User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 03 19

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Ardy Lay:	Ha!
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	i can't see a thing
[17:02]	Charmer Dreadlow gave you Please IM Me, ASAP! - Charmer Dreadlow.
[17:02]	Ardy Lay:	I like yours better.
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	two models behind me one belongs to Ardy
[17:02]	Day Oh gave you crash-related items.
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	lol
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	the other is worn by Moon
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	hi Andrew :)
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Andrew
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, RextormAndrew
[17:03]	Ardy Lay:	I thought it was a fun gag.
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	have a seat Miles
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	my previous open hour was trolled and I got a resident and 3 alts ARd and ejected in one swoop, good on the GTeam
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	hi every one
[17:04]	Moon Metty:	hey Storm
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	hiii
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	hello
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	hi Andrew am i still ok to come and bug ya ;-)
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	hi Simon
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	of course, xstorm
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Trolled? As in,, Someone baited the flamers?
[17:05]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	why, hello!
[17:05]	Patty1 Rosca:	wops
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon
[17:05]	Patty1 Rosca:	sowwy
[17:06]	Ardy Lay:	And the tie goes to Simon?
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	anouncements: I don't think I have much.
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	hi Storm
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	Someone should do musical chairs inside SL
[17:06]	xstorm Radek:	hi hi :-)
[17:06]	Ellla McMahon:	hello Andrew Simon .. everyone :))
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	hehe go on Andrew tell us some gossip then
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	There are worries about an increase in memory footprint in server-1.26, when going from 32bit executables to 64bit
[17:06]	Patty1 Rosca:	howdy
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	everyone is dying to know where this is all going - some watercooler moments will do
[17:07]	xstorm Radek:	oh i found out some thing that makes big problems for sims
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	so we're probably going to ship 32bit servers for that and then investigate memory footprint problems/optimizations
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Shipping Servers?
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	ah so less RAM for the avies then - nice one since prim whores are so abundant these days
[17:07]	xstorm Radek:	64 bit i hope
[17:08]	Kitto Flora:	Mem now uses 64 bits per ASCII char?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	shipping code. deploy. deliver.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	no Kitto, but pointers are now 8bytes instead of 4
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Shipping to the Colos? I don't think anybody but Linden Labs is using SL Servers
[17:08]	xstorm Radek:	64 CPU i hope
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	the problem, I think, is that some high-use regions were pushing the memory footprint
[17:09]	xstorm Radek:	hi Morgain
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	and a 64bit transition would push them up about 10-25%, and over an edge
[17:09]	Kitto Flora things this points to bigger memory, buys shares in DRAMcos.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	that is the fear, anyway
[17:10]	xstorm Radek:	well i have been seeing real problems that rezzers make for sims
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	wow so from now on we have to go butt naked in korea or we will crash under the current load?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	the glorious future points toward bigger memory. Buy shares in the startups that put the DRAM co's out of business.
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler thinks Kitto thinks things rather than things thinks.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	someday the L2 cache will have be 1TB
[17:10]	Kitto Flora:	things aint what they used to be.
[17:11]	Moon Metty:	lol
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	it seems rezzers no only have been crashing some sims but people are trying to get more prims from land then there permited
[17:11]	xstorm Radek:	not
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	what do you mean xstorm? You mean temp-rezzers are becoming more common?
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	think that by going bare, u support the anti-fur movement.(wearing no fur in rl)
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	0 prim rezzers
[17:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Fur is a texture, so Fuzzy Wuzzy can be a bare bear
[17:12]	xstorm Radek:	i have been seeing some venders and builders use them
[17:12]	Kitto Flora:	WHat is a 0 prim rezzer?
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	rezzer homes are crap scriptefficiency described it years ago, but crap product appears to be the mantra in Second Life™ success
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	if it is low efficiancey it wins in the marketplace - LSL prim whatever
[17:13]	xstorm Radek:	they can put up to 200 or more prims in one 0 prim rezzer and make it seem there using 1 prim
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	untill rezzed a rezzer is one prim
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I wonder how one might crack-down, fix, or break temp-rezzers without breaking some of the nice things about temp-rez
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	what is a 0 prim rezzer?
[17:14]	xstorm Radek:	the problem is when you do a sim restart many times it lags the sim down so bad that it has crashed some times
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	Just make it more obvious what the impact of such bjects is
[17:15]	Kitto Flora:	objects
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	surely once rezzed the prim count is true
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought Temp Rezzers were already borked? CG Has a minesweeper game that stopped working, until he reduced the temp prims
[17:15]	xstorm Radek:	they are finding ways around it again
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	is this it (on table)Kitty?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	oh, a 0 prim rezzer would be a temp object A which rezzes temp object B which rezzes another A and so on.
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	That is an LSL timer
[17:16]	xstorm Radek:	this is one such case
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	Tells you how poorly Scripts are running in the sim
[17:16]	Rex Cronon:	a self-replicator?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I've got an idea on how to break indefinite temp-rezzers, but I'll keep it to myself. Needs more thought.
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	there are people like nada rezzer building stuff like this
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	the land that it is on sees it as one prim
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	even when we see it as more
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	ah weird?
[17:18]	Arawn Spitteler reset SVC-2931 as a New Feature Request, but left the Critical Status as an understatement: Is there any hope of straightening out the SLPP Rotation issue?
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	maybe I want one (been on prim limit since 2007)
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	right xstorm, because all the prims you see are temp, and they show up on a different tally for the parcel.
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	when you have a large number of them it can crash a server
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	or sim if you wish
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	there must be a way to stop this
[17:19]	xstorm Radek:	some rule ?
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	The SLPP rotation issue. I was thinking I should tackle that one soon.
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	See the dent it puts in LSL speed, when the tems refresh
[17:20]	xstorm Radek:	is it not in some way hacking or using a hole in the server ?
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	The emergencies that have been distracting me have slowed down. I'm starting to whittle on my long list of old projects.
[17:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	Temp Rez Landmines proved to lag a sim easily.
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	exploiting the system gaps is usually legal
[17:21]	Moon Metty:	hi OS
[17:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	SLPP, from what I understand, is a matter that the code is unmaintainable.
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	hi OS
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	if it is not explicitly prohibited it is legal
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, post the SLPP rotation related jira number for posterity. I don't remember what it was.
[17:21]	xstorm Radek:	explote
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	exploit*?
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Somebody screwed up that area, and it wasn't caught before a lot of content depended on it, so it needs new integers with correct code, that nobody wants to tackle
[17:22]	Arawn Spitteler freezes while he searches the Jira
[17:22]	Moon Metty:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	That would be my interpretation. If it isn't explicitly prohibited in some policy statement, and is not prevented by the hard-coded limitations of the SL simulator, then it is allowed.
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	so it disapears for a split second every minute or so Kitty?
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	Asking me?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	thanks Moon
[17:24]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	well if the code is a hard solution surely making a rule explicitly prohibiting these and a method of identifying the problem ones is a good quick fix
[17:24]	xstorm Radek:	so there is no true rule to stop this ?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	not yet xstorm, that I know of
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	I see it disappear every now and then Kitty, is that what you (everyone) see
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I'm pondering how to prevent it via logic on the simulator
[17:25]	Ardy Lay:	I see it disappear in get replaced
[17:25]	Moon Metty:	integrate the number of temp objects over time
[17:25]	Charlette Proto:	OK me too, so it gets re-rezzed continually
[17:25]	Moon Metty:	it it's over a certain level, cut back on the allowed prims
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	that is another problem for the server
[17:26]	xstorm Radek:	if it gives a fake reading to the set numbers of prims on the land that it is on is that not in a way hacking the server ?
[17:26]	Ardy Lay:	Yes, it gets re-rezzed
[17:26]	Kitto Flora:	What was temp-rez really for? Bullets? Anything else?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	yes, bullets and things that you might want to create a lot of but don't want returned to your inventory
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	imagine getting all your bullets returned to your inventory
[17:27]	Moon Metty:	yes, i use temp as trashcan
[17:27]	xstorm Radek:	if a person is just permited 117 on a 512 sqm and they can fit 300 prims on the same 512 sqm what is that then ?
[17:27]	Opensource Obscure:	also, used as art tools/installations/performances
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	it happned to me. i forgot to make them temp:)
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	well bullets may as well be a pain I'd applaud it, don't see any point for shooting in Second Life™
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	the temp-on-rez limit is pretty high, mostly to not break that magic wand made by... what's his name
[17:28]	Arawn Spitteler sets vehicles temp, so as not to get them back from Asshole Lines
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	unless we were to shoot the residents with temp rezzed homes
[17:28]	Moon Metty:	is that limit per parcel?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	I had set it lower originally, but it broke StarAx's magic wand
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	and unfortunately at the time Starax's wand was the coolest thing around.
[17:28]	Rex Cronon:	charlette, if u don't like to play with guns in sl that doesn't mean there arent others that do:)
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Starax's wand is a good example of creative use of temp-on-rez. it would basically rez temp objects as special effects (keyed off of ambient chat words)
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler notes that Moon was first to find http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93 : If the code maintainability were repaired, the actuall fix would be faster than talking about that one.
[17:29]	Charlette Proto:	Rex that was my opinion and I'm a social Second Life™ player and shoot in more suitable environments cause in SL it is a joke as far as performance goes
[17:29]	xstorm Radek:	a privet sim owner can ban the temp rezzers from there sims right ?
[17:30]	Charlette Proto:	what about disabling temp rezz from non-combat simes
[17:31]	Rex Cronon:	u could control these temp rezers without affecting guns:)
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, that would break so much content that it is impossible to accomplish.
[17:31]	Rex Cronon:	guns ususally r held in hand:)
[17:31]	Charlette Proto:	eg making performance critical sims where things like that can't exploit the system causeing commercial operators etc problemse (as an excuse)
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	right, we could crack down more on temp-rezzers that are not worn, perhaps
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	The people who use these things Are wrecking their own performance. The problem really comes when they use them on a shared sim, like mainland. Then the neigbors suffer. If there were cpu use limitation by parcel, then temp-rez users would only wreck themselves.
[17:32]	xstorm Radek:	then find a way to have the temp rezzer give a true reading of the prims on the land
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Temp Rezzers as attachments only?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	another feature is that they stay around for a long time and rez in a continual stream
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	that could be detected on the server -- the "integration" of the temp effect, as someone put it earlier
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	I'm thinking of deploying new sims that are performance critical for those that want this kind of usage rather than tem-rezz enabled
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	yes, or a 2nd order filter
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	what do you mean by "2nd order filter" Moon?
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	Then attachment-only idea is a good one
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	well, it's basicly an itegrator with dampening
[17:33]	Opensource Obscure:	a continual temp rezzer is often used as a workaround to existing limits .. i think cracking down on that kind of use would be accepted by the users
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	you have to easy back the integration
[17:34]	xstorm Radek:	and as you see it is starting to make lag
[17:34]	Moon Metty:	to get back to normal when the rezzing is over
[17:34]	Charlette Proto:	the attachment only idea is good I think but don't have the faintest idea myself
[17:34]	xstorm Radek:	now add 100 of them in 1 sim
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	u could also, specifiy that an object that is not attached, can't rezz another object that has more than 15 links:)
[17:35]	xstorm Radek:	the mono system will get lag down so much it will make problems
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	or more links than the rezzer:)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	again, I shrink from ideas that would break tremendous amounts of "legit" content
[17:36]	Kitto Flora:	Mke that 'cant TEMP-rez...'
[17:36]	Charlette Proto:	couldn't these temp-rezzers be deployed for push-prim griefing as well?
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	where "legit" in this case means cool stuff that doesn't fall into the "bad"category
[17:36]	Arawn Spitteler recalls a related concept of preloaded objects, to save sim resources, but that's a different discussion: Attachment only would be similar to the no-scripts unless sat on restraint. I ran this up the flag pole, today, but have no alutes yet
[17:37]	xstorm Radek:	well in a way it can be seen as a griefing tool
[17:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Push Prim Griefing?
[17:37]	xstorm Radek:	if this makes it so people can not move in a sim do to the lag then thats griefing
[17:37]	Rex Cronon:	similar things have already been used 4 griefing:(
[17:38]	Charlette Proto:	I can imagine this being a whole new season of mass prim attacks on sims that currently just don't support enough rezzing capability eg my home
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	"preloaded objects". I've considered that one too (I think) although in the form of a memory of recently rezzed things... keeping them in memory for a period in case they are rezzed again.
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler'd preload, in case it has to be rezzed quickly
[17:39]	Moon Metty:	hmmm
[17:39]	Charlette Proto:	eg you can't grey-goo in sims that don't have free prims like most of the mainland parcels, but this would open up a whole can of worms
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	preload what Arawn? What specifically?
[17:39]	xstorm Radek:	what about a time limmit they can rez for a set number of times ?
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	I remember suggesting another application for preloadishness
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	All assets? (of course not) so which assets would be preloaded in particular?
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	preloaded before rez? Or are you talking about the preload before crossing region boundaries?
[17:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Primarily, bullets that shoot when asked for, rather than agfter the Asset Servers tal to distant asset servers
[17:40]	Rex Cronon:	whoever maded this thing, could have made it so it rezzed only when a avatar is withing 10m of it, that would reduce lage considerably
[17:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	You know, there are so many zillion griefing vectors possible, that I'm wondering whether there isn't some fundamental negative feedback missing: people should pay (in a technical sense) for the magnitude of their effect on others.
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	agree morgaine
[17:41]	xstorm Radek:	true
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	even the script whores should be counted for their LSL/MONO load on the server
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	atm the more stupid the resident the more radars etc they wear
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, that's right, I scripted my since borked carpet, to change shape, and felt that contained prims should be invokable on a "make me look like this," basis. That would be codewise isimilar to Preloaded Objects
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	THis auto-rez system here is a mild example. The worst one I have seen was a dead tree that rezzed a cloud of flying crows.
[17:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Everything. Add all effect to the negative feedback.
[17:42]	xstorm Radek:	or zombies
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	here's a question... suppose we came up with a clever scheme for breaking temp-rezzers... things that tried to maintain a bunch of content for long durations so that it appears non-temp...
[17:42]	xstorm Radek:	let us not forget what happen with all them damn zombies last time
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	that would piss off a fairly large crowd
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	so, how best to handle the fallout of trying to ship something like that?
[17:43]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe - but they'd get little sympathy Andrew.
[17:43]	Ardy Lay:	... the something-for-nothing crowd.
[17:43]	Rex Cronon:	what zombies? the particle kind?
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	OK onece the same thing rezzed a 100 times it is counted as permanent and can't rezz
[17:43]	Moon Metty:	but that crowd tries to circumvent existing rules
[17:43]	Moon Metty:	causing problems
[17:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Riules are to be accepted as a challenge to the intellect
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	no Charlette, I've seen chainguns that rez 600 bullets per minute
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	u could do that, but u might have to offer something else
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	gosh guns again amidst all these cultural issues with high school shootings you want guns in Second Life™
[17:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	What does the Grey Goo Fence do about Temp Rez Objects?
[17:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	The problem isn't temp rezzers themselves (they can be used sensibly). The problem is when used excessively, without any kind of negative feedback to their source.
[17:45]	Rex Cronon:	guns already are in ins sl
[17:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Guns in SL? Better here than there.
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	I havea gun that shoots 12-prim bullets
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	if you rez too fast the GGF will make the rezzez fail
[17:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	<--- originally electrical engineer, I know about feedback / control systems :-)
[17:45]	Charlette Proto:	I'm sooo fed up with this millitary/gangsta obsession in Second Life™
[17:45]	xstorm Radek:	and i have seen a rezzer go bad and start to rez up to 1000 prims on 1 512sqm its not funny to see
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	but just below the fence you can rez a lot of objects
[17:45]	Charlette Proto:	BTW is there a VW without weapons - thinking of moving to one of those
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	vote with your feet
[17:46]	Rex Cronon:	lively:)
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	gone long ago Rex
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	you rea gun obsessed and miss on the news
[17:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: make your own world. Opensim is still in early stages, but it'll be there in time.
[17:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll join you :-)
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	IMHO any VW worth hanging out in (enough freedom) will include the freedom to create things like guns.
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	I will perhaps
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	i know is gone, and expecially because of that there can't be guns there;)
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler wants Open Grid because of SVC-2931
[17:47]	Simon Linden:	Backing up a level, having a 'no temp rez' region-wide setting is possible, but would break stuff. Would it be woth having?
[17:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lot of kiddies obsessed with guns and showing off their might, I know what you mean.
[17:47]	xstorm Radek:	i had Moon in the red *GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 23:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	and i am not obssesed with guns
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	That's a good question Simon. Any estate owners here have an opinion?
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	For that matter, all adult avatars should be sent to the Teen Grid
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	Would you use that switch?
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	I am Rex - abhore them
[17:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrews: guns are fine. It's excessive use that isn't. As for non-excessive but inappropriate use, that's what per-user griefing controls are for.
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	is going to take a while to AR all these temp rezers
[17:49]	Kitto Flora:	I'd say that region owners who parcel and rent land - and have no-push on - therefore dont expect gun play, would welcome ability to turn off temp-rz, to prevent renters lagging the sim.
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	I think half of us are talking about guns and the other half about temp rezzers
[17:49]	xstorm Radek:	when some one rez a 600 to 1000 prims that many times i say it is griefing
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: call the table to order :P
[17:50]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:50]	Charlette Proto:	my point is that the whole issue we are discussing would not be a problem if we didn't support guns everywhere that is non-combat sims
[17:50]	Simon Linden:	Table, get to order!
[17:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[17:50]	xstorm Radek:	the gun rezzer is not the same type
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	there are other varieties of content that would be affected
[17:50]	Moon Metty:	guns don't kill people, bullets do
[17:51]	xstorm Radek:	bullets do not stay doing it
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	redro!!!! need to chat bacwards at gun users
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	my experience has been that you can't imagine (by yourself) all the ways that any feature will be used
[17:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can't disallow "guns", because "guns" are not an object type. And the technology used in guns is used in a million other things.
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	what about farting bullets
[17:51]	xstorm Radek:	a person use a gun but do not do it 24/7
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	I don't think we can really tell technically what's a gun vs. a crow-generating tree, at least without having a human look at it
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	i am with morgaine
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	I'm sickened with farting bullets
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: True
[17:52]	Ardy Lay:	Charlette, you must get some really childish visitors.
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	But you can tell where they are welcome and where not welcome
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	We could have a region-wide speed limit, which would make bullets useless, but it would affect other stuff (snowballs?)
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	that temp rezer certainlly it wasn't a gun:)
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	The crow rezzing tree looked like a neet object. BUT it really loaded the sim down.
[17:52]	xstorm Radek:	particals are not a rezzer
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	so no rezzers on commercial sims and we are kewl to trade
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Right, there are some really cool things using temp rezzing, and would be nice to use if they didn't slow stuff down
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	what about the tree that makes temp-on-rez falling leaves?
[17:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Here's a simple solution to the gun problem: cost feedback. If you set your "Being hit with an object cost" to infinity, and a person fires a gun at you, then something important happens to that person or to his ability to do the same to others.
[17:53]	xstorm Radek:	particals can do leafs on a tree
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Even non-temp rezzers - there was a brand of wave generators that were killing sims back when we switched to Havok 4
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	(you can do the same thing by making the leaves non-temp, but popping back to the top of the tree to fall again)
[17:53]	Ardy Lay:	I made my leaves particles because I could see the tree being a problem to the neighbors.
[17:53]	Moon Metty:	that takes a lot of bookkeeping Morgaine
[17:53]	xstorm Radek:	we have partical flowers
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	yeah like my neighbour's tree, the whole sim is sooo lagged by this bit of pretty Japan
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Any news of Rouge City?
[17:54]	Charlette Proto:	and the dude pervs on me all the time
[17:54]	xstorm Radek:	and will make all new content on the servers making more mono scripts used
[17:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Moon: in practice, people will only set their being-hit cost to an RP value, or to infinity.
[17:54]	xstorm Radek:	you can look at it under that light
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	temp-rezzers also require a timer, and timers keep the scripts alive. Not as bad as a listen() event...
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	I reall hat those 'too many listens' residents
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Rouge City? Kitto, should that ring a bell?
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	and they do it with freebie crap as well
[17:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	There is no better way to tackle gun kiddies than with a "Oh shit, now my gun doesn't work for an hour".
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	The XXX - adult ony new continent
[17:55]	Moon Metty:	:) true Morgaine
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, no I haven't heard anything.
[17:55]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 23:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	you playing like you're shooting
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	in your little video game world
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	what a faggot
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	aren't you just a faggot
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	that's really gay
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	You can be sure that any progress on Rouge City is going to have to wait for server-1.26
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	that is, all the features for making that possible are therein.
[17:56]	Simon Linden:	Kitto - I don't think there's been any new announcements
[17:56]	Charlette Proto:	all depends where you live and spend time in Second Life™ and weather there is any practical value for the given user in temp-rez I suppose
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Surely is just a zoning thing. Just needs enforcement - no new code.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I think there is a medium amount of code required to support it.
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler suggests using <alt>20, for a multiple line Gesture: Peoiple worn listeners, is there a way to implement an OwnerListen, or a Jira for that?
[17:58]	xstorm Radek:	i think private sim owners can ban people using temp rezzers if they make problems for the sim ?
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	Private sim owners tell em to C&D
[17:59]	Charlette Proto:	that should be the basis of deploying mission critical sims Storm
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	The problem is finding the offending object
[17:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enforcement requires people, and people cost money and don't scale. Technical solutions are always better.
[17:59]	xstorm Radek:	there is now tools that spot temp rezzers
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to leave on-time today. I need to be somewhere within the next hour.
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Technical solutions in SL seem to be the most expensive of all. :)
[18:00]	xstorm Radek:	ok :-)
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	true the sim needs a switch supported by mission statement and rules in case a new way is found (loophole)
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	well thank you Andrew
[18:00]	Moon Metty:	and Simon
[18:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew and Simon
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	Bye bye all
[18:00]	xstorm Radek:	bye Andrew and thank you
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	thank you everyone I must run too, got a 6pm
[18:00]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks .. bye
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run too -- thanks all for coming
[18:01]	xstorm Radek:	bye every one
[18:01]	Moon Metty:	did you have fun?
[18:01]	Patty1 Rosca:	bye
[18:01]	Miles Corinthian:	it was exremely interesting
[18:01]	Moon Metty:	:D
[18:01]	Moon Metty:	good to hear
[18:01]	Miles Corinthian:	abd, I actually understood some..lol