User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 02 11

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[8:33] Babbage Linden: hi everyone

[8:33] Babbage Linden: sorry i'm late

[8:33] Cale Flanagan: and whos xml is that?

[8:33] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Babbage.

[8:33] Siann Beck: Hi Babbage!

[8:33] Babbage Linden: unfortunately i've got to rush off to another meeting

[8:33] WolfPup Lowenhar: hey babbage

[8:33] Nock Forager: lol

[8:33] Fake Fitzgerald: hi Babbage

[8:33] Babbage Linden: but si linden from brighton is going to come along to chat for a while

[8:34] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!

[8:34] Babbage Linden: he works with me in brighton, so can talk to you about what we've been doing with script metrics

[8:34] Siann Beck: Cool

[8:34] Cale Flanagan: do he has a bear?:)

[8:34] Babbage Linden: everything should be back to normal next week :-D

[8:35] Arawn Spitteler recalls the meaning of SNAFU

[8:35] Siann Beck: Hey, Si!

[8:35] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Si

[8:35] Si Linden: Hi Everyone

[8:35] Nock Forager: Hi Si.

[8:35] Babbage Linden: ok, have fun everyone

[8:35] Fake Fitzgerald: hi Si

[8:35] Siann Beck: Bye Babbage!

[8:35] Cale Flanagan: si, hi

[8:35] Morgaine Dinova: Still got snow in Brighton? It refuses to go away, just north of London

[8:35] Babbage Linden: i'll see you next week

[8:35] WolfPup Lowenhar: morning si

[8:35] Babbage Linden: code sage

[8:35] Babbage Linden: safe

[8:35] Si Linden: Wow - you still have snow? Ours has melted now.

[8:35] Arawn Spitteler: Safe is Sage?

[8:35] Si Linden: It was great while it lasted though

[8:36] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, liked it. Beats rain every day

[8:36] Si Linden: so how are you all doing?

[8:36] Morgaine Dinova: Great Si -- how goes?

[8:36] Siann Beck: Not bad!

[8:36] Arawn Spitteler's trying to recruit a few million dollars, but will surf the web a while more.

[8:36] Si Linden: glad to hear it :)

[8:37] Si Linden: hehe - good luck with that Arawn!

[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: Doing anything fun, Si?

[8:37] Si Linden: I am working on some performance testing at the moment

[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!

[8:37] Si Linden: it is good fun - and there are lots of nice graphs to look at :)

[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: What area?

[8:37] WolfPup Lowenhar: < has almost forgottne what snow looks and feels like :(

[8:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hehehe

[8:37] Si Linden: We have written a new internal web service that the sims will use

[8:38] Si Linden: and we need to know what sort of throughput it will handle gracefully

[8:38] Si Linden: So I am hammering it with requests!

[8:38] Morgaine Dinova: MRTG still lives? ;-)

[8:38] Susie Chaffe: gracefully as in not crashing the sim

[8:38] Si Linden: exactly :) sim crash == bad

[8:38] Si Linden: it should be totally isolated from the sim though

[8:38] Morgaine Dinova: I'm not voting for sim crash.

[8:38] Arawn Spitteler: Sim_Crash & Bad

[8:39] Si Linden: it will run on separate machines from any sim

[8:39] Si Linden: sim crashes are a big focus around here at the moment

[8:39] Si Linden: if I introduced some there would be big trouble :)

[8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe

[8:39] Siann Beck: :)

[8:40] Susie Chaffe: any fallout from the Rerouted regions this morning

[8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Can't live in total safety and still progress though.

[8:40] Si Linden: It's going smoothly so far

[8:40] Si Linden: Morgaine: it is certainly a challenge, but we are really working hard to learn ways to make it work

[8:41] WolfPup Lowenhar: si is there a was to test netowrked vendors when the server is on agni and your on aditi?

[8:41] Susie Chaffe: something has been playing hookey with inworld emails for the last hour

[8:41] Si Linden: WolfPup: none that I know of, I believe the grids are totally separated

[8:41] Arawn Spitteler: Intergrid e-mail and http should be functional, in principal

[8:41] Si Linden: they are backed up by their own databases and routing tools

[8:42] WolfPup Lowenhar: ok

[8:42] Si Linden: but if you use external comms - like http you might be able to manage it

[8:42] Si Linden: Arawn: have you managed to get that workgin?

[8:42] Morgaine Dinova: I haven't looked at the instrumentation side of the client. When the Stats Bar says a Ping Sim time, is that a conventional ICMP echo, or something else?

[8:43] Siann Beck: Are there sims on agni with http-in?

[8:43] Arawn Spitteler: I don't know what an http_in might do, so I haven't tested it yet.

[8:43] Si Linden: http-in is not on agni yet, but it is going through the final stages of releasing

[8:43] Si Linden: so it should be real soon now :)

[8:43] Arawn Spitteler: As far as I know, only on Aditi. The software might not have passed Asset QA

[8:43] Siann Beck: Great!

[8:43] Morgaine Dinova: That's cool

[8:43] Si Linden: Morgaine: I am not sure, possibly, I will check

[8:43] WolfPup Lowenhar: i was wanting to work on moding the fossl vendor system on aditi so that i didn't have to wory about hving them cause problems on agni

[8:44] Si Linden: Morgaine: in fact I suspect it uses our own messaging mechanism

[8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Would make sense

[8:44] Si Linden: since it pings the simulator, not the host the sim is running on

[8:44] Si Linden: and we have some code in there already to check the aliveness

[8:45] Si Linden: so I guess we use those stats

[8:45] Si Linden: WolfPup: that sounds really sensible, I will do some research into inter-sim comms and ask babbage to let you know next week

[8:46] Si Linden: sorry - I mean inter-grid, not inter-sim

[8:46] Imaze Rhiano: so are scripts metrics coming on? can you yet estimate how much memory we will get for parcel / avatars?

[8:46] Si Linden: we have got script metric gathering code live on the agni grid now

[8:46] Si Linden: we are in the process of gathering the data

[8:46] Si Linden: ready for a proper analysis

[8:47] Si Linden: I believe that the intial figures are showing a 10% figure for mono

[8:47] Si Linden: i.e. 10% of all the scripts running anywhere are already Mono

[8:47] Si Linden: which is a really exciting figure and shows a good adoption rate

[8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Does the sound data (excluding Music which doesn't come from LL sim) take up much bandwidth? (I assume it's low samplerate for ambient and sounds)

[8:48] WolfPup Lowenhar: any scripts i write are mono and i recomplied the fossl vending system to mono

[8:48] Si Linden: Morgaine: I am not sure of the specific ratios of bandwidth, I know we have function in this area, but not sure what - I'll have a dig in our internal docs

[8:49] Si Linden: Gold star to you WolfPup :) that's great news

[8:49] Morgaine Dinova: Don't worry, though you might see it from your graphs

[8:49] Nock Forager: Is there any plan to release the detail you examined? Just curious, I want to know what type of scripts used much in this world.

[8:49] Cale Flanagan: poseballscripts;)

[8:50] Nock Forager: :)

[8:50] Imaze Rhiano: bedposeballscripts

[8:50] Cale Flanagan: y, i dodnt want to be to detailed:)

[8:50] Nock Forager: hehe just curious :)

[8:50] Imaze Rhiano: hairresizing scripts - in all those 255 prims

[8:50] Arawn Spitteler heard something, about inactive scripts taking up time slices; if my polymorphic teleporters were functional, they use lists of scripts to restart.

[8:50] Si Linden: Hmm, re bandwidth ratios: I don't see anything on our wiki, I'll research and ask babbage to talk about it next week

[8:50] WolfPup Lowenhar: if the items useing those script are modable and the scripts are modable you can recomple them to mono easily

[8:51] Siann Beck: This might be a bit out of your jurisdiction, but any idea when we'll get Mono compile from inventory?

[8:51] Si Linden: re publicising script data: I am sure that we will make them public once we have verified them etc

[8:51] Arawn Spitteler imagines recompiling scripts in each hair prim, to mono...

[8:52] Nock Forager: nice, I love metrics :)

[8:52] Cale Flanagan: easy, there is a mass recompile function

[8:52] Si Linden: me too Nock :) metrics + science rules!

[8:52] Arawn Spitteler: Mono takes a long time to recompile a script

[8:52] WolfPup Lowenhar: arwin all you have to do is edit the item and if there is a script in the root then you can recomple the while thing with no problem

[8:52] Cale Flanagan: (but do it works in all prims...)

[8:53] Si Linden: That's true Arawn, I have noticed it takes a little longer too

[8:53] Morgaine Dinova: Is anyone from Brighton going to be involved with the MMOX workgroup at the IETF? We're having quite a bit of fun on the mailing list already.

[8:53] Si Linden: Morgaine - I'll ask, but I haven't heard of anyone that is going yet

[8:54] Si Linden: Siann: mono compile from inventory - you mean so you don't have to rez stuff to recompile?

[8:55] Siann Beck: Right.

[8:55] Si Linden: I don't know of a plan for that, but I will ask babbage and get him to talk about it next week

[8:55] Siann Beck: Well, no, I mean so you can compile a script item in inventory.

[8:55] Si Linden: (I am building a little list for him eh?!)

[8:55] Siann Beck: :)

[8:55] WolfPup Lowenhar: i think when we select new script in the invetory can it be madt to slect mono

[8:55] Cale Flanagan: and put it back in inv to put it back into object to get same asset (code sharing)

[8:55] Imaze Rhiano: ya

[8:55] Arawn Spitteler: Inventory doesn't exist in sim, where the compilation is done, but all scripts are in inventory of something

[8:56] Imaze Rhiano: remember to mention that he will get 2 angry kitten to next meeting if he doesn't answer to them :P

[8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha

[8:56] Si Linden: hehe

[8:56] Si Linden: I will definitely tell him that!

[8:56] Cale Flanagan: they put already scratches in his stuff...

[8:57] Si Linden: Arawn: nice description, thanks - couldn't have said it better!

[8:57] Morgaine Dinova: Do you use a direct LSL to CLR compile on the sim, or translate to C# and then compile?

[8:58] Arawn Spitteler doesn't think we've a C# compiler, yet

[8:58] Si Linden: We do a direct compile to mono byte code

[8:58] Morgaine Dinova: kk

[8:58] Si Linden: from the lsl text

[8:58] Arawn Spitteler: It's done bby the Simulator, which is why it takes longer, but how is this going to fly on Open Grid?

[8:58] Imaze Rhiano: Babbage told before that you have prototype C# compiler too

[8:59] Imaze Rhiano: one feature request:

[8:59] Darwin Recreant: are we ever going to get client side syntax check back? compiling takes awhile just to check syntax

[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: That's actually why I asked the question Arawn --- I was going to follow up with "Is the translater going to be open sourced for compatibility on |interop?"

[8:59] Morgaine Dinova: interop*

[9:00] Imaze Rhiano: llWarpPos - warps object inside SIM to any position

[9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Because if there's no compatibility then interop kinda breaks.

[9:01] Arawn Spitteler: Anyother way to ask is, will InterOp create a market for the old LSL Bytecode?

[9:01] Si Linden: Fair point, I am not aware of a plan to do syntax verification in the viewer

[9:01] Arawn Spitteler: That might even be the question

[9:01] Si Linden: though I can see it would be really useful

[9:02] Siann Beck: Indeed it would.

[9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Last time we asked about syntax checking, the reply was "That's an ideal thing for the community to add to the viewer." And I think that;s right too.

[9:02] Arawn Spitteler: Syntax Verification is needed because Server Side Compilation is too slow. We have color flashes, viewer side, and these could be expannded.

[9:02] Siann Beck: There would still have to be support from LL's side though, Morgaine.

[9:02] Si Linden: Is there a JIRA for client side syntax verification?

[9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Siann: ideally they should supply the grammar parser at least, yeah.

[9:03] Siann Beck: Right.

[9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Is it done in yacc/bison?

[9:03] Si Linden: I know of no plan to open source our translator

[9:03] Si Linden: but that doesn't mean we don't have one :)

[9:03] Imaze Rhiano:

[9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe

[9:04] Si Linden: Morgaine: we certainly use lex and yacc for the lsl -> lsl bytecode

[9:04] Si Linden: but we use something a bit more flexible for lsl -> mono bytecode

[9:04] Morgaine Dinova: kk

[9:05] Si Linden: I can't think of the name of it right now

[9:05] Morgaine Dinova: If the lexer/parser is nice and separate, you could release just that, and let community build on it for syntax checking. Or, the old LSL compiler could be used of course.

[9:06] Si Linden: thanks Imaze - I suggest you all add your comments / requests to that JIRA to add weight to it!

[9:07] Si Linden: the lexer is the same for lsl + mono bytecode I think

[9:08] Si Linden: but the parser is modular

[9:08] Si Linden: and specific to each language (again *I think*!)

[9:09] Si Linden: I'll add that to babbages list - he has good links with the open sim crowd and probably has more info on this situation than I can guess :)

[9:09] Morgaine Dinova: Well here's the usual question then ... when are we getting O(1) arrays? ;-)))))))

[9:10] Siann Beck: Yes!

[9:10] Si Linden: lol Morgaine!

[9:10] WolfPup Lowenhar: most defantly

[9:10] Si Linden: so ... what is the usual answer?

[9:10] Siann Beck: LSL3?

[9:10] Cale Flanagan: usualanswer is, next server version:)

[9:11] Imaze Rhiano: when sky falls and elephants fly

[9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Well the answer from Don Linden 3 years ago was "Yeah, they're working fine, I just have a couple of corners to tweak." ;-))))

[9:11] Siann Beck: lol

[9:11] Arawn Spitteler: It's been promised in LSL#, as the reason for C#

[9:11] Imaze Rhiano: but you have C# prototype somewhere there? that should should solve problem...

[9:12] Si Linden: hehe - I don't know of active dev work in that area right now, we want to make sure Mono is fully stabilised before any major upheaval on the lsl lang

[9:12] Si Linden: We do have a c# prototype, it would be really gread to get that live

[9:12] Arawn Spitteler: Andrew's been waiting to add some features.

[9:12] Si Linden: it isn't fully functional, but works as a proof of concept

[9:13] Morgaine Dinova: I can't for the life of me understand why it's not been done, as it's such a small job, and would save lots of CPU cycles from not having to do all the silly list traversals.

[9:13] Arawn Spitteler: There should be some progressife documentation of C# features.

[9:13] Si Linden: Morgaine: I hear what you are saying, I can only assume that there is some difficulty with it

[9:13] Si Linden: maybe a 'quirck' in our language design

[9:13] Arawn Spitteler: PRIM_TYPE_TORTURED and llDetectedTarget are needed.

[9:14] Si Linden: otherwise I would guess it would have been done by now

[9:14] WolfPup Lowenhar: one thing is for shure arays would make the database script in the fossl vending system more functional

[9:15] Imaze Rhiano: Metadata verifier is coming in next Mono release (March) - so then you should drop it to that C# prototype and release it...

[9:16] Si Linden: That does sound sensible Imaze, but I can't make any guarantees of course

[9:16] Arawn Spitteler: C# on Aditi?

[9:17] Cale Flanagan: i would take C also, if c# not possible....

[9:17] Si Linden: hehe - there won't be a C version I am afraid!

[9:17] Cale Flanagan: (i will be the master of my 64k)

[9:17] Arawn Spitteler: C is too powerful; Scripting for Linden Servers has to be crippled

[9:18] Imaze Rhiano: how about Assembler? MC68000 or I486?

[9:18] Imaze Rhiano: :P

[9:18] Siann Beck: lol Imaze

[9:18] Cale Flanagan: y, mc68 would be acceptable

[9:18] Arawn Spitteler wants a scriptable client

[9:18] Darwin Recreant: and plugins!

[9:18] Cale Flanagan: or c# and , how ist called so i can use pointers...

[9:18] Si Linden: We are waiting for the verifier to be avaiable in mono

[9:19] Si Linden: then we are going to porperly assess the c# scripting

[9:19] Si Linden: though, it would be significant work, and not likely to be shipped in the short term

[9:19] Imaze Rhiano: when are script memory limit going to hit?

[9:19] Cale Flanagan: just some corners...:P

[9:20] Si Linden: hehe - we could implement all sorts of assembly languages! That could be really fun!

[9:20] Si Linden: Imaze: we are gathering data right now, we need that data to make the decisions

[9:20] Morgaine Dinova: How is the wierd state machine system of LSL going to be expressed in C#?

[9:20] Arawn Spitteler: What is the general philosophic approach to InterOp ByteCode?

[9:21] Si Linden: Morgaine: there is certainly an element of hammering a square peg into a round hole!

[9:21] Cale Flanagan: i wouldnt cry,if i have no states in c#

[9:21] Si Linden: Arawn: as far as I know, bytecode is fully managed on the servers

[9:21] Imaze Rhiano: I think that Open SIM is using C# for scripting - likely similar model as there

[9:21] Si Linden: so I am not sure there is compatibility at that level at all

[9:22] Si Linden: only at the sourcecode level

[9:22] Arawn Spitteler: Last I attended Zero Hour, the talk was about protectig creativee authority, but this sounds like a question of the Flying Horses of Troy

[9:22] Morgaine Dinova: Si: what I really meant to ask was, is there going to be an outer-level state machine structure like in LSL, and just use C# for the functions, or is it going to be made to look like real C# files, and use special calls for the state machine functionality?

[9:22] Morgaine Dinova: Kind of opposite approaches

[9:23] Si Linden: ah i see Morgaine, I think that level of decision is still up for grabs

[9:23] Morgaine Dinova: kk

[9:23] Cale Flanagan: maybe u have to make ur own state machine, but who cares:)

[9:24] Si Linden: there is some info about the Mono Sandboxing tech that we are hoping will enable c# scripting:

[9:24] Morgaine Dinova: LSL is pretty unique in having an outer level that is a nicely readable state machine. (Pity the rest is so dire though, hehe :P)

[9:24] Cale Flanagan: if i could have state-local vars i would likethe states more...

[9:25] Siann Beck: That would definitely be nice, Cale.

[9:25] Siann Beck: I was just wishing for that on my latest project.

[9:25] Cale Flanagan: bec i really hate the mess with globals everywhere

[9:26] Imaze Rhiano:

[9:26] Si Linden: agreed Cale

[9:26] Cale Flanagan: (and there is already a jira as far as i remember)

[9:26] Imaze Rhiano:

[9:26] Si Linden: so one suggestion we have considered for modelling state is the State pattern:

[9:26] Cale Flanagan: (go vote! :) )

[9:27] Si Linden: but as I say, it's still really up in the air, so nothing concrete yet!

[9:28] Si Linden: ok folks, I have to get back to interpreting my performance graphs

[9:29] Si Linden: I am going to ask babbage to look at the following for next week:

[9:29] Si Linden: Intergrid comms

[9:29] Cale Flanagan: nono, u justgot a worklist:)

[9:29] Si Linden: lol

[9:29] Siann Beck: lol

[9:29] Si Linden: Viewer bandwidth sharing

[9:29] Nock Forager: Thanks Si see you again.

[9:29] Si Linden: recompile in inventory

[9:29] WolfPup Lowenhar: tc

[9:29] Si Linden: angry kittens

[9:29] Siann Beck: heh!

[9:29] Si Linden: and open source plans for lsl -> mono

[9:30] Si Linden: :)

[9:30] Siann Beck: Cale wanted to know if you have a bear.

[9:30] Cale Flanagan: u firgit state loclas:)

[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe. Take care Si

[9:30] Si Linden: it's been great to chat to you all, see ya

[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Si has a bear?

[9:30] Si Linden: state locals added to list

[9:30] Darwin Recreant: take care Si, ty

[9:30] Cale Flanagan: ah, he was nice, so he can leave without bear:) cu

[9:30] Si Linden: sorry no bear yet

[9:30] Si Linden: thanks Cale :)

[9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe

[9:30] Siann Beck: :)

[9:30] Si Linden: byeeee!

[9:31] Siann Beck: Bye!

[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks for chat Si :-)

[9:31] Fake Fitzgerald: thanks and bye

[9:31] Siann Beck: Yes, thanks for coming!

[9:31] Cale Flanagan: now back to the 64k exploding storage lists..

[9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Was interesting.

[9:32] Cale Flanagan: bye all (and vote for state locels;) )

[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: I wonder how many scripting languages Opensim will have by next year. 20?

[9:32] Imaze Rhiano: 42