Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.05.15
|Prev 2012.05.11||Next 2012.05.18|
List of Speakers
|Andrew Linden||AnnMarie Otoole||Ashiri Sands|
|Draconis Neurocam||Ima Mechanique||Jonathan Yap|
|Kadah Coba||Kallista Destiny||Motor Loon|
|Nalates Urriah||Neovo Geesink||Qie Niangao|
|Sahkolihaa Contepomi||Simon Linden||Theresa Tennyson|
|Vincent Nacon||Warthog Jun||Yuzuru Jewell|
[11:59] Simon Linden: Hi everyone
[11:59] Nalates Urriah: Hi
[11:59] Andrew Linden: Hello
[11:59] Vincent Nacon: heya
[11:59] Kallista Destiny: Ave Andrew, Ave Simon
[11:59] Nalates Urriah: Andrew goes with the furniture. What a fashion statement.
[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello Simon and Andrew
[12:00] Motor Loon: hehehe
[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group
[12:00] Vincent Nacon: that's pretty much his sofa anyway
[12:00] Motor Loon: Probably first time ever Andrew looked fashionable ,-)
[12:00] Kallista Destiny chuckles
[12:00] Vincent Nacon: can you spot Torley's and Rex's?
[12:00] Andrew Linden: Hehe
[12:00] Nalates Urriah: Torley's is easy
[12:01] Motor Loon: "mood couches"
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Ok news...
[12:02] Andrew Linden: I'm still working on pathfinding.
[12:02] Motor Loon: (thats not news lol)
[12:02] Vincent Nacon: (was thinking same thing)
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Currently trying to reproduce a problem with rezzing some temp-on-rez prims that cause error messages about cannot move onto parcel
[12:03] Andrew Linden: the problem is related to SVC-7910... sorta
[12:03] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7910
[#SVC-7910] Can't move object because of an unknown reason 4194304
[12:03] Andrew Linden: er actually, it is caused by the fact that the terrain now collides like a mesh
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: could be related to volume detect?
[12:04] Andrew Linden: (in pathfinding)
[12:04] Andrew Linden: rather than as a "heightfield"
[12:04] Andrew Linden: the mesh is cheaper for collision computations, navmesh generation, and ray casting
[12:04] Andrew Linden: however it collides like a collection of triangles and doesn't know its underside from its top
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so fast moving small objects can tunnel through the mesh
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: that's fine, I think
[12:05] Motor Loon: arh
[12:05] Vincent Nacon: hmm
[12:05] Kallista Destiny: is the mech collidable?
[12:05] Andrew Linden: yeah, I've just started to ponder how to fix it. Dunno yet
[12:05] Kallista Destiny: tht is below it
[12:06] Motor Loon: seems like that could potential affect alot of stuff
[12:06] Andrew Linden: might have to do some explicit terrain-tunnelling-resolution for dynamic objects (objects that are bouncing around)
[12:06] Vincent Nacon: yeah like golf
[12:06] Kallista Destiny: so that an objct having passed through it will still detect a collision.
[12:07] Vincent Nacon: maybe for plan C? Not mesh but not same old height field?
[12:07] Motor Loon: little speedbumps on the road shouldnt make you turn back
[12:08] Andrew Linden: The problem with Plan C is that a heightfield is expensive for the navmesh generation...
[12:08] Vincent Nacon: I know, I meant try another idea
[12:08] Kallista Destiny: If not, this is going to seriously break combat, at least using the current system.
[12:08] Andrew Linden: although I wonder if we can use terrain mesh for the navmesh generation, and then use the heightfield for general collisions
[12:09] Kallista Destiny: That would work.
[12:09] Andrew Linden: I'm sure Falcon won't like the idea, because the mesh is cheaper in CPU cycles in general (once the mesh is known)
[12:09] Jonathan Yap: I had an object fall through the ground from quite a distance up; is that related?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: however I'll bounce the idea off of him
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: sounds like when editing terrain, it could eat up a bit more cpu
[12:09] Andrew Linden: actually Vincent it does
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: but do lightly in physic
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: I mean with that idea you just brought up
[12:10] Andrew Linden: in fact, right now on the pathfinding regions, if you edit the terrain you'll notice that the collision shape does not immediately reflect the visible changes
[12:10] Andrew Linden: it takes several seconds (10? 20?)
[12:10] Andrew Linden: before the collision shape will update
[12:10] Motor Loon: but it updates automaticallly?
[12:11] Andrew Linden: and, I think you have to use the "navmesh editing mode" thing to actually trigger the terrain collision mesh to update
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: I don't know any contents or games that need to change land height so often
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: so I think you're safe with that
[12:11] Andrew Linden: that is, the UI buttons for specifying whether you want to move navmeshy objects or not
[12:12] Andrew Linden: ok that is all the news from me
[12:12] Draconis Neurocam: speaking of which do you ever think we will get larger brushes with llModifyLand?
[12:12] Kallista Destiny: Yeah, land doesn't change very often. However Dorrs and stuff, will they still have the same collision characteristics?
[12:12] Motor Loon: aha... so doing "regular" terraform work on a sim wont make it got nuts trying to recalculate things unless you are also setting up the PF stuff
[12:13] Draconis Neurocam: 8x8 as a maximum for modify land means you need to have a large number of prims out to do anything useful
[12:13] Andrew Linden: No Draconis, we're not planning on bigger brushes that I know of, but we know that the terrain editing tools could use some work
[12:14] Jonathan Yap: I've used "land levellers" in the past to more easily edit the terrain
[12:14] Andrew Linden: right now you have to move it about a lot before you achieve exactly what you want (if you're doing something fancy)
[12:14] Andrew Linden: you can "apply" a terrain operation to an entire parcel
[12:14] Motor Loon: What really really needs some work is our estate tools to control situations with greifers...
[12:14] Andrew Linden: so if the parcel is big then it acts like a big brush
[12:15] Draconis Neurocam: right, but i am talking about something controlled by scripts
[12:15] Andrew Linden: Motor, what are some examples/ideas of anti-griefer tools?
[12:15] Jonathan Yap: are the names in the ban list returned in order newest to oldest entry or is random?
[12:16] Andrew Linden: I don't know the order.
[12:16] Simon Linden: I don't think it's sorted, Jonathan
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: Having / knowing a date of when someone was banned would help when old entries have to be removed to make space
[12:16] Andrew Linden: It might be simply the order in which they arrive after a database query, so... systematic, but undefined.
[12:17] Motor Loon: well... example.... some days ago our estate was attacked.... LL was quick to ban the guy doing it... but the problem then was we was left with cleaning up after him... over 4 sims he had nonscripted particlespammers spread over on many parcels owned by various people. Because he was not banned - the object return feature for the sim couldn't be used (since he was no longer found in search)
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: yeah, I've wanted to program my own bot to act as security guard. Manage the ban list with expire date for each person
[12:17] Motor Loon: also... we're seeing estatebans fail utterly again... so estatebanned people comming back time after time
[12:18] Andrew Linden: Ah I see. LL put him on suspension and he couldn't be added to the estate banned list
[12:18] Jonathan Yap: svc-7026 just got a comment
[12:18] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7026
[#SVC-7026] Error when banning across multiple Estates
[12:18] Motor Loon: In the example there, we were stuck doing returns manally... for each and every object
[12:18] Vincent Nacon: but I couldn't keep up with the viewer version changes to keep working on my bot
[12:18] Kallista Destiny: Also Eject at teh region level sometimes just sends people to <0,0,0>
[12:18] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[12:19] Kallista Destiny: wich is a PITA to sat the least
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: when the parcel is the whole sim, it shoves them to 0,0,0 corner
[12:19] Andrew Linden: ok, I'm taking some notes
[12:19] Draconis Neurocam: also i believe you can still use vehicles when frozen
[12:19] Motor Loon: I'd like to see the estatetools "object return by resident name" - be able to work across all regions in the estate like it's supposed to... and be able to manually type in the name, for cases where the account is no longer in search.
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: no Drac, don't think so
[12:19] Andrew Linden: but if you know of related jira issue numbers go ahead and state them here for the record
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: when frozen, it ignore your key strokes as well
[12:20] Andrew Linden: such as SVC=7026 (thanks)
[12:20] Motor Loon: SVC-4632
[12:20] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4632
[#SVC-4632] People getting past Estate and Land bans
[12:21] Motor Loon: I dont know if there's a JIRA on the broken objectreturn feature?
[12:21] Motor Loon: For us estatemanagers that feature would be GOLD... if it worked that is... allowing us to clean up after even the worst greifer in seconds
[12:22] Qie Niangao: (not to interrupt this, but when we reach a lull, I wonder: Did Simon or Kelly have news?)
[12:23] Simon Linden: I don't have much but could talk more about region idling
[12:23] Motor Loon: I would like to hear about the idle thing actually...
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: idling? maddness!
[12:23] Andrew Linden: ok Motor, I noted that request for better griefer picker
[12:23] Simon Linden: A forum post went live about 45 seconds ago : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-coming-to-Second-Life/td-p/1535485
[12:23] Motor Loon: thank you Andrew.
[12:24] Motor Loon: and if the "in every region of this estate" function also worked, I'm be just happy as a ... something happy
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: I like this idea, Simon
[12:25] Andrew Linden: ok so estate-wide operations don't work
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: but I have a feeling people will complain about their script not working, such as auto-updater, news feed, etc etc
[12:25] Motor Loon: I have a few questions regarding IDLE
[12:25] Qie Niangao: Dumbest possible question: Who gets the cycles not spent on full framerate when idle?
[12:26] Motor Loon: 1. whats the purpose of it? - to be able to cram more sims into a server, or to provide the regions WITH avatars more power?
[12:26] Simon Linden: It's really up to the OS, Qie
[12:26] Simon Linden: We want to have better performance, Motor
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: to save more power, Motor
[12:26] Motor Loon: 2. How long does it take for a region to go out of IDLE when an avatar comes into a region in that mode
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: and save more money on power bill
[12:26] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:26] Simon Linden: It checks every frame, Motor, so it's effectively instant
[12:27] Motor Loon: Excellent... then I have nothing to whine about
[12:27] Motor Loon: ...this time...
[12:27] Motor Loon: hehe
[12:27] Warthog Jun: smiles
[12:27] Jonathan Yap: During a time of the day when the grid is fairly busy, what percentage of regions have no avatar in them?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: 1/10th of a second if it is running at 10 FPS
[12:27] Kallista Destiny: and no avatar in any of the adjacent regions
[12:27] Simon Linden: There's a FAQ now at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Region-Idling-FAQ/td-p/1535497
[12:27] Jonathan Yap: yes, no avatar looking in
[12:27] Theresa Tennyson: Do all the sims on a server share the same memory?
[12:27] Motor Loon: I'm sure IDLE will free up ALOT of resources that was spend on basically nothing
[12:28] Simon Linden: Jonathan - I'm not sure of the exact number, but I'm hoping given any server with multiple regions, at least one will be in idle so there's a bit more CPU available to something else
[12:29] Simon Linden: The numbers are roughly in that ballpark, I think. There are plenty more empty regions, but lots of those have AVs in neighboring regions who can see into them
[12:29] Simon Linden: Longfellow to the south of here is an example of that
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Simon, do those regions go IDLE, if someone can see into them?
[12:29] Kallista Destiny: well were peaking at 60K active, so at least 1/2 of the regions should be emoty
[12:30] Andrew Linden reads the FAQ
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Simon Linden: No, if anyone can see in, it won't go idle
[12:30] Vincent Nacon: so it won't help much for mainlands
[12:30] Simon Linden: That's so content there ... scripted critters, for example ... will run at normal speed
[12:30] Warthog Jun: stupid question time
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: define see it please?
[12:31] Warthog Jun: how much mainland is actually owned
[12:31] Warthog Jun: prune the mainland
[12:31] Jonathan Yap: Does that mean that those reproducing bunnies, horses, etc. will be a little slower to need to eat, drink, etc. at some points?
[12:31] Warthog Jun: save a ton
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: LL owns 7117 sims
[12:31] Vincent Nacon: out of 29968 sims
[12:31] Simon Linden: That would depend on how they're programmed, Jonathan
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: No they donlt count frames I'm sure
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Kallista, if you can see any terrain or objects in a region, then you can see into it.
[12:32] Jonathan Yap: ah, okay, they go by time hopefully
[12:32] Simon Linden: yeah, I'd expect most use a real clock
[12:32] Motor Loon: they probably use timers and/or time functions
[12:32] Andrew Linden: er... if your view frustum touches the region
[12:32] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: So TPVs with less restrictions on 'removing other sims' will cause the idle to go off more.
[12:32] Neovo Geesink: Is it allso dependant on how far a Resident has set his / her draw distance if a Region goes Idle or not?
[12:32] Andrew Linden: and if you get any terrian or object data, then that region knows you can see into it (because it sent that data to you)
[12:32] Vincent Nacon: what about bots and traffic campers?
[12:33] Kallista Destiny: hmmmm going to be difficult to decide abou going Idle then, some people have ridiculous Draw distances.
[12:33] Motor Loon: How long before IDLE kicks in after the last avatars stops using the sim
[12:33] Simon Linden: Right, if your viewer can see into that neighbor and has set up a connection to get object info, terrain, updates, etc -- that region won't go idle
[12:33] Jonathan Yap: Will having a mini-map open that shows adjacet regions cause idle to switch off, even if your view is not into an adjacent region?
[12:33] Simon Linden: It can go idle after they're fully removed from the region, Motor
[12:33] Motor Loon: so .. right away?
[12:34] Simon Linden: Yes, right away
[12:34] Motor Loon: cool
[12:34] Motor Loon: it's really a really good idea
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:34] Warthog Jun: but will it save anything
[12:34] Jonathan Yap: Was it pretty easy to implement?
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: but those bots and traffic campers can be an issue
[12:34] Qie Niangao: Some content passes *through* empty, unseen regions, to get to other regions where there are viewers. I assume that stuff may take longer, but should still make it through, right?
[12:34] Simon Linden: Hmm, I'm not exactly sure of that, Jonathan. I don't know if you have a connection to that region ... I _think_ you probably do, so it woud block idling
[12:34] Motor Loon: nothing is ever easy
[12:35] Andrew Linden: The FAQ doesn't make a distinction for bots/traffic-campers, so I would guess that means they are treated as regular residents for idle transitions.
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: what about when avatar got all the data to see from other sim, could it go idle then?
[12:35] Simon Linden: Yes, Qie, they should get through but just slower in real time
[12:35] Qie Niangao: thanks.
[12:35] Simon Linden: Right, there is no distinction made at this time for bots
[12:35] AnnMarie Otoole: What about my unmanned vehicles passing through?
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Simon, the idle decision is based on whether there is a non-zero count of "agent" instances, right? (I'm guessing)
[12:36] Simon Linden: yes Andrew, main or child agents prevent idling
[12:36] Simon Linden: So the logic is pretty simple
[12:36] Motor Loon: or object using "LSL network functions" `
[12:36] Andrew Linden: ok, so viewing via the minimap probably shouldn't prevent them from going idle
[12:36] Motor Loon: "Any scripts that use LSL network functions will suspend region idling for a short period of time to allow them to function normally. This will allow scripts that connect to outside services via email, http and xmlrpc to run as expected."
[12:36] Simon Linden: Right, scripts connecting to the outside world will cause it to avoid idling for a few seconds
[12:37] Andrew Linden: the "agents" are only maintained if you can see into the region (your view frustum touches the region)
[12:37] Draconis Neurocam: what about llgiveinventory? for update servers
[12:37] Motor Loon: that'd be "LSL network functions" Drac
[12:38] Motor Loon: how much does LSL slow down then, when the region goes idle?
[12:39] Andrew Linden: AnnMarie, it sounds like unmanned vehicles passing through will not wake up the region... they'll pass through at 10 FPS
[12:39] Andrew Linden: instead of 45 FPS
[12:40] Simon Linden: It's a bit less than the frame rate drop ... fully idle regions will drop to about 8-10 fps.
[12:40] Simon Linden: But some of that extra time is given back to scripts to help balance it out
[12:40] Kallista Destiny: but that jusst means that they'll take bigger "steps"
[12:40] Motor Loon: ok... dont really see it should damage anything
[12:40] Qie Niangao: unless the unmanned vehicles do network comms (which they probably do)
[12:40] Simon Linden: There has been a lot of healthy paranoia about breaking things
[12:40] Warthog Jun: why are you doing it?
[12:41] Simon Linden: It should help performace
[12:41] Andrew Linden: no Kallista, I think it means the effective simulation time slows down to 2/9 of what it normally is.
[12:41] Motor Loon: "Region idling will help Second Life server performance and stability by lowering the amount of computing power used by empty portions of the grid. If the servers spend a little less time simulating parts of the virtual world where the are no residents, this CPU power can help busier areas."
[12:41] Simon Linden: and possibly some power savings, but I'm not betting on much of that
[12:41] Warthog Jun: what do you hope to acomplish by it
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: I'd guess about 33% of empty sims would go idle because lack of scripts stopping it
[12:42] Vincent Nacon: like most of the education sims
[12:42] Motor Loon: I'd think more than 33%
[12:42] Motor Loon: alot more
[12:42] Simon Linden: A long time back I did some forced-situation testing ... I loaded down 4 regions on the same server with lots of scripts and physical objects. I then put 3 into the "idle" mode ... there was a 50% speed up of the 4th regions
[12:42] Simon Linden: ... region's frame rate
[12:43] Simon Linden: I think I had them all slowed down to about 20fps
[12:43] Vincent Nacon: well... I'm guessing without counting those homestead sims
[12:43] Simon Linden: The 4th jumped back up to about 30, if I remember the numbers right
[12:43] Simon Linden: This will _not_ be a huge change, but every bit helps
[12:43] Kallista Destiny: correct but objecst moving at say 10 M/S will move 1.25 Meters every frame instead of .222 Meters per frame assuming 8 FPS at Idle.
[12:43] Warthog Jun: how are you going to balance out the sims that go idle withthe ones that are busy
[12:43] Motor Loon: it does indeed
[12:43] Simon Linden: I don't expect results like that test
[12:44] Motor Loon: At worst it'll make no difference, at best a busy region gets extra power because other regions on same server aint doing nothing... kinda a win-win thing eh
[12:44] Simon Linden: We don't have plans at this time to try to balance or match up regions that idle or do not
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: you know... if putting them into idle state and it gave you much more headroom... it means there's a lot more to optimize the code as well.
[12:45] Simon Linden: We've talked about that before, but it's a really difficult problem ... this region, for example, is often empty but has usage spikes when there's a meeting
[12:46] Qie Niangao: right: it suddenly makes the mix of sims assigned to a server a potentially interesting problem, but a difficult one... lots of sims have specific time-of-day peaks, for example.
[12:46] Simon Linden: Vincent - there's always room to improve the code, but this optimization is more "don't do the useless simulation"
[12:46] Simon Linden: i.e, make the tree fall slower in the forest if nobody is around
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: oh I know but I mean when the sim isn't idle
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: there's more to squeeze out
[12:46] Ima Mechanique: and disable sound streaming of the tree
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: the trees are screaming? what?
[12:47] Simon Linden: I understand what you mean, but I think that's really a different problem. Even if our servers were nearly perfect, idling would still be useful just because there are empty regions
[12:47] Ima Mechanique: no, they can't scream if no one's there to hear ;-)
[12:47] Motor Loon: agree
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: yeah idle is good, just saying there's more to squeeze if you know where to look
[12:48] Motor Loon: sims already dont stream sounds if nobody is around to receive them I belive
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: yeah, Motor's right. it's an asset thing
[12:49] Ima Mechanique: hmm, it was a joke. about wether a falling tree makes a noise if no one's there to hear it ;-)
[12:49] AnnMarie Otoole: If a tree falls in SL and no one is looking, did it really fall?
[12:49] Simon Linden: That's correct, Motor - if nobody is there to get updates, there is no place to send "play this sound" data
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: yeah I was about to mention that
[12:49] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:49] Theresa Tennyson: Are the Lindens here familiar with SVC-7902?
[12:49] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7902
[#SVC-7902] Problem of not being able to rez on my land continues
[12:49] Motor Loon: But glad you made that FAQ page... I know I had my mind going with dark things when I first heard about Region Idle'ing... I'm at rest now
[12:50] Andrew Linden: AnnMarie, the logs are always looking, so yeah
[12:50] Andrew Linden: until we actually idle at zero FPS
[12:50] Qie Niangao: Theresa, glad you mentioned that one. It's nasty, and strange.
[12:50] Vincent Nacon: question Theresa... is your building platform a mega prim?
[12:50] Simon Linden: Yes, Theresa - Maestro Linden has been looking at that one
[12:50] Simon Linden: and it is nasty and strange
[12:50] Jonathan Yap: That was mentioned at the start of the meeting -- maybe someone can send her the chat log for that time
[12:51] Theresa Tennyson: Thank you!
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: because rezzing a prim on top of a mega prim is known issue
[12:51] Motor Loon: yeah
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: What is the definition of a mega prim these days?
[12:51] Theresa Tennyson: The prims rezz just fine - it's the testing to see if they CAN rezz that seems to be a problem.
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: more than 64m
[12:51] Simon Linden: Were you having problems at high altitude? That was one theory or maybe one flavor of it
[12:52] Motor Loon: sometimes it can be hard to rez ontop of water too I've seen
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: some mega prims are up over 256m
[12:52] Ashiri Sands: I encounter that bug often at the edges of where I'm rezzing stuff
[12:52] Vincent Nacon: but pretty much anything over 64m
[12:52] Simon Linden: Also there's a difference when you rez a coalesced object ... the point it tries to rez is the center of the object. But that may not be where the root prim is, which counts for permissions
[12:53] Simon Linden: That gets worse with bigger sizes
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: Simon, we get that issue a lot at racing track sim, we have few tracks spread out across the sky and most of them are mega prims
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: but I don't think height is the issue
[12:53] Ashiri Sands: When I looked at where I was rezzing objects I found line of sight to the terrain went to the next parcel
[12:53] Jonathan Yap: This problem seemed to crop up recently; would it be related to some navmesh feature change?
[12:54] Simon Linden: I don't think it's pathfinding code, that hasn't been widely release as far as I know
[12:54] Andrew Linden: only if the problem were limited to the "Second Life RC PF" channel
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: yeah not related to pathfinding.
[12:54] Andrew Linden: the navmesh stuff is not found anywhere else
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: this rezzing issue is over a year old now
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Qie Niangao: I think (some flavor of) the problem is older than that anyway... maybe way back to when there were changes in the object-entry permissions (coincidentally, maybe)
[12:55] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that sounds much more likely Qie.
[12:55] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[12:55] Simon Linden: Possibly -- I think there's likely a few different things going on
[12:56] Vincent Nacon: that's a pretty good guess because of the timing since then
[12:56] Qie Niangao: I'm sure some of the reports are "pilot error" too, which makes it hard
[12:56] Theresa Tennyson: It seems to be happening when the "ray" the object will be rezzed along hits no-rezz property.
[12:57] AnnMarie Otoole: Will there be any way to detect if a sim is on idle? If vehicles start to crash and I can't "watch" them how do I diagnose problems?
[12:57] Simon Linden: Theresa - does it happen 100% in your case?
[12:57] Simon Linden: You can check the state in llGetEnv(), AnnMarie
[12:57] Motor Loon: "In-world objects that use the llGetRegionTimeDilation() function will see increased time dilation during region idling. This is to be expected. The scripts should be updated and use the llGetEnv() function, passing in region_idle to see if the increased time dilation is due to region idling."
[12:57] Theresa Tennyson: I've just been experimenting - I'm sort of a volunteer fireperson.
[12:58] Jonathan Yap: If there is time for one last question would the server team like to implement svc-7917 or would you rather see that done in the viewer (in which case I could try making the needed change)
[12:58] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7917
[#SVC-7917] Please automatically unmute avatars who have muted themselves, and prevent this from occuring server-side.
[12:58] Theresa Tennyson: I can reproduce it sometimes and I've been commenting in the JIRA.
[12:58] Motor Loon: oh you can mute yourself?
[12:58] Simon Linden: Jonathan - it will be _much_ faster if you do it :)
[12:58] Jonathan Yap: Motor, not any more
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: you can't mute yourself anymore but you can throw your keyboard out the window
[12:59] Motor Loon: but thats gets expensive in the long run
[12:59] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Hrm... does the server get a message that you've muted yourself?
[12:59] Jonathan Yap: No, it just takes the UUID in that is sent to the mute list
[12:59] Kadah Coba: So network requests suspend the idling?
[12:59] Andrew Linden: Er... that is, does the server hear anything when you mute someone?
[13:00] Simon Linden: I think the server mostly does the list management, and most mute functionality is at the viewer level
[13:00] Andrew Linden: does it get a message about it? I'm wondering.
[13:00] Motor Loon: oh interesting... from CIG: "[12:59] Aztek Aeon: I have had numerous complaints today from tenants who are uable to rezz items on their own land. Getting the message "an not rez object at 0,0,0 Because The owner of this land does not allow it". It happening on different sims. Between that and the Search bug, they are fed up. Anyone else experiencing this?"
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Andrew Linden: Ah ok, then the server could indeed prevent you from muting yourself.
[13:00] Motor Loon: kinda a speak of the devil thing eh?`;-)
[13:00] Jonathan Yap: The server keeps the mute list, so it could check on login if you have muted yourself and undo it
[13:01] Jonathan Yap: I'll ping Oz about doing it viewer-side (and then hope the TPVs pick it up)
[13:01] Simon Linden: That makes me think there's a permissions check that's not being done at the correct time -- the position is bad
[13:01] AnnMarie Otoole: Yes, Motor, but re-logging always has fixed it.
[13:01] Simon Linden: sorry, "incorrect time"
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Ok I've got to run. Gotta be somewhere 1 minute ago.
[13:01] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: take care
[13:01] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Simon and Andrew and Kelly
[13:01] Nalates Urriah: bye
[13:02] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew, all... have fun
[13:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Thanks Simon & Andrew & Kelly.
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