith Firehawk||SophieLauren Allen||TankMaster Finesmith|
|Techwolf Lupindo||Tig Spijkers||toni2103 Diesel|
|Toscha Vayandar||Trapez Breen||Vickie Maidstone|
|Vincent Nacon||Vola Le||Wesley Catesby|
[16:02] Kelly Linden: Hello RegY and Vickie and everyone else. :)
[16:02] Ardy Lay: STRESS TEST TIME! LETS US ALL IN! :-)
[16:02] Jane Fossett: Please all listen
[16:02] Liv Leigh: ty vincent... i assume you live on that seat there? ;)
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And Andrew for that matter.
[16:02] don Berithos: Quiet please
[16:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL @ the prims, Kelly. x3
[16:02] Vincent Nacon: Please don't even joke about "occupy" or any form of strike
[16:02] Maggie Darwin: Hi, Andrew!
[16:02] don Berithos: quiet please
[16:02] Vickie Maidstone: hi Andrew!!
[16:02] kittensusie Landar: FOR THE TIME BEING, ONE OF MY DEPUTIES CANNOT TP IN, SO BUNNY MILLS AND JANE FOSSETT ARE THE SAILORS DEPUTIES........
[16:02] Howdy Colter: GIVE EVERYBODY OUTSIDE THIS SIM TO WATCH - http://livestream.com/howdycol
[16:02] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone. Big crowd today.
[16:02] Vickie Maidstone: hi Simon!!
[16:03] Temba: hello Andrew LInden
[16:03] Orca Flotta: ooh we starting?+
[16:03] Andrew Linden: I think I know why.
[16:03] smith Firehawk: hello mr liden
[16:03] RegY Constantine: hiya Andrew
[16:03] smith Firehawk: linden
[16:03] Wesley Catesby: Hello, Andrew and Simon
[16:03] Davadean Madrigal: Hello Andrew
[16:03] kittensusie Landar: Hello Simon and Andrew
[16:03] Maggie Darwin: Sure is. More chiefs than indians, it seems,
[16:03] Bancos Milestone: Hello Andrew
[16:03] Aeon Voom: hello andrew and simon
[16:03] RegY Constantine: hi Simon
[16:03] Fortnight Baxton: I have Toscha among the crowd outside incase anyone there has a actual issue to bring up, and Sebastian and Purple are mine here.
[16:03] Fortnight Baxton: Aeon?
[16:03] Vola Le: a mi se me hace muy dificil leer un chat tan estirado
[16:03] Vola Le: my I find it very difficult to read as drawing a chat
[16:03] Judy Dressler: hello Andrew and Simon. Nice to see you.
[16:03] Joly John: showtime ^^
[16:03] Simon Linden: Folks ... there are a lot of people here ... welcome, and PLEASE think twice (or more) before chatting ... we need to keep this civilized and readable
[16:04] Vickie Maidstone: QUIUET PLEASE
[16:04] Davadean Madrigal: AMEN
[16:04] kittensusie Landar: Simon and Andrew, before we start the meeting properly can I say something ?
[16:04] toni2103 Diesel: ok
[16:04] Aeon Voom: that is our plan simon
[16:04] Andrew Linden: Ok I'll try to get the update for SVC-472 over first
[16:04] Simon Linden: Let's let Andrew run the show...
[16:04] Jane Fossett: Kitten and LDeWell speak for all sailorsw
[16:04] Andrew Linden: so that those who want to hear about just that, or who are only here to demonstrate support, can depart early should they choose to do so
[16:05] Aeon Voom: ME and Fortnight speak for the aviators
[16:05] kittensusie Landar: the sailors and aviators have agreed to have representatives speaking on their behalf, so we do not end up with everyone trying to talk over each other at the same time......
[16:05] Andrew Linden: Here's the info I've been able to get...
[16:05] Blackbird Latte: we just lost the pirate rep
[16:05] Fortnight Baxton: we know you got headaches enough to have hundreds of voices at once.
[16:06] Andrew Linden: The recent rash of region crossing problems appears to be related to the kernel upgrade that started in mid October
[16:06] kittensusie Landar: myself and Hawk will be speaking for the sailors
[16:06] Andrew Linden: and affects homestead regions more than regular regions
[16:06] TankMaster Finesmith: do to more regions on the same host server?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: there is a team working on trying to find a fix
[16:06] Temba: it effects the mainlands the most
[16:06] don Berithos: Quiet Quiet Quiet Let andrew speak
[16:06] smith Firehawk: i think ether sailor or flyers should speck forthem self
[16:07] Andrew Linden: At frist we thought we were suffering from this kernel bug:
[16:07] Laycee Deed: ask Andrew to shout so all of us can hear
[16:07] Andrew Linden: https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/11/25/467
[16:07] Andrew Linden: which has a patch:
[16:07] Andrew Linden: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/b39415b2731d7dec5e612d2d12595da82399eedf
[16:07] Temba: adrew can you please shout so every one can here?
[16:07] Andrew Linden: but we made that patch and it did not help
[16:08] Anu Daviau: evening
[16:08] Andrew Linden: btw, one of our devs can reproduce the problem, which will help us hunt for a fix
[16:08] Temba: you won't shout so every one can here?
[16:08] Temba: hear
[16:08] Aeon Voom: that is at least something.
[16:08] don Berithos: andrew can you shout
[16:08] Howdy Colter: I am broadcasting what he is saying on livestream.com/howdycol so others can hear
[16:08] Andrew Linden: and also hacking extra diagnostic info into some experimental kernels
[16:08] Andrew Linden: so now we are currently trying debian-lenny and debian-wheezy kernels
[16:09] Gagi Binder: hi Tig
[16:09] Andrew Linden: That is the current state of work on the *recent* problem.
[16:09] Joanne Furlough: Temba: andrew is at the center of the group. I'm at the edge and everyone in-sim is within chat range of me. I don't think he needs to shout
[16:09] Andrew Linden: Regarding region crossings in general...
[16:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Those are some old kernels, debian stable is squeeze now.
[16:09] Rex Cronon: hello. very hard toget here. is sim full?
[16:09] Temba: ok
[16:10] Andrew Linden: there is a project underway to make region crossings with vehicles more reliable
[16:10] Nalates Urriah: Sim and adjacent sims are full
[16:10] Aeon Voom: okay. and are there any plans on improving general crossings. any way to fix the crossing timeout which was ever so persistant?
[16:10] Andrew Linden: however that project is going to be delivered piecemeal
[16:10] Vickie Maidstone: quiet please, ANDREW has the floor
[16:10] Aeon Voom: which logged users no matter how few scripts they had worn
[16:10] Andrew Linden: since the first stages of it are some cleanup and re-architecture to make the later stages possible
[16:10] don Berithos: Listen please stop chatting over andrew he has the floor please say hello in im
[16:10] Andrew Linden: in fact, one of the fist stages is in the RC queue
[16:11] Andrew Linden: but we don't expect any improvements from that stage, it just lays the groundwork
[16:11] Aeon Voom: that sounds promising. Is there any time schedule on this project?
[16:11] Andrew Linden: I don't know the ETA on the improvement stages, but they are underway.
[16:11] Aeon Voom: he can read my mind
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Ok, last thing I have to offer on the region crossing issue...
[16:12] Andrew Linden: is that the dev who is working on the kernel patch suggested I put some regions up on some test hosts over the weekend to get more info
[16:12] Rex Cronon: sorry. if i bumped, or stepped on anybody
[16:12] Andrew Linden: so I'm looking for some people who have a neighborhood of homestead regions where boat or other vehicle races are done
[16:13] Aeon Voom: i do
[16:13] Sinshine Moorsider: I'd be happy to volunteer
[16:13] Aeon Voom: ditto
[16:13] Andrew Linden: who can volunteer them moved to some new hosts
[16:13] Sinshine Moorsider: 9 contiguous sailing sims, private estate
[16:13] Jane Fossett: North Sea is in!
[16:13] Fortnight Baxton: I'm not in a position to offer unfortunately.
[16:13] Vincent Nacon: he meant Sim Owners
[16:13] Temba: One of the things cuasing sim crossing issues is the lag amd performnce issues cuased by objects with bad scripting, mega prim over laps and mesh and out dated servers that can't handle the data loads
[16:13] kittensusie Landar: meneither :(
[16:13] Bancos Milestone: 23 regions 6 full the rest are homesteads
[16:13] Aeon Voom: i have 8 homesteads for aviation
[16:13] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I'm looking for contiguous hosts, and looking for Estate Owners who can volunteer.
[16:13] LDeWell Hawker: Andew... I am in position to offer you 22 adjacent sims directly for...sailing..
[16:13] Jane Fossett: make it a mix of different conditions grid wide :-)
[16:14] Sinshine Moorsider: do you mean moving the sims, or making copies of the sims?
[16:14] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure I want to move 22 hosts, but am willing to move a subset. Maybe 10 or 15 max.
[16:14] Bancos Milestone: all ours are aviation oriented but we sail and boat , motorcycles any vehicle type on Double B Estates
[16:14] Maggie Darwin: We only own one full region and no lo-fat ones.
[16:14] Kelly Linden: Andrew: Do we want homesteads or full specifically or some of both?
[16:14] Andrew Linden: I'm looking for homesteads in particular.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: both for the best.
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: to cover all ground
[16:14] Fortnight Baxton: I have a couple of specific questions regarding this if you don't mind.
[16:15] Trapez Breen: Doesnt the fact that you need to patch a linux kernel suggest that you're barking up the wrong tree?
[16:15] Aeon Voom: we can do thisthe Undine Estate. my region is also very active so you might get alot of data
[16:15] Alma Fiertze: Balsa and Olds are best to represent aviation
[16:15] don Berithos: I suggest you send notecard to andrew on what sims
[16:15] Joanne Furlough: Trap: they applied the kernel patch, and it didn't work
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Anecdotal evidence suggests that homesteads are most affected so I'm expecting any changes to be most noticable there.
[16:15] Fortnight Baxton: Andrew, may I ask something regardignthe project?
[16:15] Andrew Linden: Sure Fortnight
[16:16] Temba: what about the main land sims? the probems are very bad there
[16:16] Fortnight Baxton: Okay, 1: Who is the project manager, 2: Are there any plans you can divulge regarding it, and 3: is there a ETA?
[16:16] Andrew Linden: Tembe, what regions specifically?
[16:16] RegY Constantine: nautilus, i'm sure being one of them
[16:17] Temba: I don't have a list i"m sorry but I keep hearing reports from sim renters both in workld and on the jira
[16:17] Andrew Linden: There is no product manager who is publicly available. I'm currenlty acting as liaison for SVC-472 since it was assigned to me a long time ago. And then maybe we'll here from ProductTeam Linden.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: I just divulged all the details that I have.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: I don't know an ETA.
[16:18] Temba: how ever umansky nad the surounding sims have gotten pretty bad
[16:18] don Berithos: Why do land owners Have to give there sims up for testing cant ll afford a couple servers to do this with
[16:18] Andrew Linden: Er... Fortnight, I thought you were talking about the kernel problem.
[16:18] Jane Fossett: thank you Andrew for sharing that.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: You're probably asking about the other project?
[16:18] Fortnight Baxton: Well that and the fix project you are working on.
[16:19] Fortnight Baxton: With the Homestead research.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: I'll be the liaison of the other project for now. Don't know an ETA.
[16:19] Fortnight Baxton: okay.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: Homestead reasearch? I'm unfamiliar.
[16:19] Fortnight Baxton: So questions then would refer to you regarding this then.
[16:19] Fortnight Baxton: What you just mentioned that you need homesteads for.
[16:20] lonetorus Habilis: hey rex
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Oh ok.
[16:20] Fortnight Baxton: right
[16:20] Gagi Binder: thought halloween was over
[16:20] Temba: may I suggest doing the tests under heavy load like we normaly see, you know, load down the servers with badly scripted object, over lapping mega prims and lots of mesh with bad scripts
[16:20] Gagi Binder: hi Layla
[16:20] Rex Cronon: hi lonetorus
[16:20] kittensusie Landar: a quick note to the sailors, our third rep, Armano Xaris has arrived in sim :)
[16:21] Andrew Linden: The homestead research this weekend is my own little project I'm doing for the dev who is working on the kernel.
[16:21] Layla Honi: hi
[16:21] Fortnight Baxton: I see.
[16:21] Fortnight Baxton: That's actually more information than expected.
[16:21] Aeon Voom: well andrew you should have my notecard on the matter.
[16:21] Fortnight Baxton: Thank you.
[16:21] Laycee Deed: please do hellos in IM
[16:22] Andrew Linden: I'll leave the testing up to the Residents. I'll just be curious to know if they see any difference.
[16:22] Temba: that why by loading down he sims like i suggested you can get a more accurate environme, becuase other wise you might not get the same resualts we do on heavly loaded simsnt
[16:22] don Berithos: Thank You understand
[16:22] kittensusie Landar: i'll be willing to test out the sims if possible
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Those of you who cross on vehicles alot are the most calibrated.
[16:23] Orca Flotta: is that good or bad?
[16:23] Jane Fossett: many of us have over five years sailing data on crosses.
[16:23] Judy Dressler: that's all of use here.
[16:23] Anu Daviau: we all do
[16:23] Maggie Darwin: Thanks for the update, Andrew> I'll make room for somebody who wants to vent. :-) Laters everybody.
[16:23] Blackbird Latte: very good Orca the testing with bots is incapable of presenting the problems you get with real users and their varried behaviors and uses
[16:23] Fortnight Baxton: Oh... one point of curiosity then - would a fix on homesteads also work out better for normal sims?
[16:23] Orca Flotta: i meant being calibrated
[16:24] Tig Spijkers: It's been mentioned on several occasions in the past that the servers are located in Dallas and Phoenix.
What is the situation there, how would that effect sim crossings with their locations spread for far apart.
[16:24] Gagi Binder: hehe get a plane
[16:24] Temba: my concern here uis that the homes steads aren't being tested under the same conditions is full sims
[16:24] Fortnight Baxton: And since Homesteads are cheaper they're more popular.
[16:25] Temba: there for your resualts will not be the same
[16:25] Fortnight Baxton: Logical.
[16:25] Andrew Linden: If we find a kernel fix then all hosts will eventually receive it.
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: and worst for racing
[16:25] Andrew Linden: Just the one test I was going to try to run over the weekend would be on a few homesteads.
[16:25] Rex Cronon: calibrated vehicles? what do u calibrate them against/
[16:25] Rex Cronon: ?
[16:25] Temba: you should test on full sims and main land sims that are under the poor conditiones we encounter on a daily bases
[16:26] RegY Constantine: i agree with Temba
[16:26] eleanora Scribe: i agree
[16:27] Blackbird Latte: Temba it is too difficult to test in public areas with dense populations and out of control scripting, private regions provide a more stable testbed for testing that can be applied to other areas. Most private regions have specific limits on scripts and usage
[16:27] Temba: last time I moter boated on the mainlands I was unable to make a sim crossing i kept getting rubberbanded and shot half way back, and it messed up my moats functions
[16:27] eleanora Scribe: stream died
[16:27] Howdy Colter: Just a sec
[16:27] don Berithos: Its Simpl,e hes doing a test on his own this weekend is homestaed servers configurations They should after this set up some full sims and run apropiate test as well .
[16:28] eleanora Scribe: oh howdy, loved your burn piece
[16:28] Temba: but public sims and sims loaded with bad scripting is where most the problems happen
[16:28] don Berithos: I suggest anyone who wants to donate the land notecard Andrew so he can get to work
[16:28] Temba: the laggyer a sim the worse the sim crossings gonna be
[16:28] Judy Dressler: temba we crash in open seas as well.
[16:28] Simon Linden: A big part of testing is being able to get consistently reliable conditions, which we will never get in the production environment. It's definitely worth getting data there, but pretty hard to get A/B test comparisons
[16:28] Vincent Nacon: Sim Owners only
[16:28] Fortnight Baxton: Okay... technical question: how much "residual" data is left on a server when an av crosses through? could the fact that these sims see many many crossings be something that ought to be looked at?
[16:28] TankMaster Finesmith: death to scripts! that would solve all our scripting problems, right kelly? :P
[16:29] Howdy Colter: ATTENTION! Stream has moved to one without a 50 viewer limit! http://livestream.com/burn2
[16:29] Blackbird Latte: you have the same thing in private regions temba, it's just more of a controlled test rather than diving into an area that will crash no matter what
[16:29] Fortnight Baxton: pauline can you move off from the table please?
[16:29] Simon Linden: I don't think that's an issue, Fortnight
[16:29] smith Firehawk: bad scriptigng comes in most freebies
[16:29] Rex Cronon: u can't kill scripts. it will render vehicles unusable
[16:29] Fortnight Baxton: It was a question sent to me.
[16:29] Temba: Vince this effecdts EVERY one, EVERY ONE should have a say
[16:29] don Berithos: please if you have a question say i have a Question
[16:30] kittensusie Landar: can the sailors and aviators please speak through their reprentatives!!!
[16:30] Jane Fossett: <--Rep
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Arawn Spitteler: If we have a script free border, wouldn't the vehicles continue through? Oh, Vehicle scripts are protected, aren't they?
[16:31] Temba: non sim owners are on more then sim owners
[16:31] Andrew Linden: Ok, I guess for now I'll let Simon and Kelly share news if they have any.
[16:32] Marianne McCann: Gulf of Lauren is homesteads, north of Bay City
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I'm going to try to sort through IM's and chat history to find some homesteads to test.
[16:32] LDeWell Hawker: Andrew...as I hear you...basically you all understand the issues.... and right now...no immediate solution is evident....beyond your testing..
[16:32] kittensusie Landar: Andrew, you mentioned the crossing problem may in part be due to bad scripting, can the Lab could offer us any help in identifying these "bad scripts" and fixing them?
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: non-sim owners can't "donate" a sim for the test....
[16:32] Temba: the less laggy a sim the smoother the sim crossings going to be
[16:33] Simon Linden: Let's see .. I know some of you are concerned about SVC-7413
[16:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7413
[#SVC-7413] Bug in Control Event
[16:33] EmmanuelMara: the sim crossing plus the into sim vanishing it is not only vehicles relative, the "virus" affect all that move, homestead or full prim
[16:33] Aeon Voom: yes this is a new one simon.
[16:33] Simon Linden: Kelly and I have been looking at it today and will be rolling a fix to the LeTigre RC channel next week
[16:33] Bri Hasp: possible the past months bitchiness cuz'd by Havok 2k10, Havok 2011.2, TimeWarp, or region count to instance overloading/overselling? .
[16:34] Aeon Voom: awesome. and rely thanks to maestro. he is a real saviour in this. as allways
[16:34] kittensusie Landar: i have offers of testing the regions from a number of people
[16:35] Tig Spijkers: agreed :-) ... I was a little ignorant when people starting complaining if I've changed my scripts to be more sensitive.
[16:35] Joly John: wow 80 and no lag ^^
[16:35] Howdy Colter: HAH
[16:35] Simon Linden: Will do, Aeon.
[16:35] Vincent Nacon: Another bug report for Falcon. SVC-7415
[16:35] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7415
[#SVC-7415] llSetKeyFramedMotion skipping position distance worst over given time
[16:37] Aeon Voom: simon. i got a question
[16:37] Simon Linden: ok, Maestro will pick that one up and relay it to him
[16:37] Simon Linden: ok Aeon, go ahead
[16:37] Vincent Nacon: thanks
[16:40] Orca Flotta: local chat died?
[16:40] LDeWell Hawker: not sure...
[16:40] Joanne Furlough: aeon crashed
[16:40] Simon Linden: I guess not
[16:40] Toscha Vayandar: http://www.livestream.com/burn2
[16:40] Tig Spijkers: Aeon crashed Simon
[16:40] Judy Dressler: looks like it
[16:40] RegY Constantine: waiting for Aeon's question
[16:40] Bri Hasp: Perhaps checkout the mega-region scheme in open-sim and adapt a version to public region clusters or some cooperative pay method. Would just be handy as psuedocode since the source is C#
[16:40] eleanora Scribe: i think he's back
[16:40] kittensusie Landar: wb Aeon :)
[16:40] seaone Bunyip: Thank You
[16:40] Rex Cronon: i think the lindens might be drawning under IMs
[16:41] LDeWell Hawker: Given your sim project: sailors could contribute to testing sim crossing improvements, rather than suffering from the frequent downs in performance. if a communication channel with LL is established again, this can be possible. Mesh was tested this way, with large contribute of users.
[16:41] Simon Linden: ok, that's a good example of what can go wrong ... dropped messages and everything lagged :)
[16:41] Fortnight Baxton: I got PFDs if they need them. :p
[16:41] Jane Fossett: Bri raises the mission strategy significanceof this issue. Sailors need a fix.
[16:41] Aeon Voom: okay what i wanted to ask is: on magnum is a new bug with affects some mesh builds. it doesnt let them rez and says its invalid mesh data. this needs to get evaluated for a jira yet. but i wanted to ask if you are aware of this allready?
[16:41] Jane Fossett: If no SL fix they will lweave, and are leaving.
[16:42] Temba: exactly Jane
[16:42] Aeon Voom: now calm down people please.
[16:43] Simon Linden: Aeon - I'm not sure of that specifically. It really needs to go into a jira ... that's where we'll look for problems and check them
[16:43] Temba: now what will LL do if it starts losing money as a resualt?
[16:43] Aeon Voom: okay. i'll check with tig later.
[16:43] Tig Spijkers: yeps needs some more testing
[16:43] Deirdre Faulds: meme
[16:43] Simon Linden: I do know there have been some others bugs from that RC channel that Falcon was looking at today
[16:43] Rael Ellisson: may I ask a question?
[16:43] Aeon Voom: this is definatly a new on because the builds worked fine before
[16:44] Temba: from what I keep hearing thiese problems have been going on for five years and getting worse not better
[16:44] Tig Spijkers: It's good to know you are aware of bugs on the RC Magnum
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: what you have is a mixed answer with few following questions, Temba. You'd nee to know the different between people who keep things up to date, low script score, etc etc and those who never bothered with that sort.
[16:45] Temba: is it true the vehiclie base limit increasing?
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: need*
[16:46] kittensusie Landar: I have been requested to ask a question......
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Ok I think I've got my regions to test: on the subcontinent "Avia" I'll be moving a 3x4 block for a weekend test.
[16:46] Vincent Nacon: sort of. it's still 32 prim but you can now assigns prim in linkset to have physic properity.
[16:46] Simon Linden: Yes, region crosings and TPs have always been problmatic They have regularly been getting attention, and we made a big step forward early this year. But there is still a long way to go
[16:46] Andrew Linden: I don't think those regions are publicly available, but they said they would run at least one test over the weekend.
[16:47] Temba: what do you mean sort of?
[16:47] Andrew Linden: I'm just looking for anecdotal evidence of "better", "worse" or "no change".
[16:47] Simon Linden: Go ahead, kittensusie
[16:47] Liv Leigh: i didnt recognize the step early this year.. actually around someime october a year ago they seemed better
[16:47] Temba: thanks vincent
[16:47] kittensusie Landar: can you tell us the correct procedure on how to file a AR for crashing? i think many people don't know how to do that
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: you can assign prims in linkset to not have physical properity, thus having more prim but only 32 prims are physic
[16:48] Aeon Voom: for that i just can cite the saying "do not trust a statistics you did'nt faked yourself" *laughs*. but yeah. the issue had better and worser times. and currently it is definatly worser
[16:48] Temba: i see
[16:48] Temba: thus increiesing the detail of a vehical
[16:48] eleanora Scribe: only person i ever ARed for crashing was blue
[16:49] Vincent Nacon: and increasing lag too :)
[16:49] Simon Linden: An AR? I personlly don't know of anything other than the viewer UI to file one
[16:49] Armano Xaris: In the previous chat we talked about sl wind. There was thought to change it to have less impact on servers. Is that still in the pipeline?
[16:49] Temba: how bout tickets Simon?
[16:49] kittensusie Landar: have passed that on, thank you Simon
[16:49] Temba: on the SL web site
[16:49] Andrew Linden: Armano, no we aren't working on that right now. It was a thought.
[16:49] eleanora Scribe: i'd like to remind us all that we are free to AR anyone at anytime for any reason...
[16:50] Andrew Linden: To tell the truth, the wind is not very expensive
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: most viewers have crasher log that auto send the data to their server
[16:50] Simon Linden: Sorry Temba, I really don't know. I'm a server developer, so I just point everyone to the web site or the viewer UI
[16:50] Orca Flotta: get ridf of SL wind, Andrew, nobody's using it anyway
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: thus no need to report it unless it's something else
[16:50] Temba: any reason? are you sure any reason?
[16:50] Andrew Linden: but it does transmit info, so it takes up bandwidth (at least for V1.23 viewers ) and a few CPU cycles
[16:50] Temba: do you know how many AR's the LInden governace team ignores on the premise?
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: Orca, we can't remove it because other contents are still using it... we could improve it by lessen the data in wind
[16:51] Temba: you know how many they get that are for any reason and time any one?
[16:51] Bri Hasp: how many regions are on an instance these days?
[16:51] eleanora Scribe: if you think your AR is being ignored, please feel free to AR a linden, with details in your AR
[16:51] Temba: most are ignored
[16:51] Temba: can't no linden tell who who's working in it
[16:51] Anu Daviau: sure Orca - all flexi objects use sl wind
[16:52] Armano Xaris: It would be helpfull if sl wind could be turned off as an option for estate owners i think. Thank you for your reply though andrew.
[16:52] Temba: just a scripted general email of recept
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: ignored is the wrong word.... it's Unread because they have too much AR to go through.
[16:52] Simon Linden: Folks, the Lndens here are developers. We don't work with or get near the governace issues like ARs and tickets, I'm afraid
[16:52] eleanora Scribe: we, as mentors, did it all the time
[16:52] Marianne McCann: I must be a nobody then cuz I do use SL wind
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Marianne, how do you use it?
[16:52] eleanora Scribe: i personally ARed blue linden dozens of times
[16:52] kittensusie Landar: I've been requested to ask another question
[16:52] Temba: sorry about that Simon we seem to be getting off topic here
[16:52] Sinshine Moorsider: please let's stick to dev issues while we have this time
[16:52] Leon Qvetcher: eleanora xD
[16:52] Simon Linden: We are _considering_ an option to turn off wind. It has to be 'opt-in' to avoid breaking existing things that rely on it
[16:53] Chaos Mandelbrot: omg I made it in
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: don't forget that particles are still using it
[16:53] Rex Cronon: as others said: allow sim owner to turn it on/off
[16:53] Bri Hasp: why not just dump the SL wind only flags and trees use it or update it on restart basis
[16:53] Tig Spijkers: flexi too
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: that too
[16:53] Scurvy Ragu: sailors use it
[16:54] Simon Linden: I wouldn't expect any dramatic improvement in performance ... and that's correct, there has to be some value around for the parts that use it
[16:54] Blackbird Latte: Many landscape items and decorations for around the homes, docks, ect use SL wind Simon...it's a very different use than most vehicles it would change the face of SL in many places
[16:54] Temba: sailors use wind
[16:54] kittensusie Landar: can we please stay on topic people, it will make things a lot simpler
[16:54] Fortnight Baxton: I agree with Rex.
[16:54] Layla Honi: I just made a hot air balloon that can use wind
[16:54] Orca Flotta: saiors DON'T use SL wind, it'sd unusable
[16:54] Aeon Voom: anyway. kitten has a question. please
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: you can always lessen the wind data
[16:54] Temba: it is orca?
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: make them more simplier
[16:54] Simon Linden: But maybe we can save some CPU by not doing much calculation and updating
[16:54] Andrew Linden: Well.. I had and idea on how to compute a "fake" wind that is still variable, divergenceless, and probably more useful (by regularity and such) but is a bit cheaper.
[16:54] Anu Daviau: older boats use sl wind, we DO need SL wind
[16:54] Fortnight Baxton: Yes, Kitten has the floor.
[16:54] Bri Hasp: yep
[16:54] Orca Flotta: absolutely
[16:54] Liv Leigh: there s been a suggestion for sl wind i caught on a sailing forum.. that is to revamp sl wind into a fixed vector with a simple variation in dir.. that might make it mroe useful for several purposes
[16:54] RoDen Kilian: yes we still use SL wind withe the pirate ships
[16:54] Jane Fossett: wind is no issue if we can't cross sims!
[16:54] Vincent Nacon: or even just break it down to 1 float as radian data
[16:54] kittensusie Landar: i can wait until we've finished with Orca's wind ;)
[16:55] Anu Daviau: truem Jane
[16:55] Liv Leigh: true jane
[16:55] Alma Fiertze: ha!
[16:55] Bri Hasp: check Flotsam wind system
[16:55] Scurvy Ragu: you will destroy sailing communities if u turn off wind
[16:55] Orca Flotta: i'm finished, thank you
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] LDeWell Hawker: Andrew and Simon....we are here because we represent the tip of the iceberg....The real message here is that you are about to lose the existing sailors and residents. And you won't be getting new avatars to take their place because they will never persist under these conditions, nor will there be many to encourage them, given what we know as 'sailing conditions'. Sailing is MULTI-SIM event (as well as flying and other vehicles) if you can't cross the sim lines it won't be worth the bother.
Ultimately, the sims designed for vehicle type activities will begin to 'die out' as well as the creators of these vehicles. The BLAKE region is not paid for directly by the sailors BUT any private estates that are not getting the performance they expect will lose residents, and eventually the owners may give up those sims.
[16:55] Fortnight Baxton: *headdesk* Kitten... what were you going to say?
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: oy..
[16:56] Rael Ellisson: order, please
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: This is why I don't bring my people from car racing world.
[16:56] Andrew Linden: Ok, thanks LDeWell. I hear you.
[16:56] kittensusie Landar: Simon and Andrew..... can you restart the sailing ofice hours and DPW hours? Things were a lot simpler then......
[16:56] Simon Linden: ok, let's all agree it needs to get better. We want t do that.
[16:56] Andrew Linden: We had "sailing office hours"?
[16:56] LDeWell Hawker: that is all we are asking
[16:57] Liv Leigh: blondin held them
[16:57] Fortnight Baxton: yep
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: last Tuesday?
[16:57] Liv Leigh: before he left
[16:57] kittensusie Landar: that is what i was requested to ask
[16:57] Jane Fossett: Please restart office hours so we can communicate.
[16:57] kittensusie Landar: also.......
[16:57] eleanora Scribe: blondin is gone
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: that won't do good as people would log right back in here
[16:57] Judy Dressler: why just sailing ?
[16:57] Aeon Voom: there used to be a linden for the blake. right now there is none. it might be helpful to reinstall one
[16:57] Rael Ellisson: agreed...communication is good.
[16:57] Aeon Voom: exactly
[16:58] Fortnight Baxton: after your questions I have one from the outside crowd.
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: ask away, Fort
[16:58] eleanora Scribe: there used to be a governance team as well
[16:58] Fortnight Baxton: [16:56] Siana Gearz: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7343
[16:56] Siana Gearz: it's been "fixed" for a while, but the fix remains unreleased and most weaponry is broken.
[16:58] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-7343] llMinEventDelay Bug
[16:58] Vincent Nacon: ahh yes
[16:58] Liv Leigh: well i disagree when it comes to region crossings, i think that is a generic issue, not limited to sailing, but paramount to creating a contiguous world in sl
[16:59] Simon Linden: kittensusie - It would be up to other groups in LL to join or re-start user groups / office hours. We do the server ones twice a week (more than most) to stay on top of problems. It does help us a lot, but I can't commit or make promisies for other parts of the company
[16:59] Vincent Nacon: fixed but just gotta wait for it
[16:59] Judy Dressler: We need office hours not just for the sailors but for both aviation and sailing community ( sorry to break the depeuty - spokeperson scheme as it does not work anyway ).
[16:59] Andrew Linden: I don't know about opening more User Groups or office hours. We keep this one open because us devs really like to get feedback on bug fixes.
[16:59] Kelly Linden: The llMinEventDelay bug should be fixed on LeTigre now.
[16:59] kittensusie Landar: not too long ago we had Blondin and Keira Linden looking over the Blake Sea area, but since many of the Lindens left/got fired many people feel we do not have the commitment of the Lindens when it comes to performance in the Blake Sea area. Can the Lindens assign someone to oversee Blake once more and be responsible for that region, someone we can contact if/when things go norks-up?
[17:00] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[17:00] Tig Spijkers: great news tehKeltz, I'll check it after the meeting
[17:00] Fancy Detector: Andrew Linden has arrived!
[17:00] Simon Linden: That's exactly what we (given our jobs) can't do
[17:00] LDeWell Hawker: There is already a BLAKE SEA group...we just need to use it...
[17:00] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!
[17:00] Sinshine Moorsider: where does that leave the non-blake people?
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: that Fancy Detector need to be fired
[17:00] TankMaster Finesmith: have a great weekend everyone!
[17:00] Bri Hasp: guess it's easier to do Farmville or Sims
[17:00] Simon Linden: ... by we I mean the Lindens here, kittensue
[17:00] Jane Fossett: Sailing isd Grid-wide
[17:00] Flip Idlemind: Excuse me?
[17:01] Rex Cronon: tc those leaving
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: and Please don't rally up the meeting like this again, thanks!
[17:01] Bancos Milestone: I think things are progressing fine I will be leaving this meeting . thanks to all
[17:01] TankMaster Finesmith: dont forget for those in the US, the time change is this weekend for those in the stats that change time
[17:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Have a good weekend, Simon & Andrew & Kelly (when you take off).
[17:01] Anu Daviau: sim crossing is a global issue, not Blakes only
[17:01] Liv Leigh: tc bancos
[17:01] Judy Dressler: Aviation is grid wide
[17:01] Bunnie Mills: With the mesh project, devs were in touch with a volunteer group
[17:01] Howdy Colter: Will a Linden IM me afterwards? I have a question about the office hours that have came up, but should be private.
[17:01] Alma Fiertze: Thank you for your help and attention :)
[17:01] Deirdre Faulds: i have mainland airport and hard to run an airport if people cannot take off or land
[17:02] Andrew Linden: Right Bunnie. Similarly this User Group was originally opened during the Havok4 overhaul transition -- for a specific project.
[17:02] kittensusie Landar: Can I ask how Blondin and Keira started looking over Blake in the first place, and couldn't one do that now?
[17:02] Giovanni Benazzi: true Deirdre
[17:02] Flip Idlemind: The "Fancy Detector" is an object I'm wearing. And those Lindens actually did just now "arrive" for me, because I just got in
[17:02] Rael Ellisson: I think the point is that improved communication with all vehicle using groups would be appreciateduld
[17:02] Andrew Linden: But we were having so much fun, and I was moved to do mostly maintenance, we kept it open.
[17:02] Giovanni Benazzi: i own an airport as well and most of the sims most of the time go offline
[17:02] Aeon Voom: On behalf of the pilots of SL: thanks alot andrew and simon to hear us. to all others: I'm sorry we invaded your dev meeting with the lindens. but we had points we had to bring across
[17:02] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[17:03] Simon Linden: It helps us a LOT with specific bugs and issues
[17:03] Alma Fiertze: How nice to be able to wor together :)
[17:03] don Berithos: Well seeing my deputys arent answering Please dont forget theres hell of lot more water around than just the blake sea
[17:03] Vincent Nacon: but Aeon, there was no point to go across, they were aware of it
[17:03] Flip Idlemind: Ok, so now that I'm here...there's a region that's been down for several weeks, that I have a couple questions about
[17:03] Andrew Linden: No worries. That is what this meeting is for: server issues and bugs.
[17:03] Bunnie Mills: yes but it's 4 years : P
[17:03] Bri Hasp: A vehicle isnt a vehicle until you visit another region while sitting on it, time pool wise
[17:03] Temba: why are the lag issues and sim problems getting worse?
[17:04] Fortnight Baxton: One question: from the balloonists :
[17:02:48] Judy Dressler: [16:58] Dahlia Jayaram: Hi Judy, I'm glad to see you sitting at the main table at Linden Village for the meeting. Many of us are stuck on the next door sim unable to get in. Will you be able to find out where we can get a transcript of the meeting after it is finished? Thank you!
[17:04] Temba: sims crashings
[17:04] kittensusie Landar: Don, you have something to say about the JIRA you started.......
[17:04] Fortnight Baxton: Sorry I cut and pasted that direct...
[17:04] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and helping keep this usuable and constructive. We know there are issues, and please believe us, we would REALLY like to fix them and make it better. Unfortunatley, it's not going to be easy or quick
[17:04] Temba: don't balloonists use wind/
[17:04] Fortnight Baxton: When can we get transcripts?
[17:05] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming. I've got some regions to wrangle.
[17:05] Layla Honi: my balloon does
[17:05] Kelly Linden: have a good weekend all.
[17:05] Vola Le: saludos a todos, hasta otra oportunidad
[17:05] Vola Le: Greetings to all, until another opportunity
[17:05] RegY Constantine: thank you very much, Simon, Andrew and Kelly
[17:05] Bunnie Mills: thanks Lindens- bye all!
[17:05] Liv Leigh: tc andrew, simon
[17:05] Rex Cronon: tc andrew, simon
[17:05] Andrew Linden: I'll post the transcript within an hour (hopefully).
[17:05] Sandflea Lorefield: bye
[17:05] Flip Idlemind: QUESTION: If a region has actually been deleted, what would llRequestSimulatorData return on it, as far as its status goes
[17:05] kittensusie Landar: thank you Andrew and Simon :)
[17:05] Laycee Deed: thanks Andrew and Simon
[17:05] Anu Daviau: Thank u Simon and Andrew
[17:05] Vickie Maidstone: thank you Lindens!!
[17:05] Liisa Runo: the meeting chat log will be here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group
[17:05] Jane Fossett: <--will post on metaversesailing.net later today, I assume many copies will go up.
[17:05] Flip Idlemind: Would it be "down" or "unknown"
[17:05] Flip Idlemind: Or something else
[17:05] Robin Lobo: thank you Andrew and Simon :)
[17:05] Bri Hasp: well this is now into my Friday happy hour ritual, laters and ty.. poofs
[17:05] Andrew Linden: Flip, I can delete your region and you can test.
[17:05] Simon Linden: Bye - have a great weekend
[17:05] Temba: Vincent I think the poits to get across were made today it doesn't matter if they are aware of it or not
[17:05] Andrew Linden: (That was a joke)
[17:05] TankMaster Finesmith: >.<
[17:05] Flip Idlemind: Gyaahaahah ooooh
[17:05] Tig Spijkers: A Bug a Day keeps ... <insert funny quote here>
[17:06] SophieLauren Allen: lol
[17:06] Liv Leigh: hope your weekend will be mroe peacefu; ;)
[17:06] Rael Ellisson: ciao all
[17:06] Temba: theres always points that need to be made
[17:06] Flip Idlemind: Well, there's a (Linden Owned) region that has been down for several weeks
[17:06] Giovanni Benazzi: lol
[17:06] Flip Idlemind: And I'm thinking it's possible
[17:06] Fortnight Baxton: Thank you everyone for helping.
[17:06] Flip Idlemind: and likely
[17:06] Flip Idlemind: That it was deleted
[17:06] don Berithos: Yes Well Ill just add to what Hawk has said Unless this taken seriously on A cporate level and really taking a few sims as a pet project is great Andrew But ll should be have test sims set up for this that we could utilize for all the sever versions .
[17:06] Fortnight Baxton: And thanks Andrew.
[17:06] RegY Constantine: thanks everyone... have fun and a great weekend
[17:07] Flip Idlemind: However I'm wondering if it's also possible that it went down, never came back up, and was somehow forgotten about
[17:07] Liv Leigh: ha temba.. nice to see RAF Rescue here too
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