User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 14

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Kitto.
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	Busy meeting :)
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, it might be a small one today.
[11:02]	Richardus Raymaker shouts: hi kitto
[11:02]	Kitto Flora:	I have found anouther Open Space sim that runs slowly
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	What is the name?
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Did anyone look at this problem of sims that run poorly?
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Sim manager is coming
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	If you are in Content sim
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, there was a team sorta working on it. They instrumented the simulator to give better info about where time is getting spent.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno what exactly they did, however their changes are in the 1.25-Server project
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Also, a few optimizations got in early.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	I think the plan is to let the simulators run for a while and gather some info on the troublesome ones.
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Ricardus
[11:05]	Richardus Raymaker:	hi kitto
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Richardus is the sim manager
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Rapscallion Sim ?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, which region? Rapscallion?
[11:05]	Richardus Raymaker:	hello andrew
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Richardus.
[11:05]	Richardus Raymaker:	rapscallion yes.
[11:05]	Richardus Raymaker:	today after restart it did not coma back to
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	The sim has been cleaned of all time-using scripts
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	it has no physicals
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	No vehicles running
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Yet it runs LSL quite poorly
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Only 20% of top speed
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	It always runs so slow? Or it started recently?
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Got bad in the last ferw weeks?
[11:07]	Richardus Raymaker:	it worked fine for a long time . since 2 weeks it looks to run less good
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Does that line up with a server code change?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	It might... the Mono stuff went out... what? a month ago now? more?
[11:08]	Richardus Raymaker:	weeks go fast..
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	I think a month +
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	There have been lots of updates since then
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	YEs
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	'security' stuff
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	The performance issue... it is just "slow scripts"? or also simulator FPS and other things... slow updates of objects on arrival?
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Its showing up as 'slow scripts'
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Low man on totem pole is suffering
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	I see TD of 0.98 sometimes
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	But never much worse than that
[11:10]	Richardus Raymaker:	simluator fps seems ok. avatars can drop the lsltimer with 15%
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I was just using some internal tools to look at the stats history for the last two days or so.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	The FPS was green
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	YEs - if Scripted Avatars enter the region the LSL speed drops more (of course)
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Its like something else on the CPU is hogging time
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	lemme check...
[11:11]	Richardus Raymaker:	what i have seen is that its not everyday the same.
[11:12]	Richardus Raymaker:	hello arawn
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	hellow everybody
[11:12]	Richardus Raymaker:	hello rex
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Hello, hello
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	That hat almost matches your iron
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	i know:)
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	lol. the magical iron hat:)
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	I don't see any obvious problems from the back end yet, for the Rapscalliion region.
[11:14]	Richardus Raymaker:	the same we did. that makes it weird
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	For instance, there isn't a particular region on that host that is dominating the memory or CPU
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Whats' back end'? CPU processes?
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, Richardus here owns an Openspace region called "Rapscallion" that has been suffering from low script performance
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	over the last two weeks or so
[11:15]	Richardus Raymaker:	btw it moved today from cpu. yesterday it where on 2323 now its on other
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Did that change anything?
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	No
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Ive seen restart there
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, what is the status of the simulator performance work? It is all in 1.25-Server right?
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Diff cpu, no change to performance
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	No significant
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	Did you look in the top scripts and does anything show up there?
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Nothing bad
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	The sim has been stripped oof many scripts
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Worst was 0.078
[11:16]	Richardus Raymaker:	its all below 0.1 the last time i looked in idle mode
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Andrew, yes the latest performance stuff is in 1.25
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	This is whats weird - any possibly laggy script removed - no physicals, no rezzers and the LSL speed is still poor
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	How are you measuring it? Or does it just feel really slow?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Looks like Rapscallion has about 3.5k objects and 600 scripts
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	it is sharing processor time with other sims:(
[11:18]	Richardus Raymaker:	thats almost right
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	script inside is 'open'
[11:18]	Kitto Flora gave you LSLtimer.
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	Measure speed of llTarget() event
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	but recall, this is an Openspace region, which means it gets les cpu cycles... and is therefore cheaper.
[11:19]	Richardus Raymaker:	it feels when you fly/walk ok.
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Sure
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	What is the prim limit on an openspace region? 15k/4 right?
[11:19]	Richardus Raymaker:	but kitto have found a problem.
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	But instead of 1/4 capability is more like 1/10th
[11:19]	Richardus Raymaker:	3750
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	so 3.75k
[11:19]	Monkey Beery:	Hey
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Its got what - 700 scripts in it
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	And no big load scripts
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Well, relatively Rapscallion is about full... but the claim is that the performance changed suddenly two weeks ago
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	thats like 2100 in a regular region
[11:20]	Monkey Beery:	is this a lag checker?
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	LSL shuld run fine
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	It shouldn't be loaded much now ... it's running at 44 fps and there's nothing else on that hardware that's loaded down
[11:20]	Monkey Beery:	oops, sorry
[11:20]	Richardus Raymaker:	ugh. its bad here to\
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	But the open space sims get 1/4 the time of regular regions to run scripts
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	This pyramid measures how fast LSL is running
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	healthy sim fps does not necessarily mean scripts are running fast.
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	andrew, can I have your Linden bear?
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	ok cool
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	true
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	Simon, your's too?
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	if you have one
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	obviously
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	thank you andrew
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	Sure ... I'll give you a notecard, I make people do a treasure hunt to get one :)
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	20 percent is ok?
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	tHIS SIM ISNT DOING WELL EITHER
[11:21]	Monkey Beery:	but below is slow?
[11:22]	Monkey Beery:	and 100% is best?
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	20 % IS WHERE VEHICLES START HAVING PROBLEMS
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	yES
[11:22]	Richardus Raymaker:	!this sim have almost the same prims and script running as on rapscallion total fps and sim time are comparable
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	100% IS TOP SPEED
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Yet here is only at 20%
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, perhaps you could let us know what changes are in place for the sim performance project, and what the plans are?
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	As I understand it... some instrumentation is going to go out
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	Right, we have the ability to collect more information, which has pointed us at various events that cause lag. No real surprises, but we need to know the info so we can do before/after tests
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, the 1.25-Server branch event I've been talking about happened yesterday.
[11:25]	Monkey Beery:	what kind of various events?
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	There were some changes to the main loop of the simulator that have tried to lessen the impact of one region on another, which gets particularly bad with Open Space regions
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	That means that internal testing of the 1.25-Server will start this week.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	And a public version should be up next week sometime.
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open Space has four simulations to aCPU?
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	Teleport arrivals, for example - we know it takes a long time to parse the data about an incoming resident and build all the attachments and add them to the world
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Yes Arawn
[11:26]	Richardus Raymaker:	!i understand 4 for every core. its some fog with that
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Four CPU to the Simulator, but an open space simulator has four simulations to the CPU
[11:27]	Monkey Beery:	whats that orb btw?
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	Yes, it's 4 per core, but it's not hard-wired to that. The OS is free to move them around a bit between cores as it's scheduler sees fit (and it probably does a better job than if we tried to do that)
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	The orb on the table is just deccoration, right?
[11:27]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	Four CPUs to the host (computer box) - it's a quad core
[11:28]	Richardus Raymaker:	a quad core looks for me 1 cpu.
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	yeah, does anyone object to getting rid of that, or moving it away? I always wonder why that's here
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	So there's up to 16 open space regions running on one quad-core processor
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	whoever put it there, might
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	fwiw Rapscallion looks like it has 8 on that machine
[11:28]	Monkey Beery:	instead of 1 normal sim
[11:28]	Monkey Beery:	?
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	8 sims on one quad-core?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, there just happen to be 8 on that host.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	There could be anywhere from 1 to 16
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	4 regular regions on one quad core
[11:29]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[11:29]	Monkey Beery:	so 1 normal sim per core?
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	But it can take up to 16 open space sims?
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Depends on how the regions fall
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	yes, the number that ends up there depends on how the regions get distributed around to machines
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	but there are 8 spare slots on the host
[11:30]	Richardus Raymaker:	does it look how much load the cpu / region give before its assigned to a cpu ?
[11:30]	Monkey Beery:	that would be weird
[11:30]	Monkey Beery:	if you place a lot of big scripts after it was assigned
[11:30]	Richardus Raymaker:	16 loaded regios and its falling apart.
[11:31]	Monkey Beery:	then the whole sims system would havet to bve reorganised continuesly
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	The question has been raised internally about why we provide openspace regions
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	No, there's no load balancing. I've been thinking about that, but it's a difficult problem to juggle to avoid rewarding people sucking up lots of CPU or using camper bots
[11:31]	Richardus Raymaker:	rigthj
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	they are cheaper, but people tend to fill them up with regular content
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Open space regions are good for oceans
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	or parks
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	hey i have a question
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	if i have an openspace region
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	how many prim is that agin?
[11:32]	Richardus Raymaker:	3750
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	and a normal one
[11:32]	Richardus Raymaker:	15000
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	But they are being sub-divided and rented off without telling the renters what the drawbacks are
[11:32]	Monkey Beery:	and I make an ocean and use 10 prims, of the openspace region
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Right Kitto
[11:33]	Monkey Beery:	then can I use the other 3740 on my regular sim?
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	I keep getting train customers complaining that their train wont run.
[11:33]	Monkey Beery:	like prim land
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	No Monkey
[11:33]	Monkey Beery:	ok so you just have lots of prims left
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	Whjen I investigate I find another Open Space sim running poorly
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	yup
[11:33]	Monkey Beery:	that seems like a waste
[11:33]	Monkey Beery:	can't you make 10 prim no scrip regions? =D
[11:33]	Richardus Raymaker:	then you can run 32 on one cpu
[11:34]	Monkey Beery:	more =D
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	But - some - maybe all? Appear to be worse than 1/4 of the performance of a regular sim
[11:34]	Monkey Beery:	like 1000 on a cpu, would be kinda neat
[11:34]	Richardus Raymaker:	yes. but im still figuring that out
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	Well, scripts travel with people in attachments
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Monkey it is a waste similar to how the empty space on your friend's hard drive is a waste. That doesn't mean it is easy to let you have access to the spare hard drive space for your own computer.
[11:34]	Monkey Beery:	well, you could always make it n0-script
[11:34]	Monkey Beery:	no
[11:35]	Monkey Beery:	yes ok, but it is possible to wrtie my data to another computer over the internet
[11:35]	Monkey Beery:	SL consists of pure internet almost
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	The land barons wont be able to 'sell' a no-script area
[11:36]	Monkey Beery:	well, people with parks, or people who want oceans would buy it
[11:36]	Monkey Beery:	I would buy it for a park =D
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... yeah you're right in a sense. We have the power to allocate the hosts, so it might be possible (with smarter software) to put a bunch of empty open space regions on one host and fill up the wasted cpu cycles
[11:36]	Monkey Beery:	really?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	and try to move full openspace regions to less loaded hosts
[11:36]	Monkey Beery:	ok i thought I was just talking b*lls**t =D
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	however... we don't currently have such smart software
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	and we can'
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	we can't migrate a region to a new host without bringing it down and up again
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	A sort of Load Balancer
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	yeah, our distribution of regions is pretty much brain-dead, it doesn't take in account usage, load, etc of regions
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	How easy is it, to swap between cores?
[11:37]	Richardus Raymaker:	same problem
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	Stop the region. Start the region @ different address
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	I'd like to do it better, it's an idea that's been floating around. At least put some of the high-traffic regions onto boxes with either fewer regions, or make sure we don't put two high-load regions on the same box
[11:38]	Monkey Beery:	hey lufpleh, why don't you join us?
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	2 minutes on a good day :)
[11:38]	Monkey Beery:	yes
[11:38]	Monkey Beery:	the only downside to sl is, it's never night
[11:39]	Monkey Beery:	but you could take in account at what times the least people are in the region
[11:39]	Monkey Beery:	or maybe let the restart take effect when there is nobody for 5 minutes
[11:39]	Monkey Beery:	depending on howlong the restart would take
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	They'd be hard to move, once they got busy
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	Seems SL never had 'mirroring'
[11:40]	Monkey Beery:	couldn;t you move the processes one by one?
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	One can oly stop and restart elsewhere
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	If one could mirror a region on another cpu, then switch the traffic - it would be more instantaneous
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Correct Kitto
[11:41]	Monkey Beery:	thats weird
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	What would be the difficulty of mirroring? Is that dificult in existing structure, or safe from competitors?
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	The problem is that the region-state is a moving target, changing every frame (or more)
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Er... correct that we don't have mirroring.
[11:41]	Monkey Beery:	it doesnt sound hard to just copy-paste a whole sim and then change a number
[11:41]	Monkey Beery:	and, a delay of a couple of frames wouldnt be so noticable, would it?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Mirroring and "instantaneous" switch overs is not as easy as it sounds.
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Plus you have a ton of real-world network connections to keep alive or migrate in a move
[11:42]	Monkey Beery:	someone wouldn't move for a second
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	I expect not :)
[11:42]	Richardus Raymaker:	only the copy & paste is not so quick
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	Devil in the details :)
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	There would definitely be a freeze to do this - stop, move everyone's connections, resume
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Right, one of the details is that the network infrastructure required to do that is pretty hefty
[11:42]	Monkey Beery:	yes but the lenght of the copy paste wouldnt be noticable when people just continue on the old sim
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	It's a lot of work, but would be nice to have
[11:42]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	were all quite used to a freeze, we just call it lag!!
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	and when were were a scrapping start-up we didn't have the resources to spend on such hardware
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	Well - currently the viewers freeze for up to 30 secs - so...
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	Lag as a feature!
[11:43]	Monkey Beery:	thats ironic
[11:43]	Monkey Beery:	lag to reduce lag
[11:43]	Richardus Raymaker:	not seen that with linux
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	incidentally, one of our early competitors did go down the mirroring and migration road
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	or so I hear
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Really?
[11:43]	Monkey Beery:	and even more ironic is that that message had 10 seconds of lag
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Where did they end up?
[11:43]	Monkey Beery:	what software is a competitor for SL?
[11:43]	Richardus Raymaker:	/dev/null
[11:43]	Monkey Beery:	i dont really know any comparable software
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	There
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I've heard that was one of the technological inovations of There.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	And the chineese
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	i heard that in tehere, u could drive a car for miles, without bumps in the road:)
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	There burned through twice as much funding in their final stages than we've ever raised. Some of that was on some silver plated hardware.
[11:45]	Monkey Beery:	it was called There?
[11:45]	Kitto Flora:	Is There still selling to the Military?
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is it still There?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	There is still in operation.
[11:46]	Monkey Beery:	what was first, there or SL?
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	I heard that was a rumor, spread my someone in Linden Labs Marketing, but I wouldn't doubt the Pentagon's continued interest in Video Games, which they invented
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	I think There eventually overcame most of their mirroring problems. Dunno for sure how they solved things in the end.
[11:46]	Monkey Beery:	how = who
[11:46]	Richardus Raymaker:	You talk about americay's amry ?
[11:46]	Monkey Beery:	oh sorry
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	There started in the late 1990's... maybe around 1996 I hear. They launched in... late 2003?
[11:47]	Monkey Beery:	there isnt even available for mac =D
[11:47]	Monkey Beery:	and when did SL launch?
[11:47]	Richardus Raymaker:	ok. that sounds like something else i dont know
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	LL started in late 1999, but SL didn't really start development until late 2000.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	We launched in June 2003.
[11:48]	Monkey Beery:	ok but it was just two people one thought?
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	I was looking at SL and There in 2004
[11:48]	Monkey Beery:	or was one actually copied of the other?
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Friends recommended SL -and the price was right :)
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	The two efforts were totally independent. No cross polination at all.
[11:49]	Monkey Beery:	I joined sl, and two days later there was a news item on the internet, about the possibility of sex in second life =D
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... well not quite true. No cross pollination until we had beta's up.
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Then they came looking :)
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	We also tried There. However we recognized immediately that the two virtual spaces would be very different.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	In particular, we planned on having a very open content development model.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	So no upload registration process required.
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Anyone watching the Chinese version of SL?
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open Content Development is why their Physics Engine works better?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, dunno. I haven't been paying attention.
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler imagines a billion people required to log on, and Voice restricted to Mandarin
[11:51]	Monkey Beery:	brb
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	Well - notice how many mainland chineese are *not* here?
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I think there will soon be lots of largish virtual worlds that compete with SL.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Eventually you will be able to jump between several with one client.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	That is, seamless migration. Won't be seamless to start, but will get there.
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	what is a "largish virtual world"?
[11:53]	Richardus Raymaker:	i know for sure andrew
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open Grid Project. Grasmere at 1PM, I thinnk
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, I just meant "about as big as SL is"
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	oh, ok
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Jumping between worlds is an old trick - was lost on grapphicals but is now coming back
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	How's IBM doing, with thier Trusted Sub-Grid?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	So the Chinese virtual world may eventually be interoperable.
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	like, what is that thing called, red light district
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Not sure Arawn. I don't have any info on that project.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Years ago there were fights over 'poaching' due to jump gates between worlds
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Kitto, you're referring to some MUD history?
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:55]	Monkey Beery:	back
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	wb
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	So do you have some predictions about how the 3D virtual world interoperability and poaching is going ot pan out?
[11:55]	Monkey Beery:	thx
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Might be the same thing
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	BUt
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Theres so many people now
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	So many players
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	In the MUD days a big game has 30 people
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	When you say "players" you mean the users and residents, not the virtual worlds, right?
[11:56]	Richardus Raymaker:	30x 1Kbyte/s :)
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Pinching a few via a gateway was considered to be poaching
[11:57]	Monkey Beery:	can you explain what poaching means?
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Yes - 30 active residents in one game was a lot
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's a Gateway?
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	Registartions - 60,000 was not unusual
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	A gateway was an exit wit h a special descripption
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... ideally the residents would be able to pick where they are going, however eventually the true "world" you are in may blur
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Looked like **** Please recconect to 123.45.67.89:8000 ****
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	And the client would connect to that other address
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	So you could walk out a door of one MUD and arrive in another.
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:58]	Monkey Beery:	whats a MUD?
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	If you had an account at the destinantion
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Multiple User Dungeon
[11:58]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	A game like this by=ut text only - no graphics
[11:59]	Monkey Beery:	which is a game like SL?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	A 2D or text-based virtual world.
[11:59]	Monkey Beery:	so games like
[11:59]	Monkey Beery:	uhm
[11:59]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you have an account, though, creates a management nightmare, for the User.
[11:59]	Monkey Beery:	popmundo, knightfight, that type?
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	text only is hardly like sl
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	MUD/MUCK/MUSH/etc - all text only. Telnet client
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Its like sl in that its multi-user and you can explore it and build in it
[12:00]	Monkey Beery:	how can you build in a text based environment?
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Its like writing a book
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	u type:)
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler hadn't enrolled in such games, but thinks SL could become navigable for the Blind, if Helen Keller could navigate College.
[12:00]	Monkey Beery:	you can write: here is now a house
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	What you 'see' are descriptions
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	MUD's were early virtual worlds, and some of the player dynamics have correlations with 3D virtual worlds
[12:00]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	"You are in a bunch of twisty different pasages.
[12:01]	Monkey Beery:	but it'd be hard to 'walk around' in a MUD then
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	No, you could explore
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	There were many blind players in MUDS - they used text/voice encoder cards
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	you could move into other rooms
[12:01]	Monkey Beery:	this sound comparable to games like Popmundo
[12:01]	Monkey Beery:	don't know if you've ever heard of it?
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Walk by typing left, right up down
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	or 'black door'
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Collosal Cave, could be brought in world, and Text Based Games could even be played here.
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	I never heard of Popmundo
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	me neither
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Collosal Cave was the 'Dungeon' of 'MUD'
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	So,m someone made Collosal Cave interactive?
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Well - sort of
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	The exploring system of Collosal Cave + multi user + being able to build inside the game = MUD
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	The question of how Blind People could do 3-D modeling, leads to some visions, but they're hard to envision.
[12:04]	Monkey Beery:	you have systems with sound
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	The blind only used the text games
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Some of the MUDs were extremely customizable. In some ways more so than SL.
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	They were good at remembering where they went
[12:04]	Monkey Beery:	a computer translates a camera image into a sound pattern
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	Later MUDS had scripting languages
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	but here those MUDs browser based?
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	MUCK started it - used forth :(
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	Ugleeee
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	did browsers exsist?
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	No
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	Telnet type client
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	and whats MUCK?
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	Telnet?
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	or a special cliant called TinyTalk
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	Technichal terms from behind my era =D
[12:05]	Monkey Beery:	behind = before obviously
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	All used telnet protocol for client/server comms
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	MUCK was MUD with scripts added on
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	MUSH was a rewrite
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	as all this history is interesting, i do have a question regarding h4
[12:06]	Monkey Beery:	wow you actually move when you breathe =D
[12:06]	Monkey Beery:	never knew that
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	H4!
[12:06]	Monkey Beery:	Havoc 4!
[12:06]	Monkey Beery:	what is it?
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Rex, what is the question?
[12:07]	Richardus Raymaker:	for some a hell what i hear
[12:07]	Monkey Beery:	lol it's like the physics engine right?
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 is the physics engine SL uses.
[12:07]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[12:07]	Arawn Spitteler was not AOL Friendly, and had to learn IRC Protocol, when first in SL: I'll have to look up some Multi-User Dungeons, when I actually think of it.
[12:07]	Rex Cronon:	how can somebody can be pushed without the push showing?
[12:07]	Monkey Beery:	making weapons?
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	How does a push show normally?
[12:08]	Kitto Flora:	http://www.mudconnect.com/mud_search.html
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'm a bit confused by the question. Looking for clarification.
[12:08]	Kitto Flora:	Big lis of all the MUDS etc.
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Soo
[12:08]	Monkey Beery:	help > bumps, pushes and hits?
[12:08]	Sooden Ren:	\hiya
[12:08]	Richardus Raymaker:	hello sooden, nice wings
[12:08]	Monkey Beery:	hey
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	i am being pushed while in ghost mode and nothing shows on "bumps pushes hits" list
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I need to fix that ghost mode thing
[12:09]	Rex Cronon:	while in "ghost mode" only scripts should be able to push
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Why would Ghost Mode record a collision?
[12:10]	Rex Cronon:	it should record a push by a script
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, I'm not sure. Are these hard pushes? I think the "bumps and pushes" list only shows the big hits and pushes.
[12:10]	Monkey Beery:	whats ghost mode?
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	"ghose mode" is a when you make your avatar collisionless
[12:10]	Monkey Beery:	how?
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	it is a bug ATM that Rex is using as a misfeature
[12:10]	Rex Cronon:	this is ghost mode
[12:11]	Sooden Ren:	can i ask what the main topic is?
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	Note that the fact that Rex is bouncing means he is not colliding with the terrain
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	which means the avatar must be in the VolumeDetect collision group
[12:11]	Monkey Beery:	ok
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	i am not colliding with anything, and yet i am still pushed by something that doesn't show in the push list
[12:11]	Kitto Flora:	This was the Havok4 meeting, but its about over
[12:12]	Arawn Spitteler isn't sure there is one, but There was one: I think Andrew works with the Features of SL, at the moment, like getting SVC-2931 fixed up
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	Sooden, ATM we're talking about stealth pushes on your avatar.
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	Oh Rex, are you refering to what is bouncing you up?
[12:12]	Rex Cronon:	no
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	ok, so you experience other pushes...
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	what direction are the pushes?
[12:12]	Rex Cronon:	if u go to rausch, somebody has put some pushes that don't allow people to go to the safe zone
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	do they look like llPushObject() type ?
[12:13]	Rex Cronon:	that should be the only one that should be working
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	Where do the pushes occur?
[12:13]	Rex Cronon:	but when u use that it shows in the bumps, pushes list
[12:13]	Rex Cronon:	what do u mean where?
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	or do they appear to be irregular collisions? momentary collisions that shouldn't be happening?
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	I meant, "What regions do you notice these pushes?"
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	er... "In what regions..."
[12:14]	Rex Cronon:	they don't seem to be pushes using the script function
[12:14]	Rex Cronon:	something else pushes
[12:14]	Andrew Linden:	or maybe, "In which regions..."
[12:15]	Rex Cronon:	i told u at rausch
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ah rausch. So it is a weapon of some sort.
[12:15]	Rex Cronon:	is a pusher
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	That is a good question Rex. I'm not sure how it is being done to avoid being detected on the list.
[12:16]	Rex Cronon:	collisions with objects don't happen
[12:16]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps I'll look into that. The code that generates the list... I've never really looked at it carefully.
[12:16]	Andrew Linden:	I didn't write it, and have never had much reason to read it.
[12:17]	Rex Cronon:	i just want to know what cause it
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	There have been anecdotes of some phantom and VolumeDetect objects getting some momentary collisions
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	that is, they collide with things only for a moment, but enough to divert their velocity and be detectable
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if perhaps there is something that is hitting you. I take it you've made invisible prims visible and didn't see anything?
[12:18]	Rex Cronon:	right, i don't see anything
[12:18]	Monkey Beery:	anyways, im gone
[12:18]	Monkey Beery:	bb
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	it tried even teh wiremove
[12:19]	Sooden Ren:	collison groips filter script
[12:19]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... it's a mystery!
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	wire mode:)
[12:19]	Sooden Ren:	group*
[12:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	That might be a bug in VolumeDetect, as failing to suppress, but Phantom isn't on the Engine, I shouldthink
[12:19]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to go.
[12:19]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	bye monkey
[12:19]	Richardus Raymaker:	bye andrew
[12:19]	Sooden Ren:	o no no
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	if u want to see u it for yourself, u can go to rausch:)
[12:19]	Kitto Flora:	Luncy time
[12:19]	Sooden Ren:	bad nm
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew, bye everybody
[12:19]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:19]	Richardus Raymaker:	bye kitto.
[12:20]	Richardus Raymaker:	time for other meeting
[12:20]	Simon Linden:	bye everyone