User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 01 14

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[7:58] Imaze Rhiano: hi wolf

[7:58] Nock Forager: hello everybody

[7:58] WolfPup Lowenhar: hello

[7:58] Siann Beck: Aloha.

[7:58] Imaze Rhiano: hi :)

[8:01] Fake Fitzgerald: hello there

[8:01] Siann Beck: Hello Fake

[8:01] Nock Forager: Hi

[8:01] Imaze Rhiano: hi

[8:02] Babbage Linden: hi everyone

[8:02] Siann Beck: Hi Baggage!

[8:02] Imaze Rhiano: hi

[8:02] Fake Fitzgerald: hi Babbage

[8:02] Siann Beck: Doh!

[8:02] Siann Beck: *Babbage!

[8:02] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming again

[8:02] WolfPup Lowenhar: morning babbage

[8:02] Siann Beck: Gah I can't believe I did that!

[8:02] Babbage Linden: let me ping the groups

[8:03] Babbage Linden: what would you like to talk about today?

[8:04] Imaze Rhiano: how are memory usage metrics coming up? any numbers yet?

[8:04] Babbage Linden: the script usage code is in 1.25

[8:04] Babbage Linden: which will hopefully be going out this week

[8:04] Babbage Linden: (finally)

[8:05] Babbage Linden: so once that's across the grid we'll start analysing the results

[8:06] Babbage Linden: the biggest scripting development this week has been http-in passing its sandbox QAR

[8:06] Babbage Linden: so that's on course for 1.26

[8:06] Siann Beck: Cool!

[8:06] WolfPup Lowenhar: that is good

[8:06] Babbage Linden: it's in the merge queue now

[8:06] Siann Beck: That's going to be so nice.

[8:06] Lyn Mimistrobell: is that to replace rpc?

[8:06] Babbage Linden: yes

[8:06] Babbage Linden: it's more scalable

[8:07] Lyn Mimistrobell: great

[8:07] Babbage Linden: and allows 2 way http communications

[8:07] Babbage Linden: instead of having to use http out plus xml or email in

[8:07] Lyn Mimistrobell smiles

[8:08] Babbage Linden: in blighty we're mostly going to be working on scalability and networking issues for the next couple of quarters

[8:08] Babbage Linden: but i'm hoping to get to work on give money with confirmation and c# once we have the L$ API done and mono has a metadata verifier

[8:09] Babbage Linden: we're just finishing off our first iteration of the space server work

[8:09] Siann Beck: Also excellent.

[8:09] Lyn Mimistrobell: L$ api will also allow a script to check funds?

[8:09] Babbage Linden: so should be able to get to work on some mono maintenance tasks over the next couple of weeks

[8:09] Babbage Linden: we'd like to see where we are with 1.25 which has some fixes in

[8:10] Babbage Linden: the L$ API is an internal web service for money transactions

[8:10] Lyn Mimistrobell: ah ok

[8:10] Babbage Linden: that will take all of that load of the central database

[8:10] Babbage Linden: and use a separate back end for money transfers

[8:11] Babbage Linden: once it provides more reliability and feedback than the current system, we can switch LSL to use that

[8:11] Babbage Linden: which will let us return results to scripts more easily

[8:11] WolfPup Lowenhar: speaking of the central data bace i saw in the SL blog that the main DB is getting revamped

[8:12] Babbage Linden: there's lots of work on the central database happening

[8:12] Babbage Linden: both to make our current use of it more efficient

[8:12] Babbage Linden: and to break pieces like L$ transactions and region presence information in to independent, separate databases

[8:13] Neroelite Braun: Are all void sims being removed babbage?

[8:13] Neroelite Braun: speaking of smooth sim transition

[8:13] Babbage Linden: not sure about void sims, you'll need to talk to jack

[8:13] Neroelite Braun: whens his office hours XD

[8:13] Babbage Linden: i've only been involved in the land changes as far as sim limits go

[8:13] Neroelite Braun: I see

[8:13] Ethan Schuman: That brings up a question which I will save for later.

[8:14] Neroelite Braun: Its funny I come up with all these questions and as soon as office hour starts I can't remember XD

[8:14] Lyn Mimistrobell: psst Nero: notecards...

[8:14] Neroelite Braun: lol yeah

[8:14] Siann Beck: Any chance we could get https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1401 in there somewhere?

[8:14] Babbage Linden: let me look

[8:15] Arawn Spitteler hopes he remembers to ask about special viewer requirements ofr HTTP_In, and about documentation of things too simple for the experienced: I recentlyl discovered, I don't know HTTP from HTML

[8:15] WolfPup Lowenhar: i have a queston is there any group of people that are mainly working on trying to duplicate isses with the rc viewers?

[8:15] Arawn Spitteler: Coral's Place, in Longfellow,l has the application forms.

[8:15] Neroelite Braun: Babbage. I know there is a JIRA somewhere for it. But I was hoping that maybe in the future we could get a reall llDetectedGroup that returns a key. It would be very convenient when it comes to things such as security.

[8:16] Arawn Spitteler: I can't join, because I haven't a supported Graphics Card.

[8:16] Nock Forager: trying dupe, lol

[8:16] Neroelite Braun: Because the current only allows the group that the item is in.

[8:16] Lyn Mimistrobell: a llDetect function that will work if a user is IN the group not necessarily activated it

[8:16] Neroelite Braun: which has the same result as llSame Group

[8:16] Neroelite Braun: Yeah but what if I want a door or an item that works for multiple groups not just one

[8:17] Arawn Spitteler: It should be possible to detect if a SLURL is amongst Picks, but I don't know how that data is organized.

[8:17] Neroelite Braun: I have to have an item for each group I want allowed

[8:17] Babbage Linden: siann, we don't have plans for a syntax check button, but it's a client side feature, so we'd probably accept a patch for it

[8:17] Ethan Schuman: Use a multigroup server aray, Nero.

[8:17] Neroelite Braun: I do

[8:17] Lyn Mimistrobell: yes Nero, that too would be a good improvement

[8:17] Neroelite Braun: I'd prefer to have just one script for it all though

[8:17] Neroelite Braun: not to mention it would cut down on prims and script times.

[8:17] Lyn Mimistrobell: would make maintenance easier

[8:17] Neroelite Braun: its so excessive having servers

[8:18] Neroelite Braun: And I"m sure there ARE group keys right? jsut like every other item in sl

[8:18] Arawn Spitteler: It doesn't belong on a server, but there must have been a security consideration, in regulating what groups a prim could detect.

[8:18] Lyn Mimistrobell: yes

[8:18] Lyn Mimistrobell: everything has a UUID, groups too

[8:18] Babbage Linden: i haven't worked with groups, so i'm not sure how hard that would be

[8:19] Babbage Linden: have you opened a jira for it?

[8:19] Ethan Schuman: Yes, Nero. If you want, later, I'll give you an authentication algorithm.

[8:19] Neroelite Braun: yeah theres no progress on it at all

[8:19] Babbage Linden: i've noticed that group owned land can cause problems with the group query functions

[8:19] Arawn Spitteler: What's the Jira, so I can vote?

[8:19] Siann Beck: There are several, I believe, dealing with varios aspects of the issue.

[8:19] Babbage Linden: land query functions, sorry

[8:19] Neroelite Braun: just people arguing and I can't understand what teh down fall is. It jsut allows discrimination of groups you can't hack them or anything

[8:20] Neroelite Braun: there aren't any group related scripting events anyways

[8:20] Babbage Linden: wolfpup, yes there are lots of people working on the viewer rc issues

[8:20] Babbage Linden is trying to catch up with questions

[8:20] WolfPup Lowenhar: ok was just wondering because i have a jira in a mis clicking issue

[8:20] Siann Beck: I'd say all-in-all, groups are one area that need the most attention and have the highest demand for it.

[8:21] Neroelite Braun: I suppose that if you came up with group related scripting people wouldn't need bots.

[8:21] Siann Beck: The JJira to raise the number of groups has the most votes, except one to try to stop the open sims transition

[8:21] Neroelite Braun: well maybe not. NOT need. but thats one of the major uses is to have them let people jkoin groups

[8:22] Babbage Linden: kelly and don did most of the work on groups, so they're the people to ask

[8:22] WolfPup Lowenhar: had worked with Ramzi Linden on it for a few minutes befor i had to goto RL work but it seems at the time they were there they were unable to reproduce the issue

[8:23] Neroelite Braun: the thing is is that Lindens are hard to get ahold of. Is there any kind of schedule for office hours of lindens

[8:23] Ethan Schuman: Yes, Nero. There's a page on the Wiki with Linden office hours.

[8:23] Arawn Spitteler'd like scripts to attend group IMs: Documentation on how the p[rofiles are organized, would allow me to see if groups are acessible through that channel.

[8:23] Neroelite Braun: okay

[8:24] Arawn Spitteler: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours

[8:24] Siann Beck: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours

[8:24] Siann Beck: Beat me to it!

[8:24] Neroelite Braun: kelly and don don't have office hours :X

[8:24] Ethan Schuman: Check their profiles then.

[8:24] Babbage Linden: i'll point them to the office hour chat log when it's up

[8:24] Arawn Spitteler's about as laggy as Siann

[8:26] Ethan Schuman: I have a question I'd like to bring up. Is there any chance of us getting a feature that allows us to change an avatar's physical orientation, preferably through an attachment?

[8:26] Neroelite Braun: Hey babbage I'm a rl chef looking for work. Do you need apersonal chef?

[8:26] Ethan Schuman: It would REALLY help us with our progress on VerticalSim.

[8:27] WolfPup Lowenhar: babbage do you know if there are office hours for the RC viewers?

[8:27] Babbage Linden: the only way to change rotation i know of is to use sitting and then changing the rotation of the end links

[8:27] Arawn Spitteler: Rotation? I think that was blocked, because of abuse pottenital. Abusiphobia is one of the greates sources of Griefing, in SL. It might be possible, to create a pseudowalk vehicle, to go wall-climbing

[8:27] Arawn Spitteler: Try CG, WolfPup

[8:28] Ethan Schuman: Yes. That's how it is currently. However, a friend of mine and I are working on a project to basically tip a sim onto its side and use the Z axis as the X.

[8:28] Arawn Spitteler: After this hour, look up CG at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours and go there.

[8:28] Arawn Spitteler: A vehicle is what ou're loooking for.

[8:28] Ethan Schuman: At this time, we currently use a hacked up vehicle to accomplish the simulation effect, but the ability to naturally rotate an avatar would be much more practical.

[8:29] Babbage Linden: find or add a jira ethan

[8:29] Neroelite Braun: how about this babbage. When it comes to sitting can we get fullr ange of view. Because when I make planes and such. I can'tlook down to point the ship down

[8:29] Babbage Linden: it's unlikely to be prioritised above give money improvements though

[8:29] Neroelite Braun: maybe thats not your area

[8:30] Arawn Spitteler: It would also be good for Hugs, which are a major market, in SL, but it would also allow SpinTheNoob HUDs

[8:30] Neroelite Braun: but the restricted view of someone whos sitting is irritating

[8:30] Neroelite Braun: its not important

[8:30] Arawn Spitteler: Restricted?

[8:30] Ethan Schuman: We'll have to do that, then, I suppose. We were working with Sidewinder until he left LL, so it's kind of like starting again from scratch, hah.

[8:30] Neroelite Braun: yeah you can't look down as far as when you are stading thus on a vehicle that points where ver the AV is looking, it can't look down all the way

[8:31] Arawn Spitteler wonders if something can be done with Camera Controls

[8:31] Neroelite Braun: Alright kids. I'm out thanks for your time babbage

[8:31] WolfPup Lowenhar: i know i use camera controls a lot

[8:32] Babbage Linden: np, thanks for coming

[8:32] Ethan Schuman: No, Arawn. I know what he's talking about. It's an innate feature in the vehi... well, he's gone.

[8:32] Lamorna Proctor: Hello Babbage. Sorry I'm late. I've been meaning to attend your meetings for some time, but Wednesday are not a good day for me RL

[8:33] Arawn Spitteler'd like to look at the verticle sim, later: A study of how much viewer and server control camera, might be worth while.

[8:33] Ethan Schuman: Surely, Arawn. I'll take you by after we're done here.

[8:33] Arawn Spitteler just got here, himkself: Better late than never, but Tardy is making an entrance.

[8:34] Arawn Spitteler still wants issue, of How to tell GET from PUT or Http from HTML

[8:34] Lyn Mimistrobell: HTML is a document format, HTTP is a protocol...

[8:35] Lyn Mimistrobell: :P

[8:35] Arawn Spitteler: Yeah, I'm trying to script a profile reader, and am lost.

[8:35] Babbage Linden: the method is passed to the http_request event as a string

[8:35] Lamorna Proctor: It should be a simple HTTP request

[8:35] Ethan Schuman: orient.2

[8:36] Lyn Mimistrobell: you won't use PUT tho... GET or POST

[8:36] Lyn Mimistrobell: in your case, GET should do it

[8:36] Arawn Spitteler: Where's the Hysterical Record?

[8:36] Lamorna Proctor: If you send multiple concurrent llHTTPRequest calls, you will have to keep track of the key of each request in a list

[8:36] Soundless Smalls: hi all, srry I'm late

[8:36] Babbage Linden: yes, PUT doesn't make sense with http-in as you can't specify URLs

[8:37] Babbage Linden: (POST to a constructor resource works though, and is a better pattern to use with RESTful APIs anyway)

[8:37] Arawn Spitteler: The Wiki for this stuff, should have a link for what Methods are.

[8:37] Lyn Mimistrobell: What historical (I assume you mean that) data do you mean?

[8:38] Arawn Spitteler: When my mother was programming, the only documentation was in the Historical Records, pronounced Hysterical

[8:38] Babbage Linden: ok, any more questions or are we done?

[8:39] Siann Beck: Any idea when 1.26 will come down the line?

[8:39] Ethan Schuman: Babbage, I'm going to be taking Arawn to VerticalSim. Would you like to come have a look as well? It's kind of cool.

[8:39] Lyn Mimistrobell: Any idea what kind of scripting restrictions LL is thinking about for homestead? Would it be limited functionality or limited performance?

[8:39] Siann Beck: Or is it too early to even guess?

[8:39] Lamorna Proctor: no questions from me

[8:39] Arawn Spitteler thinks 1.26 will be working brfore 1.25: Is there a special viewer, for HTP_In?

[8:39] Babbage Linden: siann, 1.26 is looking like being end of the quarter at the moment

[8:39] Siann Beck: No, it's all server-side, Awawn.

[8:40] Siann Beck: OK

[8:40] Arawn Spitteler: Keywords GET and PUT weren't highlighting.

[8:40] Imaze Rhiano: preview grid did have place to test http-in - still there?

[8:40] Babbage Linden: lyn, scripting restrictions will be on number of scripts per m2 initially

[8:40] Arawn Spitteler: Closed on Monday.

[8:40] Lyn Mimistrobell: okay

[8:40] Babbage Linden: and avatars will have a script pool for attachments too

[8:41] Babbage Linden: check http-in for details of how it will work

[8:41] Babbage Linden: it's likely to work in the same way that http-in public URL restrictions work

[8:41] Maldoror Bowman: Is that documented now?

[8:42] Babbage Linden: it should be

[8:43] Lyn Mimistrobell: Any news on reg exp? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-790

[8:43] Babbage Linden: start here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Http_request

[8:43] Babbage Linden: lyn, not that I know of

[8:43] WolfPup Lowenhar: babbage what is the easiest way to record an isseu in the viewers or capture the data to add to jira's?

[8:43] Babbage Linden: wolfpup, help about gives a lot of useful data

[8:43] Siann Beck: Is http-in still going to allow multiple URLs per prim? I've been asking for a use case for it, as I can't think of one except griefing.

[8:44] Arawn Spitteler's recently learned to use <ctrl><print Screen>

[8:44] Siann Beck: No one I've asked can think of one.

[8:44] Babbage Linden: plus as much information as you can add on how to reproduce the issue

[8:44] Babbage Linden: siann, yes

[8:44] Babbage Linden: a use case is to provide a capability system in a single script

[8:44] Babbage Linden: for example, you have a script listen on a public channel

[8:45] WolfPup Lowenhar: im wanting to help get the data for this jira http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11401 to mabey help the people working on it more information

[8:45] Babbage Linden: other scripts ask it for a capability

[8:45] Babbage Linden: if they're allowed a new URI can be generated for that client

[8:46] Babbage Linden: so you can do the same secure communications between scripts that we use for second life communications

[8:46] Arawn Spitteler takes a moment to distinguish Server Side Clients from Client Side Clients.

[8:46] Siann Beck: I see, so a script would give out different URLs to different requestors.

[8:47] Babbage Linden: yes

[8:47] Siann Beck: But why couldn't that be done with a single URL, and some kind of key?

[8:47] Siann Beck: I just see it being abused, with someone writing a script to grab all the URLs for a region.

[8:47] Arawn Spitteler: It would grab for a parcel

[8:48] Babbage Linden: having a single URL per script doesn't really help when you can have multiple scripts

[8:48] Babbage Linden: and we didn't want people to have to use multiple scripts in order to get multiple URLs

[8:48] Lamorna Proctor: would it be possible to limit the URL's per object owner in a region?

[8:48] Babbage Linden: but yes, often you can just build sub trees

[8:49] Imaze Rhiano: here is documentation for http-in: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server

[8:49] Babbage Linden: not currently lamorna

[8:49] Babbage Linden: that would create more configuration than we have for prims

[8:49] Soundless Smalls: thnx imaze

[8:49] Siann Beck: I guess we'll se how it goes in operation.

[8:49] Babbage Linden: we wanted to model the prim design

[8:50] Babbage Linden: instead of having multiple rationing schemes

[8:50] Linegirl McMillan: How are IMs and group chat organized? Is it related to your work on taking load of the central database and making script communicate? I have had group chat lag recently

[8:50] Lyn Mimistrobell: I gotta go - ty for your time Babbage

[8:50] Lamorna Proctor: I've been thinking of use cases, but most of them fall down because of the fact that the URL doesn't persist

[8:51] Babbage Linden: linegirl, IMs and group chat don't use the database

[8:51] Linegirl McMillan: thank you

[8:51] Babbage Linden: but are another hard problem to scale

[8:51] Babbage Linden: there are people thinking about it

[8:51] Babbage Linden: looking at technologies like jabber for scaling

[8:52] Babbage Linden: but i don't know how far along that work is

[8:52] Nock Forager: interesting. hope we can use that protcol from outside sl too.

[8:52] Linegirl McMillan: would be interesting

[8:52] Arawn Spitteler: SLim doesn't seem to have office hours.

[8:54] Lamorna Proctor: i have to go. thanks Babbage. I'll try to make these meetings more often if I can

[8:54] Babbage Linden: ok bye lamorna

[8:54] Babbage Linden: i'm going to head off in a minute too

[8:55] Lamorna Proctor: bye, Oh, btw I'm just down the road from you :)

[8:55] Babbage Linden: any last thoughts?

[8:55] Lamorna Proctor: Brighton

[8:55] Arawn Spitteler'd like an instruction hbook, on how to access HTTP for Idiots

[8:55] Lamorna Proctor: bye now

[8:55] WolfPup Lowenhar: do you know if the SLim is going to be able to see more chat such as group ims and such?

[8:56] Babbage Linden: nope, i don't know wolfpup

[8:56] WolfPup Lowenhar: do you know who might?

[8:56] Arawn Spitteler wonders if Stephanie Linden still has a job

[8:57] Babbage Linden: joe is the person to ask about slim

[8:57] Babbage Linden: or stephanie

[8:57] Arawn Spitteler: Joe?

[8:58] Babbage Linden: joe linden

[8:58] Arawn Spitteler: I have't found Office Hours for Joe or Stephany

[8:58] Annelin Corrigible: Stephany worked on Landmark and navigation project

[8:58] Annelin Corrigible: Stephanie*

[8:59] Babbage Linden: cg might also be a good person to aslk

[8:59] Babbage Linden: ok, i have to go

[8:59] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming everyone

[8:59] WolfPup Lowenhar: i may see if i can get with ramzi some more about the issue with the viwer

[8:59] Siann Beck: Thanks, Babbage!

[8:59] Arawn Spitteler: CG had no brief, last I asked.

[8:59] Nock Forager: Thanks for your time babbage.

[8:59] Imaze Rhiano: thanks

[9:00] Babbage Linden: bye!

[9:00] Linegirl McMillan: slim is better than sleek? I think you get group IMs in sleek

[9:00] Fake Fitzgerald: thanks babbage

[9:00] WolfPup Lowenhar: Thank Youuuuuu!! for the tip for having us here babbage

[9:00] WolfPup Lowenhar: woppx

[9:00] Arawn Spitteler is off to go Verticle

[9:00] Nock Forager: cross finger for 1.25.3!