Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.01.31
|Prev 2012.01.27||Next 2012.02.03|
List of Speakers
|Andrew Linden||Arawn Spitteler||Draconis Neurocam|
|Fred Allandale||Jonathan Yap||Kadah Coba|
|Kallista Destiny||Kaluura Boa||Kelly Linden|
|Leonel Iceghost||Liisa Runo||Motor Loon|
|Qie Niangao||Rex Cronon||Sahkolihaa Contepomi|
|Sebastean Steamweaver||Sera Lok||Simon Linden|
|TankMaster Finesmith||Tillie Ariantho||Vincent Nacon|
[12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.
[12:02] Simon Linden: Tillie - that sounds pretty straight forward, is there a VWR jira for it?
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone
[12:02] Tillie Ariantho: I need a maximum of maybe 20 clicks in the snapshot window to make the client crash.
[12:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I think there's an SH jira for snapshots causing a crash.
[12:02] Tillie Ariantho: Simon: I did many jiras for the snapshot window, gave up finally.
[12:03] Tillie Ariantho: The memory problem in snapshots exists at least since 1.18...
[12:03] Simon Linden: ok ... I still can't figure out the difference between VWR and SH bugs
[12:03] Jonathan Yap: The snapshot code was redone recently
[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: SH is done by shining team - Runitai, Vir, Bao, sometimes Charlar chips in.
[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And they go into shining-fixes before Snowstorm.
[12:03] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Mostly stuff like graphics, memory, and mesh.
[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Kelly.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: Ok I don't have any news. Perhaps Simon or Kelly have some?
[12:04] Simon Linden: Well, there was a rollout this morning: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-01-30/td-p/1359977
[12:04] Simon Linden: llSetRegionPos() is almost on the whole grid, it should be 100% tomorrow
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: why can't the snapshot button simply be a macro key for Print Screen key and paste the clipboard into window?
[12:05] Simon Linden: Great question for those viewer guys, Vincent :)
[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Because sprint screen will do all monitors in view?
[12:05] Simon Linden: but that would give you the whole screen, right?
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: yup
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: cause it's good enough
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:05] Simon Linden: You can always just hit that key if that's waht you want
[12:06] Tillie Ariantho: I use fraps, it's more stable ...
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: I know, I was being smartass about snapshot
[12:06] Simon Linden: You also get the viewer UI junk in there too, which people usually dont want
[12:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I don't think people want to keep turning their UI off and cropping the title bar out.
[12:06] Kadah Coba: alt+print screen will do the current window in focus
[12:06] Tillie Ariantho: and btw. the second fraps refuses to create a snapshot of the SL window, SL has a memory problem... if I do then a snapshot in SL, it crashes instantly.
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: true but it could be marco with Ctrl Alt F1
[12:06] Simon Linden: Anyway, there will be another server maintenance release going into RC tomorrow, I believe on the Magnum channel
[12:07] Jonathan Yap: All my snapshots are so I can crop a part of the UI to paste into a jira :)
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: time for news!
[12:07] Kadah Coba: ctrl+alt+F# conflict with linux
[12:07] Simon Linden: The one going out tomorrow has some performance improvements with some LSL list functions
[12:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yay, optimisations.
[12:08] Vincent Nacon: Kelly's work
[12:08] Vincent Nacon: ?
[12:08] Simon Linden: Right, you can express your reactions at Kelly :)
[12:08] Vincent Nacon: yup, will be holding my breath
[12:08] Fred Allandale: Any comments or discussion on the new llGiveInventory throttle?
[12:08] Motor Loon: so working this time simon ? ,_)
[12:09] Simon Linden: For really hard-core list functions, there are some pretty good speedups
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: hold on Fred... they're giving news
[12:09] Fred Allandale: OK
[12:09] Simon Linden: Yes Motor, we really hope it's working 100% this time
[12:09] Motor Loon: Sounds good.
[12:10] Motor Loon: but you hoped that last time too right?
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: he's only human
[12:10] Simon Linden: There are also fixes for SVC-7348 and SVC-7443
[12:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7348
[#SVC-7348] moving_end() event executes on moving, script-rezzed physical objects
[12:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7443
[#SVC-7443] Telehubs overridden if teleporting a friend/avatar to a region where telehub exists outside of the telehub area
[12:10] Andrew Linden: I don't have any news today, except that I think I fixed the last 8-way neighbor bug... which won't be in RC until some later date.
[12:10] Motor Loon: nah humans dont have God powers
[12:10] Simon Linden: Also (I really hope) SVC-7386, but that one is a really strange bug
[12:10] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7386
[#SVC-7386] Transaction failure due to Linden's Internal error
[12:11] Simon Linden: The release tomorrow will also have the new code for the CoarseLocationUpdate message where altitudes over 1020m will be sent as 255 instead of 0
[12:12] Simon Linden: So the mini-maps should start behaving a bit better, and Jonathan's viewer code can do better
[12:12] Simon Linden: That's it for me ... Kelly, did you have anything else?
[12:12] Motor Loon: Any more info on the region crossing improvement work?
[12:12] Jonathan Yap: The viewer change is working it's way through the QA process
[12:12] Vincent Nacon trying to contains himself from being glee schoolgirl about coarselocation update.
[12:13] Simon Linden: That got stuck on a few bugs, Motor ... I'm not sure if it will be in the RC channel tomorrow or not
[12:13] Motor Loon: okies
[12:13] Motor Loon: damn bugs
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: any news on any functions stuff?
[12:14] Simon Linden: yes, the changes there are pretty ambitious - I don't think they will do much for the crossing times, but eventually the lag caused to everyone else should get better
[12:14] Kelly Linden: I don't have anything specific to bring up.
[12:14] Motor Loon: time is ok now, if we could just get them stable
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Ok, so the table is open.
[12:15] Kelly Linden: I've commented on SVC-7631 and in the forum thread on this weeks releases about the llGiveInventory throttle.
[12:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7631
[#SVC-7631] New rate throttle on llGiveInventory
[12:15] Fred Allandale: Yes.
[12:16] Fred Allandale: so I'm not clear on the burst rate limit. Per what unit of time.
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, the lsl wiki for that function needs to be updated
[12:16] Kelly Linden: There is indeed a new throttle in place to combat security and griefing issues that were quite large in scope.
[12:16] Kelly Linden: Indeed Jonathan.
[12:17] Fred Allandale: Is it identical to the IM throttle?
[12:17] Kelly Linden: Correct Fred, it is identical
[12:17] Kelly Linden: The burst rate is 2.5k / 30 minutes.
[12:17] Fred Allandale: So in testing I found the throttle triggers after 90 seconds at 10 gives per second. So is there a short term throttle too?
[12:18] Jonathan Yap: Were you testing after having done nothing for 1 hr?
[12:18] Kelly Linden: That is only 900 gives and should not hit the throttle by itself.
[12:18] Fred Allandale: Yes. Kept moving to different magnum sandboxes.
[12:18] Rex Cronon: why don't u let users set the throttle in their viewers?
[12:18] Fred Allandale: Well it does.
[12:18] Simon Linden: The griefers won't do that, Rex
[12:19] Fred Allandale: I tested with single give first to be sure there was not blocking.
[12:19] Kelly Linden: Rex: the issues this throttle addresses are server side and include grid wide system including the systems that manage dwell as well as other things.
[12:19] Rex Cronon: no. i mean i want to specify what is max nr of items i want to receive lets say in 10 seconds
[12:19] Qie Niangao: That might be a good add to the viewer, too, but not gonna help with this issue.
[12:19] Kelly Linden: That would be a good viewer feature, but would not help what this throttle is designed for.
[12:20] Fred Allandale: In my application I am not sending multiple items to one avatar. I am sending one item to a long list of avatars.
[12:20] Rex Cronon: that value would be stored on sim:)
[12:20] Rex Cronon: and the sim would look at it and determine how much and how fast to send things
[12:20] Kelly Linden: Fred: I would be interested in a repro for hitting the block at 900 gives.
[12:21] Fred Allandale: The one in the jira does it.
[12:21] Fred Allandale: just a loop in multiple scripts.
[12:21] Fred Allandale: 30 scripts = 15/second.
[12:21] Fred Allandale: 20 scripts = 10/second
[12:22] Kelly Linden: Hrm I thought I read your repro as going to 30k gives in
[12:22] Kelly Linden: in 200 seconds
[12:22] Fred Allandale: It also varies by sim. Some have hit the limit at 2/sec others at 8-10.
[12:22] Fred Allandale: My product is limited at 10 gives per second. Its now broken.
[12:23] Fred Allandale: llGiveInventory has a 2 second built in sleep.
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: maybe whatever or however this "creator" programs talked about allowing you to do more could also let you bypass the limit in inventory give?
[12:23] Fred Allandale: I have a max of 50 scripts, but I throttle it back to 10 per second now.
[12:24] Kelly Linden: A product that gives at 10 / second will hit the throttle (the burst cap of 2.5k) in 250 seconds or ~4 minutes.
[12:25] Fred Allandale: Yes, I agree. I observed it at 90 seconds in several sims.
[12:25] Kelly Linden: I'll give that a look as well.
[12:26] Jonathan Yap: Does this rule apply collectively to group owned objects in a region?
[12:26] Fred Allandale: Anyway, that really doesn't matter. I just need to know what is a safe max average send rate.
[12:26] Fred Allandale: Sounds like it would be about 1.4 per second.
[12:27] Vincent Nacon: maybe it's a good idea to script a "Sold Out" event for your products... (ironically gives marketing boys an excuse to raise price when supply demands)
[12:27] Kelly Linden: 2,500 per 1800 seconds should be the safe limit: this is for all objects you own in the region.
[12:27] Fred Allandale: If I throttle to 1 per second, I should be safe, right?
[12:27] Kelly Linden: yes
[12:27] Tillie Ariantho: Thats pretty slow.
[12:27] Andrew Linden: So yes, there is one throttle for collectively owned group objects.
[12:28] Qie Niangao: Presumably objects deeded to different groups would each get their own limits, so multiplexing the Gives among them would be an obvious work-around for legit businesses. Hopefully inconvenient for griefers.
[12:28] Rex Cronon: u can't tell your customer you r sold out
[12:28] Fred Allandale: The reason I ask about short term bursts is because at 1 second average, i actually do 50 gives at once, then idle for 50 seconds.
[12:28] Vincent Nacon: that didn't stop movies theaters
[12:28] Kelly Linden: That should be fine Fred
[12:28] Tillie Ariantho: I mean people dont want to have a script running for a day or two or three to just send out updates of their products ...
[12:28] Simon Linden: I'd really love to see products that are actually selling at that rate
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: Or airlines
[12:29] Fred Allandale: OK, we'll see. I've already had one report (unverified) of hitting the limit a 1 per second.
[12:29] Rex Cronon: if u need to deliver multiple no-copy items to customers...
[12:29] Sera Lok: agrees w/tillie, too much time for sim to have issues/crash etc :/ forget about building a large customer base in a mailing list if you can't get things out
[12:29] Jonathan Yap: I don't use them, but it seems like it would affect subscribe-o-matics
[12:29] Arawn Spitteler: What if someone's demonstratying a vendor at show and tell?
[12:29] Fred Allandale: I've got about 1500 mailing list kiosk out there set at 10/second (working fine past 3 years).
[12:29] Vincent Nacon: sometimes you gotta be wise with your updates and make best use of it
[12:29] Fred Allandale: So I"m expecting a lot of IMs.
[12:29] Qie Niangao: One problem is that subscriber lists grow monotonically. People with 20K subscribers are probably sending 18K to dead accounts.
[12:30] Tillie Ariantho: Sending out to 1000 customers is already 17 minutes ...
[12:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: Reminds me that I need to rescript my vendors with the new transaction code.
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Kelly Linden: Arawn with a max of 100 people in a region at a time for such a show and tell they could send out 25 products to each person attending every half hour.
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: maybe check their online status before sending?
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: even though that has delay
[12:31] Kelly Linden: Sending to 1k people is under the max burst cap. You can do that as quick as you are capable of.
[12:31] Kelly Linden: I
[12:31] Draconis Neurocam: what happens if the throttle is hit, is there a way for a script to tell currently?
[12:31] Leonel Iceghost: the problem is not selling, but updates when a new verion is out
[12:31] Fred Allandale: Not true, Kelly. I got the limit at 30 seconds with 15/seceond ratre.
[12:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't think so draconis.
[12:31] Arawn Spitteler: Is there a silent fail, or a failure event?
[12:31] Rex Cronon: right. the updates r going to kill u, if u have hundreds-thousands of customers:(
[12:32] Sera Lok: mhm :(
[12:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: There is no failure event currently. I would love to have one though.
[12:32] Fred Allandale: Try it.
[12:32] Kelly Linden: Fred: I will attempt to reproduce that because what you are reporting is well below what we tested and found internally.
[12:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Script-managed error handling has been a subject of discussion for a while.
[12:32] Kelly Linden: Fred: if that is true (15/sec hits the cap in 30 seconds) then that is indeed a bug.
[12:32] Fred Allandale: OK thanks. I will do same to make sure its repeatable.
[12:32] Fred Allandale: thanks for your candid response, even if I don't like it.
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: the thing is... you should also re-think about how you handle the update differently from giving out to people as requested
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: better when people rez their stuff, it check for update then
[12:33] Draconis Neurocam: the error handling could be done through the new transaction_result event
[12:33] Arawn Spitteler: Silent Fail, when delivering a contracted event could be reportable.
[12:33] Vincent Nacon: than trying to pass out to everyone the update at the same time
[12:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'd personally prefer it be given its own event, instead of through an event intended for something else.
[12:34] Motor Loon: mabye just send them an IM instead and ask then to come to the store and click an update-vendor, that'll cut it down to those that really want it
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: yeah that too
[12:34] Kallista Destiny: That still hits the same limit
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: but...
[12:34] Motor Loon: Hippo tehc seems happy with that solution
[12:34] Jonathan Yap: IMs can be capped/lost too
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: it might hit the sim's agent limit
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: crowding the sim
[12:35] Tillie Ariantho: Send"All object IM's are throttled at >2500 per 30mins, per owner, per region in a rolling window."
[12:35] Arawn Spitteler: Crowded sim means everybody doesn't click at once.
[12:35] Tillie Ariantho: Thats not any better
[12:35] Kelly Linden: It is an identical throttle actually, just a different way of describing it.
[12:36] Sera Lok: so merchants who don't know about the new rollout etc... they will find out when their large mailing list starts erroring? will there be a blog announcement about this or something similar... something in merchant forum perhaps? because this is obviously already affecting many, many merchants
[12:36] Vincent Nacon: as for cars and motorcycles update, it's normally done checking for update when rezzed.
[12:36] Motor Loon: Thats how I handle it
[12:36] Tillie Ariantho: There's shops that just send out notecards for new products, no updates.
[12:37] Vincent Nacon: it has been proven to be better way to handle the load. For me and few vehicles developers friends
[12:37] Motor Loon: then you dont even need to tell them.... they'll find out soon enough
[12:37] Sera Lok: right...
[12:37] Tillie Ariantho: People don't want to click a "What's new" box for every show they like...
[12:37] Tillie Ariantho: shop
[12:38] Tillie Ariantho: And besides that, when sending out updates you might be trying to get back customers...?
[12:38] Sera Lok: that's great for updating products, but what about mailing lists that people voluntarily join and want updates on
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: well to answer that... it resorts to my opinion about what I think of it
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: and I think it's silly
[12:38] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm personally acquainted with a few developers who have mailing lists that are well in the thousands.
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: I don't even use it myself for other's creation
[12:39] Sera Lok: yep
[12:39] Qie Niangao: The longer the list has been around, the higher the percentage of dead accounts on it.
[12:39] Andrew Linden: where "mailing list" = "inventory update distribution list"?
[12:39] Motor Loon: Not a fan of the "maling lists" myself either
[12:39] Sera Lok: vincent, you aren't everybody ;) but good to know your opinion.
[12:39] Vincent Nacon: might be better to use RSS from blog or twitter or something like that
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: yeah... I'm not everyone, and that's a problem
[12:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes in most cases. I've helped a few of them by scripting delivery systems for them that accessed their servers and sent out updates/notecards accordingly.
[12:40] Fred Allandale: I've got quite a few customers with 8-10K subscribers. Its going to increase their send time from 16 minutes to almost 3 hours.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: just have to look for more options
[12:40] Sera Lok: i use all those. by far mailing list is what people join, over twitter, groups, etc
[12:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: There are also SL "magazines' which daily send out such things, like the Primgraph. Landmarks, notecards with program agendas, etc.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: some times people's opinion about how they want to be updated isn't as logical enough to help you out in time of needs
[12:40] Kadah Coba: Too bad Direct Delivery can't handle this use case.
[12:40] Kelly Linden: 10k sends from a single owner/region in 16 minutes is really not a rate we can support.
[12:41] Sera Lok: obviously people will need to find other solutions. my question was WILL LL be notifying anyone of this or just let merchants with large mailing lists fail and get all pissed and leave SL?
[12:41] Fred Allandale: Would have been nice to know that 3 years ago when I developed it.
[12:41] Motor Loon: Times change
[12:42] Sera Lok: i'm asking if LL will be aiding the merchants who pay the tier and commissions, etc etc... who will now be screwed and may not even know why or how.
[12:42] Rex Cronon: it is a problem when somebody send u 10k items, but is not a problem when u have to send 2-10 items to 10k customers. just in cas is not clear
[12:42] Simon Linden: We realize this change can cause problems, but it unfortunately had to be done. We had some serious system failures in the past few months due to the griefing problems
[12:42] Kelly Linden: Sera: we are working on communications for it. I don't really have more to say than that on it.
[12:42] Rex Cronon: kelly, what do u mean a sim can't support a owner sending 10k updates?
[12:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't believe that they will all get so upset as to leave. There are a few other options, and I can understand them not being able to support it. I think it might be better to focus on viable solutions. i.e. one that immediately comes to mind, for voluntary sendouts, is batching deliveries that are sent at different times.
[12:43] Kelly Linden: Rex: For our back end systems it IS a problem wihen you send 2-10 items to 10k customers in only a few minutes.
[12:43] Rex Cronon: but the sims did that for years
[12:43] Sera Lok: thank you Kelly.. for that.. it would be very appreciated by those who don't come to meetings and don't check JIRAs obsessively and will just end up being disapointed once again with LLs treatment of issues and lack of communication or information
[12:45] Kelly Linden: Rex: It has recently developed into a severe security and stability issue.
[12:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: For people who have check for updates on rez, I'd recommend setting up a queuing system, and the message changed "You will receive your update within X amount of time." That way you can batch those deliveries as well, and break it up enough that it won't cause the system to choke.
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[12:45] Motor Loon: I think this is probably a good thing... we'll adapt or find other way to do these things... anything that helps lessen the load on the backend stuff is good in my book
[12:45] Fred Allandale: Kelly, do you see any workarounds for legitimate mailing list and other purposes?
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: "Life always find a way"
[12:45] Kelly Linden: Fred: Yes, send more slowly.
[12:45] Fred Allandale: Other than just slowing things to a crawl?
[12:46] Fred Allandale: Never mind.
[12:46] Tillie Ariantho: O.o
[12:46] Sera Lok: i'm just saying... if people don't even know what the problem is.. and LL is not providing any information other than JIRA and release notes, and it is affecting many, many merchants.. then that is a problem
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: so far, I've seen good developers use mailing system outside of SL
[12:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, I don't think you'd necessarily need to slow things to a crawl. If you can calculate the maximum you can send without hitting the cap, you can send deliveries at different times. For the most part, I doubt the users on the other end will notice.
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: blog and twitter
[12:46] Rex Cronon: well. i am not affected by is, as i don't use update, but there are at least hundreds that will be affected
[12:46] Tillie Ariantho: So we need to set up update/mailing list servers all over the grid and send from a 100 alts to get out all updates/news? :P
[12:46] Tillie Ariantho: Cant be the right solution ... O.o
[12:47] Rex Cronon: not affected by it*
[12:48] Kaluura Boa: Altho I've never heard of such "mail bombing" in SL, that's the solution for the griefers... Spread their "bombers" across regions and alts...
[12:48] Motor Loon: You know the real solution here is to eliminate greifers right it's soo simple to do
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: atomic mails!
[12:49] Sebastean Steamweaver: Unfortunately, eliminating griefers has caused many a debate at these very office hours before.
[12:49] Tillie Ariantho: So a shop owner with like 50 satellite stores will set up a 'mail' server in each shop to send 1000 messages/objects out or is he still getting throttled because its the same sender? ^^
[12:49] Fred Allandale: Sebastian: spreading out the deliveries won't work for things like sales or events. Owners want to send out the notices just before the event.
[12:49] Tillie Ariantho: (and one master server to trigger them all) ;)
[12:50] Motor Loon: hence; group notices
[12:50] Simon Linden: Life and SL would be a lot easier without greifers -- we spend way too much time putting in limits to prevent people from intentionally breaking things
[12:50] Tillie Ariantho: People always will find a way around limitations ...
[12:50] Kallista Destiny: (and in the darkness bind them)
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: maybe it's time to bring back credit info requirement?
[12:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: For sales, it could, but it would require scheduling of the updates - starting to send them earlier, etc. For events, I can understand that such reminders would be limited.
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:50] Fred Allandale: Hey, maybe we should also throttle SL group notices.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: i curious, how long should take to send 2-10 items to 10k customers? so that there r no sim problems
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: if people don't have money... what good will they do for SL anyway?
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Group notices already have a cap of 200/day
[12:51] Motor Loon: You know, all you have to do Simon - it's stop allowing non-verified avatars to use any features that might be misused.
[12:51] Sera Lok: most customers prefer the lists, because groups fill up too fast if you are a shopper
[12:51] Kelly Linden: With 1 llGiveInventory per item it will take a while rex.
[12:51] Andrew Linden: Hrm... it occurs to me that the inventory system wasn't really designed to handle "mailing list" types of applications, but there appears to be a strong need for such bulk message sends in SL.
[12:51] Tillie Ariantho: Motor: that will block out many shop owners ...
[12:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: Do you have an idea for a solution Andrew?
[12:51] Andrew Linden: No definite ideas yet, but I'm thinking.
[12:51] Sera Lok: indeed and quite a market for what is available now
[12:51] Motor Loon: Not really Tillie... they'd just get verified and let LL know who they are in RL.
[12:52] Rex Cronon: it shouldn't take more than 1 minute per 1000 items
[12:52] Kelly Linden: Andrew: And it is also unfortunate that the group notice system which is designed for that kind of use is insufficient (or too buggy?) to use for it.
[12:52] Kallista Destiny: Yes but then LL would have someone to go after
[12:52] Andrew Linden: right.
[12:52] Kaluura Boa: llBulkGiveInventory(list avatars, list items)?
[12:52] Fred Allandale: Jonathan: thats a per recipient cap, not a cap on the number of people you can send to.
[12:52] Motor Loon: When LL know who you are, then you are accountable for your actions... when people are accountable for their actions they DONT greif/steal/cheat/misuse/etc
[12:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: One thing that comes to mind: do you recall a discussion a long time ago about atomizing the groups into separate, smaller groups that could be dedicated to certain functions? I.e. a group with no chat, land rights, etc, that was purely used for updates and announcements?
[12:53] Draconis Neurocam: if only the workflow for putting items into an object was easier, such as transfering them as copies from items rezzed in world, rather than having to put them into the inventory of yourself or something else first, so that boxing items would be faster
[12:53] Kallista Destiny: well less people do, and they donlt do it as often.
[12:54] Fred Allandale: Rex: Well as of this week you can only send 60 items in 1 minute.
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: freedom = anarchy... guideline = safety freedom + guideline = government.
[12:54] Simon Linden: I wonder if updates or notices can be done via the new marketplace direct delivery
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: one way or another
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: it could
[12:54] Rex Cronon: 60 items per minute? oh boy, that will kill lots of things
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: as it should have been
[12:54] Andrew Linden: No Draconis, I don't remember that particular proposal, however I do remember talking about how groups are used for many different purposes, some of which were not envisioned when groups were first implemented.
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Possibly, but I'm not sure that people would want to go through that Simon. A lot of these subscriptions are done in-world, and I'm not aware of any in-world interfacing with scripts that can be done with that as of yet.
[12:55] Sera Lok: sure as long as you aren't sending to people who don't OPT IN. and how would that deal with people who don't buy on marketplace
[12:55] Draconis Neurocam: that was sebastean andrew, not myself
[12:56] Simon Linden: Right, I'
[12:56] Simon Linden: ... I'm just thinking outloud
[12:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: The discussion on groups is a very old one. We also had one at Which Linden's office hours.
[12:57] Fred Allandale: Is the griefing issue the number of gives to a single avatar, or just the give rate regardless of destination?
[12:57] Rex Cronon: it seems the rate is the problem
[12:57] Sera Lok: that JIRA is blowing up btw
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: Both
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Maybe we need a new inventory item type which represents a mailing list, to which people can subscribe.
[12:58] Fred Allandale: would there be a way to throttle only the number of gives to the same UUID?
[12:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: That would be an interesting solution.
[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith: fred, are you talking about the limit of 42 items?
[12:58] Leonel Iceghost: manual inventory giving is also throtled?
[12:58] Fred Allandale: No, the llGiveInventory throttel.
[12:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: But if you did that, I would strongly suggest being able to manage that list via script, since many mailing lists are also stored off-world.
[12:58] Kelly Linden: the throttle is specifically for llGiveInventory to agents.
[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith: ah ok
[12:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: That would allow the import/export easily adding/removing of people from the list.
[12:59] Jonathan Yap: This also applies to GiveInventoryList ?
[12:59] Kadah Coba: Too bad web profiles are so poorly integrated with SL, it might be neat just to be able to "fallow" a store
[12:59] Leonel Iceghost: so it wouldn't take much to make a bot, not even for grieffers right?
[12:59] Fred Allandale: Thanks Andrew. Kill my product complete, why don't you? (LOL)
[12:59] Kelly Linden: No. llGiveInventoryList is unaffected
[12:59] Arawn Spitteler: Could the throttle include an automatic sleep?
[12:59] Fred Allandale: Same affect.
[12:59] Fred Allandale: auto sleep
[13:00] Kelly Linden: There is already a 2sec sleep that is trivially worked around.
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Jonathan Yap: It would be helpful to have this chat log put up on the wiki
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Sure, I'll publish it within the hour.
[13:00] Leonel Iceghost: Andrew, or you can improve group notices, and allow to have more groups, not just 42
[13:00] Fred Allandale: thanks for the spirit discussion. At least we can talk candidly about this even if we don't agree.
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: for all scripts in an object or perhaps for all scripts owned by user in the rgion
[13:01] Sera Lok: lots of helpful info coming on the JIRA also
[13:01] Motor Loon: "just" 42
[13:01] Rex Cronon: usually andrew posts the log, u just need a link to it
[13:01] Leonel Iceghost: yes just
[13:01] Andrew Linden: sometimes it takes me a few days
[13:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you Kelly, Andrew, and Simon for the office hours
[13:01] Andrew Linden: but usually I try to publish right after the meeting
[13:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'd send you the log Jon, but unfortunately i only have about half of it. I came in after the discussion already started.
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: Thanks you
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Andrew & Simon.
[13:02] Jonathan Yap: All those people writing to svc-7631 are not reading what was written before; having a web page to look it would be more helpful
[13:02] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good disussion. It's really great feedback
[13:02] Vincent Nacon: aye
[13:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe, thanks for taking our "feedback" so graciously.
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks all. Have fun!
[13:03] Motor Loon: okies... tc guys, til next time...
[13:03] Draconis Neurocam: thank you simon, kelly and andrew for giving us a place to have such a discussion
[13:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: I still owe you that fruit basket.
[13:03] Sera Lok: thank you for listening! merchants want to do the right thing... we just don't always know what it is and need your help sometimes.
[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: Take care andrew, simon
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc andrew, simon, kelly and everybody else
[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: See you
[13:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: And, I return to game-ing. Creation. Have a good day all!
[13:04] Simon Linden: Bye everyone, see you next time
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