User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 02 24

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:00]	xstorm Radek:	i have them built in 2 cards for that
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	but there is a problem with it on the test server
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, SL uses an engine from Havok, and our sims are on racks with minimal graphics in use
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	hi Andrew
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	I don't think they do any GPU acceleration
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	hello everyone
[11:01]	Bio Swindlehurst:	hello
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	hey Andrew :D
[11:01]	Twisted Laws:	hello
[11:01]	Andromeda Quonset:	hi
[11:02]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ok... I have a few small things on my agenda today...
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	(1) I said last week that I would look into whether any work was being done about the "avatars always look NorthEast when arriving after a landmark teleport" but I haven't been able to get to that item yet.
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	It is still on my TODO list.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	(2) The bug fixes that are in my maint-server-6 branch have been merged into server-1.26 after all (it was not a done deal as of last office hour)
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I still need to go through the public jira list and comment on the "fix pending" bugs that will be in server-1.26
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:05]	Moon Metty:	hi Rex :)
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	oops
[11:05]	xstorm Radek:	i like you too Rex lol
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	lol
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	(3) trivia... I'm currently wrapping my maint-server-7 branch up for testing -- those fixes will be in server-1.27, and I've created maint-server-8 which has no work done in it yet.
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi:)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, that is the end of my updates.
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	hi rex :-)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	The topic of discussion is open, should anyone have an issue or question.
[11:06]	Helena Lycia:	I have a quick question
[11:06]	Helena Lycia:	Is there any official position on (animation) deformations?
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, I dropped you some time/location of Av using the 'punch' thing - any clues there?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	lots of updates?
[11:07]	Eata Kitty:	Isn't deformation a client issue
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I got the IM's but haven't been able to look into them yet. I'm going to try to do it today.
[11:07]	Helena Lycia:	Ah, good point
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Helena, could you provide more info about "animation deformations"? I'm unfamiliar with the term.
[11:07]	Helena Lycia:	Who should I ask?
[11:08]	Andromeda Quonset:	I read in a past trascript of some possible change to llSetPos so that you couldn't cross a sim border with it. If that change is put in, it will cause existing products to break.
[11:08]	Helena Lycia:	There are a client-side "bug" that some AV crators are using to make unusual AVs
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ah. Hrm... who to ask.
[11:09]	Helena Lycia:	LIke this
[11:09]	Jessica Kabumpo Laughs
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect that relying on a clien-side bug is a really bad idea.
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Since the client is open-source there is absolutely no gaurantee that the bug/misfeature would be supported in future clients.
[11:09]	Helena Lycia:	Me too but a fairly major AV makers uses them extensively, such that we're also now looking at using them
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	That is LL could not gaurantee support in all clients.
[11:10]	Twisted Laws:	i think deformations are just a lack of bounds checking for animation positions.
[11:10]	Helena Lycia:	Yes
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	My advice, Helena would be to go ahead and use the misfeature, but to not bank your business on it lasting.
[11:10]	Helena Lycia:	BUt there's a fair bit of content out htere now relying on them
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	As to who to ask... if you could find an LL dev who holds office hours and work more on the SL client...
[11:11]	Helena Lycia:	I'm representing someone else on this matter, as you know my current area of interest is vehicles
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Qarl Linden perhaps
[11:11]	Helena Lycia:	Thanks
[11:11]	Twisted Laws:	i was wondering if you can same more about this item... "Look into throttling AV (attachment) scripts more to keep sim frame rates high"
[11:11]	Twisted Laws:	say, not same
[11:11]	Twisted Laws:	lol
[11:11]	Helena Lycia:	That scares me - lol
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Andromeda, you mention a past transcript about nerfing llSetPos() over region boundaries. Are you talking about one of my transcripts?
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	u see this animation:)
[11:12]	Andromeda Quonset:	Yes sir
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	I don't recall saying that. I don't have any plans on limiting llSetPos() in that way...
[11:12]	Helena Lycia:	Cool Rez
[11:13]	Andromeda Quonset:	that is a relief.
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	if animations r fixed, this and other like it r gone for good:(
[11:13]	Helena Lycia:	Err Rex
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	however I do remember talking about limiting how far away WarPos and the other one could operate.
[11:13]	Lasting Magic:	Problem with attachment throttling is it already sometimes takes half an hour to an hour to change an av with lots of attachments.
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I've looked at the attachment/script throttling. It's part of general work trying to get better control over sim performance
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Lasting, I don't think we were talking about throttling data updates of attachments, but of throttling their scripts, or perhaps the total prim count of attachment outfits.
[11:14]	Twisted Laws:	do you have any ideas on how much it may be limited?
[11:15]	Eata Kitty:	I assume attachment throttling would mean each avatar has like, a local version of time dilation? So rather than dropping or delaying requests they just get dilated. Otherwise it could break things quite easily?
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	No, that's the whole point of looking into it.
[11:15]	xstorm Radek:	i hate OpenGL Version: 2.1.2
[11:15]	xstorm's translator:	Odio OpenGL Versin: 2.1.2
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: More power to you! Av-attached script load is getting worse and worse. I booted an 'away' av last week wit ha 5.5mS load
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	If we do limit attachment scripts it would be to prevent one person from taking too many script resources with a very heavy scripted avatar.
[11:15]	Twisted Laws:	how do you see the current load of an avatar's scripts?
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	It comes down to trying to keep a balance ... say you have 20 AVs on a region. Should 2 or 3 of them run scripts that slow it down for everyone else?
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Get the av to sit on an object, used 'Get Top Scripts'
[11:16]	Twisted Laws:	i don't disagree with it Simon, just wondering what kind of impact it may be
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I think attachment scripts show up in the "top scripts" scan, right?
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	With 1.26 the AV's name will show up in 'top scripts' without them sitting
[11:16]	Twisted Laws:	didn't used to show up there Andrew
[11:16]	Helena Lycia:	They only show up if they're sitting on something
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: As of 1.26 I think they do - I heard
[11:16]	Moon Metty:	yes, they do Andrew
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Ah
[11:16]	Eata Kitty:	What about the overhead from a lot of scripts? Isn't that a big part of the problem and won't go away from throttling?
[11:17]	Eata Kitty:	If overhead is an issue, perhaps its not
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I think better script scheduling and balance is something we're planning on working on over the next year.
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Twisted - right, it has to be done in a reasonable way
[11:17]	Moon Metty:	cool
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I think Babbage Linden has some plans in that regard
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	but I don't know the details.
[11:18]	Andromeda Quonset:	I wonder if throttling will have an impact on my megaprim organizer device? it has maybe 140 scripts in it :)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	My guess as to how script scheduling changes would happen is...
[11:18]	Eata Kitty:	Something like that would be I/O driven so it shouldn't matter unless you are using it
[11:18]	xstorm Radek:	the LSL older scripts are making more bugs and more updats that make more lag and crashing in sim's
[11:18]	Twisted Laws:	my suggestion is to trottle no more than 10% per release until you get to where it should be :)
[11:18]	Helena Lycia:	Heh, until the llSetLink functions came along my main AV had over 1000 scripts in it
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	parcel owners would get first dibbs some share of script resources... up to some percentage of the pie
[11:18]	Lasting Magic:	I believe certain functions should not be allowed to run in attachments, like llSensor()
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	some percentage would be reserved for public attachments
[11:19]	Eata Kitty:	Do scripts even crash sims? People always claim that but it doesn't sound likely
[11:19]	Helena Lycia:	No llSensor in attachments!!! erk - no please
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	wow lasting. take it easy. why not
[11:19]	Lasting Magic:	Yes, please.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	and then some piece for general anonymous scripts
[11:19]	Helena Lycia:	How do we find trouble makes in sims without radar HUDS
[11:20]	Eata Kitty:	Bug a client side linden to add it to the client!
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	if any category did not use up their full share, then the remainder would be available to the others
[11:20]	Twisted Laws:	sensor doesn't have to be in the hud for a radar to still continue to work but that would increase load to tell the hud from remote sensor
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Eata - yes, scripts can crash sims in certain cases. It's a lot easier to hog resource too
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler thinks it would serve anti griefing better, to have a setting, no-scripts for basics
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Prevent llSensor() in attachments and my customoer support with be limited.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Often there are crash bugs in scripts. We fix them when we find 'em.
[11:21]	Lasting Magic:	ever see what happens to a sim with only 15 llSensors firing off all at once?
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	there are lots of uses for llsensor in huds, attachments
[11:21]	xstorm Radek:	will we still have some form of script listeners to spot problem makers in a sim ?
[11:21]	Eata Kitty:	Speaking of, raising the sensor detection limit and range might actually reduce the load from people making full sim sensors and things
[11:21]	Helena Lycia:	Yeah
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	i have seen sims with over 100 sensors working at the same time:) and no lag
[11:22]	Moon Metty:	script throttling is a good thing, but we need scripting tools to monitor it
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	I think ideally there should be finer control for the sim owner ... I can imagine in some games or other complex regions you'd want to level the playing field by being able to control sensors in attachements
[11:22]	Helena Lycia:	Is there any way to make sensors more efficient?
[11:22]	Lasting Magic:	I've seen sims with 20 sensors lag to death.
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	YEah - a legit problem with Av-attached script load is that Avs cant in general tell WHAT their load is
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect we wouldn't be able to eliminate certain script calls in attachments in general (too much broken content) but it might be possible in the future for parcels and estates to dictate some subset of calls that fail for attachments
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	it depends on who wrote the script:)
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	A lot depends on what the sensors do -- extra load their scripts have
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	'Get Top Scripts' is SOOOO limited in its availability = people are working in the dark
[11:23]	xstorm Radek:	it be nice to have a button on the map that can see local running scripts
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	lasting the lag wan't caused by llsensor
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Helena, I would like to look into making sensors more efficient. I suspect it could be done.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	We should be able to monitor scripts on our property, wehther Estate or Avie
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	each script should at least know about its own throttle
[11:24]	Twisted Laws:	yeah, some of us just live on the mainland :(
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, better tools for monitoring script scheduling. I suspect they will eventually be written.
[11:24]	xstorm Radek:	what if its was in the landowners menu ?
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	Sensors are so useful, I try to avoid them because of their inefficiencies, if they could be more efficient then I think a lot of content would be more sim-firendly
[11:25]	Eata Kitty:	POKE!
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	The landowners already have some access to on-parcel script resources, right? That tool just needs improvement, along with the script scheduler.
[11:25]	Moon Metty:	yep
[11:25]	Eata Kitty:	I don't know how it works currently but I assume sensors actually go individually detect everyone... maybe the sim should have a list of clients and their positions ready so it can just easily do a intersection check to find people in range and easily return the results. Maybe cache them too
[11:25]	Helena Lycia:	The current land/estate owner tools are very limited
[11:26]	Andromeda Quonset:	The current tool doesn't work for the sim owner if he happens to have "sold" the parcel to his tenant.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Eata, yes the way the sensor sorts through the objects is very inefficient.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	It does not use any sort of fancy "collision detection" algorithm.
[11:26]	Eata Kitty:	I think that goes back to more granular controls for estates, which people are ery keen on
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	yes. llGetSimAvatas() returns list, would be very usefull:)
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if the physics engine could be recruited to do more efficient sensor reports.
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	sim_avatars_got(integer N)
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	As I recall, Kitto had some suggestions on LSL calls (API changes) that could make his vehicles much more efficient
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	right now he uses sensors to detect the lay of the track, I think
[11:27]	Eata Kitty:	It seems like it would be the best way. Then you wouldn't even need to change anything. You could even hand cached results to scrips and things so no-one even has to code differently but the simulator doesnt do extra work if they make a crazy intense one
[11:28]	Twisted Laws:	i think your physics engine does pretty good considering the sim attacks i've seen
[11:28]	xstorm Radek:	when will the sim map your in become 3D for the people that build ?
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	but the sensors cannot easily filter out the objects in which he's not interested
[11:28]	Eata Kitty:	I had an issue related to this
[11:28]	Eata Kitty:	Well, feature request
[11:28]	Eata Kitty:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2654
[11:28]	xstorm Radek:	3D mapping may help plot scripts in a sim
[11:29]	Arawn Spitteler wonders where to put a sensor filter: Objects created by Kitto Flora Only?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, a team has been working on the map, but I don't think a 3D version is included in the scope of their work
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... llTraceLine()
[11:30]	xstorm Radek:	tracking down lost running scripts or prims and landlines in a 3D map will work better for land/ estate owners
[11:31]	Helena Lycia:	Yeah
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Lost Balloons have been a problem
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	one problem with the llTraceLine() idea is that I doubt it could be fast enough to use it for the things you're hoping to
[11:31]	Twisted Laws:	we have a good rendering engine,.... just need a mode where it displays spheres for each script that get bigger when they are using more sim resource....
[11:32]	Eata Kitty:	dataserver kind of speed?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	in my experience you can do neat things with ray traces... but often you need to do a lot of them, and have some relatively heavy algorithm code to handle the results
[11:33]	Eata Kitty:	Even a limited one would be nice. It does give you the hands to find things in the dark which you can't do right now :x
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm sure some people would find perfectly good uses of llTraceLine() even if it was as slow as llSensor()
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	how is llTraceLine supposed to work?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect some of what you're hoping to get done with llTraceLine() would be solved by client-side scripting (if that were possible)
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	special effects stuff should be done client-side anyway
[11:35]	Helena Lycia:	I'd wondered about client-side scripting for HUDs, if you ahve a HUD that changes stextures/text/prims then it would amke sense if that were done client-side
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	What's the current best client-side scripting system? I haven't kept up-to-date on anything there
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I think llTraceLine() would be like llSensor() but you would just get info about the object hit by a ray-trace in a certain direction
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, I wasn't talking about an existing client-side scripting system, but was thinking about some ideas that Babbage Linden has mentioned...
[11:36]	Twisted Laws:	well you can change the angle in llSensor and only look at things along a certain axis
[11:36]	Eata Kitty:	I was thinking of asking for client side stuff. Like, a whole set of client side functions. Obviously very simple ones like particles and client collision
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	such as getting some MONO (.Net) scripts to be able to call some client-side libs
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	Right, I like what he's talked about
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	right Twisted, so think of llTraceLine() as llSensor() with a very tight beam...
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	Sounds like llSensor() with a vector for axis direction rather than the dumb '+x'
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	but ideally it would use an effecient sorting algorithm to actually find the objects hit... such as a real ray-trace by the physics engine
[11:38]	Rex Cronon:	if scripts can call libs on client side, it might leaad to big problems if somebody makes a trojan:(
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed Rex.
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	If time permits, I don't know the Jira for the Knock Twice Bug
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Thoughts like that must give us pause.
[11:39]	Eata Kitty:	The idea is... right now, if I made a box and wanted it to walk around this area, how would it find the walls? You have to use collision detection of some kind right now, no way around it. But a TraceLine would look that way for you and say yeap theres a wall at exactly XYZ
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Claws give Paws?
[11:39]	Eata Kitty:	Sure you can sensor walls but that just tells you where their middle is... not exactly useful
[11:39]	Twisted Laws:	i worry about some of the things already available... like always making avatar phantom.... http://code.google.com/p/par/
[11:40]	Andromeda Quonset:	Might be nice to be able to tell if the wall is phantom.
[11:40]	Helena Lycia:	Yeah, ray tracing could be useful... to identify would a particular direction clip an object
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	llWhat'sThatWay?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	well, I'll add llTraceLine() to my list of feature requests.
[11:40]	Helena Lycia:	Heh, I'd like to be able to make an agent phantom if it was sitting on a phantom vehicle
[11:41]	Twisted Laws:	use llVolumedetect
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	A week or two ago I was asking people here to give me their favorite llFoo() feature request ideas.
[11:41]	Andromeda Quonset:	llVolumeDetect won't detect phantom objects.
[11:41]	Eata Kitty:	Traceline really needs that normal detection part to empower it, its a linked issue
[11:41]	Helena Lycia:	You have to be phantom to use llVolumeDetect
[11:41]	Twisted Laws:	it will make you phantom
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I was hoping to be able to start working on some of the easier ones (deliverable in short time) this quarter.
[11:41]	Grace: Giggles when, Silyguse Aeon, tickles toes!
[11:41]	Helena Lycia:	Not funny when you're a ground vehicle
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	or something like that gives the closes facet alon the vector
[11:41]	Eata Kitty:	Avatars going phantom is a bug. I remember when it was widespread a few years back
[11:41]	Eata Kitty:	But it was fixed
[11:42]	Moon Metty:	llGetPstDate() should be easy
[11:42]	Eata Kitty:	I guess theres a new one
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	VolumeDetect is a Pseudo Phantom.
[11:42]	Helena Lycia:	It's pahntom enough
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	llGetPstDate()... what does that do?
[11:42]	Twisted Laws:	my train that runs the linden railroads does that so it runs thru other people and trains
[11:42]	Moon Metty:	get the SL date, instead of GMT
[11:42]	Twisted Laws:	only works if avatar is sitting on the prims
[11:42]	Eata Kitty:	Oh you're not talking about avatars, whoops
[11:43]	Twisted Laws:	lets avatars run thru each other
[11:43]	Andromeda Quonset:	hmmm. Ghost avatars?
[11:43]	Eata Kitty:	Why would you want a timezone specific one? Just manipulate what llGetDate tells you
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	oy, another bit of content that would break when I fix phantom sitting avatars.
[11:43]	Twisted Laws:	its a good thing when used right :p
[11:43]	Keith Tungsten:	keith tungsten
[11:43]	Helena Lycia:	SOme proper date/time manipulation functions would be nice
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ghost Avies, I saw some recently, at Spirit City
[11:44]	Helena Lycia:	rather than having to process date components via strings
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	aren't phantom sitting avatars fixed?
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	?
[11:44]	Moon Metty:	oh, and a proper realtime microsecond timer
[11:44]	Eata Kitty:	oh... speaking avatars. Did you know speaking avatars aren't detected as AGENT? They show up as OBJECT. You can't tella sitting avatar in a collision you have to use a sensor
[11:44]	xstorm Radek:	hold on no mess with phantom
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Eata, "speaking avatars" ? do you mean sitting avatars?
[11:45]	Twisted Laws:	compare ownerkey to key will tell u if its an avatar
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	A more accurate timer would be tough ... we'd have to get better control of the script scheduling first
[11:45]	Eata Kitty:	Yeah, sorry
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	No Rex, I don't have a fix for the phantom sitting avatar bug yet.
[11:45]	Andromeda Quonset:	I'm noticing that temporary-on-rez objects tend to take a lot longer to vanish.
[11:45]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[11:45]	xstorm Radek:	but i like that bug
[11:45]	Helena Lycia:	Why are agents sitting on phantom phsyical objects not pahntom themselves, when an agent sitting on a non-phys object can move though things if the object is scripted to do so?
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Andromeda, really? How long? Where are you noticing this?
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	sitting agent = agent is daughter attacment of seat object, which is root. So detected as 'objectt'
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Temp is better than llDie(), it's thought, because of the Ghosted Collider Bug
[11:46]	Andromeda Quonset:	the most noticeable is when i see the conover sim radar in my office showing multiple markers for a single AV.
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	well, Kitto, we already do some sub-prim collision discrimination. It should be possible to detect when hitting an avatar sub-prim (sitting avatar).
[11:47]	Andromeda Quonset:	The markers are supposed to be temporary.
[11:47]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[11:47]	xstorm Radek:	that sit to be invisable never works
[11:47]	Eata Kitty:	I don't see why you would want it to tell you its an object
[11:47]	Andromeda Quonset:	I think it started with the update from 1.24 to 1.25.
[11:47]	Object: Hit:	Chair - Type: 12
[11:47]	Object: Hit:	Chair.Array v1.0 - Type: 12
[11:47]	Object: Hit:	Chair.Array v1.0 - Type: 12
[11:47]	Moon Metty:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2774 string llGetPSTDate()
[11:48]	Eata Kitty:	I mean type is a bitfield. It could tell you OBJECT AGENT and then you would know it was a sitting av
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	i can no longer become phantom
[11:49]	Eata Kitty:	Maybe it got bug fixed
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Oh, I also added more to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3511 It appears border crossing vehicles are being lost in other places.
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler thought Rex's Phantomization was bug-fixed months ago
[11:50]	Helena Lycia:	Border crossing seems to be getting much more scary these days, even when not on vehicles
[11:50]	Twisted Laws:	border crossings are terrible now but i figured that was asset loading issues
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	ooo
[11:50]	Eata Kitty:	I know there was some discussion of methods to improve border crossing in the past but I think it wasn't an easy task
[11:50]	xstorm Radek:	but is that not what phantom setting for ?
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	One suspects that asset server probems affect border crossing
[11:51]	Helena Lycia:	I wondered whether it was network issues caused as a side effect of the work to ditch VPN
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	When did you notice a change, or has it always been this bad?
[11:51]	Twisted Laws:	on the train you can't be going more than 5m a sec to even have a chance of crossing
[11:51]	Andromeda Quonset:	I thought ithe border crossing for the past couple of weeks were perilious due to the OS updating.
[11:51]	Helena Lycia:	3 weeks now?
[11:51]	xstorm Radek:	if its working on the phantom caller why is it a bug ?
[11:51]	Eata Kitty:	Actually I have a terrible time with teleporting recently, not border crossing. I normally have to try at least three times
[11:51]	Twisted Laws:	just the last couple weeks
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	The border-crossing problems were brought up in a meeting today. I suspect we'll be working on some of the bugs there next quarter, but then I tend to be optimistic about stuff like that.
[11:52]	Twisted Laws:	:)
[11:52]	Helena Lycia:	Get weird persistent crossing problems along a specific border, going via other sims bypasses the problem which indicates it isn't just a colo problem
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	TPs and border crossings are pretty similar ... both basically involve handing the AV between regions
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	It would be reallly good if border crossing got a work-over
[11:52]	Jessica Kabumpo:	Yes!
[11:53]	Helena Lycia:	Yes
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	here's a poll I'm interested in: Which is more painful for you: inventory loss or border crossing bugs?
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	I'd like to get time to work on that, but not sure of what I'm signed up for
[11:53]	Twisted Laws:	haha on that andrew...
[11:53]	Moon Metty:	inventory loss!
[11:53]	Helena Lycia:	I haven't suffered much in the way of inventory loss - border-crossings kill me
[11:53]	Andromeda Quonset:	inventory loss
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	is boards crossing floating away and crash just not part of SL now and not a bug ?
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	lol
[11:53]	Eata Kitty:	Where's our three stage commits!
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Do you get much of them together?
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	inventory:(
[11:54]	Eata Kitty:	Full acidity :P!
[11:54]	Andromeda Quonset:	a relogon can usually fix a border crossing. But it won't fix an inventory loss, or give me L$ to but a replacement.
[11:54]	Andromeda Quonset:	buy*
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Hard choice - I'd say border crossing bugs are worse - as they are much more frequent than inventory loss
[11:54]	Helena Lycia:	I've lost more in the way of contented testing vehicles accidentally crossing borders than through direct inventory loss
[11:54]	Twisted Laws:	but i sorta like riding the linden railroads .... and that is hard to do these days :p
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Okay, I was curious. Those two items were mentioned in a discussion, and they were sorted (with others) such that inventory loss was at the top, and border crossing problems were in the middle somewhere
[11:55]	Eata Kitty:	I imagine its one of those visibility things. You might not notice inventory loss but it will drive people crazy if they do. Borders just annoy them frequently
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	i have lost so much inventory from crashing do to TP and boarder crossings i ignore it now
[11:55]	xstorm Radek:	make backups
[11:55]	Eata Kitty:	I dont think I've ever lost anything
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	It seems like inventory loss is more pain when it happens, but crossing/TP problems are more frequent
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Twisted: With massive scripting, I have a engine + carriage train that runs on SLRR.
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Slowly...
[11:55]	Jessica Kabumpo:	Border crossings and TPs have forced logouts on me.
[11:55]	Helena Lycia:	Yes Simon
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Around walking speed only
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler'd put the stations at borders.
[11:56]	Eata Kitty:	TPs are not fun when it fails and then you get stuck as a ghost in the original sim and have to relog :(
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	The border crossing problems are preventing the development of much-requested content.
[11:56]	Helena Lycia:	Hey, I'm a dragon, we want to fly across borders, carrying our victims... err our riders
[11:57]	Jessica Kabumpo:	With TP failures, I get "You have been logged out of Second Life for inactivity." or "Region Offline"
[11:57]	Helena Lycia:	Don't want to have to stop and wait 5 mins at a border
[11:57]	xstorm Radek:	is it may be a running script that may be doing this when we TP or cross a boarder ?
[11:57]	Eata Kitty:	No as I understood it, it has to save and transfer the state of all your attachments and then restore them on the other sim
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Eata is right.
[11:57]	Eata Kitty:	\o/
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	Eata - right, and remove the AV and any objects from one simulation and add it to another
[11:58]	Twisted Laws:	i detach everythhing when ridning the train... and its only 7 scripts that run it
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	if its a script there needs to be a way to stop all scripts on teleport and boarder crossings
[11:58]	Andromeda Quonset:	Sounds almost like having to undergo a search at the border in RL.
[11:58]	Twisted Laws:	the train will continue... the rider often gets crashed or sitting in 0, 0
[11:58]	xstorm Radek:	if its stops the problem why not ?
[11:58]	Helena Lycia:	Predictive handoffs might help with border crossings
[11:58]	Helena Lycia:	But wouldn't help with TPs
[11:58]	Andromeda Quonset:	Wouldn't want it to stop the teleport script.
[11:59]	Jessica Kabumpo:	I've been in flight when a sim crossing failed. That's painful.
[11:59]	Eata Kitty:	I'm sure it's a major design headache to make sure it behaves perfectly
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	Twisted - look up https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3511
[11:59]	Helena Lycia:	But then again some border crossings take so long that any predictive process would have to be damn near psychic
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if this all goes back the the venerable SVC-22
[11:59]	Helena Lycia:	I've had border crossings take 3 mins
[11:59]	Jessica Kabumpo:	end up in (1048576,1048576) and then the client crashes
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	a teleport is a call on the server it can shut off things or turn them on
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	We've had some people look into the client's predicted motion during a crossing/TP ... it may help the 'sail off into the sunset' problem
[11:59]	Eata Kitty:	I think it would actually have to prepare some kind of shared pool for all bordering sims that they can access quickly
[11:59]	Twisted Laws:	mine ran the tracks for about an hour the other day, had 8 out, all automatic
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, it wouldn'
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Arawan: Its not to do with permissions at borders - in this case
[12:00]	Twisted Laws:	they didn't have problems with the sim crossings... it was only the avatars that were riding them
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	it wouldn't be decent office hours without a mention of SVC-22
[12:00]	Moon Metty:	lol
[12:00]	Eata Kitty:	The problem is getting your states and things to agree so you dont get duplicates, loss of state or other exciting things
[12:00]	xstorm Radek:	lol'
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Permissions at Borders, aren't those a matter of the Avatar not being on the vehicle, until well after the vehicle gets bounced?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've got to run to another meeting that starts now.
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	weird enough, i don't have that many problems crossing, but i mostly tp:)
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:01]	Moon Metty:	thank you very much Andrew, and Simon
[12:01]	Twisted Laws:	bye, thanks
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run to another meeting ... thanks everyone for coming
[12:01]	Andromeda Quonset:	bye
[12:01]	Eata Kitty:	Byebye, thankyou
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye simon
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye all
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye kitto
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	thank you Andrew
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Bye all
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	thank you simon
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	ty lag
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody