User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 05 12

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[10:57]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon :)
[10:57]	Erinyse Planer:	hi moon hi somon
[10:57]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[10:57]	Moon Metty:	hi Erinyse
[10:57]	Erinyse Planer:	whats with all the sound effects im hearing?
[10:58]	Moon Metty:	hey Qie
[10:58]	Qie Niangao:	heya Moon, Erinyse, Simon :)
[10:58]	Erinyse Planer steals simon's hat to use as a prop at her club before nodding to qie
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	hehe
[10:59]	Youri Ashton:	hi hi
[10:59]	Erinyse Planer:	hey squirrelll you look as ravishing and ravish-tempting as always
[10:59]	Youri Ashton:	euhm.. i suppost to be at Lexie Linden's meeting but i cant tp there for some reason
[11:00]	Moon Metty:	sometimes it helps if you tp to another place first
[11:00]	Erinyse Planer:	she might be in one of the volunteer sims...
[11:00]	Youri Ashton:	could try that yeah
[11:00]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, don't know about that one ... I haven't heard of any system problems that would block TPs right now
[11:00]	Youri Ashton:	yeah, tping is bad today
[11:00]	Erinyse Planer:	yep shes in the mentors sim
[11:00]	Youri Ashton:	lagg aswell tho
[11:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I hate it when two good offices hours overlap.
[11:00]	Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat
[11:01]	Erinyse Planer:	unless youre an official LL mentor you cant get in
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	im on the translator team
[11:01]	Erinyse Planer:	you'll have to ask her to add you to the access list then
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	hey Rex :)
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Let's give it another few minutes for people to arrive and then we can start
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi moon
[11:02]	Squirrel Wood:	How dare y'all crash me shadows? :p
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	ahhh, i don't see anybody around, nor do i see the table and its sits
[11:02]	Latif Khalifa:	hi all ;)
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Things were kind of slow to rez for me when I first logged in
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Hi Latif
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	i have a question regarding: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails:	yikes
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	OK Rex, let's dive in ... I haven't heard of that one, but I"m reading it now
[11:04]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oh, I encounter someone using the exploit a couple months ago and I could not figure out how to help the victom.
[11:04]	Erinyse Planer:	hmm that one shoulda been filed as sec
[11:04]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Now I know.
[11:04]	Uni Ninetails:	isnt that similar to the one used to terrian edit a persons parcel?
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	i would like if that is going to be "fixed"?
[11:05]	Erinyse Planer:	simon can you bounce that one to sec so we dont get people learning how to be griefers please?
[11:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Now that I know, I can defentelly AR the abuser.
[11:05]	Stickman Ingmann:	I agree, that's probably better at SEC.
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I'm not sure that's really a bug ... isn't it just permissions being persistant?
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	How should it behave?
[11:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Reset on rezzing.
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	i read it and you cannot grief peopke with this any more than you can by convicing theme to sit on something
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	i will also like to know how "safe" is somebody from ARs if they implement/selll such a thing?
[11:06]	Stickman Ingmann:	It was sitting that granted the permission -- so standing up should remove it without explicitly clicking "ok" to a permissions dialog.
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	its not a big deal, its just permission animate
[11:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Latif, untill you are a victom.
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	on rezzing it should loose perms, at the very least
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	and that is autp gratend on sit
[11:07]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwold, many people are griefed by convincing then to sit on something
[11:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	this is the problem, someone has perminiate animate permission on you. No way to kill it.
[11:07]	Erinyse Planer:	nto sure but either way thats an exploit and its being broadcast to anyone that finds it
[11:07]	Moon Metty:	it's bad in combination with deformers ..
[11:07]	Lupey Severine:	but by sitting on something you are basicly giving permission to be greifed
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	if u click on it by mistake u also can sit on it:(
[11:07]	Lupey Severine:	in terms of what the sat on item is capable of
[11:07]	Nexii Malthus:	What about a Undeform button below Stop All Animations?
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I'd have to confirm that rezzing is clearing other state ... we save and restore script state, for example, a lot so I'm not sure what the expected behavior is here
[11:08]	Techwolf Lupindo whispers: Ah, but what about those invisiable click towers?
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	thad button doesn't work
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Backing up, is this anything new?
[11:08]	Nexii Malthus adds idea to list
[11:08]	Latif Khalifa:	no its not new
[11:08]	Erinyse Planer:	simon ive not seen this to this extent beofre but yeah thats defianlly a griefing exploit and im real uncomfortable with osmeone able to take over my avi like that
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	it seems u also give the perm to get camera info and to change its position
[11:09]	Lupey Severine:	then dont click on anything you dont know what it does
[11:09]	Qie Niangao:	well, tbh, permanent animation permission is not such a big deal, compared to debit permission, which also can't be canceled. And at least llStartAnimation only works within a sim (and maybe its neighbors)
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	ok, that's good to know. Regressions might be a real crisis, but if it's been around for a while it's not a stop-everything-fix-it-now problem
[11:09]	Erinyse Planer:	lupey eaiser siad then done
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	if something invisible covers u click without knowing
[11:09]	Lupey Severine:	Alt + ctrl + t
[11:09]	Lupey Severine:	show invisible
[11:09]	Erinyse Planer:	maybe not... but it should devinately get moved from vwr to sec
[11:09]	Lupey Severine:	fixes that right there
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	So in this case, the sitting AV is asked and grants the permissions, correct?
[11:10]	Qie Niangao:	sit would obviate the need to ask
[11:10]	Erinyse Planer:	not asked. their just stolen
[11:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	I suggest adding a prominent "Reset All Permissions" button in the bottom bar. Problem solved. (Assuming that agents have a list of objects that have permissions over them ... and if they don't, they should :P)
[11:10]	Stickman Ingmann:	Sitting auto-grants permissions. Standing doesn't remove it.
[11:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Simon, an aside for a sec: the topic at AW Gropies today was adding metadata descriptions to objects and scenegraphs to facilitate handicapped clients and use cases
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	sadly u can;t always stay in alt+ctrl+t:(
[11:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	AW Groupies*
[11:10]	SC.2.1.A.TL5: hit by Hari Linden (Hari Linden)
[11:10]	Erinyse Planer:	hello hari
[11:10]	Lupey Severine:	If your going to have issues with invisible objects yes you can
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Not sure if that's relevant to physics or not, but I suspect it might end up being at some level
[11:11]	Moon Metty:	hi Andrew :)
[11:11]	Hari Linden:	hi all
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	Saijanai - that would be good. We really should do more for accessiblity features
[11:11]	Erinyse Planer:	lupey who says it has be invisible?
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	hi there
[11:11]	Moon Metty:	and Hari :)
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Hi, sorry I'm late.
[11:11]	Uni Ninetails:	oyoy
[11:11]	Lupey Severine:	what your proposing is a fix to a temporary issue that would creat inconveince for the whole
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	Hi Andrew, glad you made it
[11:11]	Techwolf Lupindo:	alt-ctl-t has an ecploit too. Just put a large invisiable follower on victom. They see nothing but red. :-)
[11:11]	Morgaine Dinova balances coffee mug with great skill to not spill a drop
[11:11]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Andrew
[11:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Andrew and Hari: Simon, an aside for a sec: the topic at AW Gropies today was adding metadata descriptions to objects and scenegraphs to facilitate handicapped clients and use cases
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think is right for a scripted object to keep permission forever
[11:11]	Erinyse Planer:	lupey what were saying is this is a grief attack that can cuase ALLOT of problems
[11:11]	Imaze Rhiano:	:P
[11:12]	Erinyse Planer:	since theres not an easy way to revoke its permissions
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	I can see that there's a good argument to revoke the permissions upon the un-sit action, but not sure if or what that might break
[11:12]	Qie Niangao:	right, but I'd prefer they start with a way to rid us of old debit permissions
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Andrew, we're discussing http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228
[11:12]	Nexii Malthus:	Client should have control over what permissions may be Auto,
[11:12]	Stickman Ingmann:	To be honest, I already thought permission was lost to the script when an avatar stood up.
[11:12]	Uni Ninetails:	How about Tools->view current permissions for avatar?
[11:12]	Nexii Malthus:	prevent Debit permissions from being able to be auto'd though, as its a critical permission
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	the object can ask if u want to allow it to keeep your persm
[11:12]	Erinyse Planer:	and i still REALLY think that with that script posted it really needs to be hidden under sec before we get lots of griefers using it
[11:12]	Lupey Severine:	Then creat a stop all animation button but a dialog box for sitting seems like a band aid for a bruise
[11:12]	Qie Niangao:	(Stick: me too.)
[11:13]	Latif Khalifa:	don't go all paranoid now, i don't want to grant persmissions every time i sit on a chair
[11:13]	Lupey Severine:	exactly
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler hurriedly reminds Simon and Andrew about SVC-22, SVC-93 and SVC-2931, lest they forget that the world is borked
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Permission control doesn't belong with third parties. It belongs to the target of the permission. That means a client needs visibility of who has permissions over them, and it means that the client needs to be able to revoke them at any time, from a list.
[11:13]	Nexii Malthus:	Make permissions only be auto-granted client-side, NOT server-side
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, hi Hari, and the unrezzed
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	Thanks Arawn, it's good to get the old familiar issues out
[11:13]	Stickman Ingmann:	Only certain permissions are auto-granted, as can be seen by that test case in the Jira. And only certain permissions are retained when standing up.
[11:13]	Stickman Ingmann:	The behavior is inconsistent among permissions.
[11:14]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Jira sujest reset on rezzing. This would work as HUD will not be broken as they get permissions to start with and allready rez objects has to request it. Dance balls.
[11:14]	Stickman Ingmann:	As in, permissions auto-granted by sitting are ALL removed by standing.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I wish we had a different word than "permissions" for this subject since these are distinct from copy/trans/mod permission system
[11:14]	Erinyse Planer:	well regardless of this is fix worthy or not... I'd really like this hidden ...
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Reset on rezzing is inadequate by itself. It's the target of the permission that needs to be in control.
[11:14]	NonSmokerGirl Tulip:	'emissions? '
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	right now perm to animate persists forever:(
[11:14]	Nexii Malthus:	Asset Permissions versus uh, Transient Permissions? idk
[11:14]	Erinyse Planer:	as someone that already has a handful of sl stalkers this freaks me
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa wishes AO meant animation overrider :)
[11:14]	Uni Ninetails:	submission ? XD
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	we can call it anim_perm
[11:15]	Techwolf Lupindo:	igmanaged someone playing a "FU" animation on a victom, even a admin, and can not tell where it is comming from.
[11:15]	Nexii Malthus:	There are many more permissions that could be covered here than the obvious use case animations, such as camera controls
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	ok, well, this sounds like this needs more attention and some discussion inside LL to figure it out. It's really more of a security issue than viewer, but at least it's not anything new
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: why are permissions not currently barrable by their targets?
[11:16]	Erinyse Planer immagined someone taking control of my cam while im with my family in order to find out who they are and victimize them... or worse play something while im with them that would insult them and make them think im doing it
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	the way that it works right now can lead to big problems
[11:17]	Latif Khalifa:	its a but far fetched... and not very common way to grief someone... requires a lot of steps, some of which requires "victim" to participate by sitting on things
[11:17]	Erinyse Planer:	ok with that said simon, PLEASE bump it to sec and lock it outta sight?
[11:17]	Latif Khalifa:	bit*
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	u can be tricked into sitting:(
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I think it should be possible for individuals to browse the list of LSL permissions currently in play in visible regions.
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	Camera Perms aren't taken back, when Standing?
[11:17]	Erinyse Planer:	not neccissarily
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't think Camera Perms look much likme a security issue, but could be a fun jape
[11:18]	Techwolf Lupindo saves the page...
[11:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Simon: the whole issue stems from lack of user control. Permissions granted should be visible to those who granted them, and revocable.
[11:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew++
[11:18]	Qie Niangao:	Andrew, why just visible regions? I'm worried about debit permission from distant realms.
[11:18]	Stickman Ingmann:	The issue ( http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228 ) is that animation playing and camera tracking permission isn't revoked upon standing after auto-granting on sit.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno if others should be able to browse ALL permissions that an object has handed out.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	By "should be possible" I mean -- we should add that capability
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	Qie, debit permission does not persist when script changes owner
[11:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	Agreed, this obviously is threatening to people so it needs attention
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	it seems that if a scripted object aquires anim_perm, u can take it into inventory and each time u rezz a new object it will still have those permissions:(
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa:	and debit permission can only be granted by an owner, so its non-issue in this context
[11:19]	Qie Niangao:	yes, that's a different thing... but it persists forever in the granted script
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	But, doing some automatic permissions cleanup would undoubtedly break a lot of stuff.
[11:19]	Nexii Malthus:	Agreed
[11:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Qie, exactly, that's the point, i want my profit splitting vendor to keep debit permission forever
[11:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: first step is not automate anything, just make things visible, and allow manual revocation.
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	at least on rezz the animPerm should be cleared
[11:20]	Qie Niangao:	I'd be fine with that as long as I could find every prim I own, anywhere in-world.
[11:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Reset perms on rezzing seems to be a good soluction for now.
[11:20]	Moon Metty:	yes Tech
[11:20]	Eata Kitty:	Anim only has to live as long as you have an attachment or are sitting on the relavent object surely?
[11:20]	Nexii Malthus:	Rex, I use that "feature/bug" of permissions being kept on rez for various things, such as link permissions, say I had an object that should break apart when I rezzed it, without giving a dialog, even seen many products like this
[11:20]	Techwolf Lupindo:	non-object perms that is.
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Reset, as long as they aren't your HUD or an attachment
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder how much content would break if we were to reset LSL perms on rez.
[11:21]	Twisted Laws:	this has existed for quite some time that i'm aware of so unless more people have suddenly found a use for it, i've not seen it used for any worse than playing tricks on people
[11:21]	Stickman Ingmann:	Resetting permissions on rezzing still has the effect of potentially breaking content. Being able to see what nearby has your permission and revoke it individually would allow for a non-content breaking solution, if it was possible.
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could the Viewer view what perms have been accepted? I don't know if a viewer upgrade requires linden cooperation beyond that.
[11:21]	Qie Niangao:	so, the on-rez must be for objects not owned by the permission target.
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	yes, if u r the owner i don't think is anythig wrong to keep its animPerm on rez
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	that might not be too bad of an idea -- remove LSL permission bits on any perms that don't belong to the object owner.
[11:22]	Stickman Ingmann:	I like that solution.
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you are the owner, who gave you such a thing, as is so creative?
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	or on rez it could ask the person whose animPerm it has if that person is ok to still giving them
[11:23]	Erinyse Planer:	well you oculd even limit the number of permissions an object could have... what terrifies me is that this script doesnt even list all the perms you can gain automatically i dont think. if someone were to take over one or two it would be annoying, but when they can virtually control your avi remotely thats terrifiying
[11:23]	Qie Niangao:	well, the problem is attachments, Arawn; you really don't want to have to re-grant perms each time they rez.
[11:23]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Long term soluction is to be able to view who/what has permisions and be able to re-volk it, including all objects in non-owner inventory to stop re-rezzing attacts.
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	sadly not doing anyting has the potential to lead to big problems:(
[11:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	qie, attachment get auto-granted anyway.
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	"All objects in non-owner inventory" is many terabytes of data to look at :)
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tech: why "long term"? That's actually very easy to implement! I suggest it be made #1.
[11:24]	Erinyse Planer:	*giggles* andrew making that change you jsut said and doing sounannounced might help figure out who some of the big griefers are too. jsut see who sualks most at that change ....
[11:24]	Qie Niangao:	Tech: yeah, but i don't want the script to have to keep checking whether it has to llRequestPermissions() all over again
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	is a hack, so whoever uses it to collect perms right now can't reallycomplain is if fixed
[11:24]	Latif Khalifa:	clear permission bits on rez for avatars other than the owner seems to be a good solution
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	... and they aren't huds or attachments
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	My experience has been that whenever fixing a "bug" like this, there is someone out there using it as a legitimate feature.
[11:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Simon, for one avatar or avatar in range. But that is a long term soluction, getting rid of exploit may not need such a heavy expensive feature.
[11:25]	Qie Niangao:	well, they'll be owned, if huds or attachments, by the perms target
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I can't necessarily imagine what that content is... the Residents are too creative.
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	yes true Andrew, I don't think this is critical isue
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	In any case, it's not pratical to search non-rezzed inventory items and alter them
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	there were many bugs that had legitimate uses but where still "fixed":(
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	So, if I were to just "fix it" then it would fail when passed to QA -- they'd report all this content broken.
[11:26]	Qie Niangao:	actually, I think in addition to on-rez... why shouldn't standing revoke the auto-granted sit perms? I was so sure that it *did*
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: agreed. That's why simply allowing user visibility and revocation is much better, it doesn't break anything except for those who abuse it for griefing.
[11:26]	Erinyse Planer:	i think theres ways to limit out the unscruplous uses of these features without breaking too much content..
[11:26]	Lupey Severine:	why not just add a revoce permissions/stop animation toggle in the menu
[11:27]	Erinyse Planer:	but either way... if people are using scripts like that example..... something DOES need done
[11:27]	Lupey Severine:	wouldnt that be simpler and less intrusive
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	morgaine, revocation migh not work, imabing somebody rezzes a few hundreds of the, u have to revoke it for each one:(
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: they would all be stopped
[11:27]	Nexii Malthus:	I still think auto-granting of permissions should be in control of the client, like a sort of setting/preference
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	People who teleport to church, from pole dancing, without standing first, brought theTools menu in to disrepute
[11:27]	Stickman Ingmann:	I think we already hit the solution on this. Andrew, how hard did you say it would be to view permissions granted -- kinda like gestures or something -- and revoke them individually?
[11:27]	Latif Khalifa:	we cannot have preference for every single thing lol
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	" remove LSL permission bits on any perms that don't belong to the object owner." On rezzing. I think that the best soluction. I cna't think of any reason for non-owner object to have perms on rez.
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hit the big button: Reset All Non-Owner Permissions.
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	somebody an keep on rezzing the, u have o revoke for eah one ezzed:(
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	No you don't.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	It is "nigh impossible" to add anything to the SL client user interface these days.
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwold, attachments have legitimate reason to keep permissions
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	depend on how that button is mplemeted
[11:28]	Stickman Ingmann:	Hah. So revoking non-owner permission on rez looks like the best way to fix it?
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: shoot the people who are blocking you, simple :-)
[11:28]	Erinyse Planer:	attchments though with that system WOULD keep them
[11:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Latif, attaments are not non-owner.
[11:29]	Erinyse Planer:	theres no way i know of to wear an attahcment owned by anyone else?
[11:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Latif, note non-owner. :-)
[11:29]	Qie Niangao:	hmmm... what perms do my attachments have on somebody else?
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Attachments can be special-cased -- the simulator knows when an object is an attachment.
[11:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	andew, you can at least test how things will work using custom viewer interfaces
[11:29]	Twisted Laws:	i wrote a script that uses this... for bdsm so a slave sat on an object, the owner could then wear the object and force animaitons on the slave
[11:29]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwols, my hug attachment keep animation permission so my gf does not have to re grant me permission to hug her every time
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova purrs
[11:30]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Latif, I been "huged" quiet a few times by the same person, I have to grant everytime.
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler cant imagine Twisted's script isstill functional
[11:30]	Qie Niangao:	ah, ok. I grok that now.
[11:30]	Twisted Laws:	it works
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwolf, depends on the kind of hugger you have
[11:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	Pandora HUD is one example that retains perms
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Abranimations Couples Animator keeps the permission
[11:31]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Question, does the object keeps permissions for ONE avatar or can it "store" perms for many avatars?
[11:31]	Qie Niangao:	not entirely sure that's a good functionality, if we're worried about griefing. what if "hug" == "deform" ?
[11:31]	Erinyse Planer:	which is annoying when you have an ex that uses it on you
[11:31]	Twisted Laws:	1 script 1 avatar
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	See? I can just imagine the uproar of freeing the slave to revoke perms on the object. I'd get any bug fix rejected.
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	I understand it's one perm-target to a script
[11:31]	Nexii Malthus:	You have to use multiple scripts
[11:31]	Latif Khalifa:	Techwolf, 1 lsl script can keep 1 anim permission
[11:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Imaze is reusing animations perms on me without requiring new perms grant, so it's clearly retained.
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Of course the slave can revoke perms; Slavery is a freeedom of this world
[11:32]	Qie Niangao:	well right, it would break content. :(
[11:32]	Imaze Rhiano:	definately
[11:32]	Erinyse Planer:	well
[11:32]	Erinyse Planer:	there could also be a toggle added
[11:32]	Twisted Laws:	yes, if its used wrongly, abuse report it, most of us would figure out who was doing it or the lindens can look in the logs
[11:32]	Latif Khalifa:	i still don't think this is a huge problem
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	It wouldn't break content if the revocation were done by the user. The action would simply fail.
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	imagine the uproar if the peopole in rl believe that sl supports that lifestyle:)
[11:33]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah some things need to be done AR way
[11:33]	Qie Niangao:	(I still kinda think there's a bug here, if standing doesn't remove the auto-granted permissions)
[11:33]	Techwolf Lupindo:	At least let the client KNOW who is playing the animations.
[11:33]	Erinyse Planer:	"object (name) owned by (name) is requesting to perminately have (permm) rights over your avitar. grant or deny"
[11:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	most of the ordinary huggers that retain perms voluntarily respond to something like /99stop or similar to revoke
[11:33]	Latif Khalifa:	Aimee, exactly
[11:33]	Latif Khalifa:	Abranimations Couples Animator does that
[11:34]	Twisted Laws:	maybe log it to the secondlife.log so a person could look in hter to see if it is a problem
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	is not a huge problem until somebody starts playing with u, likeu were a uppet:)
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a Jira, for perms not ending, when the avatar stands or teleports? Teleporting from animated seats has been a problem for a long time.
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Erinyse: sounds like Vista. I don't think that's the right approach, last thing we need is more nagging screens.
[11:34]	Latif Khalifa:	Rex, I have been deformed before :)
[11:34]	Stickman Ingmann:	Speaking of which, does Stop All Animations in RC1.23 work now?
[11:34]	Erinyse Planer:	hence the toggleable
[11:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	I believe it does
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	u must have liked it, not everybody does thought:)
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't think it's ever hoped to work. Stop All Animations has always worked in the users viewer only
[11:35]	Qie Niangao:	well, stopping the anim is separate from revoking the perms. (embarrassingly enough, sometimes)
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	though*
[11:35]	Latif Khalifa:	Rex, I shrug, relog, and contunue with my life :)
[11:35]	Stickman Ingmann:	Arawn, I believe it was slated for 1.23 to be fixed.
[11:35]	Nexii Malthus:	I use an undeform gesture to undeform myself
[11:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	I believe stop all is supposed to be fixed in 1.23, though I haven't tested it specifically
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the LSL animation system well. I'd have to dig around to see how it works before I could speculate on how easy it would be to add various anim perms fixes.
[11:35]	Nexii Malthus:	I simply type /me cracks back into place.
[11:35]	Erinyse Planer:	trouble is relogging doenst alays revoke perms either
[11:35]	Nexii Malthus:	damn gesture lol
[11:35]	Erinyse Planer:	theres a couple dance balls for example
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have we an animation to test it with?
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	and if theat person follows u, u continue being animetade:)_
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	animated*
[11:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	If the exploit can't be stop/broken by a techinial mesure, then at least have the client be able to REVOKE granted permissions.
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	That's an interesting point about 'stop all animiations' ... it really shoud stop all animations of that AV on other viewers too. I assume it does that, but not certain
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, it's the user who should be in control of any perms over them
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I'm in favor of technical solutions in general, even if content breaks. But I tend to get overruled.
[11:36]	Qie Niangao:	*well*, retaining granted anim perms across login sessions is definitely a feature, not a bug.
[11:36]	Stickman Ingmann:	On the subject of deformations, I was working to put together a Jira so they'd be "officially" supported and we wouldn't have to play some 18 animations just for a full-body deform. Including such features as automatically reverting when the deformation stops playing.
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	is going to be really interestin if the lindens were to become somebodyes puppet:)
[11:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, the only possible technical solution is: revoke all permissions autogranted on sit when unsitting
[11:37]	Stickman Ingmann:	I had a few questions, though, about what was possible, so I didn't make some ridiculous request in the Jira.
[11:37]	Erinyse Planer:	speaking as a submissive's owner ild rather have to occasionally get readed to their colalrs then risk never being able to cut off someone abusing my avi
[11:38]	Stickman Ingmann:	I brought up the subject of deformations a few weeks ago and you were talking about having to transmit data to the server and back again every time the height was deformed. On a 30fps animation, that would be a lot of data.
[11:38]	Erinyse Planer:	rex good point. and not putting the lindens down, but i know a few that are sweet and unsuspecting enough they could probably be lured itno such a thing
[11:38]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Stickman, I wouldn't worry about that. Some of the jira i've seen went way beyiound rediculaious. :-)
[11:38]	Rex Cronon:	i wonder if that jira collects enogh voters if anuything isgoing to be done about it?
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've force animated a linden, but only to demo a since fixed bug
[11:38]	Nexii Malthus:	I'd find it silly to transmit "height"
[11:39]	Stickman Ingmann:	If positional information in the BVH was included, is there some way way have the avatar's shape determine the hip height, or a less intensive way of transmitting a changing leg length or something?
[11:39]	Moon Metty:	Andrew, did you find out anything about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12525 "llAttachToAvatar can cause parentless attachments that can subsequently crash the client when selected"?
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	There was a 'parentless attachments crash viewer' bug I fixed that went into 1.23, fwiw
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Moon, I haven't yet had time to try to reproduce VWR-12525. I tried once and failed.
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	i guess those that don't like to be "puppets" will add their votes:)
[11:40]	Moon Metty:	ok, it looks very similar to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6110
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Er... I tried to reproduce and failed. And haven't had time to get *back* to it.
[11:41]	Moon Metty:	Qarl made a fix for 6110 by making it impossible to copy a worn item, but obviously that wasn't enough
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	and the nice thing is that ucan't vote no on a jira, which is kind of ironic:)
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo lol "Love how they found the bug. Andrew is relentent to try out the object in question. lol"
[11:41]	Erinyse Planer:	i wish you could vote NO on a jira
[11:41]	Stickman Ingmann:	I've heard it mentioned that if there are more watchers than voters, the Lindens take that as a negative sign.
[11:41]	Nexii Malthus:	Yeah, why can't you vote down?
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Normally I'd investigate this anim grief mode and see if I could fix it, but lately I've been stuck when it comes to bug-fixing.
[11:41]	Erinyse Planer:	allot of stupid crap wouldnt get added
[11:41]	Erinyse Planer:	no offense andrew >.>
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sitting on three bug-fix branches, waiting for server-1.27 to branch.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Meanwhile I've got a large number of projects piling up that I can't complete fast enough.
[11:42]	Erinyse Planer:	well andrew can we move that to sec though ? plleaaase?
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is thee a grief mode, that belongs in hte SEC Jira?
[11:43]	Erinyse Planer:	the example script was a greif mode.... *Shudders*
[11:43]	Twisted Laws:	thats like outlawing guns because they can be misused...
[11:44]	Twisted Laws:	i have an example
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	In light of that bug, guess I should add some new features to these chairs...
[11:44]	Stickman Ingmann:	Haha
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	You want to change the bug's category from VWR to SEC?
[11:44]	Erinyse Planer blinks
[11:44]	Erinyse Planer:	andrew the one about the perms YES
[11:44]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, what projects are you working on
[11:44]	Twisted Laws:	thats why i don't sit much :p
[11:44]	Erinyse Planer:	read the script provided and that alone is why
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	i guess next time i come here i whould be very carefull where i sit:)
[11:45]	Erinyse Planer:	but the whole thing is a greifers how to
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's the Jira?
[11:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I saw a couple avatar manage to sit on others using these chairs.
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	is tooo late erinyse, the cat is out of the bag:(
[11:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, are people still able to animated you while muted?
[11:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	-d
[11:45]	Erinyse Planer:	probably rex but still....
[11:45]	Twisted Laws:	yes
[11:45]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Need two empty chairs. Usally when one see just one, they let ther other person have it.
[11:45]	Latif Khalifa:	heh griefier how to... lets not over exaggerate here
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Really Techwolf? That should crash the simulator fast -- sitting on attachments.
[11:46]	Erinyse Planer:	im not latif
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	We should be able to mute the animations of others, but that's a feature request
[11:46]	Erinyse Planer:	i KNOW a griefer tht trolls the jira for ideas
[11:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, that's what I was thinking
[11:46]	Nexii Malthus:	I know a bunch of griefers that look t JIRA for ideas
[11:46]	Erinyse Planer:	ones like this should be bounced to sec
[11:46]	Latif Khalifa does not know griefers
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	When I have ideas, I just jira them, and let the Griefers do all the work
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno... those who want the bug fixed... one way to accelerate its fixing it to get a rash of grief going.
[11:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[11:47]	Nexii Malthus:	Yes, thats how it works
[11:47]	Stickman Ingmann:	So we should all start griefing? Any "targets" you'd recommend?
[11:47]	Latif Khalifa:	you still need to convince people to sit on your object...
[11:47]	Imaze Rhiano:	lucky chair :P
[11:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, response to an AR report "but I was only doing it so it would get fixed, Andrew said so"
[11:47]	Uni Ninetails:	camp here for l$.... there
[11:48]	Qie Niangao:	heh. "sit on *this*!" :p
[11:48]	Latif Khalifa:	and you can already do many many things when sitting
[11:48]	Erinyse Planer:	latif tuck that script itno an elvator, a dnace pose ball anything
[11:48]	Nexii Malthus:	hehe lucky chairs indeed
[11:48]	Erinyse Planer:	anything a person doesnt usually even think about.
[11:48]	Twisted Laws:	it only works in the same sim, so its usually not a problem imho
[11:48]	Latif Khalifa:	move people into the sky... deform them, a lot of nasty stuff
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	i think that at least a lindesn should add a comment here that says somethng along the inesw hat if u do u se that for griefiend u might have troubles with your account:)
[11:48]	ATechwolf Foxclaw:	I just sat on someone.
[11:48]	Stickman Ingmann:	Techwolf, I don't know if that's necessary. :(
[11:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's easy to get people to sit on stuff, with a transparent prim over the seat of someone elses chair etc.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	No, griefers would be liable for their actions, but moving from VWR to SEC -- it is a grief issue, not really a SEC issue, unless people can have debit permissions stick
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hey, does SLX have a griefer's toy department?
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa:	no its just animation/camera
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	u don't have t sit is enough to click:(
[11:49]	Qie Niangao:	Arawn, just search for "darling" :p
[11:49]	Nexii Malthus:	Yeah Darling is a famous griefer toy creator
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	i meant a comment on the jira
[11:49]	Erinyse Planer:	i disagree andrew may i be allowed to try and convince you?
[11:49]	Latif Khalifa:	wow 50 minutes of sit permissin talk
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	"Sit here to allow passers by to tip you, just grant debit perms
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	just search the hud section, some might be:)
[11:50]	Erinyse Planer:	yep arawn :)
[11:50]	Moon Metty:	who gave you permission to sit Latif?
[11:50]	Qie Niangao:	well, not just sit in that case, Arawn... have to buy it for L$0 first.
[11:50]	Latif Khalifa:	Moon, geneva convention, and the universal declaration of humant rights? :D
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	some grief attacks can crash the SL client or server -- I think those get bumped up to SEC
[11:50]	Erinyse Planer:	and the fact they can animate yoru avitar or take your camera over at any time
[11:50]	Moon Metty:	phew!
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well you can either try to reform all of humanity, or you can give people control over the permissions they've granted. I think I know which is easier.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask some of the other LL devs to see what they think.
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anyhow, I don't know what the issue is, but vagueness of when perms are withdrawn is an undocumentation of feature.
[11:51]	Erinyse Planer:	and i could see this also with a slight change being able to gain ability to perminately "overhear" anything an avitar types in chat too
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	It will have the nice side effect of raising awareness of the issue internally.
[11:51]	Qie Niangao:	if can't add to viewer, could always make it an LSL function. :)
[11:52]	Erinyse Planer:	and cosnidering with a very few people i discuss really sensative rl stuff with...
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	i'd much rather lindens fix real security issues like now you can find your grid location of anyone participating in a group chat
[11:52]	Erinyse Planer:	to me anyone being able to take over my cam or listen in scares me and to me that IS a security issue
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	erinyse, thereis a way to send encrypted messages:)
[11:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: you can? How?
[11:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	yerp that needs fixing
[11:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, I'm not telling :D
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	What can they get from your cam? I don't know how to copy a keyboard, but maybe the control keys
[11:53]	Erinyse Planer:	theres huds and bots that do it
[11:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Need to code up a script that when it get the permissions, have the victom/linden camera permerelly pointed to there face really close. So all they see is there face covering the screen.
[11:53]	Erinyse Planer:	i came across a hud advertising that yesterday
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: if you're not telling then you're defending the griefers. Tell Lindens at least.
[11:54]	Latif Khalifa:	Morg, I filed a SEC-
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[11:54]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:54]	Twisted Laws:	that is tracking your camera, not controlling i think and the script is a bit wrong too...
[11:55]	Twisted Laws:	cause the script will return the same values if it had no permissions
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	there are other parts on the human body that coamera can be pointed at:)
[11:55]	Twisted Laws:	its printing constants
[11:55]	Latif Khalifa:	SEC-354
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Time is running down ... are there any other issues we might look at?
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I've got a 12:00 meeting after this so I can't stick around.
[11:56]	Erinyse Planer:	i filed a feature request for the ability to force rez someone elses avi
[11:56]	Stickman Ingmann:	So any news on sitting on attachments? Almost up to 200 votes: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-262 About how many would we need to get?
[11:56]	Erinyse Planer:	any chance of that being implimented in say 1.25? its collected several votes
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Forsced TP? For a Dom, that would be a thrid party viewer feature
[11:56]	Erinyse Planer:	force rez
[11:56]	Erinyse Planer:	not force tp
[11:57]	Erinyse Planer:	so that if you see a cloud you dont need to have them cosntnatly try edit appearance
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	We used to have sitting on attachments, but it was before my time.
[11:57]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Enrinyse, I like to have that also. Note this is a CLIENT site feature. Nothing is done to the other avatar. It a feature to re-download other avatars.
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	"forced rez" of an avatar? What does that mean?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	sitting on attachments will be a hard project
[11:57]	Stickman Ingmann:	Manual "deruthing" in the client?
[11:57]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, force a timeout and have the view re-download the selected avatar.
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Force Rez of someone not on line? Wouldn't that be Necromancy? I've onoly done that once, in world
[11:57]	Erinyse Planer:	andrew... say youre a cloud... I could go intot he pie menu select "re-rez" and it would re download your textures
[11:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	talk to Nyx about the force rez one
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	ability to sit on a attachment would be awsome:)
[11:58]	Stickman Ingmann:	So, gonna need a lot of votes on the sit-on-attachments thing. Good to knew Andrew, thanks.
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, force a reload of the avatar shape/texture data.
[11:58]	Aimee Trescothick:	he's working on all the avatar baking stuff at the moment
[11:58]	Erinyse Planer:	yep andrew
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, that might be Forced Rebake, or re-examine
[11:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Aimee, he also manages to break quite a few things :)
[11:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Andrew, note is not forceing anything on the other avatar. Just a client site re-download of avatar data.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	I think we should work on that. I dunno the current state of that problem.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	There might be two parts of that - refreshing the request for textures, and getting a re-bake
[11:59]	Erinyse Planer:	much simplere and kinder hen having to say "please edit appearance or rebake"
[11:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol yeah, but it's a pretty big omelette he's trying to make ;)
[11:59]	Erinyse Planer:	rebake usually fails to make you no longer a cloud to someone else
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	There is an assumption made in the simulator that the SL client will respond to certain message events.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	If the SL client does NOT repsond then we've got bugs -- and someone is using a non-standard viewer.
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Give th client a look again, feature?
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	if u turn particles off, u see the clouds people as eggs:)
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	If some people can see the AV ok, then it's a problem of some clients not getting the textures
[12:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	I suppose the problem there is that to force rebake the server will have to request their client to resend their baked textures
[12:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's going to need throttling
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	If everyone can't see the AV, then it's probably the baked textures missing or inaccessible
[12:00]	Erinyse Planer:	well theres allot of bugs in 1.23 that cuase you to become a cloud again to everyone else
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Such events can be detected and can be useful in identifying the avatar as a bot or something else.
[12:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	other wise you could force someone to a crawl by sending constant rebake requests
[12:00]	Erinyse Planer:	changing clothes can still do it
[12:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Simon, I like to have a way to force those clouds gone on MY side.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I think some of the avatar shape/texture update problem is related to such a case.
[12:00]	Stickman Ingmann:	Yeah, someone gave me a hairpiece that turns you into a wisp.
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	Aimee - true, we can't let that overload a client or be used for griefing
[12:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Why overload sitting again? That's just asking for problems. Make another action, a new one, designed for avatar-interaction.
[12:01]	Qie Niangao:	Aimee: good point.
[12:01]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, problem is the viewer sometimes does not get SetAvatarAppearance packet from ather avatars... you can force viewer to send it when going into appearance mode.... now the only way to fix when you don't see someone well is to ask them to go into appearance mode... i guess suggestion here is to have ability in the viewer to re-request avatar apparence data from the sim
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	A vehicle that simuylates walking, is that just a lot of scripting, or a new vehicle type?
[12:01]	Erinyse Planer:	exactly
[12:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	it shouldn't be necessary though as you should only need to send a request to the server at which point it goes "i've got those cached, here they are"
[12:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	We have too many things overloaded on the Sit action already, don't want more.
[12:02]	Erinyse Planer:	it would simply ask the sim for it... nto the other avatar. and if the sim doesnt have it it could fetch it ONCE
[12:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	if the other client isn't sending them to the server it's broke (or a bot ;)
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Right Latif. The simulator should probably handle that request, or else store the appearance data locally such that anyone can request it and get it from the simulator.
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	arawn, there NPVs that simulate walking
[12:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Make the avatar download of data timeout a lot shorter. Like 5 minutes or less.
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	npv=non physical vehicle
[12:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Currently, it is set to infiniate.
[12:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Aimee. bots a capable of sending appearance very well thank you very much
[12:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, thought you'd pick me up on that :D
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	I agree, there is work to do there. I'd love to work on it, but man my plate is full right now.
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Well, the good bots :)
[12:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	good bots are :) there's plenty out there that don't lol
[12:03]	Erinyse Planer:	I dont think it would be too hard to impliment andrew? and surely it would be less of a load then having everyone around thats nto rezzing do an edit appearance?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ok I've got to leave -- some bug triage meeting.
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[12:03]	Moon Metty:	ok Andrew :)
[12:03]	Erinyse Planer:	tc andrew
[12:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, simulator already stores that information... how else would someone teleporting in get the visial data on avatars anyway
[12:03]	Moon Metty:	see you soon
[12:03]	Uni Ninetails:	bai!#
[12:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	bug triage? Where?
[12:03]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Andrew!
[12:04]	Moon Metty:	and thank you Simon :)
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	There is work going on now with the texture pipeline, so hopefully it will improve the baked behavior as well
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: but they shouldn't need to, if they don't want. Eg. requiring a Braille client to send appearance data just to avoid being a cloud is not a good move.
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might bne an internal
[12:04]	Erinyse Planer:	tc simon
[12:04]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Simon :)
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	I also have to run -- thanks everyone for coming
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	yes, that's an internal triage meeting
[12:04]	Moon Metty:	bye!
[12:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Thanks, Simon, Andrew.
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Andrew,Simon :-)
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, its scalable, lets viewer on each client do the calculations :)
[12:04]	Twisted Laws:	bye
[12:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	byyye
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	bye
[12:04]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Later lindens.
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa:	bye simon
[12:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, it is a bit ugly that text based clients need texture code etc
[12:05]	Uni Ninetails:	time to go cyas!
[12:05]	Hari Linden:	this has been quite informative
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[12:05]	Moon Metty:	hehe, yes
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: sure it's powerful, but it needs a default that doesn't require every client to handle it when they're not visual clients at all.
[12:05]	Twisted Laws:	i added a comment to that jira 13228...
[12:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	maybe people using text based clients should be rendered as ASCII :D