Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.11.20
|Prev 2012.11.13||Next 2012.11.27|
List of Speakers
|Baker Linden||Chieron Tenk||Davido Chrome|
|Inara Pey||Jonathan Yap||Motor Loon|
|Nalates Urriah||NullSubset Burner||Qie Niangao|
|Rex Cronon||Simon Linden||Sonya Haight|
|Tankmaster Finesmith||Theresa Tennyson||Whirly Fizzle|
[12:00] Davido Chrome: Simon must have a script that TPs him on the exact time.
[12:01] Simon Linden: I'm really just a well-programmed bot
[12:01] Sonya Haight: inside a little more please Simon, some couldn't hear you in the other corner last time
[12:01] Davido Chrome: Bring out the Turing tests!
[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith: howdy simon!
[12:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: heyas baker!
[12:02] Baker Linden: 'ello 'ello
[12:02] Simon Linden: ok, I'll over over here -- does that cover the roof?
[12:02] Simon Linden: Hover over*
[12:02] Sonya Haight: I think so
[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Simon.
[12:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: I can read your type fine
[12:02] Davido Chrome: According to my ring when camming on you you cover everyone now.
[12:03] Simon Linden: Hello Everyone ... I can get started with the news, which is pretty slim
[12:03] Simon Linden: There are no updates to the servers this week due to the holiday in the USA
[12:03] Davido Chrome: You can always turn on that feature that shows if people are in speaking range via name tag colour.
[12:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: davido, thats only in phoe/fs
[12:03] Davido Chrome: Oh.
[12:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[12:04] Tankmaster Finesmith: hi rex
[12:04] Simon Linden: Next week there will likely be an update to the RC channel, but I'm not sure about Tuesday's main channel
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi tank master
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.
[12:04] Simon Linden: We're going to be discussing that later today at the Lab
[12:04] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
[12:05] Simon Linden: So that's it for my news
[12:05] Davido Chrome: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-800
[12:05] Simon Linden: I guess the table is open...
[12:05] Sonya Haight: what about the world map missing strips, any news on that?
[12:05] Baker Linden: I'm working on improving object rezzing and trying to make it a bit faster -- it's slowly coming together, but I don't have any news on when it'll be done
[12:06] Simon Linden: BUG-800 would be a nice feature to have, but I can't give any guesses on how long it would take
[12:06] Nalates Urriah: Baker, That is a follow on to Andrew's Interest List work?
[12:06] Tankmaster Finesmith: or montie's http stuff?
[12:07] Davido Chrome: IS it related to objects following you from the last sim for a second during simcrossings?
[12:07] Simon Linden: Monty's http stuff is going in the viewer ... I know the first part is somewhere in the QA pipeline but dont' know the recent status
[12:07] Tankmaster Finesmith: its in viewer beta
[12:07] Baker Linden: The interest list is more of a process of which assets to load
[12:07] Nalates Urriah: Thx
[12:07] Baker Linden: what I'm trying to improve is the speed at which an object is rezzed
[12:07] Simon Linden: Baker's rezzing work is to get rid of a lag event when rezzing objects
[12:08] Nalates Urriah: ...does that include avatars?
[12:08] Baker Linden: If you get a really complex object, with many large meshes, or large LLSD files, it takes a while to rez into the world
[12:08] Simon Linden: I believe it will help reduce lag when rezzing AVs attachments
[12:08] Baker Linden: I'm trying to reduce that.
[12:09] Rex Cronon: there is always going to be some lag, at least for complex objects that r rezzed for the first time
[12:09] Nalates Urriah: thx of the additional explanation.
[12:09] Nalates Urriah: thx for^
[12:09] Baker Linden: correct, Rex. But the reading and parsing of the large files is not done asynchronously, which is what I'm adding
[12:09] Simon Linden: I'm not sure how much faster it's going to get (if at all) but the sim fps should lag less for big complex stuff
[12:09] Yuzuru Jewell: http texture is very slow from Japan.
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: monty is working on draskicly improving http image fetching
[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell: We test Project Viewer. It is faster than official Viewer. But it is slower than UDP.
[12:10] Simon Linden: Hopefully some of Monty's work will help with that, Yuzuru, but it is sending data halfway around the world
[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: drastically*
[12:11] Yuzuru Jewell: We think it is because Japanese network environment.
[12:11] Baker Linden: It should help ease rezzing the object sim-side, but there may not be any major gains viewer-side
[12:11] Davido Chrome: I think it's the same in Sweden actually.
[12:12] Davido Chrome: http: textures are slower than the alternative.
[12:12] Tankmaster Finesmith: the second fase will be server side changes, and based on his bug report he filed, it speed things up to the point where the server almost can't keep up :D
[12:12] Nalates Urriah: Is HTTP COmpression in use in any of the current test HTTP stuff from Monty?
[12:12] Simon Linden: On pathfinding for swimming characters - does pathfinding currently run underwater? Is that usually a walkable surface?
[12:12] Yuzuru Jewell: In japan, UDP not causes error.
[12:13] Simon Linden: I don't know details about Monty's work - the viewer forums or user group would be a better place to ask
[12:13] Davido Chrome: Simon, there isn't even a Navmesh under water. It stops dead where the land goes under water.
[12:13] Nalates Urriah: Simon Navmesh stops at water's edge...
[12:13] Simon Linden: ah, ok -- I suspect that's a fair amount of work then
[12:13] Yuzuru Jewell: And HTTP eats much CPU Power..
[12:13] Simon Linden: It would have to be a new surface category, I think
[12:14] Davido Chrome nods. I really wanted to amke fish,
[12:14] Qie Niangao: Davido, that thing you mentioned about objects "reflecting" from the opposite side of the sim you just left: Do we know if that's a viewer bug or a sim thing? (In the past, I've seen parcel names "reflect" like that, and even thought I got collisions from those objects, so I'm thinking something server-side.)
[12:14] Nalates Urriah: I think it would be hard to keep a fish in the water as it swam toward the shore.
[12:14] Davido Chrome: And flying creatures. The Navmesh doesn't seem to have any interface for flying charachters.
[12:14] Simon Linden: Fish would be cool - but I wonder how much support there is for volumetric pathfinding. If it was possible to do fish, then it would seem possible to do birds
[12:15] Nalates Urriah: Yeah, I think birds would be easier. No ceiling.
[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, right now its just 2d
[12:15] Simon Linden: Adding the 3rd dimension may be a really fundamental change to the pathfinding engine ... and I have no clue what it really supports
[12:15] Rex Cronon: the fish would have to constantly check if they r under water:)
[12:15] Davido Chrome: Isn't pathfinding volumetric per default? Just put exclusion volumes to cover your houses.
[12:16] Nalates Urriah: Alve, no. Only the exclusion ting is, AFAIK
[12:16] Tankmaster Finesmith: no, right now its just 2d, you can't move up or down away from the surfice of the ground ot object
[12:16] Davido Chrome: Rex. Well, they would just need to check what height they are on. That data is in the normal operation, right? Because it needs to know where it is anyway?
[12:18] Rex Cronon: if u suddenly raise/lower the water level the fish might be in trouble if only checked the height
[12:18] Davido Chrome: But. use the workaround solution I mentioned. Then we can make fish PF chracters with the visual part below the physical part.
[12:18] Baker Linden: I imagine it'll be a lot of work to implement a nav volume rather than a nav mesh, but it would be possible -- I'm also unsure of what our current pathfinding stuff supports
[12:18] Baker Linden: so I could be totally off-base
[12:18] Simon Linden: I wonder how the pathfinding code handles a low tunnel now ... if it has any concept of how tall the character is.
[12:19] Theresa Tennyson: I think pathfinding characters are all actually boxes but the system checks how tall the box is.
[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith: whatever happened to the PF folks joining this UG? :P
[12:19] Simon Linden: That sounds reasonable, Theresa
[12:20] Jonathan Yap: Simon, it does have a defined "height" for the characters, Falcon had to come up with some large-ish number
[12:20] Simon Linden: Sometimes Falcon drops by
[12:20] Davido Chrome: Also, the sim I am janitoring/landscaper at is archipelago like. If I can't have water PF I would at least want to have Islands as different zones, so it would be a lot less hazzle to make workarounds...
[12:20] Simon Linden: Have any of you built or come across some good pathfinding objects or critters ?
[12:21] Davido Chrome: I made a snake, but all it does is follow me as yet.
[12:21] Simon Linden: Nice
[12:22] Davido Chrome: This roof isn't walkable....
[12:22] Simon Linden: I was playing with the settings here and the house is a problem ... ideally I'd like the roof to be walkable, but my first attempts froze the doors
[12:22] Davido Chrome: Froze the Doors??
[12:22] Rex Cronon: why don't u guys have competition of who makes the smartest/fastest/interesting/weird PF object:)
[12:22] Davido Chrome: Are they in teh same linkset?
[12:22] Simon Linden: They stopped working because they're linked
[12:23] Nalates Urriah: Put a prim over the roof, make it invis and walkable...
[12:23] Simon Linden: yeah, I need to do something like that
[12:23] Theresa Tennyson: Has anyone looked at the extreme physics memory allocation that was reported at Jinxies earlier? Because it looks like I'm seeing something similar on another sim.
[12:23] Motor Loon: I have a sim that does that
[12:24] Motor Loon: and when it happens you cannot rez or attach items anymore
[12:24] Simon Linden: Yes, I believe Maestro looked at Jinxies but didn't find anything
[12:24] Whirly Fizzle: That seems to be happening a lot lately on homesteads
[12:24] Theresa Tennyson: Lolita Park was up to 595 megabytes earlier today. I didn't notice problems attaching things though.
[12:24] Motor Loon: Reed Linden knows a bit about it
[12:24] Theresa Tennyson: Motor, what goes on at that sim?
[12:25] Nalates Urriah: That pop up is really annoying.
[12:25] Simon Linden: One theory is the physics memory is also being used by pathfinding, so it's easier to hit the limit
[12:25] Baker Linden: Falcon just told me it'd be about 3 months of work to get volumetric pathfinding -- and that still wouldn't handle dynamic avoidance (which is the hard part). Theoretically, it's not that hard -- it's having to rework some havok systems to work with intermediate data
[12:25] Motor Loon: Reed's response to our tickets: http://pastebin.com/X6r6y5eW
[12:25] Davido Chrome: Hum, I guess you can make birds if you make invisible tracks for them in the sky.
[12:26] Rex Cronon: u make tubes in the sky for birds to follow?
[12:26] Chieron Tenk: that wouldnt really be nice for people flying around
[12:26] Davido Chrome: Well, tubes are so inefficient. Would they fall off if it didn't have a railing or something?
[12:27] Simon Linden: Motor - what's the content like there? Is there any type in particular that gets heavy usage?
[12:27] Davido Chrome: What about workaround; Walkable surfaces that are phantom for everything but defined pathfinding characters?
[12:27] Motor Loon: Not really... regular homestead setup with a shop and some decor/plants
[12:27] Rex Cronon: if u r in a tube how can u fall out? unless it has holes in it:)
[12:29] Qie Niangao: Motor, that pastebin is fascinating... that particle emitters might (maybe) be where the bug resides.
[12:29] Theresa Tennyson: If you put a network of tubes with characters going through them on your sim the server will PROBABLY dcatch fire.
[12:29] Motor Loon: basically, when it happens you get "[12:00] Second Life: Unable to create item that has caused problems on this region." when trying to rez or attach anything... also creating a new object (like a standard box) does produce the box, but it becomes oddly-phantom
[12:30] Theresa Tennyson: Actually it seems to be a big problem with, um, strip clubs.
[12:30] Motor Loon: sim restart solves it, but it comes back after an hour or so
[12:30] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what the connection with particle emitters would be .... they should really have no interaction with physics memory
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Davido Chrome: Woot, oit works!
[12:30] Qie Niangao: would have to be quite a strange bug
[12:30] Theresa Tennyson: I remember hearing something similar happening with a train on the Wengen region or someplace.
[12:30] Motor Loon: I'm sure there's emmiters there... but then again, I've seen lots of sims with more extensive use of such without an issue.
[12:31] Simon Linden: Under the hood, the region realizes it's using too much physics memory, so stops adding stuff to world that would take up even more
[12:31] Motor Loon: nods
[12:31] Rex Cronon: a particle emitter is a physical object?
[12:31] Simon Linden: So the behavior you're seeing is the region trying to stay alive by not using too much physics memory, which is a common griefer attempt
[12:31] Davido Chrome: Anyway, what about a way for PF characters to recognize drawbridges?
[12:32] Rex Cronon: what i u were to make those particle emitters phantom?
[12:32] Simon Linden: Normally you hit that with a ton of collisions - take a bunch of phantom objects, make them all overlap, then set them physical - there's a geometrically expanding number of collisions there
[12:32] Whirly Fizzle: OOh thats interesting about the particle emitters. My Homestread maxed out the other day, it was about 260Mb memory allocated & I couldnt rez. A restart fixed it. But I do have a lot of particle emitters rezzed at the moment for poking at a particle bug.
[12:32] Nalates Urriah: Alve just use movable pims... They will show up in the Navmesh.
[12:33] Davido Chrome: The current limitations are big enough to really put a damper in my will to work with it.
[12:33] Simon Linden: With the current feature set, it seems you're pretty much stuck on dry land
[12:33] Qie Niangao: *if* it actually has anything to do with particles, it would have to be something really obscure and nonsensical. But it would be fun, if true.
[12:34] Rex Cronon: could it be that each particle generated is an actual objects that havok sees?
[12:34] Davido Chrome: Nal, my drawbridges doesn't show up. Giving them a PF option is greyed out.
[12:34] Simon Linden: yeah, I'd really be curious how particles could affect physics memory -- they're really 99% viewer side
[12:34] Theresa Tennyson: What's the actual limit on physics memory for a full sim?
[12:36] Theresa Tennyson: Okay, the physics memory for this sim is skyrocketing as we speak.
[12:36] Theresa Tennyson: It's back down.
[12:36] Simon Linden: I think it's a GB or something insanely large like that -- homesteads are typically 1/4 full region limits
[12:37] Simon Linden: I see 120 MB - that seems huge to me
[12:37] Simon Linden: Davido - can you walk around a bit more? Let's see if the snake has an effect
[12:37] Theresa Tennyson: It was over 200 minutes ago when the snake was following AlveKatt.
[12:37] Davido Chrome: This is a deceptively simple PF shape. All the visual parts are set to physics shape none. The only physical part is the invisible root box.
[12:38] Simon Linden: hmmm, seems to be stable at 116 MB
[12:38] Davido Chrome: There seems to be a decidely big effect when it needs to recalculate it's intended path.
[12:39] Rex Cronon: there r quite a few avatars here. that might affect calculations
[12:39] Simon Linden: yes, but maybe that's what it takes to cause the ubg
[12:39] Simon Linden: bug
[12:40] Simon Linden: Interesting, I'm not seeing the physics memory change at all
[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: did the region just die?
[12:41] Motor Loon: looks hurting atleast °?°
[12:41] Davido Chrome: I can't move...
[12:41] Davido Chrome: I think we killed the sim...
[12:41] Simon Linden: Now there was an epic lag event
[12:41] Rex Cronon: nope
[12:41] Rex Cronon: laggggggggg.........
[12:41] Baker Linden: laaaag
[12:41] Baker Linden: I'm still here, Tank
[12:41] Nalates Urriah: FPS hit 1.7
[12:41] Qie Niangao: Dilation is huge
[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: wow
[12:41] Tankmaster Finesmith: the regions around us dissapeared, now they just returned
[12:42] Chieron Tenk: sim fps 0.3 .. at least the ping is back from 5000
[12:42] Simon Linden: Check out the performance graph
[12:42] Simon Linden: "It's not dead yet!"
[12:42] Rex Cronon: the twilight zone:)
[12:42] Motor Loon: epic region burp
[12:42] Davido Chrome: Crap, did I cause this?
[12:42] Tankmaster Finesmith: that was... interesting
[12:43] Simon Linden: So what's actually going on -- you have the PF snake, and these soldier guys are PF too ?
[12:43] Motor Loon: yeah
[12:43] Davido Chrome: I deleted the snake...
[12:43] Simon Linden: and look at the graph again
[12:43] Davido Chrome: Thought it might be smart...
[12:44] Motor Loon: Unlikely its the PH chars, I've had a tonnes of these out without problems before
[12:44] Davido Chrome: I can move again!
[12:44] Rex Cronon: one single snake was doing all the lag?
[12:44] Rex Cronon: if that is true than we r in trouble:(
[12:44] Simon Linden: Ton of which - the snake or the solider guys?
[12:44] Motor Loon: the soldiers
[12:45] Simon Linden: things seem reasonable now
[12:46] Simon Linden: Hmm, interesting ... I'll check the server logs and see if I can match up the chat times with anything interesting
[12:46] Rex Cronon: do the soldiers move their limbs?
[12:46] Rex Cronon: yes they sim to
[12:46] Rex Cronon: seem*
[12:46] Davido Chrome: It seems that the biggest disps where when other avatars were moving and got in the snakes way.
[12:47] Simon Linden: The region seems nice and fast now -- 12ms sleep time, so it's only using about half the available CPU time
[12:47] Theresa Tennyson: I saw the jump in physics memory around 12:35
[12:47] Simon Linden: That would probably cause some sort of new path generation - I can imagine that's expensive
[12:47] Sonya Haight: try the snake again?
[12:47] Motor Loon: Since when did Second Life™ need a reason to misbehave? ;-)
[12:48] Sonya Haight: odd
[12:48] Sonya Haight: seems ok now
[12:48] Rex Cronon: i think that because the soldiers move their limbs is why is the extra lag
[12:50] Sonya Haight: are we still here?
[12:50] Davido Chrome: This was why I sugegsted that thing with Rezzable avatars. Like bots, only all animations and stuff are from the avatar stuff. Rezable empty avatars that you can script.
[12:50] Rex Cronon: yes
[12:50] Sonya Haight: shew got really quiet
[12:50] Simon Linden: Physics memory is still at 116 MB, so whatever we did, it didn't change at all
[12:50] Davido Chrome: And attach clothes and stuff on the same way your own avatar.
[12:52] Simon Linden: There's only 2200 or so objects in this region, so it should be running pretty good
[12:52] Theresa Tennyson: I happened to look at the map earlier and there was a griefing attack going on in Satori (the big continent south of Nautilus) that was literally visible from space. I don't know if it's ongoing.
[12:53] Nalates Urriah: Has anyone heard anything about: "[L4L]-Gestures & Walkers (Freebies) being s griefer gift?
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: Yes it is
[12:53] Whirly Fizzle: Its a variation on that Exdepart
[12:53] Rex Cronon: ?
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/exdepart
[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: [L4L]- Gestures & Walkers (Freebies) <3 is the one thats getting used a lot atm
[12:54] Simon Linden: yes, it's pretty much an ugly social-engineering griefer ploy
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Rex Cronon: lol
[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: Mems gone up o.O
[12:55] Motor Loon: 135mb
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: Oh! Hmm when the metter said something?
[12:56] Whirly Fizzle: *meeter
[12:56] Rex Cronon: is good that it doesn't say: rez me to get free lindens
[12:56] Simon Linden: yeah, that's how to do it :P
[12:56] Motor Loon: lol... and it fell to 129mb
[12:57] Theresa Tennyson: CHEEZ BALLS!
[12:57] Tankmaster Finesmith: :D
[12:57] Simon Linden: I wonder if the memory clean up is too infrequent
[12:57] Sonya Haight: thats bad, cheese balls is what I was thinking too
[12:57] Motor Loon goes to get candy from the kitchen
[12:57] NullSubset Burner: was wondering same thing actually
[12:58] Sonya Haight: mean, I just went to the dentist
[12:58] Davido Chrome: I tried to make a sea of balls ones, you know, like at MCdonalds. That was a lagger.
[12:58] Simon Linden: well, we're almost out of time ... this was a good discussion and play trying to figure out what's going on
[12:58] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol I bet
[12:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: have a great thanks giving for all of you in the US
[12:59] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today
[12:59] NullSubset Burner: Thanks for time busy Lindens:)
[12:59] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, Baker.
[12:59] Tankmaster Finesmith: and a fun long weekend to all you lindens ?
[12:59] Inara Pey: Thanks, Simon, Baker, all
[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Thank you :)
[12:59] Rex Cronon: weekend? oh thanksgiving
[12:59] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens
[12:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you..
[12:59] Simon Linden: See you next time
[13:00] Rex Cronon: right. have fun all those that have extra long weekend:)
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Sonya Haight: aww no answer on the missing map strips
[13:00] Simon Linden: ah, yes, Sonya - some peopel did look into that
[13:00] Rex Cronon: tc simon, baker
[13:00] Simon Linden: It seems the map generation servers were overloaded
[13:00] Motor Loon: They probably are still looking for them Sonya °?°
[13:00] Sonya Haight: will they every fix it?
[13:01] Simon Linden: Some were cleaned up, but I don't think it's 100% yet
[13:01] Sonya Haight: I'm really missing my map
[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and enjoy your day(s) off. that is if u have any
[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: Yes, after they fix the release notes :P
[13:01] Davido Chrome: Thanks for today!
[13:01] Baker Linden: See you next week everyone. For those of you in the US, have a great Thanksgiving! For those of you not in the US, have a fantastic Thursday! See you all next week!
[13:02] Tankmaster Finesmith: no meeting on thursday, just a s reminder
[13:02] Inara Pey: Happy Thanksgiving to those of you in the US.
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