User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 08 03

Transcript

[10:59]	Sindra Aquila:	hi simon
[10:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	HI simon
[10:59]	Jonathan Yap:	Hi Simon
[10:59]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The snowglobe group been working on some http textrue bugs.
[10:59]	Ashiri Sands:	hiya Simon and Andrew
[10:59]	Sindra Aquila:	hi andrew
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	Latif Khalifa:	hello all :)
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[11:00]	Sindra Aquila:	hi rex
[11:00]	Moundsa Mayo:	Hi gang
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi sindra
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi moundsa
[11:01]	Sindra Aquila:	hi
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Hello everyone
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Lessee, what's in the news...?
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... I have one announcement ... there's going to be a new 1.42 version built and rolled onto the Aditi beta grid today
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Some last minute fixes and code merges going in
[11:02]	Latif Khalifa:	did agentupdate before login finished got in?
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I think I'm unfamiliar with "agentupdate before login finished".
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Is there a jira # about it?
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Latif - yes, that's fixed
[11:03]	Latif Khalifa:	DEV-52152 / SVC-6027
[11:03]	4 breaks	libomv clients (and possibly gets corrupted in the process)
[11:04]	Latif Khalifa:	ok, cool
[11:04]	Sindra Aquila:	what was the news about snowglobe about?
[11:05]	Cummere Mayo:	ao on
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Other grid news is that texture downloading via http is being enabled
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know of any snowglobe news, do you Simon?
[11:05]	Sindra Aquila:	a bit earlier on in chat
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	No, I haven't heard anything, but also haven't been paying much attention to it
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, support for HTTP textures is already deployed in the simulators right?
[11:06]	Sindra Aquila:	from techwolf
[11:06]	Jonathan Yap:	There is Snow-792 and related snow-789
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	yes, it's just being enabled now
[11:06]	When using	http textures, the viewer re-bakes the avatar's textures over and over
[11:06]	Viewer crashes	trying to load http texture after 416 errors
[11:06]	Cummere Mayo:	not much going on there till things get a bit cleaned up in snow
[11:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The server is failing http textrues bakes.
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Are you saying the simulator support is going to be enabled? Or that it is already enabled and the viewer-side support will soon be enabled by default?
[11:07]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I think Oskar mentioned that http textures are going to be enabled on agni this week.
[11:07]	Latif Khalifa:	it's in the sim just disabled atm
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so server-side support for HTTP textures is a config setting.
[11:07]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah
[11:08]	Latif Khalifa:	it appears not to work for temp textures (bakes) so older viewers need to be patched to account for that
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	That re-bake texture loop is scary, that could really slow things down
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I heard that HTTP texture downloads is a feature in viewer-2.0, but is disabled by default.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I think 2.1 will soon have it enabled by default.
[11:08]	Jonathan Yap:	Http support is also in SG 1.x
[11:08]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I think 2.1 has it enabled
[11:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	http textues was a project three years in the making I think.
[11:09]	Jonathan Yap:	Message from Oskar: [11:08 AM] Oskar Linden: if by http service you mean http textures it was just pilot rolled to 30% of the grid today
[11:09]	Latif Khalifa:	cool
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned last week that there is a caching bug in viewer-2.X and 1.23.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	I'm petitioning within LL to get the fix added to a new viewer-1.23
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	since if it were fixed I'd expect to get some server improvement too
[11:11]	Sindra Aquila:	will thus affect snowglobe viewer as it now is?
[11:11]	Jonathan Yap:	You have to turn on http processing in your SG viewer
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	however the one person I really talked to about it so far was reluctant to update 1.23
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	I believe the 2.1 viewer has some code where it requests baked textures via the old method all the time, and others via http if it's available. Baked textures weren't available with the new pipeline originally, but there's efforts to fix that
[11:12]	Cummere Mayo:	i thought they are disconitnuing 1.23 anyways?
[11:12]	Moundsa Mayo:	Many 1.23 users still and for a while to come. Like, until we are FORCED away by LL or customer pressure.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	I could see the gears whirring in his head -- any extra reason to get Residents to move to viewer-2.X would be considered a good thing, even an easy to fix bug in 1.23.
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, that is correct, viewer 2.1 asks for bakes over udp only
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	However, I think everyone benefits if we fix it in 1.23, so that is what I'm going to lobby for.
[11:12]	Latif Khalifa:	since sim doesn't support temp texture downloads via http it seems
[11:13]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, that "sobjects" typo you told us about has been fixed in all branches of Snowglobe now.
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	I believe so, Latif ... I had a conversation with the viewer devs about it. Their original logic was going to be "ask via http. If that fails, try udp"
[11:13]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, the fixes are going into snowglobe rapidly
[11:13]	Porthos Dreddmor:	thank you andrew. becuase until 2.1 gets some user interface changes made, it is utterly useless
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, there isn't an external jira about thit caching bug, but I'm thinking about opening one up so we've got a forum that has info about it.
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	However since baked textures were stored in a different location, that would always fail, so the original request wasn't a good idea
[11:13]	Sindra Aquila:	thanks, i like it as the faster viewer
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Especially since there are some easy workarounds that could be implemented.
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	if u guys could take the best from all viewers and make them one:)
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa:	people that want to check out working http textures with 1.x style client should follow https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe #Automatic_development_snapshots
[11:14]	Latif Khalifa:	1.5.0 has fixed most of the bugs
[11:14]	Moundsa Mayo:	1.23 permits USER control of their own screen real estate - a critical resource for my work.
[11:14]	Sindra Aquila:	and 2.1 has a drawback or i cant find out how to set #lines
[11:14]	Areal Loonie:	does the caching bug have to do with selecting and deselecting?
[11:15]	Latif Khalifa:	erm https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe #Development_Snapshots
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Sindra - #lines of what?
[11:15]	Latif Khalifa:	that has both cache fix, and http texture download fixes
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	No Areal. The caching bug is not about selection.
[11:15]	Cummere Mayo:	will LL ever hold a forum about the ui?
[11:15]	Qie Niangao:	hmmm... maybe an SG should be the recommended update for http textures and cache-bug-fix, from 1.23
[11:16]	Sindra Aquila:	in snowglobe there is in chat a way to set #kines from fukk 40 bacj to 5, so the screen dont fill up in mouselook withm messages from things
[11:16]	Sindra Aquila:	that is very very anooying
[11:17]	Moundsa Mayo:	Andrew, if you do open a Jira about 1.23 upgrade, will you announce it in some group(s) so we can be supportive?
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	I think 1.23 update is not needed, as all these fixes will be coming to Snowglobe
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Moundsa, what groups would I announce in?
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	which is basically 1.23 + many fixes
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'll certainly mention it here.
[11:18]	Latif Khalifa:	and is Linden official viewer too
[11:18]	Moundsa Mayo:	OK, then at lest we who attend will know B^)
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Tell you what Moundsa, if I open the jira then I'll add you as a watcher.
[11:18]	Sindra Aquila:	is there no way to add this feature of wetting #lines in v2.X too?
[11:18]	Moundsa Mayo:	Very kind! TY
[11:18]	Sindra Aquila:	sett5ing*
[11:19]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew could you add me as well please?
[11:19]	Jonathan Yap:	Sindra, the line setting is still there, but it appears to be ignored
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	What is this "setting #lines" that we're talking about?
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Setting the # of lines in chat history or something?
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Sindra - it sounds like it's possible, but I have no idea if the viewer people are aware of it, where it might be in their priority, or if there's an open-source patch for it that could be included
[11:20]	Cummere Mayo:	showign the number of lines that spam your screen in mouselook andrew
[11:20]	Sindra Aquila:	it is the @lines setting in chat tab, it is very very important if use mouselook, else the screen fills up with stuff
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Those are the little things, however, that can really change if you like/hate the UI
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	in viewer 1.23 u go to prefereces/text chat /nr lines
[11:21]	Sindra Aquila:	it is main reason gamers dont like v2
[11:21]	Sindra Aquila:	me included
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... seems like an easy fix, and if it is the main thing stopping gamers from using 2.X then we should fix it.
[11:22]	Ashiri Sands:	could well be in debug settings... somewhere
[11:22]	Liisa Runo	tries to get back to topic and stop the client offtopic: Andrew. alst time you asked us to send you lag bombs. Already had fun with them?
[11:22]	Cummere Mayo:	well merchants and builders and club staff dont like it cause everything is so hard to get multiple windows open, and adding attachments to notices in this is a pita
[11:22]	Sindra Aquila:	yes, you see, if in mouselook you need a more or less clean screen to see things, not cluttered up
[11:22]	Jonathan Yap:	Andrew, at Oz's last meeting there was a long talk about chat, etc windows in v2. Latif is going to write up what changes people would like to see and mock up some graphics
[11:22]	Liisa Runo:	last time*
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to do some legwork on that #lines issue, to see if any of the viewer devs are planning on fixing it.
[11:23]	Sindra Aquila:	also restricted to lines without unnecessary pictures
[11:23]	Ashiri Sands:	what picture?
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's no more need to describe the problems of V2 UI. Philip made it clear that it failed to support any particular user group at all.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	No Liisa, I haven't been able to find time to play with any lag bombs yet.
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	btw. why can't i click on thing when in mouselook?
[11:24]	Sindra Aquila:	well how you call then thumnails, from objects talking, in mouselook all things need be really basic and restricted to small portion of screen say 3-5 lines as can be set in snowglobe, else gamers will shun that viewer for dead sure
[11:24]	Jonathan Yap:	Morgaine, but Oz is going to take a proposal to project managers, once Latif has written it up; I guess you missed that meeting?
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	We'd have to change the name to mouseclick, Rex :)
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jon: yep
[11:24]	Rex Cronon:	?
[11:25]	Cummere Mayo:	when was that? I would have LOVED to have been there
[11:25]	Cummere Mayo:	:-/
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jonathan: so what proposal is that, and how does the community assist in making it?
[11:25]	Ashiri Sands:	oh, i see what you mean Sindra
[11:26]	Jonathan Yap:	The proposal was how to revamp how chat and associated windows are handeled
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	i would expect that even in mouselook when i right-click on something to see the pie showup:)
[11:26]	Sindra Aquila:	yes, it is not possible to play decent game with v2
[11:27]	Latif Khalifa:	when is 1.42 pilot roll scheduled?
[11:27]	Liisa Runo:	today?`
[11:27]	Jonathan Yap:	People interested in improvements to the v2 chat window system should read this Oz's OH transcript: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Oz_Linden/Office_Hours_Archive_2010-08-02
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Definitely not today. 1.42 is up on aditi now.
[11:28]	Cummere Mayo:	ty jonathan
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	we have to write a jira for it:)
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Jonathan
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Let me see if the schedule is mentioned in any of my emails.
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	do we know when?
[11:29]	Cummere Mayo	wonders how hard it would be to get svc-5993 working and wonders why its being shot down by alexa
[11:29]	Make group	media permission apply to group-set, not just group-deeded land
[11:29]	Moundsa Mayo:	Latif, I WAS listening earlier. I'll try SG as soon as I can.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	The pilot of 1.42 is currently planned for Aug 18th. We'll see if that schedule holds.
[11:29]	Jonathan Yap:	Speaking of Alexa, her OH was cancelled yesterday because she announced they are moving to jira4
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Moundsa , Robin just fixed the remaining issues, please download 1.5 SG in about an hour when the auto build system catches up at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe #Development_Snapshots
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	what is jira4?
[11:30]	Jonathan Yap:	and that various dev groups will become more visible in the jira system
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	new version of the jira database system rex
[11:30]	Cummere Mayo:	its actually a little easier to use imo
[11:30]	Moundsa Mayo:	TY, Latif.
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	so what will happen will the collected votes fore jiras? will they be erase:(
[11:31]	Liisa Runo:	the old jira will stay as it is, just cant post new stuff to it anymore
[11:31]	Cummere Mayo:	aprently anythign with 30+ votes gets transfered, everything else *poof*
[11:31]	Jonathan Yap:	The subject of votes came up at Oz's meeting -- he said votes were basically ignored
[11:32]	Jonathan Yap:	ignored, that is, for determining what is to be worked on
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	i have to say that looks like a very good way to brush aside all(a lot of) the existing jiras:(
[11:33]	Liisa Runo:	The new and clean jira sure is needed. Current one is very messy and full
[11:33]	Moundsa Mayo:	Votes should come into play when pressing impacts of defects are about equal.
[11:33]	Cummere Mayo:	maybe but they could easily import relevant issues
[11:33]	Qie Niangao:	I went through yesterday and re-opened most of my jiras that had gotten closed for lack of progress.
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	who and how decides what is relevant?
[11:34]	Liisa Runo:	me
[11:34]	Cummere Mayo:	well i figure if soemthign has several votes and a couple lindens pressing for it ...
[11:34]	Latif Khalifa:	i think they closed all jiras that didn't have updated "affected version" field
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Alexa said that the old stuff is valuable and would be retained. We discussed that specifically.
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	u mean u will read each and every jira and all the comments attached to each one:)
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	what does "retained" mean?
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Migrated to Jira4
[11:35]	Rex Cronon:	"migrated"? how?
[11:35]	Latif Khalifa:	brb, rebuilding snowglobe 1.5 from trunk
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: well they're certainly not going to migrate manually. That would take years.
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	sometimes during migration thing quite usually get lost:(
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I assume they will have some script for copying one item from one jira db to the next.
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	, things quite usually*
[11:37]	Porthos Dreddmor:	if they are jsut updating the system they shouldnt need to have a script. theres one included
[11:38]	Andrew Linden	is torn on the jira migration issue and auto vs manual migration
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	we know that the pile of bugs needs lots of cleanup
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	one way to do it is to manually migrate some subset
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	the rest will eventually get re-entered.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	just like many bugs get duplicate entries.
[11:40]	Ashiri Sands:	and many of the duplicates just confuse the search process ≪⁕⁔⁕≫
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	On the other hand, many bug reporters contientiously try to look for dupes when entering new bugs.
[11:40]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yep. Typically tht takes teh longest part of a Jira posting.
[11:40]	Ashiri Sands:	Perhaps reject a jira entry if the summary is too vague?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, if we did a default auto migration of everything then we'd have the same size mess right from the start
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	the manual transition will force Alexa and others to do some cleanup along the way
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	then a big pile of small bugs will be left behind and will have to eventually be re-entered.
[11:41]	Porthos Dreddmor:	yeah but on the other hand there will be a LOT of bias in what gets transferred
[11:42]	Porthos Dreddmor:	and ive already seen ALLOT of evidence some reporters get all their jira's dismissed out of hand
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, and we'll end up with fewer documented bugs than there are... and more than we can fix before jira4 becomes a mess of equal size.
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	this doesn't look so good:(
[11:42]	Qie Niangao:	well, reading that Oz office hour transcript, it's amazing any jiras are looked at, ever
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Don't mind me... I'm just weary of wrangling jira sometimes.
[11:43]	Cummere Mayo	notes she is one of those whose jiras all got closed under the excuse of migration ... even some being atively worked on
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Fixing bugs can go much slower than finding them, especially wnen there is a very large group of people discovering them ;-)
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	How is the small group of people, who are supposed to be finding them?
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I have to run off to a meeting now, so I'll see you next time
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... Simon and I have to head off soon to another meeting at 11:45
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Jinx
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming
[11:44]	Cummere Mayo:	thanks for having us
[11:44]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Andrew and Simon
[11:44]	Jonathan Yap:	Thanks Simon & Andrew
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	there is a joke that comes to mind. on first panel u see a big suggestion box overfilled. and on the next panel u see that suggestion box being dumped in the trash can:(
[11:44]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thank YOU, Simon.
[11:44]	Latif Khalifa:	take care guys
[11:44]	Ashiri Sands:	cya Simon & Andrew
[11:45]	Cummere Mayo:	andrew after your meeting can you im me please?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	Bye
[11:45]	Sindra Aquila:	thanks simon and andrew, bye
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon, andrew
[11:45]	Moundsa Mayo:	ANd thank you, Andrew
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	An infinitely wise corporation would shred all suggestions, before the competiion reads their trash

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