User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 09

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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:08] Andrew Linden: Hello
[17:08] Andrew Linden: Ok announcements...
[17:09] Andrew Linden: My 64bit branch holds the merge-back lock at the moment. That means it is the next project that will get into the 'release' branch and nothing is supposed to check into that branch in the meantime.
[17:09] Andrew Linden: I mention it only because that is one of the things I've been focusing my attentions on today.
[17:09] Sindy Tsure: 1.26?
[17:10] Andrew Linden: We won't be seeing the benefits of 64bits (expected slight performance boosts) for a while yet. I'll let you know when it is being deployed.
[17:10] Andrew Linden: We don't know the performance gains (if any) yet, but once this code is in the main branch others (such ast the simulator performance team) will be able to run some benchmarks more easily.
[17:11] Andrew Linden: 1.25-Server has not branched yet. Dunno if the tentative schedule (last next week I thin was the last I heard) has slipped or not.
[17:12] Andrew Linden: It is waiting for some stuff to get through the mergeback lock process (such as the 64 bit stuff).
[17:12] Andrew Linden: I think the simulator performance stuff that Simon and Don Linden were working on got in right before my stuff got the lock.
[17:13] Sindy Tsure wouldn't mind hearing more about that!
[17:13] Andrew Linden: Lets see... I'm also starting to think a lot about tools to help us handle DMCA takedown requests. So if anyone has strong opinions about that I'd be willing to listen.
[17:13] Arawn Spitteler: Is simulator performance monitoring being Beta'ed on Aditi?
[17:14] Sindy Tsure: it's on the mainland!
[17:14] Andrew Linden: No Arawn. The beta of that stuff will not be on ADITI untul 1.25-Server branches... a few days or a week after it branches.
[17:14] Andrew Linden: We'll first do some internal QA on it, then open it up for public beta.
[17:14] Arawn Spitteler: That's a tool to chase down IPL Violations?
[17:14] Sindy Tsure: er.. some of it is, i think.. linden village sims have bits of it
[17:14] Simon Linden: It's not fully on the mainland yet ... we had some test regions, but they are back to the normal simulators after this recent security update
[17:14] Arawn Spitteler: I sometimes wonder, if the performance metrics impair performance
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Yes Arawn, DMCA refers to copyright violation claims.
[17:15] Arawn Spitteler: Welcome Back, Ella
[17:15] Simon Linden: It shouldn't - we really tried to make it un-intrusive
[17:15] Sindy Tsure has no strong feelings on the dmca stuff but many others do.. if you asked in the forums, you'd get an opinion or 2.. or 197
[17:15] Andrew Linden: Simon could probably answer some fears about the sim performance stuff.
[17:15] Arawn Spitteler: Zero Hour is the place to ask for tyrades on IPL
[17:16] Simon Linden: The metrics code hasn't shown up in our code profiling as a time-sink
[17:16] Andrew Linden: I think one of the main things added was the ability to toggle it on/off real-time.
[17:16] Andrew Linden: IPL? Could you expand that Arawn?
[17:16] Simon Linden: Yes - when we toggle it on, we get much more detail in the reports. Currently the stuff you see in the viewer in the ctrl-shift-1 panel is always on
[17:16] Sindy Tsure: intellectual property L?
[17:17] Andrew Linden: Perhaps I misinterpreted your first question about IPL.
[17:17] Arawn Spitteler: Intellectual Property Law
[17:17] Andrew Linden: Oh... yeah sorta. DMCA refers to copyright, definitely.
[17:17] Andrew Linden: "Intellectual Property" is a more vaugue term.
[17:17] Arawn Spitteler: It's the rot of all history, and Language by extension
[17:18] Andrew Linden: One other thing to mention, I guess.
[17:18] Arawn Spitteler: Root of all History.
[17:19] Andrew Linden: Simon and I were talking earlier about trying to get some of the easy "low hanging fruit" LSL feature ideas that we've talked about, and other LL devs may have other similar easy things, and getting those into a single week-long project one of these days...
[17:19] Andrew Linden: hopefully sometime this quarter.
[17:19] Sindy Tsure claps!!
[17:19] Andrew Linden: I'm going to mention the idea to Babbage Linden and see what he thinks.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: So perhaps when that get's closer I'll ask some of you to suggest (remind me) some of the easier LSL enhancements that could be done.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: It's an idea... dunno if it will fly yet.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: That's about all I had on my mind today.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: The discussion is open.
[17:21] Arawn Spitteler: Isn't there a Jira for an LSL Wish List?
[17:21] Sindy Tsure: there is a meta issue..
[17:21] Arawn Spitteler: It might be good to Treache at CG's
[17:21] Andrew Linden: Well, I'm specifically looking for the *easy* items on such a wish-list.
[17:22] Andrew Linden: I figure if I could get a bunch of easy ideas, and as many LL devs to work on them over a few days, we could deliver some useful but helpful features.
[17:22] Andrew Linden: In a short period of time.
[17:22] Sindy Tsure: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-301 : "Meta-issue: New LSL Functions"
[17:23] Sindy Tsure: any time somebody jira's a request for something new, somebody links it to that one
[17:23] Andrew Linden: Ah,thanks for that link. It will go into my office hour transcripts for posterity.
[17:23] Sindy Tsure: may be others, too
[17:23] Sindy Tsure: er.. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22, while i'm here :)
[17:23] Sindy Tsure: sans the trailing ','
[17:24] Arawn Spitteler: er.. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
[17:24] Andrew Linden: ah yes, -22, one of my favorites. That is a border-crossing-permissions problem, if I recall correctly.
[17:24] Sindy Tsure: yepyep
[17:24] Sindy Tsure: i had a question about http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2266 : "llGetTextureResolution please!"
[17:25] Sindy Tsure: do picture/texture assets have the original resolution?
[17:25] Andrew Linden: Hrm... SVC-2266 relates to a topic that came up in a hallway meeting recently...
[17:25] Sindy Tsure: like, if i upload a 1000x500 texture and it gets converted to 1024x512, are the 1000 and 500 numbers gone forever?
[17:25] Andrew Linden: turns out we don't use the texture comment field for anything right now, or so I hear
[17:26] Arawn Spitteler: 1000X1000?
[17:26] Andrew Linden: it wouldn't be too hard to store uploader's id as 'creator', a timestamp, and maybe texture resolution data into that field.
[17:27] Sindy Tsure: can lsl get at that?
[17:27] Sindy Tsure: *those?
[17:27] Andrew Linden: I *think* that the texture gets resized to the powers of two, and the original uploaded size is lost.
[17:28] Andrew Linden: However, I don't know for sure how the extra space on the textures are filled...
[17:28] Sindy Tsure thinks it's scaled
[17:28] Arawn Spitteler: I shouldn't think the original dimensions would mean much
[17:28] Andrew Linden: oh, scaled so the pixels are interpolated out
[17:28] Sindy Tsure: it relates to that jira, arawn.. if you know the original resolution, you can figure out the oritinal aspect ratio
[17:29] Sindy Tsure: and display it correctly
[17:29] Sindy Tsure: strife made that comment in the jira, i think
[17:29] Sindy Tsure: "All textures are resized to powers of two on upload. The function you really want is llGetOriginalTextureSize. It would have to be metadata included with the texture at time of upload. Alternatively, llGetOriginalTextureAspectRatio would make sense too.
[ Show ] Strife Onizuka - 09/Jun/08 11:25 AM All textures are resized to powers of two on upload. The function you really want is llGetOriginalTextureSize. It would have to be metadata included with the texture at time of upload. Alternatively, llGetOriginalTextureAspectRatio would make sense too. "
[17:29] Sindy Tsure: ack!
[17:29] Arawn Spitteler: Power to edit our images in Profile would also be good, as they get a bit stretched
[17:30] Andrew Linden: sounds like maybe access to the original aspect ratio would help for the example given: a picture frame that detects correct aspect ratio
[17:30] Sindy Tsure nods!
[17:30] Sindy Tsure: trouble is what to do then with all the textures that already exist, if the original values are gone
[17:30] Sindy Tsure: default to the new power-of-2 values, i guess
[17:31] Andrew Linden: right Sindy, the feature wouldn't be uniform across all texture assets available
[17:32] Sindy Tsure gives arawn a turn before she moves to her next topic
[17:32] Andrew Linden: My guess is that the SVC-2266 idea wouldn't be too hard to do
[17:32] Andrew Linden: however it woudln't ever get priority on somone's todo list
[17:32] Arawn Spitteler makes the obligatory request for SVC-2931 progress
[17:32] Sindy Tsure: because of the vote count?
[17:32] Andrew Linden: unless we did something like I was suggesting... a quick project where we get some of the easier LSL enhancements done all at once.
[17:33] Sindy Tsure nods
[17:33] Andrew Linden: Not necessarily because of the vote count... I just think most LL dev's would have much much more important projects to work on.
[17:34] Sindy Tsure: 'needed' outweighs 'nice'
[17:34] Andrew Linden: Also, there is the phenomenon of whenever we add new features (even little easy ones that can be done on the side) we get flak from the vociferous hoards about how we should only be fixing bugs ;-)
[17:34] Sindy Tsure: y'all get flak about everything
[17:35] Andrew Linden: yes, I know that. And I have a really thick skin about it after all these years.
[17:35] Sindy Tsure: raise prices, get flak. drop prices, get flak
[17:35] Andrew Linden: However I know it affects many at LL more than it should.
[17:35] Sindy Tsure: :(
[17:35] Sindy Tsure: the forums can be pretty brutal..
[17:36] Andrew Linden: Actually, I don't know of many who reads the forums these days. I haven't read them in a looong time.
[17:36] Andrew Linden: Not since someone pointed out some megaprim thread to me.
[17:36] Sindy Tsure: i get to ignore people and tell them to piss off, though.. not sure ll wanted to do that when they were more active there
[17:36] Simon Linden: yeah, I gave up pretty quickly
[17:36] Arawn Spitteler'll have to visit the forums more often: Isn't possible to make the little stuff into class-room excersizes, somewhere?
[17:36] Sindy Tsure: hi hi, mari
[17:36] Marianne McCann: Hiya
[17:36] Simon Linden: Hi
[17:37] Sindy Tsure: i think there should be an Andrew's Answers forum
[17:37] Sindy Tsure sends an IM to M suggesting this
[17:38] Arawn Spitteler: We could mention it each transcript, for a link persuant
[17:38] Sindy Tsure: make marianne & i moderators.. we'll keep the bozos out of your forum, andrew!
[17:38] Marianne McCann shrieks!
[17:38] Arawn Spitteler would sell tickets.
[17:38] Andrew Linden: Hehe. I wonder how much time that would take.
[17:38] Marianne McCann: Sorry, natural reaction to moderating the forums
[17:38] Marianne McCann winks
[17:39] Sindy Tsure: speaking of the forums..
[17:39] Sindy Tsure saw a thread the other day.. person on the mainland says it's been _years_ since they were able to get things like parcel descriptions to stick
[17:39] Sindy Tsure: they keep changing back to the previous values
[17:39] Andrew Linden: One problem with that is... I get a lot of questions to which I don't know the answers.
[17:40] Arawn Spitteler: A good excuse to visit with other lindens
[17:40] Sindy Tsure wasn't entirely serious.. i'd like to see LL in there more but there are too many residents who use it as a soap box
[17:40] Arawn Spitteler: Have you taken a road trip, with Jack , yet? Lag Orbiting is not to be missed
[17:40] Andrew Linden: If that parcel description bug were truly pandemic on the mainland I'd expect a huge flood of bug report.
[17:41] Marianne McCann: Lag orbiting?
[17:41] Sindy Tsure: is all that info in the simstate?
[17:41] Sindy Tsure: parcel boundaries and ban lists and all that?
[17:41] Andrew Linden: I wonder if the parcel description bug is related to a few regions, or specific parcels.
[17:41] Marianne McCann: I've not seen an issue with editing land description. Some with editing things like one's profile piccie, but not land settings
[17:41] Arawn Spitteler: Last time I was on hte roads of Mainland, I could usually count on getting kicked into a corner, with or without my vehicle.
[17:42] Andrew Linden: Profile stuff goes into the db.
[17:42] Marianne McCann: An I always assumed it was due to a delay with the server in those cases
[17:42] Andrew Linden: Parcel descriptions go into the simstate info, which gets backed up very hour.
[17:42] Sindy Tsure: "I have owned land in Ambat for a long time now. And a few months after i got it, some years ago, I found I could no longer permanently change my land description, my land title, and now i believe it also effects the land pic.
So to clarify, I can change the data in the input box on my land description, title, and i can change the pic. BUT it does not stay after the sim resets. It's not permanent so i have to redo this just about every time i log in."
[17:42] Sindy Tsure: so.. it resets after the sim restarts, i guess
[17:43] Andrew Linden: Right Sindy, so the cause for that would be... somehow the simstate is not saving.
[17:43] Andrew Linden: In which case there would also be content loss in that region.
[17:43] Sindy Tsure assumes that all the rezzed stuff is also in there..
[17:43] Sindy Tsure: yes.. right!
[17:43] Sindy Tsure: can't believe he'd miss mentioning that
[17:43] Arawn Spitteler: Ask anyway
[17:44] Simon Linden: We've had a dev working on simstate save failures recently
[17:44] Andrew Linden: In short, I don't really believe it without seeing it for myself. But stuff like that deserves to be spot-checked.
[17:44] Sindy Tsure: think he said michael is working the support ticket
[17:44] Sindy Tsure: matthew
[17:44] Andrew Linden: In order to verify that we'd need a bug report, with region name, and parcel info before and after the change.
[17:44] Andrew Linden: And it would have to be investigated within 7 days of report.
[17:45] Andrew Linden: Er... maybe it is just two days.
[17:45] Sindy Tsure was really just wondering if all the parcel stuff goes into the sim state.. then i lost focus
[17:45] Sindy Tsure: so.. next!
[17:46] Sindy Tsure: i did have something else but forgot it..
[17:46] Arawn Spitteler just found where the LSL Primer was hiding.
[17:46] Sindy Tsure: behind the fridge?
[17:46] Andrew Linden: One thing I'm occasionally curious about... what are all of your primary activities in SL? Scripter? Builder? Vendor? Land owner?
[17:47] Arawn Spitteler: Color flash on our text is too strongly contrasted.
[17:47] Andrew Linden: I know that Arawn sometimes teaches classes in SL.
[17:47] Sindy Tsure: all the above for me, though i don't actually sell anything yet :)
[17:47] Marianne McCann: In rough order: builder (with a lot in texturing), role player/socializer, vendor, and land owner
[17:48] Arawn Spitteler: I do a little scripting, and teaching, but mostly hang about, wondering how to make my fortune in a global electronic doll-house.
[17:48] Marianne McCann: I include scripting in with the building, because it's more a part of my content creation, than a thing of its own
[17:48] Andrew Linden: Sindy, you're also active on the public jira lists, right?
[17:48] Sindy Tsure: yep
[17:48] Andrew Linden: As is Arawn.
[17:48] Ellla McMahon: I am Andrew
[17:48] Sindy Tsure: though not a power-user of it..
[17:48] Arawn Spitteler just tries to squawk to some benefit
[17:49] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I think I've seen your comments there too Ella.
[17:49] Marianne McCann: I'm pretty quiet on the PJIRA, but I get in there from time to time. More of a lurker lately
[17:50] Arawn Spitteler: We've been working on Burning Life, so our normal lives may soon resume
[17:50] Marianne McCann nods
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Ok, just curious. I'm often wondering as to the motivations of the Residents who attend office hours.
[17:50] Sindy Tsure grumbles about BL being open only for 1 week
[17:50] Sindy Tsure: oh.. that's easy andrew
[17:50] Sindy Tsure: you guys know how it all works and i don't
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Oh really? I met some of this year's Burning Life organizers in person this year.
[17:50] Sindy Tsure: and you answer questions
[17:50] Ellla McMahon: mine is to learn
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Dusty and Michael.
[17:50] Andrew Linden: Dunno their SL names.
[17:50] Marianne McCann: Really?I met Michael IRL last week too
[17:51] Marianne McCann: Oh, different Michael
[17:51] Sindy Tsure: 'scuse.. phone
[17:51] Arawn Spitteler: Was Michael involved?
[17:51] Andrew Linden: Not Michael Linden, but Michael Michael, of Burning Man fame
[17:51] Marianne McCann: Right.
[17:51] Ellla McMahon: with yours Andrew I think we see how things develop .. you take a seed of an idea .. let it grow .. eventually we will see it in the Viewer
[17:52] Arawn Spitteler: Was that Virtual Burner? I thought that was Phillip
[17:52] Ellla McMahon: other OH have different perspectives
[17:52] Marianne McCann: "My" Michael meeting was Michael Linden, not the BL Michael
[17:52] Andrew Linden: Could be. I don't think Philip was active in the Burning Life organization this year.
[17:52] Marianne McCann: He did show for the burning of the man, though (Philip)
[17:53] Sindy Tsure missed that.. again
[17:53] Andrew Linden: Oh right.
[17:53] Marianne McCann: As to comign to office hours: I often come because of some issue I might be happening, or to hear stuff going on, or because I find the hours personally intresting
[17:53] Marianne McCann is still havin troubles with the avatar bounding, like always
[17:54] Andrew Linden: "Avatar bounding" ? You mean avatar collision shape?
[17:54] Arawn Spitteler's just a glutton for Education, and used to watch educational tv, as a kid, before they produced it for kids.
[17:54] Marianne McCann: Ya
[17:54] Marianne McCann: Sorry, avatar collision shape. Been a long day
[17:54] Marianne McCann grins
[17:54] Andrew Linden: by troubles you mean... penetrating other objects? or the 'feet stick into the ground' problem?
[17:54] Arawn Spitteler: Is primatar centered on the Agent Target?
[17:55] Andrew Linden: Yes I think so Arawn.
[17:55] Andrew Linden: The "Agent Target" is the name of the ideal correct location of the avatar's render center on the client... I thinhk.
[17:55] Marianne McCann: Feet stick into group. the trouble I was trying to show previously with avatars "swimming" when using some huggers. Also seein some troubles with my slides an the old water slides with avatars stopping against prims when being pushed otherwise (hard to describe)
[17:55] Marianne McCann: ground*
[17:56] Andrew Linden: and that slaves to the server's true location of the avatar's collision body's centger.
[17:56] Andrew Linden: Ah yes... swimming hugging avatars.
[17:56] Marianne McCann: The foot in ground thing is fairly minor to me. I just can assume its tall grass, sand, snow /me winks
[17:56] Arawn Spitteler's seen a little himping
[17:56] Andrew Linden: I can't remember if there are any outstanding bugs fixed around that in the 1.25-Server stuff
[17:57] Arawn Spitteler: humping, not himping
[17:57] Marianne McCann: Ya, I see the shuddering behavior too, Awarn (last thing Im gonna talk about is humping avatars - like train cars humping, not people!)
[17:57] Sindy Tsure: i have an old abranimations hugger that does that.. they came out with a new version that fixes it.. welcome to the old one, if you don't have one that repros the problem
[17:57] Marianne McCann: Arawn, I mean, sorry
[17:58] Marianne McCann: There's a child hugger that is still in bad shape with that.
[17:58] Marianne McCann: I imagine others
[17:58] Andrew Linden: sigh... one of my favorite bugs.
[17:59] Andrew Linden: er... perhaps favorite is the wrong word
[17:59] Sindy Tsure: could always invite abramelin to an office hour and ask how he fixed it..
[17:59] Andrew Linden: one of my nemesis bugs
[17:59] Marianne McCann: Ya, I'm sure it's a "big fave"
[17:59] Arawn Spitteler: Oh, that's a fixs needed; Agent Target is a long way from llDetectedPos(). It used to be, you could set a Teleport with a touch
[17:59] Sindy Tsure makes andrew a "but it's better than llTargetOmega bugs" plaque
[17:59] Sindy Tsure: :)
[18:00] Marianne McCann tries to not use the "TO" words
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: I got stuck in the Fast Hobo Train, yesterday
[18:01] Andrew Linden: Arawn, one of the problems with the detected pos discrepancies is the slow script handling of collision events
[18:01] Sindy Tsure is too much of a smart alec.. i should avoid them but can't resist.. :\
[18:01] Andrew Linden: which was fixed (as per SVC-2511)
[18:01] Andrew Linden: however, I'm not positive that the problem you're talking about is fixed
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: That shouldn't have been a problem, in setting a teleport
[18:01] Andrew Linden: Someday we'll have 1.25-Server and we'll be able to test.
[18:02] Sindy Tsure: any sense of how settled-down mono is getting?
[18:02] Andrew Linden: oh... are you talking about SVC-2931 ? (I think that is the number)
[18:02] Marianne McCann: Arawn - yes, the Hobo train can be a bear. I find the subway car from the same set is looser on the tracks and works a bit more effectively, if a little "wiggly"
[18:03] Marianne McCann: Handles grades a lot better
[18:03] Andrew Linden: No, I haven't been paying attention to the state of MONO. I think the updates to 1.24 for MONO have largely stopped.
[18:03] Arawn Spitteler: I stood in the cab, and was stuck. I was testing some rails I'd made
[18:03] Andrew Linden: 1.24 was merged back into the main codebase
[18:03] Andrew Linden: so 1.25 is just waiting for a few things to clear the lock and merge back in
[18:03] Sindy Tsure: great!
[18:04] Andrew Linden: looks like we're about out of time
[18:04] Marianne McCann: Aww...
[18:04] Marianne McCann: Have fun, Andrew!
[18:04] Sindy Tsure: d'oh
[18:04] Arawn Spitteler: What would be the difficulty, of an llIfPersuedObjectMoves function?
[18:05] Sindy Tsure: ty andrew & simon!
[18:05] Marianne McCann: THat means it's time to get back to work
[18:05] Marianne McCann pouts
[18:05] Andrew Linden: Arawn, you mean a callback that watches another object?
[18:05] Ellla McMahon: thank you Andrew & Simon :))
[18:05] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, it would save events for followers
[18:05] Andrew Linden: Hrm... a dedicated detector, but which is triggered without polling
[18:06] Sindy Tsure runs.. cyas!!
[18:06] Ellla McMahon: bye eveyone .. have fun !
[18:06] Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!
[18:06] Andrew Linden: Arawn, not too hard for the first pass... but wouldn't work across region boundaries without a lot of work.
[18:06] Simon Linden: Thanks for coming everyone
[18:06] Marianne McCann: Have fun, everybuggy!
[18:06] Arawn Spitteler: If you have a key, you can follow across boundaries
[18:07] Andrew Linden: right, but that is using an active detector, right?
[18:07] Andrew Linden: or scanner?
[18:07] Arawn Spitteler: llGetObjectDetails
[18:07] Andrew Linden: ah hrm...
[18:07] Arawn Spitteler: Sensor oly works on avatars, across boundaries
[18:08] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure exactly how that works. I'll think about it. Ask me again sometime, maybe I'll get a chance to look into the code and provide a better opinion.