Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.02.28

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Attica Bekkers Davido Chrome
DesolateStudios Draconis Neurocam Elisha Richez
Fancy Detector Fine Caliber Flip Idlemind
Jonathan Yap Kallista Destiny Kaluura Boa
Kelly Linden Latif Khalifa Liisa Runo
Nalates Urriah Qie Niangao Raz Welles
Renae Daines Rex Cronon Sahkolihaa Contepomi
Sera Lok Simon Linden Skills Hak
Talarus Luan TankMaster Finesmith Techwolf Lupindo
Tiberious Neruda Vincent Nacon Yuzuru Jewell

Transcript

[12:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Hello.

[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi andrew

[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Kelly. xP

[12:04] Tiberious Neruda: fashionably late, eh, Lindens?

[12:04] Kallista Destiny: Hi Kelly, Andrew

[12:04] Andrew Linden: Sorry I'm late. I almost forgot to attend but Simon pinged me in IRC to let me know he'd be a little late today.

[12:04] Rex Cronon: am i flying

[12:04] Davido Chrome: Rex, reach the ground allready! XD

[12:04] Rex Cronon: ?

[12:04] Rex Cronon: i can't

[12:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I gave Kelly a ping in IRC too. :p

[12:04] Jonathan Yap: Rex, fly up

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I was totally involved in the little python script I was debugging.

[12:05] Davido Chrome: Woosh

[12:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Simon.

[12:05] Jonathan Yap shouts: Rex, not that much!

[12:05] Simon Linden: Hi Grey People!

[12:05] Andrew Linden: ok so news...

[12:05] Fancy Detector: Andrew Linden has arrived!

[12:05] Rex Cronon: i had an "flight assist" on:)

[12:05] Fancy Detector: Simon Linden has arrived!

[12:06] Andrew Linden: First bit of news is that the land people got back to me and said everything is "Go" to enable return of encroaching objects on the mainland.

[12:06] Andrew Linden: So that ball in in my court.

[12:06] Kallista Destiny: Now that you're officially here, Hi simon

[12:06] Draconis Neurocam: woo

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I've got to write a script that will set it to "ON" for each mainland region.

[12:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh boy.

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I've done some research on how to actually do it, but have yet to write that little script.

[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm hoping to get it done this week, but when it goes live is not yet set.

[12:07] Davido Chrome: Maybe there is a clever griefer tool somewhere that you can use to propagate it?

[12:07] Andrew Linden: Second item: I've started working on updating the LSL text highlighting to get all the new function calls.

[12:08] Davido Chrome: Hip hip hurrah!

[12:08] Andrew Linden: I could have just updated the sytnax file manually, but I'm writing a script to do it for me.

[12:08] Draconis Neurocam: praise be to andrew

[12:08] Kelly Linden: thanks andrew

[12:08] Andrew Linden: The pathfinding project wants to supply the LSL syntax file from the server

[12:08] Andrew Linden: so we're working on that ultimate goal.

[12:08] Andrew Linden: We

[12:08] Kallista Destiny: while [ read host] ; do; rsh $host /usr/linden/bin/enable.encroachment 1;; done;

[12:09] Andrew Linden: We'll probably first just update the viewer, but eventually we'll have a way to download the LSL syntax file from the simulator host.

[12:09] Tiberious Neruda: this means highlighting new functions as they're added?

[12:10] Draconis Neurocam: so happy

[12:10] Andrew Linden: Third small item, another side project, is to add "parcel_multiplier" to llGetEnv() as requested by Talarus Luan.

[12:10] Andrew Linden: That will be easy, but just saying that it is on my list of side projects and I hope to get it done this week and into some maint-server project.

[12:11] Andrew Linden: Oh yeah, I'm probably going to add a "env" parameter for llGetEnv() that will list all variables available, for debugging and discovery.

[12:11] Kallista Destiny: Well if lsl is going to be volatile for a while, it might be good to work on the upload. instead of repeatedly mugning the viewer

[12:11] Andrew Linden: that's all for my news

[12:11] Simon Linden: I have a couple of things...

[12:11] Simon Linden: A while back someone asked about re-locating some of the sandboxes on the main grid. I believe that was done recently, or will be soon

[12:12] Jonathan Yap: Will there be some announcement about mainland encroachment or will people discover it on their own?

[12:12] Vincent Nacon: maybe both

[12:13] Raz Welles: Hey, I've been a bit out of touch and trying to find an answer- is navmesh originally generated by the client, or server?

[12:13] Tiberious Neruda: Andrew... you mentioned the syntax file being downloaded by the viewer... does that mean that we'll be able to see new functions being highlighted as they're implemented? For example, my client doesn't highlight llSetVelocity, but scripts using it still work...

[12:13] Vincent Nacon: server

[12:13] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, I'll probalby make sure that I can enable it. And once I'm sure my script works I'll tell our support team and give us an opportunity to make a blog announcement.

[12:13] Raz Welles: ok, ty :)

[12:13] Vincent Nacon: np

[12:14] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, the plan is for the viewer to be able to request the syntax file from the sim host, so the syntax file may be different from region to region, depending on the channel.

[12:14] Andrew Linden: So you might teleport somewhere and re-ask for the syntax.

[12:14] Simon Linden: Next, a new forum was recently set up to help extend the reach of the info from the user group

[12:15] Simon Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Simulator-Discussion-Group/ct-p/engine_room

[12:15] Tiberious Neruda: or am I completely mistaken in what the file does?

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Yes, this has to do with correct highlighting for llSetVelocity()

[12:16] Simon Linden: If anyone can't access that, and would like to, send me an IM

[12:16] Vincent Nacon: that's gonna be messy, Simon

[12:16] Tiberious Neruda: cool. I'm looking forward to that :3

[12:16] Vincent Nacon: oh not everyone can access that section of the forum?

[12:17] Simon Linden: Probably will be ... but hopefully it will augment what we do here

[12:17] Vincent Nacon: if it's "invite" only, then maybe it won't be so as messy

[12:17] Attica Bekkers: who can access it?

[12:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I can read it, but there's no ability to create threads my side.

[12:17] Davido Chrome: Should I add my post about the physics engine?

[12:17] Vincent Nacon: no

[12:17] Sera Lok: it's blank to me :( how does it extend the reach if people can't get to it?^^

[12:17] Tiberious Neruda: ...also, has there been any news on getting the clogged mesh queue problem fixed?

[12:18] Simon Linden: There are 50+ people on it now - culled from the visitors to this group

[12:18] Vincent Nacon: ah ok

[12:18] Vincent Nacon: well we'll see how that works out

[12:18] Davido Chrome: Vincent, no?

[12:18] Simon Linden: I'd love to see it grow and be active with sane dialog :)

[12:18] Vincent Nacon: that's right, no. :)

[12:18] Sera Lok: that would be refreshing:)

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh, I can start threads. Duh, not used to the forum.

[12:19] Vincent Nacon: yeah, I'd be worried that it'll get filled with complaints and whining

[12:19] Vincent Nacon: or "filled with sailors" for that matter

[12:19] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: LOL

[12:20] Renae Daines: That's why they make a delete button

[12:20] Vincent Nacon: ahh maybe add in some residents who can mod the section?

[12:20] Davido Chrome: Simon, is that forum the wrong place for the physics engine info I have gathered through the various user groups?

[12:20] Vincent Nacon: developers that is

[12:20] Simon Linden: At this point it's really a blank slate, so if anyone is inspired to start an interesting topic, go for it

[12:21] Andrew Linden: I think the physics engine is fair game for that forum.

[12:21] Simon Linden: No, I'd say it's a perfect place, if you want it read by this group

[12:21] Talarus Luan: Thanks, Andrew. :)

[12:21] Flip Idlemind: So it's like this meeting, all the time!

[12:21] Sera Lok: i just want to be able read it. . i promise i won't say anything useless^^

[12:21] Talarus Luan: (was late)

[12:21] Rex Cronon: i went to the link but i only see an empty board: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Simulator-Discussion-Group/ct-p/engine_room

[12:21] Davido Chrome: That would be nice. I am trying to make a usefull information, so it would be good if people could comment on it and tell me if I got it wrong.

[12:22] Simon Linden: But the forum is not for widespread publication - the regular forum areas would be the place if you want everyone to access it

[12:22] Kaluura Boa: Can't create a thread... No button at all.

[12:22] Tiberious Neruda: well... what's the latest on keeping the mesh queue from clogging?

[12:22] Rex Cronon: i have to login?

[12:22] Simon Linden: There's one topic in there, Rex

[12:22] Vincent Nacon: did you sign in?

[12:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Kaluura - click the 'Server User Grou[ link near the bottom.

[12:22] Simon Linden: Yes, you have to log in

[12:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I was confused at first.

[12:22] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: p*

[12:22] Flip Idlemind: Oh I wasn't logged in

[12:22] Kaluura Boa: Yeah... Login fixes everything...

[12:22] Rex Cronon: that explains it being blank

[12:22] Sera Lok: oh hey!! thanks... i forget the thing doesn't sign you in LOL

[12:22] Vincent Nacon: it's a closed forum from public

[12:22] Sera Lok: sighs

[12:22] Flip Idlemind: Yayyy I can get to it now

[12:23] Andrew Linden: heh, it was blank for me too. I just logged in.

[12:23] Kallista Destiny: Hmmmmmmmmm which group was the memberhsip culled from?

[12:23] Sera Lok: it were too simple to figure out. i guess. thanks ^^

[12:23] Rex Cronon: it needs a big red label that says: "You Need to LogIn":)

[12:23] Vincent Nacon: naa

[12:23] Nalates Urriah: Is it really closed off from the gen pop posting?

[12:24] Vincent Nacon: then non-developers would be all over it

[12:24] Flip Idlemind: So someone said the switch that turns off viewer tags got switched, but only on the main channel. Accurate?

[12:24] Kaluura Boa: It's not visible from the main forums page.

[12:24] Renae Daines: correct flip

[12:24] Simon Linden: Yes - I'm not sure of the value on hiding it that much, but at least that allows some freer discussion

[12:25] Andrew Linden: So yes, currently visible and postable by members only.j

[12:25] Kaluura Boa: Me neither... Having a checkbox to hide it in the viewers/TPVs would have been enough...

[12:25] Andrew Linden: The members list was culled from attendees to this user group.

[12:25] Kaluura Boa: (Talking about the viewer tag...)

[12:25] Rex Cronon: ok i see two threads

[12:25] Andrew Linden: So if you're not on the list, send a request to Simon, I think.

[12:26] Kallista Destiny: will do

[12:27] Flip Idlemind: I'm thinking about...making my viewer randomly color each person's name tag, to make up for the upcoming lack of colorfulness

[12:28] Kaluura Boa: Good idea... I don't care about the veiwers ppl use but I like the colors... Less boring...

[12:28] Renae Daines: Regarding the changes to TPV's and built in online notification policy. Are there any plans of changing llRequestAgentData(key, DATA_ONLINE); to the general populace?

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, renae

[12:29] Davido Chrome: Were you going to break temp upload as a side effect as well?

[12:29] Simon Linden: Yes, that gets complicated

[12:29] Nalates Urriah: Lots of user cases on llRequestAgentData

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: to brake temp upload would require braking the current baking system in general

[12:29] Sera Lok wishes LL wouldn't break that as so many businesses rely on that function... and not for griefing but for legitimate uses :(

[12:30] Renae Daines: Sadly changing that would break a lot of content, one major one being agent status via pagers

[12:30] Flip Idlemind: If my vote counts at all, I would really request that temporary texture uploads not be explicitly broken, they're REALLY useful.

[12:30] Kaluura Boa: Instead of punishing everybody, I would make more sense to punish the griefers... harshly and repeatedly!

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:31] Sera Lok: agrees with Kaluura^^

[12:31] Tiberious Neruda: Yeah... far too much stuff WILL be broken if you neuter that function

[12:31] Kallista Destiny: Clothing makesr, making patterns meet at the edges.

[12:31] Sera Lok: very *useful* stuff

[12:31] Vincent Nacon: I actually like the color.... in order to know what viewer they're using, save me a lot of time when troubleshooting their viewer problems

[12:31] Tiberious Neruda: and worse, where they use that for online staff, places will appear unpoliced, and it'll be a griefers' paradise

[12:31] Davido Chrome: Yeah. And some kind of temp upload for mesh. Alternatively a local option, where you can see the mesh in world locally, so to speak, before uploading.

[12:32] Renae Daines: There are ways around it, but not pretty ways. Having to send commands ot external servers kind of negates the effect of seeing someone online. (regarding DATA_ONLINE)

[12:32] Renae Daines: to*

[12:32] Vincent Nacon: not only temp upload... but a BIGGER preview window, ffs. muhaha!

[12:32] Sera Lok: you can still use the beta grid for temp uploads, right? at least there is that?

[12:32] Attica Bekkers: theres high demand for a log in privately option wouldnt that be better, just have the onlinr function not work for those logged in privately

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: what about simply a FLOOR in the rigged mesh preview?

[12:32] Vincent Nacon: hmmm naa

[12:32] Flip Idlemind: But A. You have to go to the beta grid, and

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda: so we can tweak our pelvis offsets once

[12:32] Vincent Nacon: maybe grid but meh

[12:33] Kaluura Boa: VWR-468 would be good solution if you don't want to break everything.

[12:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-468

[#VWR-468] Allow login as "invisible to all" from the login window

[12:33] Flip Idlemind: B. You still don't technically have unlimited money there

[12:33] Sera Lok: nods... I'm just WAY more concerned about the online status thing...

[12:33] Simon Linden: It will be possible for people to enable scripts in-world that check on their online status. I'm fuzzy on the exact details, but it will be possible to make an object that has someone's online status

[12:33] Davido Chrome: I have a problem with my stuff not propagating to the beta grid. I am making a bike for My little pony avatars. But I am not sure I can get to that avatar I bought from the Beta grid...

[12:33] Vincent Nacon: yeah Simon

[12:33] Flip Idlemind: And C. The object you're trying to texture might not exist in your inventory on the beta grid

[12:33] Sera Lok: Simon : for example mailing and update servers?

[12:33] Draconis Neurocam: it is object owner and script creator last i heard

[12:33] Attica Bekkers: are build tools and search by creator going?

[12:33] TankMaster Finesmith: scripts will work only for the creator and owner of the script

[12:33] Qie Niangao: Simon, that's pretty unworkable, actually. works for a tiny set of use cases, only.

[12:33] Vincent Nacon: but I think it's only work for script that's from the same creator

[12:33] Vincent Nacon: instead of owner

[12:33] Simon Linden: If you change your password on the main grid, your account on the beta grid is updated

[12:34] Sera Lok: yeah that ain't gonna work :(

[12:34] Vincent Nacon: owner would be better way to go

[12:34] Andrew Linden: This is the first I've heard about rumors of a change to the temp-texture-upload stuff, but I do know there is a team that is starting to look into the data pipeline: textures and also object data.

[12:34] Kaluura Boa: Changing of password every day... Yay! -.-

[12:34] Tiberious Neruda: but what about places where they CAN'T own the objects showing them as online?

[12:34] Renae Daines: I would prefer the server would accurately work with "Only friends and groups know I'm online" versus the general demolishing of online display items

[12:34] Kallista Destiny: Kal you can change the password to your current pasowrd

[12:34] Andrew Linden: Right now it is focused on figuring out how it actually works, but the intent it to fix or rewrite parts as necessary.

[12:34] Jonathan Yap: Change your password to what it already is, that should force an inventory push

[12:34] Liisa Runo: so, will Agent Data return something to tell the script that the info is hidden? online/offline/hidden

[12:35] Techwolf Lupindo: I hope you relayed my comments form the past about dumping that oject instrest list from the server side and go to static objects downloads instead.

[12:35] Kaluura Boa: Will try... My inventory on beta grid is really old...

[12:35] Draconis Neurocam: i thought the way temp uploads worked was actually just faking avatar bakes, client tags are about scrubbing unused info from said bakes

[12:35] Techwolf Lupindo: form=from

[12:35] Simon Linden: Renae - unfortunately that gets into an ugly database load problem with the way things are wired up today

[12:35] Sera Lok: i'm just a little miffed as i completely changed my mailing list setup because of the previous adjustment to the throttling, and now it looks as if the new one i just set up is going to be destroyed as well :( and this is a mailing list for people that WANT updates, that requested them

[12:35] Kallista Destiny: Just remember that after the upload your beta invenotry will be exactly you Main Grind inventory

[12:36] Attica Bekkers: apprently ytpvs wotnbe allowed features not in main viewer? thatsthe gossip? seems unlikely becaus eits goingto hitthe disability community hard?

[12:36] Talarus Luan: The online thing needs to be deep-sixed. The amount of support and complaints from broken content are going to dwarf the OpenSpace, Zindra, gambling, and banking debacles combined.

[12:36] Latif Khalifa: Simon, so do the right thing, and push that flag to presence, instead of overloading the db, or breaking a ton of content

[12:36] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Features that look 'broken' to others.

[12:36] Flip Idlemind: Ok here's my comment..."Log in as invisible" reminds me of an option that might exist in some chat service like Skype. But the different between that and SL is that this is a "world". You're not only communicating with a set contact list, but you're walking around in public areas potentially. People knowing that you're online is really unavoidable, and total "privacy" as far as you're online status is unrealistic.

[12:36] Simon Linden: Correct, Kallista. Your inventory on the beta grid gets nuked when you do that password change

[12:36] Davido Chrome: Ah, so I will loose things previously uploaded to beta?

[12:36] Techwolf Lupindo: There is an Phoenix/Firestorm/TPV office hour today at 2PM SLT.

[12:36] Kallista Destiny: Yes alll gone

[12:36] Qie Niangao: If the database can't handle a *proper* change, then I'd think one might fix that first, before making the change.

[12:37] Renae Daines: Agreed Qie... the root issue needs to be fixed, versus breaking content that has very legitimate uses (almost all estates, clubs, etc use online notifiers)

[12:37] Kaluura Boa: +1 @Qie

[12:37] Sera Lok: nods emphatically

[12:37] Renae Daines: So maybe that can be passed up the chain to get that change stopped, at least until the root problem is addressed

[12:37] Davido Chrome: I am kind of hoping that Firestorm will implement some kind of local "upload" for mesh, So I can see it inworld before actually uploading.

[12:37] Vincent Nacon: and games

[12:38] Davido Chrome: (Peeks at Tankmaster)

[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Local preview textures is being worked on for the LL viewer; I thought the TPVs already had it

[12:38] Tiberious Neruda: and the nice thing about temp texture uploads is that others CAN see them

[12:38] Davido Chrome: Yeah, but for Mesh objects.

[12:38] Tiberious Neruda: but a texture preview CAN'T be seen

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: we still don't have a proper mesh uploader like LL does...

[12:38] Rex Cronon: we can login as "ghosts":)

[12:38] Simon Linden: "Fixing databases" in SL is an interesting problem ... it gets pretty complicated when you're talking about something this large that can't be shut down for any amount of time

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith: Tib, another way to do it is upload the image to the web, then use media on a prim to display the image

[12:39] Tiberious Neruda: ...but what do you do about skins then?

[12:39] Techwolf Lupindo: The texture upload system is the same code path for textures and baked textures. Just one saves it to the assest server and deducts the lindens.

[12:39] Qie Niangao: Hmm. Well, god knows we don't want another displayname database nightmare. But if it can't be done sensibly, I don't see the point of rushing to do it.

[12:40] Vincent Nacon: skin would work because it need texture via UUID asset

[12:40] Simon Linden: But I'll repeat what Andrew said - I don't know anything about the texture upload system being changed.

[12:40] Latif Khalifa: Simon, can that privacy flag be pushed to presence that gets hit often anyway?

[12:40] Simon Linden: That's not connected with the viewer ID tags

[12:40] Renae Daines: As far as what DATA_ONLINE would return in that scenario, I imagine it would simply return a 0, otherwise it would send results to scripts that are not prepared for it

[12:41] Vincent Nacon: Simon, I think they're asking for it in exchange for that Tag loss

[12:41] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:41] Davido Chrome: It was Oz that mentioned something about Temp upload might getting broke as a sideeffect of, something. Can't remember.

[12:41] Tiberious Neruda: ...basically, what I'm saying is, hold off on breaking very useful things until we have things that work the RIGHT way that we can use

[12:41] Andrew Linden: Yes, the "agent presence" data service is much easier to change than the inventory or user database tables.

[12:41] Simon Linden: Not easily, Latif

[12:42] Attica Bekkers: ugly database or not only being able to be seen by certain groups, private login was available in icq last century, because people want that -its rocket science people want

[12:42] Andrew Linden: it is easier to change, but it is not easy for it to do complicated db queries

[12:42] Flip Idlemind: Well I uploaded a temporary texture on a main channel sim earlier today and it worked correctly, so I guess they're not broken as a side effect of viewer tags getting switched off

[12:42] Andrew Linden: it is for "cahcable" answers

[12:42] Flip Idlemind: Not broken yet, anyway

[12:42] Andrew Linden: cachable

[12:42] Davido Chrome: Goody. :)

[12:43] Simon Linden: Do the temp texture uploads use the baked texture pipeline?

[12:43] Renae Daines: What about placing the option to be "invisible" on the website similar to scripted agent status? Not sure that would help any but it would be less liable to be ticked on and off repeatedly (well I would think)

[12:43] Andrew Linden: er, that is. As long as the complicated db query is cachable, then it might be able to be added to the agent presence data (it seems to me).

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda: I believe they do, Simon, but I'm not certain

[12:43] Attica Bekkers: idkbut for texturing sculpties they are essential

[12:44] Davido Chrome: Simon, that sounds famiiar, yes, I think that was what Oz said.

[12:44] Latif Khalifa: Simon, yes

[12:44] Simon Linden: The actual texture uploading is un-affected by the recent change

[12:44] Andrew Linden: It sounds like they add meta-data to the baked texture uploads, or other temp-uploads that use the same pipeline.

[12:44] Flip Idlemind: And for making clothes (which I don't do often, but when I do, I need to upload a texture many many times before it looks right...and I'm not rolling is dough here)

[12:44] Sera Lok: don't understand why you can't just disallow TPVs from 'cheating' and showing true online status, let people AR those who are abusing it, and let commerce and other legit use cases use the function to do decent things.

[12:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Simon, the same msg is used for uploading any texture. It only the adding of another msg that it gets saved to the assest server and 10 lindnens ducted.

[12:44] Talarus Luan: It's not that simple, Sera.

[12:45] Vincent Nacon: Flip, you need proper tool to make something that look "right"

[12:45] Simon Linden: The TPV code puts special values into texture entries in the AgentAppearance message. The un-used data fields are now scrubbed server-side]

[12:45] Kallista Destiny: I think you'll find that most of the scripts that do lots of queries are checking the same list of people all the tim.

[12:45] Flip Idlemind: "Proper tools" also require one to be rolling dough

[12:45] Flip Idlemind: (AKA they cost money)

[12:45] Sera Lok: right, it's more simple just to shut it off completely? >.<

[12:45] Vincent Nacon: Blender cost money?

[12:45] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: o_O

[12:45] Talarus Luan: The TPVs that are "cheating" (ok whatever), are simply using a scripted object that EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD HAS USED FOR YEARS without an issue.

[12:46] Vincent Nacon: and there are fwe others tools for free that people made for SL

[12:46] Kallista Destiny: so cached results will be very beneficial

[12:46] Flip Idlemind: Worse, Blender costs time and energy for me to figure out how to use it

[12:46] Vincent Nacon: then.... maybe you shouldn't make anything?

[12:46] Sera Lok: wow you don't have to yell :)

[12:46] Vincent Nacon: :P

[12:46] Davido Chrome: FLIP, that's gonna be just as true for a program you pay for though....

[12:46] Talarus Luan: Sorry. It annoys me.

[12:46] TankMaster Finesmith: the logic is that just because a user can easly cercomvent another uer's privacy, doent give the right for any viewer to do so

[12:46] Vincent Nacon: we feel your rage

[12:46] Talarus Luan: It's a waste of time and resources for no real gain.

[12:47] Sera Lok: notice i put '' around cheating ;) in my own text.

[12:47] Vincent Nacon: another problem that I see...

[12:47] Skills Hak: hey hubby

[12:47] Talarus Luan: ..and it is going to explode in LL's face something awful

[12:47] Skills Hak: what's goin on

[12:47] Sera Lok: i certainly agree with that

[12:47] Qie Niangao: Phoenix has already changed the code for new releases, as I understand it. There's been no explanation why this make-believe "privacy" issue is suddenly so urgent.

[12:47] Flip Idlemind: What I think Talarus is saying is, any decision that stops something from working that has been working for years requires serious consideration

[12:47] Vincent Nacon: TPV developer had few month notice before it happens... that might anger some residents for not hearing that notice ahead of time

[12:48] Kelly Linden: I do have a small item to bring up before we run out of time.

[12:48] Kelly Linden: I'm looking at reverting llGetSubString and llDeleteSubString to the slower non-mono implementation to resolve some issues with codepoints that are more than 2 utf-16 chars in size. If you have thoughts on that, particularly why I shouldn't do that, please let me know.

[12:48] Renae Daines: Well, removing it from TPV's is easy enough, but taking that next step and removing it from the general populace hurts =/

[12:48] Talarus Luan: I don't need a translator, but thanks, though. :)

[12:48] Sera Lok: personally i don't care if someone can see my true online status via viewer, hud, script, whatever. but i do know that some people really have issues with it

[12:48] Skills Hak: oh gad fein

[12:48] Fine Caliber: look at youuu

[12:48] Vincent Nacon: so maybe hold back the Tag removal for another week or two to let people know ahead of time instead of yanking out from them

[12:48] Skills Hak: zomg hiiii

[12:48] DesolateStudios: Kelly: It's way slower. :(

[12:48] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Viewer tags are already gone on the stable branch though.

[12:48] Kallista Destiny: Vince it'a already rolled

[12:48] Vincent Nacon: I know

[12:49] Davido Chrome: Kelly, can I give you n object that uses llgetSubstring and you can tell for yourself?

[12:49] Talarus Luan: I've lived with the ability for people to see my true online status since I came here. I don't care. I know *PRECISELY* how to "hide" effectively without needing to gut that ability from the platform.

[12:49] Vincent Nacon: people are going to be even more mad once they find out that TPV had month ahead notice before it happened

[12:49] Talarus Luan: That's almost 6 years

[12:49] Kelly Linden: alve tell what?

[12:49] Simon Linden: THere are also some products on the marketplace that give you a nice web-based history of online status. So you can see the exact blocks of time during the days when people have been online

[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith: back in december we knew LL wanted to remove it, but not when

[12:49] Talarus Luan: Yes, I made one to track adfarmers

[12:49] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:49] Talarus Luan: So we knew when they were out making their messes

[12:49] Vincent Nacon: wait why?

[12:50] Renae Daines: Then simply knock those offline?

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: we only had about 1h advanced notice on the actual time LL was going to remove it

[12:50] Sera Lok: :(

[12:50] Davido Chrome: It's a simball ball clock that extrapolates who has the balls from the verbal shouts of the simball server. It's like the some time limit for how long you can keep the ball in basketball.

[12:50] Vincent Nacon: that's not true, Tank

[12:50] Vincent Nacon: they had a month or more

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: no

[12:50] Simon Linden: Friday to Tuesday, I think

[12:50] Vincent Nacon: maybe you didn't

[12:50] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: december is 2 months ago, vincent

[12:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I knew about this on Friday and I'm not a TPV dev...

[12:51] Vincent Nacon: right

[12:51] TankMaster Finesmith: but we didn't know until last Friday that they were going to remove the capibility today

[12:51] Flip Idlemind: I play with the open source-ness of the viewer but I don't work on any of the "major" TPV's so...I didn't know until Friday T_T

[12:51] TankMaster Finesmith: before that it was "some time in the future"

[12:51] Rex Cronon: so substring will get slow again?

[12:51] Vincent Nacon: we all know how mad people were when Sony didn't release press about network hack soon as possible

[12:51] Talarus Luan: Anyway, I am sure LL has already made the decision, and it is just a matter of how screwed up the actual solution will be, and how much collateral damage will be avoided, but it won't be small.

[12:52] Kelly Linden: rex - yea

[12:52] Sera Lok: it will be bad. :(

[12:52] Vincent Nacon: aye

[12:52] Sera Lok: i hope they are reconsidering.

[12:52] Tiberious Neruda: fair warning... be prepared for MASSIVE rage when the online status thing breaks

[12:52] Qie Niangao: I still hold out hope that they'll redeem themselves, Talarus. This will be *such* a black eye, when so much content simply stops working.

[12:52] Renae Daines: For me personally it means moving everything to an outside server just to accomplish the same thing

[12:52] Sera Lok: WAY too heavy handed

[12:52] Vincent Nacon: it'll be stupid not to let residents know a head of time

[12:52] Draconis Neurocam: kelly i would be interested to know as to why the non mono implimentation has trouble handling it?

[12:53] Flip Idlemind: Theoretical question: If it turns out that the server change that turned off viewer tags has some sort of catastrophic side effect, could they be turned back on?

[12:53] Vincent Nacon: doubt it

[12:53] Talarus Luan: Well, unfortunately the track record speaks otherwise.. adfarmers, OpenSpaces, gambling, Zindra, etc etc ad nauseum.

[12:53] Kelly Linden: I can't type well right now, but am happy to discuss another time.

[12:53] DesolateStudios: My two cents: THe Online status thing is used legitly, more than just a spying device.

[12:53] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: FLIP - would need a rollback, but the sims I've been on that have it have been fine.

[12:53] Simon Linden: well, how about this -- take some time to figure out what stuff will break, and write it up and put some good info into the forum

[12:53] Rex Cronon: can't u force all string to use at most 16bits?

[12:53] Simon Linden: Have a sane discussion

[12:53] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, try going places where people gather. See how many of those online status objects are around

[12:53] Simon Linden: I'll point execs to it

[12:53] Talarus Luan: have you read SVC-4823 comments, Simon?

[12:53] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4823

[#SVC-4823] Restrict LSL's avatar online status checking to respect avatar's privacy setting

[12:54] Latif Khalifa: Simon, there are a ton of examples on the jira

[12:54] Talarus Luan: That should get you started.

[12:54] Sera Lok: nod, so many more legit uses than LL realizes, i think

[12:54] Vincent Nacon: besides... there's a lot more ways to track people than just online status

[12:54] Simon Linden: You think execs are going to spend much time filtering through all the rage and crap in jiras?

[12:54] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh..

[12:54] Vincent Nacon: we can track their location, listen chat, etc etc

[12:54] Simon Linden: I'm not, personally. I'd rather get in code and fix a bug

[12:54] Talarus Luan: No, neither are they going to spend much time filtering through all the rage and crap in forums, either.

[12:54] Vincent Nacon: even track their camera

[12:54] DesolateStudios: No, but perhaps they should listen to the people who are the voice of the JIRAs

[12:54] Sera Lok: most of the comments are use cases.

[12:54] Kallista Destiny: No but Y'all can filter it, Execs only with th summary anyway

[12:54] Techwolf Lupindo: that lsl call is used to work around broken LL inventory sytsem deleverly. I would think LL would fix that first, then break teh lsl stuff.

[12:54] Latif Khalifa: Nobody is against respecting the privcy setting, but nerfing the whole functionity feels just lazy

[12:55] Kallista Destiny: It is I'm afraid.

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda: if they're good execs, they should. These -are- the customers that are talking, and the most vocal ones, to boot

[12:55] Qie Niangao: At the very least, there needs to be some more compelling excuse for this massive breakage, beyond a strange urge to close a four-year-old jira by somebody who didn't want what is about to be thrust upon us.

[12:55] Talarus Luan: ..and, yes, I DO expect execs to get their lazy ivory-tower arses into the trenches and take one for the team once in a while.

[12:55] DesolateStudios: Agreed. This is a bad "fix"

[12:55] Sera Lok: mmhmm!

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:56] Sera Lok: can they read?^^

[12:56] Kallista Destiny: Also Jira watching is not necessaraly a vote FOR somthing.

[12:56] Simon Linden: Well, I'm telling you what I think would be the most effecitve way for you to get your message across.

[12:56] DesolateStudios: The proper thing to do is enforce the TOS, rather than take the tools away.

[12:56] Vincent Nacon: yeah but they're not lawyers, like they didn't have any choice

[12:56] Rex Cronon: i have to say i am a little confused about what will get broken with the new policy changes. is a there a page that gives a list of what it breaks?

[12:56] Attica Bekkers: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-468 apr 07 i signed it then, been 5 years stil want it

[12:56] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-468] Allow login as "invisible to all" from the login window

[12:56] Renae Daines: I'd simply ask that the whole issue be send up the pipeline on the Linden side of things for an alternate solution as it will break legitimate content and disrupt and disable quite a few businesses in the same move

[12:56] Talarus Luan: Well, the MOST effective way to get MY message across is to close my account and deny LL any more money, but I HOPE it doesn't have to come to that.

[12:57] Flip Idlemind: I'm not as upset about DATA_ONLINE not working as I am concerned about LL breaking age-old things without listening to people' comments...but clearly, since Simon just asked, they are

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: we DO know the most effective way... but that's one that really won't be liked by LL

[12:57] Flip Idlemind: So...that's good news at least

[12:57] Sera Lok: isn't there someone at LL who can represent the users of SL anymore? :(

[12:57] Renae Daines: And until an alternative is found, that DATA_ONLINE be left intact until a later date where there is a user preference to opt out (even if by default)

[12:57] Talarus Luan: I think a few thousand people following me out the door might telegraph that there's a problem worthy of them looking into, amirite?

[12:57] Vincent Nacon: that's us, Sera

[12:57] Renae Daines: (Adding: Without having to own the script or be the creator)

[12:57] Latif Khalifa: Talarus, I agree. And that message seems to be getting across, not as if LL is fighting off too much concurrency

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda: exactly. We -need- a Linden to act as the user's representative

[12:58] Vincent Nacon: without pay?

[12:58] Davido Chrome: Simon just asked us to compile info about the expected breakage, and they just gave us a shiny new forum to do it in.

[12:58] Kelly Linden: I have been actively following the disccussion on the forums and jira regarding DATA_ONLINE. (sorry I've been quiet, was holding a sleeping sick 1yo, hard to type). I do have more meetings this week to discuss the issues that have been raised.

[12:58] Kelly Linden: Sorry that I do not have anything more exciting to say on it right now.

[12:58] Arawn Spitteler whispers: Linden Labs needs a communications manager, who can be told what users are supposed to believe.

[12:58] Talarus Luan: There's plenty of feedback, and it's mostly non-flaming and relevant.

[12:58] Flip Idlemind: I appreciate you guize's listening-ness

[12:59] Qie Niangao: well... who wants to wade through the jira comments and pick out all the DATA_ONLINE use cases and put them into that new forum? It's not an unreasonable request, but... gawd.

[12:59] Sera Lok: great^^ if you can bear through the more useless JIRA comments, there is lots and lots of legit stuff in there

[12:59] Simon Linden: fwiw I also summarize the discussions we have here and email the engineering group - and it does get read, based on an easter egg feedback.

[12:59] Techwolf Lupindo: "meetings", as in user meeting that will be ignored or meeting with Lindens?

[12:59] Vincent Nacon: well here's a good question... is there any developer lindens that can be heard by the top rank?

[12:59] Kelly Linden: as in meeting with other lindens about the issues.

[12:59] Talarus Luan: Around 80-90% of the JIRA posts are exactly that.

[12:59] Attica Bekkers: dont really care how hard follow av and privacy and timestamped photos are, still want them. user online isnt a problem, thats just handy, whats a problem is notbeing able to opt out when you want to build for an hour

[12:59] Vincent Nacon: or heard by CEO at all?

[12:59] Latif Khalifa: When I told Oz this would break all the advertizing panels in SL, he said "what's an advertizing panel?". Go around any SL club and see pictures around of people advertising stuff and buttons that show them available to contact and online ;)

[12:59] Sera Lok: thank you :) and we are very glad for the user meetings too

[12:59] DesolateStudios: Rather than just break it outright, give the person who the request is being made the option to return the results.

[13:00] Simon Linden: Latif - those can still be built, I believe

[13:00] Latif Khalifa: no

[13:00] Qie Niangao: but they all *break*

[13:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I thought it still worked for the owner of the script?

[13:00] Davido Chrome: The user just needs to be the owner.

[13:00] Talarus Luan: Anyway.. realize I speak from picking at old wounds; it's nothing personal, just my fear of "Oh no.. BOHICA", because I have a memory.

[13:00] Attica Bekkers: itw illbreaklinden sandbox help

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:01] Renae Daines: A very pertinent example is how most land companies in SL offer contact in-world and via visitors to their land in regions they pay for through linden labs. So... that's something to think about =)

[13:01] Attica Bekkers: no more help on demand for users of ll sandboxes!

[13:01] Simon Linden: Right, most out there today are not likely to match the account and owner/creator

[13:01] Latif Khalifa: Simon, if you're going to ask people to compile their own scripts and put in the panels,... lol allowing scripts run by 3rd parties in your club... what could possibly go wrong

[13:01] Nalates Urriah: At kelly's meeting it was said that the creator and owner's status could be qurried and return an accurate answer.

[13:01] DesolateStudios: That's what I due Renae, my support staff has little billboards pop up if they're online.

[13:02] Latif Khalifa: plus you break thousands of existing ones.... and you let all opensource devs out to hang, anyone who has distributed full perm script is now open for abuse

[13:02] Davido Chrome: It's not a complex code. I'll whip up a nice freebie and put it up on marketplace. Might help that particular problem a little.

[13:02] Qie Niangao: Yeah, the creator / owner exception doesn't really work for most use cases. The staff online indicators can be reworked for that, but not the adboards.

[13:02] Renae Daines: Some land companies also use this practice on the land they have for sale, offering their personal pagers on each parcel so the user can receive immediate attention. Breaking this (and by breaking I also mean the owner/creator) would catastrophically limit that support to the end user

[13:02] Davido Chrome: Oh, Damn I would be, wouldn't I...

[13:03] Elisha Richez: >8I

[13:03] DesolateStudios: But yeah, more legit uses than spying.

[13:03] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[13:03] Vincent Nacon: yeah but spying still can spy without online status

[13:03] Qie Niangao: heh. yeah

[13:03] Kelly Linden: Bye all! I can't stay late today.

[13:03] Renae Daines: I'm happy to know an email is being sent up stream - I just hope they receive and read it with understanding that a lot of legitimate businesses in SL do not have the ability to put each pager in the users name

[13:03] Sera Lok: exactly... it's not going to fix the actual problem.

[13:03] Qie Niangao: thanks Kelly

[13:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you, Kelly.

[13:04] Latif Khalifa: It just doesn't make sense. If I distribute full perm scripts I have no right to privacy, but if I want to make my online status public to scripted objects, I can't

[13:04] Andrew Linden: I've got to go to another meeting now.

[13:04] Draconis Neurocam: take care kelly

[13:04] Vincent Nacon: get location, chat listen, camera position, etc etc

[13:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you too, Andrew.

[13:04] Sera Lok: thank you Lindens!

[13:04] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.

[13:04] Simon Linden: well, I'll pass on the feedback as I've mentioned.

[13:04] Vincent Nacon: take care

[13:04] Sera Lok: ty for listenin

[13:04] Qie Niangao: thanks Lindens.

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell: See you.

[13:04] Draconis Neurocam: andrew and simon as well, and thank you andrew for finally doing something about highlighting

[13:04] Nalates Urriah: Thxs Andrew

[13:04] Renae Daines: Thanks Simon, mark it important =p

[13:04] Vincent Nacon: and hope your baby get better

[13:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: And Simon as I assume he's going too, heh.



Simulator_User_Group

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