Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.08.10

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Ardy Lay Baker Linden
Bonadea Avedon Cheesey Linden Davido Chrome
Emma Krokus Falcon Linden Jonathan Yap
Kallista Destiny Kennylex Luckless Moo Spyker
Motor Loon Roscko Cobalt Sahkolihaa Contepomi
Sweet Valentine Tiberious Neruda Toysoldier Thor

Transcript

[16:02] Baker Linden: Andrew is coming in soon

[16:02] Motor Loon: oh you'll manage it Baker... we have faith in you

[16:02] Motor Loon: °͜°

[16:02] Baker Linden: or RIGHT NOW!

[16:03] Motor Loon: hehe

[16:03] Motor Loon: ey Andrew

[16:03] Andrew Linden: Hello everyone.

[16:03] Tiberious Neruda: hello

[16:03] Andrew Linden: News for today...

[16:03] Baker Linden: cheesey will probably be coming in soon

[16:03] Motor Loon: she's always welcome

[16:04] Andrew Linden: The pathfinding code which was promoted to the main channel this week has at least two crash modes in it

[16:04] Motor Loon: o.O

[16:04] Motor Loon: no rollbacks!

[16:04] Motor Loon: dont you dare

[16:05] Andrew Linden: but Falcon has some fixes that appear to work, so those are going into a maintenance project.

[16:05] Davido Chrome: Was it to find those that you rolled them out with Nav-mesh default to on?

[16:05] Andrew Linden: Actually these crashes are somewhat random... they are hard to reproduce.

[16:05] Andrew Linden: and are not easily griefable as far as we can tell

[16:05] Motor Loon: well, thats good atleast

[16:06] Kallista Destiny: nods

[16:07] Andrew Linden: Meanwhile, there is a mysterious drop in parcel traffic calculations that doesn't look real but we haven't figured out why they aren't showing up right.

[16:07] Andrew Linden: It is a systematic drop that is not reflected in any of the other data.

[16:08] Motor Loon: traffic is overrated anyway °͜°

[16:08] Andrew Linden: In any case, parcel traffic is not used for search ranking anymore, from what I hear.

[16:08] Ardy Lay: Blame the middleware. ;-)

[16:08] Andrew Linden: Yeah, it is overrated so no need to pay attention or worry about it.

[16:08] Motor Loon: well, lots of whining about it

[16:08] Andrew Linden: I'm currently pulling a bunch of logs so I can try to calculate the amount of traffic at the data "source"

[16:08] Kallista Destiny: Well some people are quite upset about it

[16:09] Motor Loon: and ofcourse it should work, but hardly a showstopper

[16:09] Andrew Linden: to either duplicate the traffic reductions across multiple days, or not...

[16:09] Andrew Linden: whatever the outcome it will give me a clue as to where the problem lies.

[16:10] Tiberious Neruda: ...don't mind the silence. It's just us listening :3

[16:10] Andrew Linden: Yeah, traffic calculations ideally should be a good metric for personal consumption... tracking for your own purposes.

[16:10] Andrew Linden: So we'd like to get it right.j

[16:10] Motor Loon: we like when you get it right too °͜°

[16:10] Tiberious Neruda: yeah

[16:11] Kallista Destiny: Well people uset traffic to decide whither to put a story into a market.

[16:11] Kallista Destiny: Store

[16:11] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.

[16:11] Motor Loon: so the SEC stuff from yesterday was relating to these crashmodes?

[16:11] Emma Krokus: apologies for being late - hi everybody:)

[16:11] Baker Linden: I'm almost ready

[16:11] Andrew Linden: Good point Kallista. The data is still useful.

[16:11] Toysoldier Thor: if we have a parcel of land or a sim on the mainlands, is there any option for us to have PF disabled?

[16:11] Davido Chrome: SEC?

[16:11] Bonadea Avedon: honetly does traffic rlly do anything

[16:12] Motor Loon: or is that still a "no comments!" ,-)

[16:12] Andrew Linden: Toysoldier, I thought we did have a way to disable PF for private estates.

[16:12] Davido Chrome: I have a notecard

[16:12] Jonathan Yap: PF can be disabled with a console command for private regions

[16:12] Andrew Linden: Lemme ask Falcon for details (when I find him).

[16:12] Andrew Linden: I'll check the code now to see if I can find it.

[16:12] Toysoldier Thor: ok

[16:13] Sweet Valentine: so us mainland land owners are stuc with it?

[16:13] Ardy Lay: Why would disabling pathfinding be beneficial?

[16:13] Andrew Linden: Ah, Jonathan sounds right. That was what I was trying to remember.

[16:13] Toysoldier Thor: yes i think so

[16:13] Motor Loon: its simple enough... just open simconsole and type in "set dynamic_pathfinding false"

[16:13] Motor Loon: but dont fucking do it because of the panic rumors

[16:13] Andrew Linden: thanks Motor. I didn't know the command off the top of my head.

[16:13] Tiberious Neruda: but this brings me to a question I have regarding physics in the new server version (yep, again). I'm REALLY happy you guys got the avatar working right before the main release... but I tried showing a project I've been working on, only to find my simulation of different surfaces got thrown off by the new server. I'm just wondering if it's related to ApplyRotationalImpulse, or friction values...

[16:13] Toysoldier Thor: so it can be disabled at the sim owner level even if the sim is a mainland sim

[16:13] Jonathan Yap: You might want PF off in a combat sim

[16:14] Davido Chrome: Lag in Simball arenas went up rather dramatically with the PF rollout.

[16:14] Motor Loon: there's a current bug with rotational impulse aint there

[16:14] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, some more info about your content.... what is the avatar walking on, regular prims? meshy prims? terrain?

[16:14] Kallista Destiny: Bonadea, as I said, people use the traffic stats as a metric to decide weither to place a store in market on not. There is at least one person in the JIRA saying that someone recided against renting from him bcause of low traffic.

[16:14] Jonathan Yap: Is PF still running in debug mode?

[16:14] Tiberious Neruda: it's all object cllisions

[16:14] Tiberious Neruda: err all objects

[16:15] Andrew Linden: No Jonathan. Pathfinding is built in release mode as usual for release deploys.

[16:15] Jonathan Yap: Plus one has to optimize / con figure a PF region, marking objects as static or dynamic for best results

[16:15] Motor Loon: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-372?

[16:15] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-372] Invalid force in llApplyRotationalImpulse bug on Magnum (pathfinding)

[16:16] Tiberious Neruda: it's a sphere that has a rotational impulse applied on rez, moving over a set of prims with slightly different

(and increasing) friction values, to simulate a friction-reducing agent tapering off to bare surface underneath

[16:16] Tiberious Neruda: ...or, more simply, a common oil pattrn on a bowling lane

[16:16] Andrew Linden: Oh Tiberious... sounds quite sensitive to the details of how collisions are calculated.

[16:16] Davido Chrome: Andrew, since you need to optim ize the navmesh and stuff, why did you roll it out with the Nav-mesh default on? Seems to meka it more sense to make it opt-in instead of opt-out.

[16:16] Tiberious Neruda: right

[16:17] Ardy Lay: Probably won't make any difference is there are no navigating "Characters" in the region.

[16:17] Motor Loon: whatcha mean "default on" Davido? [16:17] Baker Linden: On Tuesday, I successfully displayed a group of

20k members in the viewer -- some data was missing, but the data loaded. However, there remains an issue with the sql query causing issues with the server. :( I have now found about 4 solutions on how not to fix the management of large groups. My next move is to switch over to use a cap, serving the data through HTTP. Thankfully, the time spent learning how this part of the server worked and the code I just wrote has to be ported over to utilize the cap, so it's coming along pretty well (apart from the fact that I'm rubbish at writing Python). Oz (Linden) announced yesterday at the TPV meeting that I'll be talking about this at the next TPV meeting in two weeks. The data will be sent in a new format (hopefully reducing its size) and TPV's will need those specs. That's all the news I have.

[16:17] Motor Loon: You're such a spammer baker °͜°

[16:17] Baker Linden: Yeah

[16:17] Baker Linden: I like to be thorough.

[16:18] Toysoldier Thor: so this is the message my sim owner gets when she tries to disable PF on her mainland sim.......

[16:18] Toysoldier Thor: > set dynamic_pathfinding false You are not authorized to set that parameter. This event has been logged.

[16:18] Andrew Linden: Well... if I could channel Falcon right now Tiberious he'd point out that relying on carefully tuned collision friction is a dangerous idea.

[16:18] Tiberious Neruda: under the old version, it would act like it

'should', starting to have the 'hook' effect as the ball rolled down the lane. However, now, the ball acts as if the entire lane is oiled

[16:18] Motor Loon: You must be EM toysoldier

[16:18] Andrew Linden: By which he would mean that he wouldn't do it ;-)

[16:18] Tiberious Neruda: no movement at all in the desired direction

[16:18] Andrew Linden: hrm... the "hook effect"?

[16:19] Davido Chrome: I mean, the Nav-mesh is on everywhere where people haven't turned it off.

[16:19] Andrew Linden: I'm unfamiliar with that term.

[16:19] Kallista Destiny: Bowling balls don't roll straight

[16:19] Motor Loon: you cant really turn navmesh off - you can only disable pathfinding

[16:19] Andrew Linden: Right, the reasoning for leaving the navmesh + pathfinding on by default was to try to make the pathfinding characters actually work in most places.

[16:19] Tiberious Neruda: it's complicated to explain, but the jist is that bowlers can influence the ball's movement by giving it rotation as it leavs the hand

[16:20] Kallista Destiny: they curve a variable amount

[16:20] Andrew Linden: And we expected (hoped?) that the physics performance wouldn't drop much.

[16:20] Davido Chrome: But will it in a region that hasn't been omptimized? I get the feeling characters would mostly be confused that way.

[16:20] Tiberious Neruda: and as the oil placed down to lower the friction between the ball and the lane tapers off, the stored rotation applies itself to the ball's path

[16:21] Kallista Destiny: Davido minly they might not be able to pass through doors, or much pass through walls

[16:21] Andrew Linden: At the moment, if you don't have any characters in the region then pathfinding shouldn't actaully add much to the physics simulation.

[16:21] Toysoldier Thor: and can a mainland sim owner optimize on the sim ot is this also the responsibility of the EM which is LL for mainlands

[16:21] Davido Chrome: Andrew, Physics performance seems good. But other players in the arena seem to float away a lot. And everyone is getting control lag.

[16:21] Kallista Destiny: Or perhaps throught scripted spikes

[16:21] Motor Loon: really sounds like thats going to be a sensative system nomatter what Tib

[16:21] Tiberious Neruda: true

[16:22] Andrew Linden: Hrm.... Davido, thanks for that tidbit. I wonder what that would indicate.

[16:22] Motor Loon: may wanna relay a bit less on physics and a bit more on doing some calculations with math in the script instead

[16:22] Andrew Linden thinks.

[16:22] Tiberious Neruda: ...but I'd hoped that that added realism would be a drawing point to what I was working on

[16:22] Motor Loon: for a consistent outcome

[16:22] Kallista Destiny: Yes but the world physics rules should remain consistant

[16:23] Davido Chrome: Physics actually seems improved. Less snagging and falling through walls.

[16:23] Roscko Cobalt: I agree with motor, might be better to make a list of outcomes

[16:23] Moo Spyker: I'm late sorry

[16:23] Kallista Destiny: that is Coef of friction should be consistant.

[16:23] Motor Loon: well, if you've played with Second Life™ physics a lot you know its not always that consistent ;-)

[16:23] Motor Loon: shame on you Moo!

[16:23] Motor Loon: °͜°

[16:23] Kallista Destiny draws a line through 'that'

[16:23] Davido Chrome: But in a game like Simball you really want to be able to keep track of the other players.

[16:23] Motor Loon: detention!

[16:23] Tiberious Neruda: I'm not talking about physics hiccups caused when a sim's under a lot of strain

[16:23] Tiberious Neruda: that's forgivable

[16:24] Davido Chrome: Also, the control lag makes it sometimes random what direction you are going.

[16:24] Motor Loon: did you see the jira I posted Tib?

[16:24] Motor Loon: about rot impulses

[16:24] Tiberious Neruda: yes

[16:24] Motor Loon: ok

[16:24] Tiberious Neruda: but I don't seem to be getting that particular error

[16:24] Moo Spyker: I've noticed horrible new problems with the physics, my vehicles get "stuck" on the terrain all the time now, they are only freed, but right clickign or another physical object, including AV's bumping into them

[16:25] Andrew Linden: Moo, I would guess that you are using some concave pieces in your vehicles.

[16:25] Tiberious Neruda: but for the laws to completely change every lunar year with unknown effects... well, THAT much I'd have issue with

[16:25] Kallista Destiny: It seems that the micro physics has changed and you going to have to re empirically generate your models

[16:25] Ardy Lay: "Control lag" and seeing people continuing on an inertial interpretation path then snapping back sounds like network trouble to me.

[16:25] Andrew Linden: Or else some very thin prims down near the bottom of the vehicle.

[16:25] Moo Spyker: convex_hull cylkinder prims as the groudn colliders

[16:25] Motor Loon: look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8048 moo...

[16:25] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8048] vehicles being very iratic and jittery on magnum regions

[16:25] Andrew Linden: Huh. That is not what I expected.

[16:26] Moo Spyker: not small either, like 1.5x1.5x0.5 prim cyliders set to convex_hull

[16:26] Andrew Linden: Moo, maybe you should give Falcon a copy of one of those vehicles to look at.

[16:26] Tiberious Neruda: I mean, I doubt we as a species would be where we were today if the same kinds of physics overhauls happened in the real world

[16:26] Davido Chrome: Moo, Cylinders are better set to Cylinders, they are a havoc primitive.

[16:26] Andrew Linden: Moo, what is the total approximate size of the vehicle?

[16:27] Tiberious Neruda: imagine waking up to find out that asphalt lost much of its friction

[16:27] Ardy Lay: Tib, skate!

[16:27] Moo Spyker: itsdecently large idk the size yet like 10 long by 5x5 ish

[16:27] Moo Spyker: 4 cyliders contact the groudn also

[16:27] Motor Loon: sounds good Tib... we could save alot of fuel that way °͜°

[16:27] Davido Chrome: Tib, infra structure nightmare...

[16:27] Moo Spyker: I can give him a copy of it

[16:27] Tiberious Neruda: Alve: exactly

[16:27] Andrew Linden: Well... if they are perfect cylinders (cicrcula cross section and no taper) then implicit cylinders might be better -- I'm not 100% sure.

[16:28] Davido Chrome: Luckily infra structure in SL = teleporting...

[16:28] Andrew Linden: Convex hull shapes as vehicle wheels should be pretty good, I think.

[16:28] Andrew Linden: I'll have to double check with Falcon.

[16:28] Moo Spyker: yeah, its odd, it will only get "stuck" when I come to a complete stop, then try to move again also, it never has happened while moving

[16:29] Motor Loon: I'm using sculpties and even they have been working fine for me during testing

[16:29] Toysoldier Thor: So Lindens... what progress on SL grid / sim lag reduction improvements tht takes load off the servers/viewers as opposed to another new feature on the grid that adds load?

[16:29] Davido Chrome: Andrew, unless something drastic has changed since I made that post about physics optimizations Havoc Cylinders should be the better choice.

[16:29] Andrew Linden: Oh Moo, that is interesting. The problem I was thinking of happens when moving, not when stopped.

[16:30] Moo Spyker: Anyways main reason I came, idk if the floor is open sorry if its not, but I want to hear some Lindens thoughts directly on this Jira I posted yesterday. Is there any hope for this at all? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-385?focusedCommentId=338590#comment-338590

[16:30] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-385] We NEED llPlaySoundAtLink!

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Motor Loon: oooh!

[16:30] Motor Loon: YES

[16:30] Motor Loon: I've been wanting that for a long time now...

[16:30] Toysoldier Thor: (for example - i have 50mbps Internet link - why does LL tell users that even though they could set the network bandwidth to max DONT set it more than 1.5mbps?)

[16:30] Andrew Linden: My guess then would be that your problem is related to some collision event not happening correctly when the vehicle has come to rest.

[16:31] Andrew Linden notes that Kelly Linden is not present.

[16:31] Kallista Destiny: Toy, becuse you have to share bandwidth with every avstar on the region with you

[16:31] Andrew Linden reads SRC-385...

[16:32] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I would agree... it doesn't sound hard to do.

[16:32] Motor Loon: would be nice if it was an ATTACHED sound ... directed to a certain prim in the linkset...

[16:32] Motor Loon: also could use a LOOP version of same

[16:32] Toysoldier Thor: maybe bigger internet pipes at LL 's end? I agree not 50 but at least 2 or 3

[16:32] Motor Loon: I have several products that would have 3-4 scripts cut if I could do that

[16:33] Andrew Linden: We're interested in cutting the necessary number of scripts needed to make content.

[16:33] Jonathan Yap: There is a viewer change in the pipeline which will make texture loading much faster (other services to receive the same improvement in the future)

[16:33] Motor Loon: Excactly Andrew

[16:33] Andrew Linden: I'll relay the request to Kelly so that it is on his radar.

[16:33] Moo Spyker: If that were to be added, controlling most things from just the root prim is possible then, I cant see any other LSL lines we would need after that

[16:33] Toysoldier Thor: good

[16:33] Roscko Cobalt: that would be great for storing prim animations

[16:34] Toysoldier Thor: because addressing the major lag factors should be a major priority so that new features are more feasible

[16:34] Tiberious Neruda: ....speaking of sounds... what's the deal with SoundQueueing? Would there be any way to queue multiple sounds after each other?

[16:35] Moo Spyker: One other thing I would like to know is if you guys EVER play to add more control input? For example the whole keyboard?

[16:35] Davido Chrome: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29416

[16:35] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-29416] Improve mouselook function to make vehicles align to mouselook view (Because the mouselook function is pretty much unusable in its current implementation)

[16:35] Andrew Linden: Tiberious, you mean sounds triggered by LSL? Putting them into a FIFO queue?

[16:36] Davido Chrome: Are there such things for inter-object script messages?

[16:36] Tiberious Neruda: sometimes it feels like even with sound queueing, you have to pretty much call them just the tiniest fraction of a second before the previous stops in order to avoid having gaps

[16:36] Andrew Linden: Moo, it would be hard to put all of the keys into the control pipeline... I think we currently store those as bits in a U32, and there aren't enough bits there.

[16:37] Motor Loon: ability to "fly planes" like in Microsoft Flight for example, using your mouse - would be VERY cool in Second Life™

[16:37] Motor Loon: actually... can't we already do that?

[16:37] Andrew Linden: We'd have to store them some other way. It's a little hard to modify that message, but might be possible.

[16:37] Andrew Linden: I'd have to study the message format to know for sure.

[16:38] Moo Spyker: So what about a few more keys? like numbers 1-4 or, R, Q, Z, X, C, etc.? It currently is very limiting for vehicle control input.

[16:38] Davido Chrome: Andrew, What about adding a few more keys?

[16:38] Motor Loon: Problem will be legacy support guys

[16:38] Motor Loon: plus viewer support

[16:38] Tiberious Neruda: I'm sure you have seen objects that will play a song (chopped up into 10-second chunks)

[16:39] Emma Krokus: please excuse me guys

[16:39] Andrew Linden: Yeah. If we did add some new fields to the message that currently stores controls... the content that uses them wouldn't work on old viewers.

[16:39] Andrew Linden: Not a blocker, but it would mean the content would work sometimes, and sometimes not.

[16:39] Motor Loon: it would be sweet - but probably not as easy as one might initially think

[16:39] Davido Chrome: motor, the mouslook functions I have tried using does not work very well. I was trying some workaround with llGetViewRotation or what it's called, and then set rotation. But it didn't mix with vehicle physics...

[16:39] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, with the upcoming server changes in the next several months there won't be many people using older viewers

[16:40] Motor Loon: Davido: ok...

[16:40] Moo Spyker: All makes sense, but don't the third party viewer just need to update that info, and just be delayed a few days/weeks?

[16:40] Andrew Linden: Hrm... Good point Jonathan. This might be a good time do make such changes.

[16:41] Motor Loon: lol we said that quite a few times now Jonathan... over the last many years...

[16:41] Roscko Cobalt: do you think in the future there will be better options for camera follow, ie cam follows a prim?

[16:41] Davido Chrome: Sorry, LlGetCameraRot

[16:41] Motor Loon: yet... they're still here

[16:41] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Yeah but server-side baking really does break 1.x viewers.

[16:41] Jonathan Yap: Motor, but this time it is true :)

[16:41] Andrew Linden: Yeah Motor, but it looks like it really is coming this time.

[16:41] Motor Loon: we'll I hope so!

[16:41] Tiberious Neruda: but I don't think LL's been too concerned with v1 clients

[16:41] Motor Loon: but Ill remain unconvinced

[16:41] Moo Spyker: To be fair also all this pathfinding stuff im sure was not "easy" but I would have taken new control input and the linksound over it in a heart beat =P plus now you guys have some free time, maybe? lol

[16:42] Motor Loon: haha

[16:42] Motor Loon: lindens with free time?

[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: Regarding and an update to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8082 ...

[16:42] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-8082] Proposed Global Service for SL: VIRTUAL LANDMARKS & VLM Mapping Services

[16:42] Motor Loon: never!

[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: Since last Friday there has been an amazing flurry of multiple articles and discussions on VLMs as well as the JIRA for VLMs has jumped from 15 to over 80 in just 1 week. The response on the idea of VLM's has been overwhelming & extremely positive from the SL residents that have heard about VLMs or read one of the many articles written about it. (I can post the 3 main VLM articles if you want to read them Lindens).

[16:42] Andrew Linden: Roscko, better camera follow features are not out of the question.

[16:42] Toysoldier Thor: So my questions to the Lindens are: 1) when might we see a Linden response on the VLM jira (it is still officially untouched)? 2) Bigger question is if there is such a strong nearly unanimous strong support for a VLM service being developed for SL... honeslty... is this a factor for LL to consider it as a development priority or am I am the other SL residents wasting our time trying to see VLMs coming to light?

[16:42] Davido Chrome: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29416

[16:42] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-29416] Improve mouselook function to make vehicles align to mouselook view (Because the mouselook function is pretty much unusable in its current implementation)

[16:42] Roscko Cobalt: do you think they will be able to add cam follow with pathfinding maybe

[16:42] Andrew Linden: That is, technically possible, but just need to get worked on.

[16:42] Davido Chrome: Never got a comment on this I think.

[16:42] Roscko Cobalt: would make for some nice content for sure

[16:43] Andrew Linden: Pathfinding is already live, so no not in the initial implementation.

[16:43] Andrew Linden: You want cam follow via pathfinding objects?

[16:43] Cheesey Linden: Toysoldier we are investigating the idea. When we have a better idea of the technical cost we will update the group/jira.

[16:43] Roscko Cobalt: yups

[16:43] Davido Chrome: You could allready do that, no?

[16:43] Andrew Linden: How would that work?

[16:43] Toysoldier Thor: that would be great

[16:43] Motor Loon: I dont much like "make vehicles do this or that"... but mabye "give us better readings of the mouse so we can do this or that"

[16:43] Roscko Cobalt: like 3rd person 1st person view

[16:44] Toysoldier Thor: have a lot of watchers wanting to see LL's response to this

[16:44] Jonathan Yap: It might be interesting to be able to "attach" your camera to a PF (or moving) object

[16:44] Andrew Linden: Oh, that reminds me of something I wanted to bring up here...

[16:44] Roscko Cobalt: yes like that

[16:44] Andrew Linden: for the most part the server just accepts the camera position as the viewer declares it

[16:45] Andrew Linden: but not the avatar position... the server controls that

[16:45] Toysoldier Thor: So Cheesey - is there anything I can spearhead for the Lindens on this VLM jira? I want to help LL out if they need help.... I dont want to see this jira die as do tons of other residents

[16:46] Andrew Linden: however... the server's interestlist has a hybrid strategy... sometimes the code uses the avatar's position to figure out what what is in view, and sometimes the avata's position

[16:46] Cheesey Linden: nothing right now. its a good idea, we just have to see if we can fit it into our schedule

[16:46] Toysoldier Thor: kk

[16:46] Andrew Linden: so... while I was doing a minor cleanup pass over the interestlist, in search of ways it could be fixed

[16:46] Cheesey Linden: which requires some research to see the extent of actual work involved

[16:46] Roscko Cobalt: hmm

[16:47] Andrew Linden: I considered fixing this weirdness to just use the camera position for figureing out what is in view

[16:47] Andrew Linden: however, there may be some worries about such a strategy from the residents

[16:47] Andrew Linden: so I wanted to get your opinions on the matter

[16:47] Toysoldier Thor: please keep in mind that the VLM concept can be a phased in approach.... it does not have to go in as one whole end-to-end solution... the VLM-Mapping Service is the key

[16:47] Roscko Cobalt: yah the updates of position may cause lag

[16:48] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: So you could have a DD of 32 but see the other end of a region?

[16:48] Jonathan Yap: If your camera is far away and an avatar appears near you then your radar might not register that fact

[16:48] Motor Loon: hmmm Andrew... really hard to tell what that would affect

[16:48] Davido Chrome: Motor, changed it from Improve mouselook to

"New mouselook", that way we can have both.

[16:48] Andrew Linden: Right Jonathan, that is the main issue I expected to be raised.

[16:48] Bonadea Avedon: u couldspy on ppl

[16:48] Roscko Cobalt: same with LOD

[16:48] Falcon Linden: Andrew: new llSensor flag to let you use camera position instead of avatar position in attachments?

[16:49] Jonathan Yap: There's also the PF character or object list data in the new floater (not sure if that would be affected as well)

[16:49] Motor Loon: oohmpf... not sure I would want you to mess with that Andrew °͜°

[16:49] Andrew Linden: The other issue... a minor technical one, would be that the camera can move much faster than the avatar under normal conditions, which might make for poorer sorting (incorrect, slower) when the camera is moving a lot.

[16:49] Kallista Destiny: well it is kind of strange that DD is not related to POV but rather is stuck to the localtion of your avatar.

[16:50] Andrew Linden: Which might lead to a little viewer lag, depending on implementations.

[16:50] Andrew Linden: Right Bonadea, it might be easier to spy on people at a distance.

[16:50] Roscko Cobalt: maybe for it to work it would have to mask the avatar and have them ride along

[16:50] Andrew Linden: On the other hand, virutal fly through's with the camera would be more correct.

[16:50] Kallista Destiny: Perv camming

[16:50] Davido Chrome: Disbale lookat would disable this though?

[16:50] Sweet Valentine: they already have that ability don't they lol

[16:51] Moo Spyker: O yeah there was one more item I just thought of, I there a way to seperate out the PRIM_TEXTURE, function from the setlinkprimitiveparams? It requires a texture key just to offset or rotate a texture from another prim. its a pain before I either need to make all my textures full perms so I can use the get texture function or I have to hard code the values in.. it seems there should be an easier way to simply offset the texture from another prim. Thoguhts?

[16:51] Motor Loon: I use my camera (flycam) alot for machinema, might film something (like a moving vehicle) while my avatar sits 300m away on a chair

[16:51] Jonathan Yap: There is a parcel setting to prevent avatar spying

[16:51] Sweet Valentine: just increase draw distance and disable cam constraints and u have perv cam

[16:51] Andrew Linden: Sweet is correct.

[16:51] Roscko Cobalt: would be a nice feature, just a pain to implement Im sure

[16:52] Andrew Linden: Jonathan is also correct, you can now make the content on your parcel invisible to some.

[16:52] Sweet Valentine: I call mine neighborhood watch cam

[16:52] Motor Loon: I'd certainly NOT want LOD to be determined by where my avatar is

[16:52] Kallista Destiny: well setting DD hihs can lead to viewer lag and even crashing as you swamp the Dispaly memory with textures

[16:52] Moo Spyker: or even just add a new flag like USE_CURRENT_TEXTURE in the same PRIM_TEXTURE function,

[16:52] Andrew Linden: Davido, when you say "disable lookat" you're referring to the invisible parcel option? (I don't know what it is called in the UI).

[16:53] Davido Chrome: What about privacy volumes? Res volumes in your house so that the insides are masked, but the outside is still visible.

[16:53] Davido Chrome: Would be a boring virtual world if privacy enabled parcels look empty.

[16:54] Bonadea Avedon: ∟☉∟

[16:54] Bonadea Avedon: privacy in sl what is this u speak of

[16:54] Toysoldier Thor: a related missing feature that would be SOOO HELPFUL at the parcel level (even though I know this can be over-ridding by the PC runnnig the viewer anyway) is for a parcel of land to have the ability to DISABLE CAMERA / SNAPSHOT functions

(especially if you are running an art gallery - do you know how often SL residents come to art galleries and simply take a photo of what they should be buying?)

[16:54] Davido Chrome: Andrew, no, that's a third party viewer feature. You disable the viewer sending your camera focus point to the server.

[16:54] Motor Loon: you cant stop that anyway toy

[16:54] Andrew Linden: Ah I see what you mean Davido.

[16:55] Roscko Cobalt: yah they can print screen

[16:55] Roscko Cobalt: save to PS

[16:55] Motor Loon: even if inworld snapshot was blocked, you can even easier just to a screengrab with any other software

[16:55] Sweet Valentine: oh yes I like that idea Toy ability to turn off snapshots on a parcel

[16:55] Davido Chrome: ?

[16:55] Davido Chrome: Toysoldier, how the hell would you stop them from pressinhg Print scrn?

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:55] Toysoldier Thor: i know.... a PC Screen Capture can over ride it but at least the activity is more ntoiced

[16:55] Sweet Valentine: but yeah print screen they can do

[16:55] Kallista Destiny: Print screen is not noticable at all from inworld

[16:55] Andrew Linden: Motor is correct Toysoldier. It is impossible to prevent screenshots of what is visible in a context that must be able to render what is visible.

[16:55] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: You can't even prevent people from grabbing the frame buffer.

[16:56] Motor Loon: only thing you can do is NOT show them your art

[16:56] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, does your screen have a lot of yellow post-its stuck to it? About 6 weeks ago I asked for something you were going to look into and by now I have forgotten what it is :)

[16:56] Sweet Valentine: or watermark it

[16:56] Motor Loon: and have them buy it boxed up and promise to never rez it anywhere

[16:56] Motor Loon: lol

[16:56] Toysoldier Thor: with a Viewer's screenshots - I can set the resolution for inworld photos to much higher than a print screen

[16:56] Andrew Linden: Actually yes Jonathan. I've got lots of post its.

[16:56] Andrew Linden: Lemme look at my pile...

[16:56] Davido Chrome: Toysoldier, that's why you could never stop copybots. You can't show the world without uploading it to the users computers...

[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: sadly

[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: ok cancel that "good idea"

[16:57] Toysoldier Thor: hehe

[16:57] Roscko Cobalt: lols

[16:57] Kallista Destiny: Yet another "good Idea" shot down by the real world.

[16:57] Sweet Valentine: stooopid real life

[16:58] Roscko Cobalt: just tell them using print screen causes pc viruses

[16:58] Davido Chrome: I guess you could stop copybotting if Linden lab rendered every users graphics on their servers and streamed it as video...

[16:58] Ardy Lay: ISLAGIATT

[16:58] Andrew Linden: Sigh... I need a better system.

[16:58] Andrew Linden: And more time in the day.

[16:58] Davido Chrome: But, that would need sci-fi servers...

[16:58] Andrew Linden: I didn't find it Jonathan.

[16:58] Kallista Destiny: There is never enough time in the day.

[16:58] Motor Loon: actually people just need to raise their kids better - then we wouldnt have griefers or copybotters

[16:58] Jonathan Yap: I will try to look back at old meeting logs to see what I was asking, thanks Andrew for checking.

[16:59] Sweet Valentine: lol

[16:59] Toysoldier Thor: on a bigger picture question - knowing the Lindens are overwhelmed with development ideas that the job jar is overflowing.... has LL ever considered outsourcing some of the development work?

[16:59] Roscko Cobalt: good ?

[16:59] Ruca Aged Whisky (wear to drink) whispers: watch that third sip

[17:00] Andrew Linden: Sorta Toysoldier. We've done some outsourcing in the past.

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:00] Andrew Linden: Mostly on viewer work.

[17:00] Kallista Destiny: Thank you Andrew, baker and Cheesey

[17:00] Motor Loon: yeah that went well

[17:00] Motor Loon: grins

[17:00] Kallista Destiny: Lols

[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: not too successful?

[17:00] Sweet Valentine: Thank you Lindens

[17:00] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everybody

[17:00] Motor Loon: Viewer 2...

[17:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: v2 UI was outsourced IIRC.

[17:00] Roscko Cobalt: you should run contests with it :)

[17:00] Davido Chrome: Thank you!

[17:00] Toysoldier Thor: ahh ok

[17:00] Kallista Destiny: The Viewer-which-is-not-to-be-mentioned.

[17:01] Motor Loon: hehe

[17:01] Motor Loon: the evil one

[17:01] Sweet Valentine: Sl most hated viewer award?

[17:01] Roscko Cobalt: lols

[17:01] Ardy Lay: See 80/20 Studio and Productengine

[17:01] Davido Chrome: Aaw, you reset the v2 mentions counter.

[17:01] Toysoldier Thor: i was thinking if an autonomous service like VLM-MS could be scoped to be outsourced... just some thoughts

[17:02] Andrew Linden: I don't remember much about that evil viewer they're talking about. I was heads-down in the server code back then

[17:02] Kallista Destiny: It was a nice try.... be the Fail was strong in it.

[17:02] Andrew Linden: and it is all a blur today.

[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: thanks Lindens

[17:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[17:02] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh god 80/20 have an image of that UI...

[17:02] Kallista Destiny: Just as well it could have damaged you

[17:02] Motor Loon: ah ok, well... my coffee cup was getting low anyway'

[17:02] Roscko Cobalt: yups TY :)

[17:02] Sweet Valentine: I needed therapy after using V2

[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: lol

[17:02] Kallista Destiny: Ok good day Andrew

[17:02] Toysoldier Thor: i avoided it

[17:02] Bonadea Avedon: u still do sweet

[17:03] Motor Loon: Thanks for having us once again guys

[17:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: 'The redesign helped Second Life increase the number of active users by 40%. New user attrition dramatically decreased and accolades continue to flow in from existing users on the blogosphere. This project remains the biggest and most successful overhaul of the Second Life experience since its creation.'

[17:03] Kallista Destiny: I tried it, I really did, it was just too painful

[17:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: xD

[17:03] Sweet Valentine: me to I have a magic box separation issue now

[17:03] Ardy Lay: 80/20 Studio seems to think that 80 percent of the users only use 20 percent of the product. The rest be damned.

[17:03] Toysoldier Thor: after looking at cheesey for an hour - I am gettbnig a hankering for some cheese

[17:03] Kallista Destiny: I thought that was Display names?

[17:04] Motor Loon: no taking bites out of Cheesey!

[17:04] Kennylex Luckless: Is that chees?

[17:04] Davido Chrome: Are you sure he isn't a french fry?

[17:04] Sweet Valentine: that bottles bigger than you is Bon

[17:04] Kallista Destiny: Or single names that increased the user base

[17:04] Cheesey Linden: french fry!

[17:04] Motor Loon: she

[17:04] Roscko Cobalt: lols

[17:04] Bonadea Avedon: yup

[17:04] Davido Chrome: I mean, the name aside, but still.

[17:04] Bonadea Avedon: drunk forever

[17:04] Sweet Valentine: food?

[17:04] Kallista Destiny: Pom frit!



Simulator_User_Group

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