User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 09 16

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, I've parcel 212 in Tigris
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	One of mine, minimal system is 100 prims I think
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	50 prims for engine + carriage
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	'Bout a quarter of my resources. One prim to ten meters?
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	4 90-curves is 8 prims
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	4o prims left over
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	"Train Tickets, L$500; Train Rides, 0 Tickets"
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	400M of track, or a square 100M on side
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	No one made a pay-for train yet
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Theres so many free trains, you need an awful lot of extras to get people to pay for it
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, you run your own region?
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	or is this just a parcel project?
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Not yet, just have a parcel at BL
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	ah ok
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, quick announcements...
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	I want to show a collectio of Playground Equipment.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	The code freeze for 1.25-Server, which I thought was last Friday
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	is actually this Friday
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew, kitto, arawn, fay
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	however, that freeze applies only to whatever code has been fully tested and merged back into the main trunk codebase
[11:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Time enough to unmisfix SVC-2931 for Burning Life?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	So, if all goes well... the schedule would be something like this...
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Hi
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Freeze on Friday 09.19
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Branch is made and some QA and test grid over the week of 09.22 - 09.26
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	deploy on Wed 10.01
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	That isn't the real schedule, just my guess at what it would be.
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	What fixes would be in there?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Right now the only fixes that I know about are a bunch of maintenance fixes from waaaaay back in July and August
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2511 era stuff
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	and the oscillating camera
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	there is a current server maintenance branch that has a few fixes in it, however it hasn't passed QA or been merged back
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	and I doubt that could be done before Friday
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Tell you what, when we actually freeze and branch I'll try to provide a preliminary list of interest
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	by then there should be a test grid up and open
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Have any news of client releases?
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	and some web page showing the changelist (do they still do that? where do they post it these days?)
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	No, I don't know what is up with client releases
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	the client is getting more and more decoupled from our server work
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	YEs
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Its also the bigger problem now, it seems
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Really? Hrm, they must have released some bugs recently then.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	er... deployed some buggy version
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Its so unstable
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Run time max - 1 hour
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Theres been no RC client update for .. 2 weeks?
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler was just using the 1.21.0 from the beta grid with good confidence.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	what version are you talking about? the RC
[11:15]	Kitto Flora looks
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I'm on 1.20.15
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	1-21-0-94415
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme check my email to see if there is any publicly available info on the viewer...
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	1.21.2 is current, with .3 out next week. Is it the Beta Viewer or the crashiy viewer
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Looks like no RC3 this week.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	They're working on some problems that they expect to take most of the week.
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	I could not find a 1.21.2 available for download
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Second Life 1.21.2 (96080) Sep 9 2008 09:42:01 (Second Life Release Candidate)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... the email claims that RC2 was released last week
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm not sure what verion that translates to
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Oh - its there now
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok, so I guess it would be 1.21.2
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	1.21.2.something
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Now the RC link points at that
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm on hte 1.21.RC2, so I think it's available at the download page. It's more stable than 1.21.0 was
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Few days back it pointed at same thing I have had for 2 weeks
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Other news... I'm finished with my gcc-4 and 64bit work. I only mention it since that is what I've been mostly working on over the last few weeks.
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	Macs had a problem with 1.21.1, so that was made an optional mandatory upgrade, and hard to find.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm about to start fixing some server bugs, then I've got another project coming up soon... some internal support tools for DMCA
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee, that's about all I've got.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Any news Simon?
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Not much ... have been working on bugs lately, probably the most interesting is about returning stuff if you manage to sneak it onto a parcel that doesn't allow it
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	... Which I won't go into the details on how you do that :)
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	alright, then the table is open
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	... should any of you regulars have some pressing questions ;-)
[11:23]	Creem Pye:	hm drop an attachment there? =)
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Heh - now cant install new RC while old standard release is running?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I think you'll have to log out Kitto. You'll crash out soon, right? ;-)
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't know if this is on topic: I got a support response, on an inventory question, that my Graphics Card isn't supported, so I'd have trouble. I did a Beta GRid Fix, but Inventory is a Pre-Windlight Feature, and Inventory shouldn't be lost that way.
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	No
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	I'm running the old standard release
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	It runs for long time ok
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe 3 or 4 hours
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler was just reading up on Structured Programming, and saw a comment on how to prevent Memory Leak Issues
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, could you elaborate on that? Are you saying that inventory somehow failed, and the blame is being put on the video card?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	What problem are you having with inventory?
[11:26]	Kitto Flora:	(I never run outta memory, I have 5 gigs real + swap)
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	Appearently, my video Chip-set should be as good as most cards of 2002, but the contents of inventory folders hadn't been appearing.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, are you on a 64bit system? Perhaps swap still works on 32bits when RAM is at 4G?
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	No, 32-bit
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	4 gig dram, though the bios oly sees 3.2G
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	11 gig of swap
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	1 gig
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Arwan, so the bug is that folder contents are not rendered?
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Weren't, I've now recovered the Sawdust and Frogs that my Mutant Vehicle requires
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	There's a fix, where we go into Beta Grid, bring up something in Inventory, then return to main, and bring it up again
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	I guess I'm wondering if the inventory items just weren't appearing, or if they were but the system was not properly drawing the inventory UI such that some items were not drawn.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Er... by "wern't appearing" I meant... "wern't being transmitted from the server"
[11:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	The subfolders were showing as empty, and many folders as well
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Is the inventory contents transmission by UDP?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok. So I've heard of that problem before
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	I can't remember if inventory contents still use the legacy UDP message system or not
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	Well it stinks of 'lost packets'
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	It sounds like a server problem, and wouldn't be related to your video chipset Arwan
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	did any of the folder contents ever appear, sometimes appear, or change?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	That is... does it appear that the content was really lost (never appears again)?
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	I fixed it client side, using a known remedy, so I'm looking into Beresford's Bleeding Edge
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Ah hrm...
[11:31]	Creem Pye:	how did you fix it?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, must have been a messaging or protocol problem.
[11:32]	Creem Pye:	move/delete your secondlife settings folder?
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	I used the 1.21.0 for the Beta Grid, to log on there, and poke about my inventory, then closed and logged it on Agni
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	And the inv stuff reappeared?
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Folders have contents again, and I've the textures I was panicking for
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	In contents transmission error
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	Inv
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't know how Graphics Card could have impacted, but strange things are normal
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah - a link with graphics card would be bizzare
[11:34]	Creem Pye:	oh, so I've seen a patch for flexi sculpts
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	But ... Inv population errors are not uncloom.
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	uncommon
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	I once saw an exhaust cloudh drain my transmission, so weirdness is sometimes helpful in diagnosis
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Seems to be either/or transmission errors that are not corrected until relog
[11:35]	Creem Pye:	they're kinda cool, but apparently the server overrides certain flexi flags when the prim is a sculpt (so Ig uess you're stuck with 1 set of flexi params)
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	or corrupt stuff in the cache (clear cache fixes)
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't Flexi supposed to have negative values for Wind and Drag?
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I think flexi+sculpy was disabled to prevent frame-rate crippling content
[11:36]	Creem Pye:	well it's not supported in the nromal viewer, but it would be nice if the server would retain the flexi parameters somehow...
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, are the flexi params lost (cleared or corrupted) when scultpy is set?
[11:37]	Creem Pye:	hmm maybe. I'd need to check to see the details
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	if so then I would guess that would be a real bug
[11:37]	Creem Pye:	I'm under the impression that if it's a sculpt and you set it flexi with certain parameters, some parameters are chagned by the server
[11:38]	Creem Pye:	I don't know of the normal viewer ignores the " flexi on" flag when the prim is a sculpt, or whaat...
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask Qarl Linden to see what he knows about conflicts between the flexy and sculpty features
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler didn't think Scupties had the straight axis needed for Flexi
[11:39]	Kitto Flora thinks about vid card <-> inv 'loss' connection - Its possible that if you have an older video card that puts a lot more load on the CPU, and a net-traffic system that looses packets if the CPU is overloaded, then there could be a connection. Heavy cpu load during initial startup/drawing scene messes up the inv contents transmission. Look see if you hit a lot of 100% CPU load?
[11:40]	Creem Pye:	hmm there was a youtube video of a flexi sculpt in action, but I can't find it now
[11:40]	Creem Pye:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8SPB8aIWrQ here we go
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	an extremely low FPS could also chunk the processing of the network packets
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	most packet lost is caused by various buffer overflow, either in the routers between, or the servers on either end
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Second Life's CPU Portion is normally in the 90s
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	that is, incomming packet buffers can only hold so much info
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	and if the packets are not handled and removed then the buffers fill up and start dropping packets
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	I hope I'm not filling with Windlight PAckets
[11:42]	Kitto Flora runs 28% CPU and 14 FPS here
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	That might be what smokes the graphics cards.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	although... I thought we had enough multi-threading on the SL client these days the network packets are handled in parallel with the graphics rendering
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Well, that depends on OS and CPU power
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	and DRAM speed
[11:43]	Creem Pye:	hmm sometimes when I have bad packet loss, the client stops drawing frames. it's really debilitating :-\
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	And network system
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Creem, what I meant was... perhaps it is the really slow frame rate that causes the packet loss, not the other way around
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, the system can send packets with more than the client can swallow? Communication Protocol doesn't prevent that?
[11:44]	Creem Pye:	ah right, your buffer could fill and overflow while the client is waiting to draw a frame
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	well, if the client suddenly "blocks" on a rendering issue and stops processing packets, the simulator might not get a clue that the client is overloaded before some packets have already been dropped at the client's end
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	If the net transmission is UDP - that not 'secure' - overflow and corrupt and partials are just thrown away
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Only TCP is secure
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Or UDP - if yo uadd on security
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	where "secure" means "reliable"
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Means - more effort at getting the packet there
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	right
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	UDP on its own = send and forget
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, my Ruthed Scripts could be Client Side?
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	TCP = send it until client says it got it. (I Think)
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	What isa ruthed script?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Ruthed inventory items, corrupt inventory cache, may be caused by packet loss
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ruthed Script, named for Ruth's Crisp Steak House, is where you try to open a script, in a object, but you get the full choices of what might be done with any item anywhere, and none work.
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Client doesn't know what it's looking at, so gives unlimited choices
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Open script and get a blank page?
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	It seems Sim Dependant, by Vinland might not tax my client the same
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	What's the motto of the Discordians again?
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open is just one of many options that don't do anything
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	That sound more like a Asset Server problem
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Always different, whatefver it is.
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might be, but this talk about Packet Loss sounds like a communication issue, somewhere
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, but you fixed it, right Arwan?
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Packet loss is
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	The inventory is fixed, but the loss of client machine is worrisome.
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Problem is that theres several possible problem areas, and they can cause similar-looking effects
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, what is your video chipset?
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	All one can do is try and try again and eventually take a guess at the cause
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Graphics Card: Intel 845G
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, the old "Extreme Graphics" chipset
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	which happens to be extremely inferior to anything nVidia and ATI have been shipping for years
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	You can watch stats panel, 'Packet Loss' - if thats no-zero that is likely cause of loss of stuff - but its temporary loss
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	It must ahve been so good, in 2004, that Graphics Cards weren't needed at all
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Intel has recieved a lot of grief from game developers (and us) over that wonderful marketing wrapper they put on those chips
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Extream Garphics set does load up the CPU - I have it on a laptop
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	how have recent ATi cards been working out for people? Do they have functional OpenGL drivers these days?
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	(I've heard some bad reports regarding ATi+SL)
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't heard much about ATI's new open source OpenGL drivers lately
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Arawn, what netwrk card do you have?
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, is it a laptop or desktop? If desktop, does it have an AGP slot?
[11:55]	Creem Pye:	hm they released some specs, but I think you're stil relying on their closed-source Catalyst drivers if you want reasonable performance :-|
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't see anything in About SL, on NetWork Cards, but it's a desktop with Interactive Cable
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	How does the network cable connect to the PC? Is it a 10-base-T RK type cable?
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	RJ45-type
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, there is a chance that your motherboard has an AGP slot (brown plastic, the white ones are PCI)
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	you'd have to open it and see
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	if it does have an AGP slot then you may be able to find a card for it that is better than your 845
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's an AGP? Advanced Graphics Processor? Maybe, it's a 2004 Dell
[11:58]	Creem Pye:	it's a video slot interface
[11:58]	Kitto Flora thinks.. time for a upgrade.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	AGP = Advanced Graphics Protocol
[11:58]	Creem Pye:	like PCI or ISA ;)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	there are also some PCI video cards to be found, but they probably won't perform much better than your onboard 845
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler's very surprised that SL ran at all.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	kitto may be right... these days any new computer you buy is likely to have better video capabilities
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Any two year old would be a whole different world
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	supposedly the newest Intel chipsets are actually starting to have usable performance
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the Intel graphics chipsets
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I forget the numbers
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	This latest PC I got - I didnt bother with on-board graphics at all
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Arwan, good AGP cards are getting hard to find these days
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	PCI-E now
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	and the cheaper PCI-E (PCI-Express) cards are faster than most any AGP card you can buy anymore
[12:01]	Creem Pye:	yes, there's a premium for getting AGP instead of PCI-e. Even back when I bought a new nvidia card 3 years ago, I had to pay extra to get the older interface
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	yup, exactly Creem
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	AGP is about dead, Jim
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Like IDE
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler can't download money from Lindex, but wonders if anything might be availablefor his Amazon Gift Certificate.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I tend to live on legacy hardware at home, so I've still got some AGP stuff running.
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	But I can't replace a good AGP card, should it fail.
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Me too - when I turn it on :)
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	you might have better luck shopping for AGP cards in the 2nd hand market
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	good point Creem. There are some good 2nd hand computer swap meets around the SF Bay area
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Back to the "Extreme Graphics" marketing ploy...
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	you can imagine the critizism Intel has recieved after taking a mediocre to poor graphics chipset and giving it such a shiny name.
[12:05]	Andrew Linden:	People who don't know any better purchased a new computer with "Extreme Graphics" as a feature bullet point
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	and then they discover they can't actually use any of the extreme games out there
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Tey only omitted 'POS' in the middle :)
[12:06]	Creem Pye:	lol
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's POS?
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Piece Of Shi*
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	Meanwhile, these consumers then contact the game developers/publishers and complain that their game won't work on their "Extreme Graphics" computer.
[12:07]	Arawn Spitteler'd have used Vapor, as more commonly used
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	False advertising, basically.
[12:08]	Kitto Flora:	Well it was Extreme for Intel - in its day
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, well I guess we wasted a perfectly good hour grumbling about video chipsets ;-)
[12:08]	Kitto Flora:	5 years or more back?
[12:08]	Creem Pye:	it's especially bad considering that their "extreme" cpus really do perform well
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Right, the Intel brand carries a high reputation
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hurts the credibility of advertising; Some false advertising actually works better
[12:09]	Kitto Flora never believes glossies
[12:09]	Kitto Flora:	The more the glossy, the worse it probably is
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	lol, I'll keep that advice in mind
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	The last great Bayonet Charge, of the American Army, was done to attack some false advertising of the Chinese in Korea
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever try giving people the Holy Grail, without charging for it, or telling a wild tail?
[12:10]	Kitto Flora:	Read the DaVinci Code to find out :)
[12:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	If there's a grain of truth in there, it's well cyphered.
[12:11]	Creem Pye:	hm andrew and simon, does the viewer actually render 100% alpha objects?
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I've got to head out. Thanks for showing up everyone.
[12:11]	Creem Pye:	thanks for your time
[12:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would be more fun to read Dan Brown; I could do that.
[12:11]	Simon Linden:	I have to run too .. bye !
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye everyboy
[12:12]	Kitto Flora:	Lunchy time!
[12:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a problem with Highlight Invisible?
[12:12]	Rex Cronon:	have fun