User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 11 27

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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:03] Andrew Linden: Is this another meeting? Or are you here for my office hours?
[11:07] Andrew Linden: Hey Dan
[11:08] Dan Linden: Hello
[11:08] Asiana Jewell: hello all
[11:08] Andrew Linden: This isn't the usual crowd. I think my regulars have lost interest this week.
[11:08] Dan Linden: This the first office hours I've attended.
[11:08] Andrew Linden: Hi Asiana.
[11:08] Caligula Ferraris: hi all
[11:08] Asiana Jewell: hi..
[11:08] Caligula Ferraris: wb sorraya ;)
[11:08] Sorraya Pera: ty
[11:08] Andrew Linden: Perhaps there is another event planned here? This is a public location for holding meetins
[11:09] Andrew Linden: perhaps I've conflicted
[11:09] Andrew Linden: Hey everybody. I usually hold an office hour here on Tuesdays 11-12
[11:09] Andrew Linden: the purpose of the hour is just to be available for questions
[11:09] Caligula Ferraris: sorraya ... now you can tell all your complaints ;)
[11:09] Asiana Jewell: cool
[11:10] Sorraya Pera: ?
[11:10] Sorraya Pera: a what
[11:10] Caligula Ferraris: all your anger ;)
[11:10] Asiana Jewell: well my hands like have a mind of it's own when am using my voice chat
[11:10] Andrew Linden: '
[11:10] Kitto Flora mutters about wretched forced updates
[11:10] Asiana Jewell: let me show u
[11:10] Andrew Linden: Hey Kitto
[11:10] Sorraya Pera: haha
[11:10] Kitto Flora: Hello
[11:11] Asiana Jewell: hi kitto
[11:11] Asiana Jewell: my hands agan
[11:11] Asiana Jewell: Ha ha ha ha - he he he!!! =D
[11:11] Andrew Linden: btw Dan, James says he thinks the sit behavior in Havok4 is fine
[11:12] Andrew Linden: I'm going to try to get Ben to try it also.
[11:12] Dan Linden: sounds good, Andrew
[11:12] Andrew Linden: Kitto, the update is this: we'll probably actually update the Havok4 preview today
[11:12] Kitto Flora: OK
[11:12] Dan Linden: If I don't find a showstopper :)
[11:12] Kitto Flora: Whats getting fixed?
[11:13] Andrew Linden: We've fixed a nummber of bugs. One notable change is the sitting behavior... it has been redone again
[11:13] Andrew Linden: and is diffrent from Havok1
[11:14] Andrew Linden: Kitto, if you're so inclined it would be cool if you could log into the Havok4 preview today and test it out, let me know what you think.
[11:14] Andrew Linden: Go to Chartreuse or Bisque, those are the only regions that have the updated sit code right now.
[11:15] Kitto Flora: I can do tonight for sure... later today.. depends on RL
[11:15] Kitto Flora: What do you want tested?
[11:15] Andrew Linden: I'm trying to convince some other Lindens that the new sit behavior in Havok4 is what we want.
[11:15] Kitto Flora: OK
[11:15] Andrew Linden: It now tries to sit you as close as possible to where you actually clicked
[11:15] Kitto Flora: Chatreues/Bisque, sitting
[11:15] Squirrel Wood: Yes!
[11:16] Andrew Linden: but it also searches for an edge to sit on using ray-tracing
[11:16] Squirrel Wood: That would be an improvement :)
[11:16] Andrew Linden: it searches from four directions to where you clicked and picks the one that provides the closest result
[11:16] Andrew Linden: (1) from your avatar's head
[11:16] Andrew Linden: (2) from the camera position
[11:17] Andrew Linden: (3) from the "symmetric camera position" -- negated direction but at the same height
[11:17] Andrew Linden: and (4) from the camera position, but lifted so that it is gauranteed to be aiming down at the object with an elevation of PI/4
[11:18] Andrew Linden: (1) is to try to sit you on an edge closer to your avatar
[11:18] Andrew Linden: (2) is try a best-fit from the direct camera view
[11:18] Kitto Flora: Does this only affect objects with no script-applied Sit Pos?
[11:19] Andrew Linden: (3) is just in case you clicked near an edge that is facing away from the camera
[11:19] Andrew Linden: and (4) is for when you're clicking on an edge that is higher than the camera and avatar
[11:19] Andrew Linden: so... the sit scan does four short ray-trace scans from those directions
[11:20] Andrew Linden: and if all of those fail, then it scans again but from farther out... just in case the nearest edge is behind both the avatar and camera
[11:20] Andrew Linden: some other lindens feel that getting the "I can't sit there" error is unacceptable
[11:20] Andrew Linden: so I made it try harder
[11:20] Andrew Linden: however, there are always failure modes...
[11:20] Kitto Flora: 'no place to sit' sure is peky at times
[11:20] Andrew Linden: for instance, you can't sit on something that is too far away
[11:21] Kitto Flora: How far is too far?
[11:21] Andrew Linden: Any questions?
[11:22] Kitto Flora: Just the ones I asked
[11:22] Andrew Linden: Lemme read the backlog... or ask them again.
[11:22] Kitto Flora: Does this only affect objects with no script-applied Sit Pos?
[11:22] Kitto Flora: How far is too far?
[11:22] Andrew Linden: objects with sit-targets sit normally. The sit-target is checked first
[11:23] Andrew Linden: too far is 8 meters from avatar center
[11:23] Andrew Linden: autoreturn took the table
[11:23] gtable: rezzed. click to remove
[11:23] Kitto Flora: 8M not far... cant sit on roof tops :(
[11:24] Andrew Linden: Kitto, the Havok1 code limit was 7 meters for some reason
[11:24] Andrew Linden: I bumped it up to a nice round power of 2
[11:24] Kitto Flora: That 7M is a recent thing...
[11:24] Andrew Linden: really?
[11:24] Andrew Linden: What do you think the limit should be?
[11:24] Squirrel Wood: this ring here often tells people that there is no room to sit but will actually let them sit once they zoom in on it really close and then click it once
[11:24] Kitto Flora: Used to be one could select-sit on stuff far away. Was fun for jumping around roofs
[11:24] Andrew Linden: Should you be able to sit on objects all the way across the region?
[11:25] Kitto Flora: Well....
[11:25] Kitto Flora: *giggle*
[11:25] Kitto Flora: It depends if you want fun, or reality
[11:25] Squirrel Wood: Yes. If the autopilot doesn't overcompensate and actually can get you to the point...
[11:25] Dan Linden: you couldn't sit all away across the region, but it was much farther than it currently is.
[11:25] Andrew Linden: I don't know who put the 7 meter limit in. I don't think it was me.
[11:26] Andrew Linden: How long ago did it appear?
[11:26] Kitto Flora: Actually the sit on the roof was useful in a sim where there was a fly-ban, and walls too steep to climb
[11:26] Kitto Flora: 7M limit - a year or so
[11:26] Squirrel Wood: Yay for mute ^^^
[11:27] Kitto Flora: When was the NeverLand build? 2 years back? It was not in place then
[11:27] Andrew Linden: Other changes in Havok4... we think we've fixed all of the crash modes -- we don't know of any at the moment.
[11:27] Squirrel Wood: cool
[11:28] Squirrel Wood: so two intersecting physical sculpties won't crash havok 4 ?
[11:28] Andrew Linden: There appears to be a pretty easy way to drag the physics frame rate down to the 30's or 20's with just one or two objects
[11:28] Andrew Linden: We'll have to look into that one.
[11:28] Squirrel Wood: that combo almost instantly crashes havok1
[11:28] Squirrel Wood: due to the sculpties being handled as tori
[11:29] Andrew Linden: Yeah, two sculpties will not crash Havok4, but that has been the case since it opened.
[11:29] Kitto Flora: The inability to sit on a prim that is just across the border is annoying...
[11:29] Andrew Linden: There were other crash modes that were a little more complicated, but are fixed now.
[11:29] Andrew Linden: Hrm... I didn't know that sitting across a border failed
[11:30] Kitto Flora: Its not worked on MG in a long while
[11:30] Squirrel Wood: Ye. can't sit on an object that is in the neighboring sim
[11:30] Andrew Linden: Maybe I'll play with that today. I've been in that code very recently so it shouldn't take long to figure out why it fails.
[11:30] Kitto Flora: 'Try moving closer -- the thing is not in this region' type messages
[11:30] Andrew Linden: Oh... right. You'd have to actually move into the region first.
[11:31] Kitto Flora: Yes.
[11:31] Andrew Linden: and the "I need to sit" would have to be communicated to the recipient region
[11:31] Kitto Flora: Obvious for me, but many are unaware of what aregion border is
[11:32] Andrew Linden: well... sitting needs work, but is mostly beyond the scope of the Havok4 project
[11:32] Andrew Linden: I was just overhauling it because I couldn't understand what the old code was trying to do
[11:32] Andrew Linden: when I had to port it over to use Havok4
[11:32] Kitto Flora: ok
[11:33] Andrew Linden: And I always hated how the final sit position seemed so arbitrary
[11:33] Andrew Linden: I want to sit THERE, not HERE!
[11:33] Kitto Flora: It is jumpy at times
[11:33] Squirrel Wood: heh
[11:34] Squirrel Wood: on this ring here you can pick a position but in the end the script positions you
[11:34] Kitto Flora: Sit has other major issues in scripted - inability to deal with Av size.
[11:34] Andrew Linden: Ah yes.
[11:34] Squirrel Wood: ye... and different offsets as you can see here
[11:34] Kitto Flora: A nice project for someone one day :)
[11:34] Andrew Linden: I think solving that right is... complicated.
[11:35] Andrew Linden: Especially if you want to accomodate attachments.
[11:35] Kitto Flora: If the tail stick thru the chair, so be it (scrit the tail to move if Av is sitting) - but I'd like to get my butt ON the chair.
[11:35] Andrew Linden: We'll need to get ragdoll stuff working before we tackle ultimate avatar sitting
[11:36] Kitto Flora: Is Ragdoll another part of H4?
[11:36] Andrew Linden: The H4 libs have ragdoll, but it is a viewer-side effect
[11:37] Andrew Linden: and we don't have H4 on the client
[11:37] Andrew Linden: viewer == client
[11:38] Andrew Linden: at the moment the avatar is a single-prim shape on the server for collision purposes
[11:38] Squirrel Wood: attachments would be too complex
[11:38] Squirrel Wood: especially those composed out of literally hundreds of prims
[11:38] Andrew Linden: we'll need to break it up into multiple prims that can move relative to each other before we can get ultimate sitting working
[11:39] Andrew Linden: attachments could eventually be handled
[11:39] Andrew Linden: but there is a bit of work to do there
[11:39] Squirrel Wood: ultimate sitting.. I'd be happy if the butt would stay glued to where it is supposed to sit at ^^
[11:39] Kitto Flora: If there was link heirarchy, would it make things easier?
[11:39] Andrew Linden: We'll probably need little UI checkboxes eventualy where residents could choose how much they want their attachments to collide
[11:39] Kitto Flora: Box around lik sets instead of individual prims?
[11:40] Squirrel Wood: A general bounding box.. yes
[11:40] Andrew Linden: making attachments collide when walking would snag a bunch of people with huge angel wings
[11:40] Squirrel Wood: lol
[11:40] Squirrel Wood: their fault for wearing such monstrosities ;)
[11:40] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I've got plenty of ideas on how to handle simpler shape collision approximations.
[11:41] Andrew Linden: So the Havok4 plan is this:
[11:42] Andrew Linden: (1) fix all the blockers that would prevent us from doing a Linden-only trial on SL proper (private estate/continent)
[11:42] Andrew Linden: That trial would be up for a week or so while we do some preliminary merging on the internal codebase to get ready to ship
[11:43] Squirrel Wood: The ponies of SL want a special carrot prim ^^
[11:43] Andrew Linden: (2) fix all the bugs that would prevent us from opening Havok4 for limited public trials
[11:43] Andrew Linden: stage (2) would last a week or several weeks
[11:43] Andrew Linden: (3) gradually expand the trials as we fix more bugs
[11:44] Andrew Linden: (4) eventually deploy Havok4 to the entire world
[11:44] Squirrel Wood: I'm wondering... would it be possible to add a prim property "water" which would render its surfaces using the water shader(s) ?
[11:44] Andrew Linden: We want to get to (2) before the end of the year
[11:44] Andrew Linden: Squirrel ,when you say "its surfaces" what surfaces exactly are you talking about?
[11:45] Squirrel Wood: You are pretty close to (2), aren't ya?
[11:45] Squirrel Wood: the prims faces.
[11:45] Andrew Linden: Squirrel, we are working on (1) at the moment
[11:45] Squirrel Wood: like on this cube, all sides
[11:46] Andrew Linden: Squirrel, there is a project that some people have been kicking around... all about getting fancier material shading on objects in genera.
[11:46] Andrew Linden: general
[11:46] Squirrel Wood: cool ^^
[11:46] Andrew Linden: So it would be a per-object setting rather than a per-parcel
[11:46] Andrew Linden: object creators are probably the ones who care the most about how their stuff looks
[11:46] Kitto Flora: Any news on the llSetPos() on physicals?
[11:47] Andrew Linden: however, enabling the shaders in the client would be an option on a per-resident basis
[11:48] Andrew Linden: What is the llSetPos() bug? Kelly fixed a bug to do with llSetPos() a week or two ago, so probably fixed
[11:48] Kitto Flora: In a physical linked set, llSetPos() to move a daughter prim, relative to the root, fails.
[11:49] Andrew Linden: I'll test it.
[11:49] Andrew Linden: There are a bunch of SVC bugs fixed in the public jira list
[11:50] Kitto Flora: I handed out a test article in Beta, a while back
[11:50] Andrew Linden: however I'm waiting to sort through them and close them until after we've actually updated the preview.
[11:50] Kitto Flora attempts excavation on Jira
[11:51] Andrew Linden: yeah, it has been a while since the Havok4 bug list has been triaged
[11:52] Squirrel Wood: time for it then? :)
[11:52] Andrew Linden: soon, hopefully by tomorrow
[11:52] Andrew Linden: Dan is in the middle of testing the candidate preview update
[11:52] Squirrel Wood: Woo :)
[11:52] Andrew Linden: hopefully he won't find an blockers
[11:52] Kitto Flora: OK, I see it says its fixed, in Jira :) 14th Nov, but 'internally' only
[11:53] Andrew Linden: Hrm... it has been a while since an update... 2 weeks at least.
[11:53] Andrew Linden: You can test it on Bisque and Chartreuse. Those have the latest "candidate" versions.
[11:53] Kitto Flora: Ah ok
[11:54] Squirrel Wood: fixed internally usually means that a fix exists, but there is no guarantee that it will be rolled out anytime soon.
[11:54] Kitto Flora: If its fixed that will allow more collision checking
[11:54] Andrew Linden: And while you're there, be sure to test the click-and-sit sitting behavior.
[11:54] Kitto Flora: Yes
[11:54] Andrew Linden: Let me know either way... if it looks good or bad. I need both input as evidence to support my case.
[11:55] Kitto Flora: OK
[11:55] Andrew Linden: I've got two "looks ok to me" responses so far.
[11:56] Squirrel Wood: so you have a 100% on looks ok ^^
[11:56] Andrew Linden: Yes I guess. One was more of a "I chose not to vote" response.
[11:57] Andrew Linden: Ok, this office hour is about to wrap up. I don't have anything else on the agenda.
[11:57] Dan Linden: Here's what I'm finding with sitting. Stand next to a 10x10x10m cube, right-click the top half of the cube's side face and choose sit here. This silently fails.
[11:58] Dan Linden: Stand next to a 10x10x10m cube, right-click near the bottom of the cube's side face and choose sit here. The "There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot." error that pops up should indicate that your avatar may be too far away from the suitable surface.
[11:58] Andrew Linden: Any last minute questions before we break it up?
[11:58] Dan Linden: We can take that offline I suppose :)
[11:58] Andrew Linden: Yes Dan, there is an 8 meter max limit between avatar center and sit point.
[11:58] Dan Linden: yep
[11:58] Squirrel Wood: Well, thanks for putting in all that hard work :)
[11:59] Andrew Linden: Dan, if you click on the bottom of the cube it will search for a suitable edge
[11:59] Andrew Linden: and will probably find one... at the top of the cube.
[11:59] Andrew Linden: if you're too far it will fail
[12:00] Andrew Linden: you could try floating your avatar up, then clicking the same spot
[12:00] Squirrel Wood: Mayhaps it should say then something along the lines of...
[12:00] Dan Linden: correct. There's 2 failure modes, one is silent, one has an error message.
[12:00] Squirrel Wood: Dude, look up! You can sit up there.
[12:00] Andrew Linden: if it succeeds then it is the distance problem -- which I think silently failes
[12:00] Andrew Linden: instead of the "Could not find a spot" error
[12:00] Dan Linden: the one that is silent should have a message, and the one that currenly has a message should have a more useful, directed message
[12:01] Kitto Flora: Oh
[12:01] Kitto Flora: There is an Item I'd like a guess on...
[12:01] Kitto Flora: Av trapping by prims
[12:01] Andrew Linden: Dan, don't open that against the Havok4 project please ;-)
[12:01] Andrew Linden: save it for the "overhaul sitting avatar" project
[12:01] Kitto Flora: Stand up from a steam train, and 10% of the time your foot is grabbed by the cab roof
[12:01] Squirrel Wood: You failed to find a suitable spot for sitting. Would you still like to sit in the chosen spot? (Pay 10L to sit anyway) ^^
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Av trapping with prims...
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Is that kind of thing likely to be removed by H4?
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Kitto, are you talking about Havok1 or Havok4-only?
[12:02] Kitto Flora: This is an H1 annoyance
[12:02] Andrew Linden: Kitto, that is, the snagged foot behavior.
[12:02] Kitto Flora: wondering if h4 gets rid of it
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Yes
[12:02] Kitto Flora: Snagged foot sounds right
[12:02] Andrew Linden: oh... I think standing up in Havok4 is probably worse
[12:03] Kitto Flora: MORE foot snagging in H4?
[12:03] Andrew Linden: at the moment you can get some serious anti-penetration motion kicking in when you stand up
[12:03] Gaius Goodliffe: I seem to often end up in weird places...
[12:03] Andrew Linden: and it can throw you all the way across the region in the worst case
[12:03] Kitto Flora: Well, at least you aint *stuck*
[12:04] Andrew Linden: So not snagging so much, but pushing yes.
[12:04] Gaius Goodliffe: I've gotten stuck a number of times, usually inside a gasbag on the airship. :p
[12:04] Andrew Linden: In Havok4 there are some new ways to trap the avatar
[12:04] Andrew Linden: but I've got some ideas on how to reduce many of those
[12:05] Kitto Flora: One needs a llSetStandupPos(<.....>);
[12:05] Dan Linden: Does anyone here have a megaprim that is smaller than 256m on all sides?
[12:05] Kitto Flora: Yes
[12:05] Squirrel Wood: llInstantMove(<0,0,3>); - instantly moves an avatar up 3m on standing up.
[12:05] Dan Linden: May I have a copy, Kitto?
[12:05] Squirrel Wood: yes
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Dan, you need to get that megaprim over to Havok4?
[12:06] Kitto Flora: Here or H4?
[12:06] Dan Linden: Here
[12:06] Dan Linden: awesome. Thanks!
[12:06] Gaius Goodliffe: llSitTarget (vector pos, rotation rot, vector unsitpos, rotation unsitrot)
[12:07] Andrew Linden: yeah, perhaps it should be additional params to llSitTarget
[12:07] Squirrel Wood: llSitTarget(vector pos, rotation rot, vector ejectforce) ;)
[12:07] Andrew Linden: actually, we need UI interace for setting the sit-target on objects
[12:07] Gaius Goodliffe: >.<
[12:07] Kitto Flora: That woulkd be a nice short-cut
[12:08] Andrew Linden: ok, I've got to get back to work. Thanks for comming.
[12:08] Kitto Flora: Even a graphical way....
[12:08] Squirrel Wood: thanks for having us ^^
[12:08] Kitto Flora: Sot on the object, edit the av location and 'Set This'
[12:08] Andrew Linden: And if you happen to log into the Havok4 preview, don't forget to test sitting in Chartreuse or Bisque
[12:08] Kitto Flora: Byebye all
[12:08] Andrew Linden: and let me know what you think.
[12:08] Gaius Goodliffe: Thanks! cya