Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.01.10
|Prev 2012.01.06||Next 2012.01.13|
List of Speakers
|Andrew Linden||don Berithos||Fancy Detector|
|Flip Idlemind||Ima Mechanique||Jonathan Yap|
|JoyofRLC Acker||Kadah Coba||Kallista Destiny|
|Kaluura Boa||Kelly Linden||Latif Khalifa|
|Latif Khalifaafter||Lestat Demain||Liisa Runo|
|NeoBokrug Elytis||Qie Niangao||Rex Cronon|
|Sahkolihaa Contepomi||Simon Linden||Vincent Nacon|
[11:59] Lestat Demain: incoming linden!!!
[11:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It's an Andrew.
[11:59] Vincent Nacon: as requested, made a mesh sofa
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Hello
[12:00] Lestat Demain: hiya
[12:00] Kaluura Boa: Nice cut cube... =^_^=
[12:00] Kallista Destiny: Ave Andrew
[12:00] Flip Idlemind: Hey guize
[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[12:00] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!
[12:01] Kadah Coba: This thing doesn't work
[12:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: No room to sit here. o_O
[12:01] Kadah Coba: Yeah
[12:01] Vincent Nacon: touch sofa to change color... and there's no sit script, because it has proper physic
[12:01] Lestat Demain: your ass is too fat try another spot
[12:02] Vincent Nacon: so you can sit anywhere you aim at it
[12:02] Andrew Linden: click carefully
[12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: .... woo, rainbow.
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for the sofas Vincent
[12:02] Vincent Nacon: np
[12:02] Simon Linden: Musiccal chair!
[12:02] Simon Linden: gawd, I can't type... Musical chairs!
[12:03] Kallista Destiny: me feels like a Gipsy
[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh, hey Simon.
[12:03] Latif Khalifaafter: "No room to sit here, try another spot."'s finally lol
[12:03] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:03] Kallista Destiny: Wow lotsa Lindens
[12:04] Lestat Demain: only 3
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Lets see... news
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: Simon, you gotta aim where you want to sit, it got no sit target
[12:04] Latif Khalifa: second life flying is easy, sitting is hard. don't get sofa's without scritped sits ;)
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Simon, I think your bake failed.
[12:04] Simon Linden: I'm working on it
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: hmm I didn't think it would be hard for most people
[12:04] Lestat Demain: his heads ok
[12:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: llMultiSitTarget
[12:04] NeoBokrug Elytis: Heh
[12:05] Kallista Destiny: and his boots
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: yeah, we need something like that
[12:05] Andrew Linden: The only bit of news I've got is that the topic of eliminating flight height limits popped up again in internal LL discussions
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: silly one sit per prim
[12:05] Andrew Linden: we've discussed them in the past here
[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: :o
[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Would be nice to not have to use flight assists.
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: that too
[12:05] Lestat Demain: there was no limit in the old days :P
[12:06] Andrew Linden: and as I recall the last time I polled the Simulator User Group about eliminating the 200m flight limit the response I got was:
[12:06] Liisa Runo: it been discussed over and over again, everybody always agree: remove the limit
[12:06] Andrew Linden: "go ahead and remove it, I don't care about my flight assist" and "make it an option"
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Yup.
[12:06] Latif Khalifa: just kill the limit and be done with it ;)
[12:06] Kadah Coba: "Why haven't you done it already?" :P
[12:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Removing needs for a flight assist = less scripts. :)
[12:06] Simon Linden: The deployment or enabling of it will be exciting as people with working flight assists get sent into orbit
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Rumor has it there is some sort of flight limit at 4096. Is that new?
[12:07] Lestat Demain: doesnt make much sense having a 4096 ceiling and not being able to get there
[12:07] Kaluura Boa: =^_^=
[12:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I only know of the prim rez limit at 4096
[12:07] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Or well, 'move' limit.
[12:07] Kallista Destiny: but make parcel bans extend vertically to infinity
[12:07] Andrew Linden: Any flight limit at 4096 isn't a server-side limit.
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: that sounds more of a rumor, Andrew
[12:07] Flip Idlemind: You're right, it's viewer side. It's part of, lemme look...
[12:07] Andrew Linden: ok a vicious rumor
[12:08] Flip Idlemind: interpolateLinearMotion()
[12:08] Kallista Destiny: Ia there such a thing as a benign rumor?
[12:08] Flip Idlemind: in llviewerobject.cpp
[12:08] Flip Idlemind: It won't let any object (including you) go over 4096
[12:08] Simon Linden: Doesn't the physics simulation stop at 4096?
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: not sure
[12:09] Lestat Demain: scripts do
[12:09] Kadah Coba: Object can't go above 4096 anyway.
[12:09] Kaluura Boa: Avatars can...
[12:09] Kaluura Boa: Which is stupid...
[12:09] Andrew Linden: The physics world simulation's "broadphase collision detection" system is optimized to happen in a box, and that box's height is set to 4096
[12:10] Andrew Linden: so objects moving outside of the box may have rather expensive consequences for computing object collisions
[12:10] Kallista Destiny: That's funny my personal record for altitude is 150K M and -2500 M
[12:10] Andrew Linden: well, avatars are allowed to go outside of the box (as I recall)
[12:10] NeoBokrug Elytis: The challenge is thinking outside the box.
[12:10] Andrew Linden: so if a 4096 limit was introduced it was "new" (in the last few years ;-)
[12:11] Lestat Demain: yers my viewscreen goes black...
[12:11] Rex Cronon: greetings all
[12:11] Flip Idlemind: I'll say this though. When I was very new, I fell off some really tall building or something, and it was very disturbing and confusing that I couldn't fly back up
[12:11] Andrew Linden: Anyway, the simulator allows avatars to go outside the box, and we just eat any collision cost consequences, but those only appear to be theoretical
[12:12] Lestat Demain: theoretical collisions?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: I've never seen a simulator lagging bad for avatars up high, but it is something that Havok warns us about.
[12:12] Vincent Nacon: Before we carried away.... any news for today?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: Simon or Kelly, any news? I don't have any more.
[12:13] Simon Linden: I have one tidbit ...
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, it wasn't clear -- was your news that the fly limit is finally being removed?
[12:13] Simon Linden: The CoarseLocationUpdate message, the one that drives the mini-map, was fixed up yesterday
[12:13] Jonathan Yap: \o/ Simon
[12:13] Kadah Coba: Fixed how?
[12:13] Flip Idlemind: Fixed up as in people way up in the sky won't show up as under ground?
[12:13] Simon Linden: I found the problem that was causing any AVs aboue 1020 m to get reported with a zero height
[12:13] Kadah Coba: What was broken? >_>
[12:14] Simon Linden: Math :(
[12:14] Andrew Linden: No, just that it came up again internally. There aren't any Linden's arguing that we should keep the 200m flight limit.
[12:14] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That's actually been fixed?
[12:14] Simon Linden: So the mini-map up and down pointers will be correct soon
[12:14] Kadah Coba: You mean the old problem where it overflows to zero?
[12:14] Simon Linden: Yeah, that one
[12:14] Liisa Runo: fixed server side of viewer side?
[12:14] Simon Linden: Server side
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: That's awesome news
[12:14] Simon Linden: There is still a viewer problem, however
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: ahh nice, finally
[12:14] NeoBokrug Elytis: Needs to be rolled out?
[12:14] Latif Khalifa: how can you fix it when height is 1 byte multiplied by 4?
[12:15] Kadah Coba: SVC-7560?
[12:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7560
[#SVC-7560] coarse location update message has a limited z resolution
[12:15] Lestat Demain: oh great i can finally have an acurrate Z pointer
[12:15] Simon Linden: It's OK for the basic up / down check, but the viewer doesn't seem to get it right when both AVs are up high, above 1022 m
[12:15] Latif Khalifa: Simon, it's protocol limit
[12:15] Kadah Coba: What was the fix?
[12:15] Simon Linden: Right - the data is packed into one byte
[12:15] Simon Linden: So we have 0 to 255
[12:16] Latif Khalifa: unless you want to change coarse update message
[12:16] Kadah Coba: And it was multiplied by 4 in the viewer I think
[12:16] Simon Linden: That is multiplied by 4 to be your basic rough altitude - 0 to (255*4) or 1020
[12:16] Lestat Demain: hey can we have the no script zones in the sandboxes returned to the way they used to work?...as in all crap can enter but none exits?
[12:16] Liisa Runo: (i just noticed we have pile of new categories in JIRA, even display names have their own category now^^)
[12:16] Kadah Coba: Why was the errored limit at 768m then?
[12:17] Simon Linden: Anything above 1020 is 255, technically called "really high" :P
[12:17] Kallista Destiny: lols
[12:17] Kadah Coba: Any one above 768m would be reported at 0m before.
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: naa... 1,000,000 is too high
[12:17] Jonathan Yap: So your fix was to send 255 and not 0 for "really high" cases?
[12:17] Simon Linden: I don't know about 768m, Kadah, but I found a math error with the high numbers
[12:17] Latif Khalifa: So how can you fix that? You cannot just change multiplier and break every viewer in existance
[12:17] Simon Linden: Yes Jonathan
[12:18] Simon Linden: The fix I made does the right math so above 1020 gets sent to the viewer as a value of 255
[12:18] Andrew Linden: used to go to 0 instead of 255, I take it
[12:18] Latif Khalifa: ah i see so if av >= 1024m the height get reported as 1024
[12:18] Kadah Coba: Which means they will report as below you when you're above 1020 as well? o.o
[12:19] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, yeah it was 0
[12:19] Latif Khalifa: Kadah, it would fix the most common case, break some others
[12:19] Andrew Linden: Still, the protocol has limited resolution. The only way to fix that is to indroduce a source of info with more bits.
[12:19] Simon Linden: But I think I mentioned taht the viewer is still funky - I had 2 AVs at the same height, above 1020, and it wasn't showing dots, but chevrons pointing down
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: it is really much of a bit problem to have 2 byte than 1?
[12:19] Latif Khalifa: Simon, that's because viewer things that they are at 1024
[12:20] Simon Linden: I may follow that up, or if I don't have time, punt it to the viewer bugs
[12:20] Kadah Coba: Could we add another field to the message with the proper height?
[12:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well, adding another byte would break all viewers, wouldn't it?
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: meh
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: update anyway
[12:20] Latif Khalifa: so if you fly at 1500 and somone is at 2000, you minimap will show them below you
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Depends on it the protocol is extendable or not
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: it's only a mini map
[12:20] Lestat Demain: and radars
[12:20] Simon Linden: Changing that message isn't easy -- the hassle has out-weighed the cosmetic benefits, which is why it hasn't been fixed in so long
[12:21] NeoBokrug Elytis: New protocols, tack a 2 on the end of it. :)
[12:21] Latif Khalifa: it fill fix case when you are below 1024
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: yeah, maybe it's time
[12:21] Andrew Linden: Yes, changint the existing protocol would break old viewers. We'd have to add a new protocol. Perhaps a web-service type rather than using UDP packets.
[12:21] NeoBokrug Elytis: Same with llFunctions. :)
[12:21] Kadah Coba: According to Soft it wouldnt
[12:21] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, you don't want web service for coarse update :)
[12:21] Latif Khalifa: udp was made for this
[12:21] Latif Khalifa: it's sent quite often and it doesnt matter if it gets lost
[12:21] Lestat Demain: lol yeh i tried that with a normal radar and it doesnt really work
[12:21] Kadah Coba: SVC-7560 is the jira for this
[12:22] Andrew Linden: your're right Latif
[12:22] Flip Idlemind: I'll say this...if you're holding an event at high altitude, and someone's causing a problem, and you try to eject them from the "Nearby People" list, but the list is empty because no one is nearby because everyone is "at 0 height"...
[12:22] Flip Idlemind: Very frustrating. And, true story
[12:22] Jonathan Yap: Is there any place in the packet you can add a nibble for range extension?
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:22] Simon Linden: There's one other related change I haven't made yet in this area ... the simulator currently sends the coarse updates every 2 seconds
[12:22] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure. I'll have to examine the packet fields
[12:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I'm sure some viewers have 'fixes' in place for that, FLIP.
[12:22] Vincent Nacon: I get that a lot at Race Tracks sim, where we have 12 tracks spread out across in the sky
[12:22] Simon Linden: I was thinking of slowing that down when the region slows down ... a small step to lighten the load when we're lagging
[12:23] Flip Idlemind: Maybe some do, but what if the person with the actual power to eject people is on an official viewer
[12:23] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hahah yeah, if everyones rubberbanding, no need to update that they're in the same position.
[12:23] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: FLIP - True.
[12:23] Kallista Destiny: Or send another 'new' packet giving the high nibble of positions? Perhaps ever 5th regular packet?
[12:24] Latif Khalifa: Simon it gets exponentially more expensive with more people in the sim. Perhaps factor that one in too?
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: 6 of those tracks are above 1024
[12:24] Simon Linden: Interesting point, Latif .... I'll think about that
[12:25] Latif Khalifa: my thinking is if you're sendting one packet to two agents avery two seconds, no big deal, but with say 40 it adds up
[12:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Perhaps add some system that doesn't send an update unless they actually move?
[12:25] Simon Linden: It definitely does add load
[12:25] Andrew Linden: Also, it should be possible to only send the packets when the info changes significantly.
[12:25] Jonathan Yap: You have to send updates periodically for new arrivals
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: Yeah, otherwise my...
[12:26] Andrew Linden: Actually, each avatar gets
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: "...Has arrived!"
[12:26] Rex Cronon: why don't avatats stop rubberbanding if the ave moves more than 1m with no updates?
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: Thing won't work
[12:26] Andrew Linden: gets a customized packet. There can be avatar-specific info there.
[12:26] Kallista Destiny: The problem is that the worse case is when everyone is running around, dragging havock to it;s knees
[12:27] Kallista Destiny: and requireing those updates
[12:27] Jonathan Yap: Would it be possible in the long term to have packet versioning? That way "New Viewer" could tell the server to use V2 of a given packet type
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: so glad you didn't use Skyrim's knee joke
[12:27] Latif Khalifa: Jonathan, the problem is not adding an extra block to CoarseLocationUpdate
[12:27] Kelly Linden: ImprovedCoarseLocationUpdate
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: isnlt the position packed just generated once, then send to everyone?
[12:28] Simon Linden: The CoarseLocationUPdate messages are a bit of the load, but not the majority, so I'm not sure how much time and effort is needed. If it gets too complex, it would be better to spend the time on something else
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: the problem in this case is more that this packet is high-volume
[12:28] Kadah Coba: Make CoarseLocationUpdate a cap :o
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: and it gets dangereously close to max pack size
[12:28] Simon Linden: But a basic change in the frequency of that update when things gets slow or crowded makes sense and will get us most of the win
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: Kadah, cap called every 2 seconds? cwazy
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: how about 1 byte till when avatar is over 1024m, send in 22 byte?
[12:28] Latif Khalifa: cap servers have trouble staying up as it is
[12:28] Kadah Coba: If its a cap, you could send all agents in one go
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: that way it's half broken for outdated viewers
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: which was broken anyhow
[12:29] Latif Khalifa: Kadah, how do you figure? No you need to send to each agent separetely
[12:29] Kallista Destiny: no you can't send it to all of the cilents s over udp, not as one packet anyway
[12:29] Latif Khalifa: each cap request is a http connection which is very very expensive compared to fire-and-forget udp packet
[12:29] Kadah Coba: I mean each agent can get info for all agents at once instead of one agent per packet
[12:29] Simon Linden: Only other news I have is that we should have new code in the RC channels tomorrow
[12:30] Latif Khalifa: Kadah, this is how its done now. You get one CoarseLocatiionUpdate packet that has all agents in the sim in it
[12:30] Latif Khalifa: I was talking about sim having to send those to every agent in the sim
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:31] Kadah Coba: Ah ok
[12:31] Rex Cronon: if u have 100 avatars, each needing at least 1000kb, u get 100Mb per packet sent to each ave?
[12:31] Andrew Linden: I'm looking at the CoarseLocationUpdate packet format now and I'm not getting any bright ideas on how to fit more resolution there.
[12:31] Latif Khalifa: coarse is about 1K
[12:31] Jonathan Yap: No free nibble anywhere in there Andrew?
[12:32] Kallista Destiny: OH... you haven't mentioned It seems that V1 is now mo longer available
[12:32] Lestat Demain: got a link for it?
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: shh... let them kill it off quietly
[12:32] Andrew Linden: V1 viewer is not available for download anymore?
[12:32] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Doesn't seem to be.
[12:32] Latif Khalifa: it was removed yesterday
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: It was yesterday
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: hmmm
[12:32] Kallista Destiny: I just looked for it
[12:32] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I don't see it on the wiki page.
[12:33] Qie Niangao: V1 incompatible change to inventory result ordering.
[12:33] Latif Khalifa: nobody uses open object and wear anyway :P
[12:33] Jonathan Yap: Any update on Svc-378?
[12:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378
[#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"
[12:33] Rex Cronon: what incompatible chage?
[12:34] Andrew Linden: No update on that yet Jonathan.
[12:34] Flip Idlemind: V1 has been on its deathbed for a while. Does this mean it's on its way to the morgue now?
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:34] Kallista Destiny: Actually I think it's about time tht V1 was quietly laid to rest.
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:34] Flip Idlemind: Probably for the best
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: so.... shhh
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: let it sleep
[12:34] Kadah Coba: I think it was an oversight that it wasn't removed from the wiki before.
[12:34] Kallista Destiny places her hand over her heart
[12:35] Lestat Demain: oh nooo duz this mean i have to scrap my antique viewer collection?
[12:35] Liisa Runo: i think it is about time for LL to fix the 4000+ v3 bugs
[12:35] don Berithos whispers: Can i ask a Question
[12:35] Liisa Runo: ask
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: no
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: but ok
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Sure don, go ahead.
[12:35] don Berithos: On the server update concerning sim crossings
[12:35] Rex Cronon: if v1 is dead, it is quite possible there will be at least a slight reduction in the number of users...
[12:35] don Berithos: was that grid wide update completed
[12:36] NeoBokrug Elytis: Until they update their balsa wood and twine PCs.
[12:36] don Berithos: or was just the blake sea updated
[12:36] Andrew Linden: don, you are probably asking about the kernel upgrade. Yes that was completed before Christmas 2011
[12:36] don Berithos shouts: Ok grid wide thanks you
[12:36] Kadah Coba: That would explain why it got worse after that >_>
[12:36] Vincent Nacon rubs his ear
[12:36] JoyofRLC Acker shouts: Yeah it was quite choppy ut there today
[12:37] JoyofRLC Acker shouts: Not sure what was going on
[12:37] Vincent Nacon looks for ear plugs...
[12:37] Kallista Destiny puts on some ear protectors
[12:37] don Berithos: because were seeing same additudes in the dire srtait abu haunts sea regions
[12:37] don Berithos: very poor perpormance
[12:38] Andrew Linden: Huh... I wonder if region crossings are affected by the rolling update. Was there one happening today?
[12:38] Flip Idlemind: Someone told me that, while playing LR, they were crossing regions and not even noticing it. Is that intentional, accidental, or imaginary? In other words, is there an official, magical, "region crossings will be instant!" feature being planned?
[12:38] don Berithos: and with bandwith numbers high
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: Don, what kind of sim was it?
[12:38] Rex Cronon: ear protection?
[12:38] don Berithos: open sea
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: then that's why
[12:38] JoyofRLC Acker: Andrew, i havent been able to chekc yet but the updtes usually finish by 9 or 10 am ... we were racing at 11 am and it was not good.
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: it's not designed for performance
[12:38] Kallista Destiny: People are shouting...
[12:38] JoyofRLC Acker: Back to November type performance. It was better when everyone was on holiday LOL
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Flip, no there is no magic in the LR regions.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: That I know about.
[12:39] Kallista Destiny: Joy, that might be the answer
[12:39] Kaluura Boa: But it's true that the border corssings in LR regions are very smooth
[12:39] Lestat Demain: lack of people perhaps?
[12:39] don Berithos: could be load
[12:40] Jonathan Yap: Do LR share simhosts with the rest of the grid or are they isolated?
[12:40] Simon Linden: The LR regions may get a boost from being on the same server
[12:40] Andrew Linden: What is an example name for an LR region?
[12:40] don Berithos: Is there a way andrew we can get a staurday morning restart of our sailing sims in dire striagts area
[12:40] JoyofRLC Acker: this afternoon i think the sims we were in were lightly loaded (based on minimpa etc) but we had a few serious border xing issues and huge lag a lot of the time
[12:40] JoyofRLC Acker: this was eastern Blake and norther Sailors Cove
[12:41] Andrew Linden: ah, all of the LR regions are called "LR #"
[12:41] Flip Idlemind: But you can only get to them through portals. (Well, *I* can't, I imagine you Linden-y people can go anywhere)
[12:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: Any chance estate owners could get region/server clustering?
[12:42] Andrew Linden: no magic that I can see there... the regions are on a small channel, but are not sorted by host in any significant way
[12:42] Andrew Linden: yeah, I was wondering about that too, NeoBorkrug
[12:42] Jonathan Yap: There was an effort recently to move adjacent regions to the same colo, is that progressing?
[12:42] Kadah Coba: Any word on getting the LR features for residents?
[12:42] Flip Idlemind: ^ This
[12:42] NeoBokrug Elytis: That'd be nice. :) I own 8 full, and 4 homesteads.
[12:42] NeoBokrug Elytis: THAT
[12:43] NeoBokrug Elytis: As a scripter, I am frothing at the mouth for these new features.
[12:43] Andrew Linden: No word on that yet.
[12:44] Andrew Linden: Yes, they would be quite useful for building more immersive experiences in SL.
[12:44] Kaluura Boa: I hate LL secret projects... It always means bad suprise at the end...
[12:44] Kadah Coba: Are the inventory changes live anywhere yet? Aditi?
[12:44] Andrew Linden: What "inventory changes" would those be Kadah?
[12:44] Latif Khalifa: rodvik said in the blog post that in order to use those you would have to get some sort of developer certificate
[12:45] Kadah Coba: The ones for this https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/changeset/d327dcc8ae51
[12:45] Jonathan Yap: The one that where you have a 50% chance in an old viewer of having a copy & wear operation fail
[12:45] Qie Niangao: yeah, Latif, that seems braindamaged, to try to control abuse by screening *creator* rather than *owner* (specifically landowner, for llTeleportAgent, at least)
[12:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: ... lol ' // Ignore any "you're going to break this item" messages. '
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: developer certificate sounds pretty good.
[12:46] Rex Cronon: not to everybody
[12:46] Latif Khalifa: nobody uses copy & wear when opening object contents anyway :P
[12:46] Liisa Runo: _nobody_
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: are you everybody, Rex?
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:47] Qie Niangao: I don't care one way or another about "developer certificate", but it's not an effective way to control abuse, when the very same script is abusive or benign, depending on owner.
[12:47] Rex Cronon: i am part of it, vincent
[12:47] Andrew Linden: No, I don't know where those inventory service changes are at.
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: I'm sure you'll be fine
[12:47] Latif Khalifa: Rex, you can use fewer and fewer things in sl it seems. Meshes, and now LSL functions...
[12:48] Rex Cronon: looks that way
[12:48] Kallista Destiny: Developer Certificate for writing LSL code? You're kidding right?
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: Kall, I'm sure there's more to come
[12:48] Latif Khalifa: Kallista for new Linden Realms stuff
[12:48] Latif Khalifa: like forced teleport and hud attach
[12:48] Rex Cronon: not for writing, for using "special" functions in lsl
[12:48] Simon Linden: There are some serious permissions issues to sort out before we could release the new features. It would be a disaster to send them out without some checks and balances
[12:48] Kallista Destiny: Next you're going to require a developer Certificate to build things?
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: think of this way... if you're tired of random greifers... why we must not do something about it?
[12:49] Rex Cronon: kallista. that is already in pleace if u want to make meshes
[12:49] Kallista Destiny: Because you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: and of course... all of those new functions aren't going to be script friendly for newbies
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: so... what's the problem?
[12:50] Latif Khalifa: some people cannot upload meshes, like Rex, due to the paymant info demand
[12:50] Qie Niangao: I'm fine if only The Blessed can *use* a script with llTeleportAgent, but constraining who writes the script is not relevant.
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: then Rex can't be trusted! :P
[12:50] Kallista Destiny: This used to be the land that the users built. Pertty soon it will be second Blue Mars.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: what latif said is true
[12:50] Latif Khalifa: Vincent, the problem is that you can justify about everything in SL with "but griefers will use it"
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: of course but you can't easily get it back once you get banned for it
[12:51] don Berithos: Andrew if i could on the reseting of the protected wates in ABU haughts area and dire strait could we have a satirday or late friday night reset in those regions a server question
[12:51] NeoBokrug Elytis: I don't have a problem with limiting advanced LSL functions to people who know what they're doing in SL.
[12:51] Rex Cronon: how nice when "trust" can be bought:)
[12:51] Kallista Destiny: You mean justify blocking just about everything in SL
[12:51] NeoBokrug Elytis: Rather than some day - account coming in and explodion your region.
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: I was kidding, Rex
[12:51] Latif Khalifa: like every internet censorship law is against "child porn", so you cannot argue against the censorship. just used as a strawman
[12:51] Simon Linden: We can probably argue about this for the remaining 10 minutes, or possibly bring up something else
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yes please
[12:51] Andrew Linden: don, could you rephrase that question?
[12:51] Vincent Nacon whispers: moving on!
[12:51] don Berithos: thats was my point
[12:52] Andrew Linden: You want some regions to be restarted on Friday/Saturday?
[12:52] Kallista Destiny: Well that means ther you 'might' be financially liable for your actions. That is one definition of trust.
[12:52] don Berithos: yes please
[12:52] Lestat Demain: yes can u change the sandbox settings in goguen?
[12:52] NeoBokrug Elytis: 99.5% of the LSL functions are still free for everyone to use, and a function that has a significant impact on user experience needs to be evaluated, and maybe even limited to people who've proved themselves.
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: ah good point, Kall
[12:52] don Berithos: the demand and activite will be greater on the weekend
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:52] NeoBokrug Elytis: Bring up something else please. :P
[12:53] don Berithos: we used to call for resets i was wondering if we could just schedule them
[12:53] Lestat Demain: so the safe zone actually eats griefer stuff instead of letting them sit on the border replicating?
[12:53] Liisa Runo: SVC-7033
[12:53] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7033
[#SVC-7033] Fix old sandboxes
[12:53] Andrew Linden: don, I don't think we offer a "restart on schedule" option for mainland regions
[12:54] Rex Cronon: if it crahses, then it will restart;)
[12:55] don Berithos: ok ill go back to calling it in i guess getting them reset
[12:55] don Berithos: wheres that notecard mmmmmmmmm
[12:55] don Berithos: lol
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: That might be a reasonable request for a feature
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: with the some limit on the number of restarts.
[12:55] Andrew Linden: What regions were those don? I'm not finding "ABU Heights" or "Dire Straits"
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] JoyofRLC Acker: NeoBokrug ... what eaxctly are yu suggesting:? m sorry I think I may have missed part of what you were saying.
[12:56] Flip Idlemind: I went AFK for a second but Im back. I don't really like the idea of "only special people can script", even if it applies to a tiny fraction of features.
[12:56] Simon Linden: Liisa - I'm not sure who would be responsible for that bug, but I'll point it out to one of the people that does in-world content
[12:56] Flip Idlemind: Buuuuuut arbitrarily teleporting people and attaching stuff to them isn't good either, of course
[12:56] JoyofRLC Acker: FLIP I agree ... quis custodiet and all that
[12:56] don Berithos: after the rolling resets what we find by sunday the sims need a reset
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: Flip as far as I can tell the actual context was Viewer devlopment.
[12:56] Liisa Runo: dont stress it, ill send ticket to michael some day and explain the situation to him, im sure he will put the proper parcel settings in
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: Which seems to have been generalized
[12:57] Lestat Demain: lol this reminds me of dodgeball
[12:57] Flip Idlemind: Hmm, well when I left we were still on LR features
[12:57] Simon Linden: That's who I had in mind too :)
[12:57] don Berithos: thanks well give support a call see if we can perhaps at least get the regions names posted in the office or a vurtuail noteboard you may have
[12:58] Andrew Linden: don, I'm curious: what were the region names again?
[12:58] don Berithos: it the dire strait areas abu haunt area
[12:59] don Berithos: there a big island in the middle north of the blake sea
[12:59] don Berithos: a fairly new sea region
[12:59] Andrew Linden: oh, I thought those were the region names
[12:59] don Berithos: no theres like 20 some sims at least
[12:59] Andrew Linden: but the region name is something more like "Blake Sea - Somethingorother"?
[13:00] Andrew Linden: ah ok, you're talking about the whole Blake Sea
[13:00] don Berithos: no its dire strait
[13:00] don Berithos: its not part of the blake sea
[13:00] don Berithos: ill send you a phoo
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Huh. I can't find a region named "Dire *"
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: Thank you for a most enlightening meeting
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Well, I'm intrested in why the region crossings would have gone bad in Blake Sea again.
[13:01] JoyofRLC Acker: Andrew ... Ahab's Haunt is at the ctnre
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: guess she gotta run
[13:01] Andrew Linden: I'll try to dig around.
[13:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good chat
[13:01] Jonathan Yap: Shoot, out of time, I will ask later about an idea I had for CoarseLocation
[13:01] JoyofRLC Acker: Yes me too andrrew
[13:01] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: but yeah, thanks
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Ah ok, I see Ahab's Haunt
[13:02] Flip Idlemind: If anyone's wondering what I'm in, it's a scale model of how "tall" sims are vs. how wide they are
[13:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon, andrew and everybody else. have a nice day all.
[13:02] JoyofRLC Acker: Andrew, I havent had a chance to check the serveer forum etc ... when Ive got up to speed Ill get back to you.
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: oh I thought you were in jail
[13:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: some sort of jail that tease you of freedom at the top
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks all. Have fun.
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you, Lindens.
[13:03] Simon Linden: Interesting Flip ... I wonder if there might be some easy features possible by slicing that up better
[13:03] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everyone
[13:03] Ima Mechanique: FLIP I thought it was just one of those dance cages you see in clubs ;-)
[13:03] Lestat Demain: hey u looks like a government worker
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