User:Blue Linden/Office Hour Transcripts/March 26th, 2008
[16:05] You: well, before we start, thank you very much for coming everyone!
[16:10] You: okay....so i thought today I'd do what I used to do before I became topic-happy
[16:10] You: and have a freestyle office hour
[16:10] You: and we can bounce from subject to subject at your behest
[16:10] You: (yes this does indicate a lack of planning on my part)
[16:11] You: so what's the hot topic in SL lately....
[16:11] Delora Starbrook: hot topic in SL lately has been the epidemic of content theft that is seeming to take over the grid.
[16:13] You: well first, I should point out that "content theft" is not the best description as it could mean a number of things
[16:13] You: are you talking about textures?
[16:13] Delora Starbrook: Not neccessarily texture-ripping, no. I'm also speaking of prim-replication and a new version of copybot.
[16:14] You: I don't have much info on these things as they're more of a GTeam topic....but i do have a bit of knoweldge of copybot
[16:14] You: not familiar with new one....
[16:15] You: I am familiar with the old one though heheh
[16:15] You: I was communication monkey the week it came about and was up to my ears in it
[16:15] Harleen Gretzky: Same as teh old, just new features
[16:15] Delora Starbrook: I will be happy to dig up the link of the new copybot in action video for you soon.
[16:16] You: okay thank you Delora
[16:16] Delora Starbrook: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dzl6gOIwQao Posted three weeks ago to youtube
[16:15] You: most of the info that was going around was completely false and panic ran wild
[16:15] You: so try to stay objective....
[16:16] You: one of the things that was a good example of the panic associated with copybot was that there was, in an early incarnation, a shutoff command
[16:16] You: you'd shout OFF or STOP or something in chat channel and it would stop
[16:16] Delora Starbrook: This one only responds to its "Master" supposedly. No shutoff.
[16:17] You: that was removed almost immediately though....and yet I still hear people yelling to try to stop copybot
[16:17] Daedalus Young: I still run into so-called "low spam" anti-copybot stuff, spamming the chat with stop and off
[16:17] Trinity Coulter: lol
[16:17] Harleen Gretzky hates the !quit spammers, copybots long ago stoppped using that command
[16:17] You: yes, that never really worked, but people used it almost superstitiously
[16:17] Dimitrio Lewis: !quit !quit !quit !quit !!!ULTRA LOW PANIC ANTI-COPYBOT SCRIPT!!!!
[16:17] You: and drove everyene ELSE crazy with spam
[16:17] Daedalus Young: exactly like that
[16:17] Delora Starbrook: I'm not nearly as scared of copybot as I am the 'legal' prim-replicators that are now on the market.
[16:18] You: so please be careful in spreading info you're not sure of....sometimes it makes things worse instead of better
[16:18] You: you know Delora, it's been possible to replicate prims since 2003
[16:18] You: those things aren't new at all
[16:18] Delora Starbrook: They're being marketed to people seeking to profit off another person's hard work. ie: hair, prim attachments, other things that need resizing.
[16:18] Delora Starbrook: Yes, but they really, really need to be stopped.
[16:19] You: and they haven't resulted in the destruction of the economy or widespread theft of content
[16:19] You: as they say "guns don't kill people, people do"
[16:19] Trinity Coulter: never hurts to keep improving tho, right?
[16:19] Delora Starbrook: How widespread does it have to become before it's actually considered "widespread", Blue?
[16:19] You: so the best case scenario is to help the support team stop those using them for all the wrong reasons
[16:19] Daedalus Young: but without guns it would be a lot harder for them
[16:20] You: hehe yes, that's another topic altogether :)
[16:20] Trinity Coulter: Which Linden is working on some sort of virtual escrow idea now that will help make transactions work more reliably
[16:20] You: well, is there any indication that prim copying is more common now?
[16:20] You: oh, i don't know Trin, i haven't heard about that
<Duh, “Which Linden” is his name. That wasn't a question any more than “who's on first” is -blue>
[16:20] Trinity Coulter: I keep copying this one prim named "Object"
[16:20] Dimitrio Lewis: It appears to have entered mainstream use
[16:21] Delora Starbrook: Unfortunately, yes, it's growing more and more common.
[16:21] You: mainstream ilicit use?
[16:21] Delora Starbrook: Hair makers, jewelry makers, etc, are all terrified.
[16:21] Trinity Coulter: hair raising
[16:21] You: I mean, my alt has one to "mirror" difficult to flip build elements
[16:21] Goldie LeSuere: ask the luskwood team..
[16:21] You: actually Goldie, that's a good idea
[16:22] You: I've talked to the lusk folks repeatedly in the past about their avs being copied
[16:22] Goldie LeSuere: they had problems the last weeks with full perm (copied) avatars... which are now more or less freebies -.-
[16:22] You: would be interesting to see if they've noticed an increase
<Followed up with Michi Lumin (March, 28th) who also believes that illicit copying is on the rise and provided examples. See below -blue>
[16:21] You: but I'd never copy something that wasn't made by me
[16:21] Delora Starbrook: yes Blue, mainstream illict use. And 'mirror' is different than the ones used to make any item full-perms.
[16:21] Delora Starbrook: May I rez a prim to display a picture?
[16:21] Dimitrio Lewis: I knew something was up when I found someone trying to copy one of my items. heh
[16:22] You: yes, that's really aggrivating
[16:23] You: in the MOST general sense, you can copy anything you can see on the screen
[16:23] Goldie LeSuere: michi was talking about a new copied avatar situation last week
[16:23] Delora Starbrook: the owner of Calla has found ripped hair. the owner of ETD has found ripped hair. the owner of Catnip, Sinistyle, and several other attachment makers have found ripped copies of their works in epidemic proportions.
[16:23] You: that's the nature of computers....it's unavoidable to a large extent
[16:23] JetZep Zabelin: you can crack down on distributors, its about all you can do i think
[16:23] Delora Starbrook: I'm the only person I know in my circle that hasn't been prim copied yet (to my knowledge, at least)
[16:23] You: but LL could do more to help identify original creator for aiding people in their DMCA claims and RL suits
[16:23] Trinity Coulter: i'm curious to know how they know its an actual copy and not a good replica that someone made from scratch
[16:24] You: Jet, yeah DMCA takedown is a good first step to copyright protection
[16:24] You: I read recently about the first "virtual theft" case being settled
[16:24] Delora Starbrook: DMCA takedown doesn't help with items that are being circulated person-to-person, currently.
[16:24] You: are you guys familiar with that case? it's exactly what we're talking about
[16:24] Delora Starbrook: Yes, I'm very familiar, I assisted with that case.
[16:24] You: yes Delora, that's very true :(
[16:24] JetZep Zabelin: relly?
[16:24] Trinity Coulter: that sex bed thing?
[16:24] You: *nods
[16:24] Carl Metropolitan: The perception is that Linden Lab doesn't care about the IP of its users. People are told to file a DCMA--and those seem to vanish into a black hole. Add to that the fact that Linden Lab is currently making a huge production about protecting its own IP--that makes you all look even worse to creators struggling with content theft.
[16:24] Carl Metropolitan: No
[16:25] Carl Metropolitan: That's the Tip of the Iceberg
[16:25] You: thats one of the reasons we need to do more to identify first use
[16:25] Carl Metropolitan: That was the only case that went into the RL legal system.
[16:25] Carl Metropolitan: That would be handy--but would not completely solve the problem
[16:25] You: yeah there isn't really a 100% solution
[16:25] Goldie LeSuere: i think the easiest way to find out is the uuid of the textrue. if it is the same...
[16:25] You: in a previous life I made a living off intellectual property, so I can empathise
[16:25] JetZep Zabelin: hehe
[16:25] You: but I agree we can do more
[16:25] JetZep Zabelin: intllectual property is my only stake in RL
[16:25] Delora Starbrook: Please tell me if you believe this item would ever be purchased for 'legitimate' use, with the marketing it has?
[16:25] Delora Starbrook gestures to the picture she has rezzed.
- Picture is of object for sale marketed specifically as enabling anyone to get free copy of any product.
[16:25] Carl Metropolitan: If the textures are ripped and reupload, the date of first use is associated with the asset ID of the uploaded ripped copy. It's a good start though.
[16:26] You: yeah, it would help with inworld created content
[16:26] Goldie LeSuere: the good old mirrow :) this think helps a lot if you need to mirrow an object... *still misses the mirror function in the inbuild tool..
[16:26] You: and it's an uphill battle
[16:26] JetZep Zabelin: with dmca you just take down right? The law settles whether its right or not
[16:27] You: right Jet....DMCA also provides a date that can be used in court
[16:27] You: as it's an official filing
[16:27] You: before we get more specific....
[16:27] You: let me get more general for a minute
[16:27] JetZep Zabelin: i guess ppl dont know how to file a dmca
<Insightful blog post on the nature of “copying” online. -blue>
[16:27] Delora Starbrook: People file DMCA's constantly. They seem to disappear.
[16:27] Taryn London: Blue, that is such an awesome article
[16:28] Trinity Coulter: DCMA doesn't protect your content really, it just is a step
[16:28] You: this is a VERY interesting article on the concept of "can't protect content online"
[16:28] Delora Starbrook: Or take so long to be processed that the person accused has moved locations by the time it gets processed.
[16:28] You: it is, isnt' it Taryn.....
[16:28] Taryn London: all his stuff is great :)
[16:28] You: I really recommend everyone who makes content in SL read that
[16:28] You: I'm almost a fanatic about pushing it on creators
[16:28] JetZep Zabelin: i totally see "can't protect content online"
[16:28] Carl Metropolitan: I really recomment that you carefully consider pushing that on creators. Most read it as LL saying "fuck off" to real problems of content theft.
[16:29] You: even if you CAN'T protect your content, you can still thrive...it's a very interesting read
[16:29] Garn Conover waits for Rezzage
[16:29] You: pushing this article is not an alternative to LL working to help mitigate the problem Carl
[16:29] Delora Starbrook: Yes, I've read that article. And it's beautifully written. But... it's still a matter of seeing a huge megastore of ripped skins at the top of the classifieds, and the legitimate creators of the same skins pushed down by it.
[16:29] You: I mean to get people to read it in the same way i advise they read the government's page on copyrights
[16:30] Carl Metropolitan: I know it is not. But that's the way it is percieved. So many of LL's problems with its residents are based on lack of communication and understanding of their needs and fears.
[16:30] You: So what can LL do to help
[16:30] Carl Metropolitan: Perception is huge
[16:30] Trinity Coulter: but its interesting the way people percieve things
[16:30] You: Hi Garn :)
[16:30] Trinity Coulter: he said what i was thinking
[16:30] Carl Metropolitan: That's why I keep harping on it.
[16:30] You: didn't see your big evil self there
[16:30] Delora Starbrook: That's what I'd like to ask. What can LL do to help? Perhaps outlaw prim replicators? Perhaps take a harder stance on how DMCAs are processed?
[16:31] Garn Conover: allo Blue :), just popped on :)
[16:31] Trinity Coulter: only allow 1 prim at a time in SL
[16:31] Delora Starbrook: Revamp the permissions system so it can't be circumvented?
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: Can't be done Delora.
[16:31] Dimitrio Lewis: That's an interesting point, Carl.. there's much more communication on the blog than there used to be, yet some issues still occassionally lack the personal touch that townhalls had.
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: That's impossible.
[16:31] Delora Starbrook: Which is why I'm asking.
[16:31] You: well, we haven't outlawed bots, but we have outlawed use of copybot on other people's content (i believe that's the violation, i don't have it in front of me at the moment)
[16:31] Taryn London: It might need to be something bigger than that, though. Shut down one system, they'll make another. It still wont get at the root of the issue.
[16:31] You: so it COULD be possible for LL to adopt a social solution to that technical problem
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: More metadata on objects and textures etc would help
[16:32] Trinity Coulter: we can call them bad names
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: That's been promised ever since the original copy bot scare last year
[16:32] You: and yeah, you can't lock perms 100%
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: Quicker response to DCMA requests
[16:32] Harleen Gretzky: http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/14/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation/
<link to Linden announcement of illicit copybot use as TOS violation. -blue>
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: That would help too
[16:32] Delora Starbrook: A social solution could very well be of use, and assisting content creators a little quicker with their DMCAs, perhaps have the 'takedown' go so far as removing the items from the asset server entirely?
[16:32] You: people can get at textures, for example, by intercepting them between graphics card and monitor
[16:32] You: faster DMCA could be very much appreciated by residents I'm sure....
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: Yes. Delora is absolutely correct there.
[16:33] Trinity Coulter: I like replacing the image they get with one that says DCMA Takedown
[16:33] Dimitrio Lewis: can assets currently be frozen in some way?
[16:33] You: more DMCA Lindens could be part of that solution
[16:33] Delora Starbrook: yes, the intercept device is the bane of skin-makers everywhere. It hurts.
[16:33] You: yes Dimi with account hold
[16:33] Delora Starbrook: Is there a way to remove a particular asset from the server?
[16:33] JetZep Zabelin: maybe some kinda of settlement system to where the illegal distributor's funds generated goes to the original creator =)
[16:33] You: anyone here familiar with a recent DMCA report?
[16:33] JetZep Zabelin: L$
[16:33] You: er....yes and no Delora....
[16:33] Delora Starbrook: I have assisted with four DMCAs in the last week.
[16:33] Delora Starbrook: So yes, I'm pretty familiar.
[16:34] You: we reserve the ban of specific assets to items that threaten sims
[16:34] Carl Metropolitan: One other thing--this will be controversial--but I strongly suggest that LL start naming names. There are currently minimal social consequences to being caught copying peoples work. LL keeps any sort of suspension or ejection as a state secret. So not only is there little deterrent value, the people who are the victims don't even see justice done.
[16:34] Goldie LeSuere: back to the cornfield? hehe
[16:34] You: those apparently are processor heavy tasks and using that kind of black list for DMCA'd items might be too much for the system....not to say it can't be a long term goal
[16:34] Delora Starbrook: Could that be expanded to the DMCA? A temporary 'ban' on the item's asset id until a counter dmca is filed? or... something?
[16:34] You: but it wasn't built for that, so not currently
<This turns out to be a bit of misinfo as we have used blacklist for other items. - blue>
[16:35] You: erf...that is controvertial Carl
[16:35] Carl Metropolitan: Yes
[16:35] Carl Metropolitan: But look at the RL justice system.
[16:35] Nitram Foden: ello Jurin :)'
[16:35] You: and Delora, how long til response on DMCAs in your experience
[16:35] Delora Starbrook: Yes, naming names, ,perhaps transparancy on how the DMCAs are being processed, etc.
[16:35] Carl Metropolitan: Do they hide the names of people who are convicted?
[16:35] You: true
[16:35] Delora Starbrook: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1869
<Public Jira suggesting that Linden Lab should periodically publish statistics regarding DMCA procedures to increase transparency -blue>
[16:36] Carl Metropolitan: Are court records sealed for criminal cases (other then when a minor is involved)?
[16:36] Carl Metropolitan: There are reasons for that.
[16:36] Taryn London: Naming names would be controversial, but I dont think it's a bad idea. Screw people over, steal from them - lose your anonymity.
[16:36] You: there was an old roman themed MMO where they actually-virtually crucified those who break TOS
[16:36] Garn Conover: heh
[16:36] Delora Starbrook: Currently, we have a police blotter on the website stating who got in trouble and what the punishment was.
[16:36] Carl Metropolitan: I'm talking about naming Avatar names.
[16:36] Carl Metropolitan: Not RL names
[16:36] Delora Starbrook: Is there any way to publish similar statistics (only with names) for IP-rights violations?
[16:36] Taryn London: What is the point of avatar names though? They'll just make new accounts.
[16:36] Carl Metropolitan: No--it does not list avatar names on the police blotter
[16:37] Dimitrio Lewis: ooh public executions would bring the community together :D
[16:37] You: the problem with crucifying avs related to DMCA claims is that LL is not in a legal position to determine copyright infringement...that has to be done in RL court
[16:37] Taryn London: Most of them are new accounts made for theft etc anyway
[16:37] You: lol Dimitrio
[16:37] Carl Metropolitan: Shame.
[16:37] You: in my alt's old group we had stocks ;)
[16:37] Taryn London: lol
[16:37] You: yeah, it does seem like crucifying alts would just delight those who are doing the crime
[16:38] Carl Metropolitan: Okay--then name the RL names!
[16:38] Garn Conover: lol
[16:38] You: they could come back and throw tomato at themselves
[16:38] Carl Metropolitan: Change the TOS
[16:38] You: hmm
[16:38] Carl Metropolitan: That would deter people
[16:38] You: i wonder if there are legal implications there...
[16:38] You: it sure would lol
[16:38] Garn Conover: reselling is a huge business thats for sure
[16:38] You: that is if we had their names....same alt problem again
[16:38] Kitty Barnett: considering most accounts aren't payment verified... what would be the point?
[16:38] Carl Metropolitan: Especially if they knew that their victims would not have to got to extra lengths to get their names so they can sue them.
[16:38] Dimitrio Lewis: how about crucifying entire ISPs.... goodbye *.aol.com! (for example)
[16:38] Taryn London: There would definately be legal issues if they are under 18, so wouldn't work on the teen grid :P
[16:38] Taryn London: hahaahh Dimitrio
[16:39] You: yeah let's hang aol!
[16:39] Taryn London: I love it
[16:39] Trinity Coulter: i want death by chocolate
[16:39] You: hehe
[16:39] You: right Taryn...
[16:39] DaQbet Kish uses aol
[16:39] DaQbet Kish: please dont
[16:39] You: lol
[16:39] Carl Metropolitan: No solution is perfect. But we put people in jail in RL for things even though many are never caught.
[16:39] Delora Starbrook: Something has to be done on the adult grid though.. even if it's simply a tougher stance on DMCAs, ,faster processing, and perhaps a police-blotter style statistics report.
[16:39] JetZep Zabelin: hehe a kinda of identity exposure process o.O
[16:39] You: *nods
[16:40] You: as you guys know, i try to make these discussions known to the Lindens who work on said topics, so all brainstorming here goes to a good cause :)
[16:40] Delora Starbrook: I asked Jack a couple weeks ago who was actually working on said topics, and he never got back to me.
[16:40] You: does anyone think that "first use" dating on objects makes sense?
[16:41] Delora Starbrook: First use dating? Elaborate, please?
[16:41] You: or does the fact that you can GLIntercept and reupload ruin that
[16:41] Tracey Sassoon: yes make sense
[16:41] Carl Metropolitan: 1) speed up implementation of better metadata, 2) quicker response to DCMAs, 3) name and shame.
[16:41] Kitty Barnett: a page on what creators are responsible for would be good.... most people mistakingly believe LL should be an IP protection agency when it can't be... IP theft is a RL issue and needs to be resolved in the RL justice system
[16:41] Trinity Coulter: is that like speed dating
[16:41] JetZep Zabelin: i was gonna say objects need better dating system
[16:41] Taryn London: It sounds like a good idea for sure
[16:41] You: something on asset that indicates you had it first
[16:41] Dimitrio Lewis: It's always beneficial to keep as many records as possible
[16:41] Delora Starbrook: That could help, except GL intercept does ruin that
[16:41] You: name and shame hehe
[16:41] Taryn London: If we are speed dating here, I pick.... Nitram.
[16:41] Taryn London: xD
[16:41] You: i call it tough luv
[16:41] Carl Metropolitan: It is a problem--but the first use metadata still helps
[16:41] Trinity Coulter: so you mean when you have a copy, you know who created it?
[16:41] JetZep Zabelin: lol
[16:41] Trinity Coulter: :)
[16:42] Nitram Foden: ^.^
[16:42] Trinity Coulter: don't you already have creation date on things
[16:42] JetZep Zabelin: maybe a reference system showing where the original copy came from
[16:42] You: one of the things i see is that people are claiming that they have exclusive rights to something they bought on renderocity for example
[16:42] You: and they DON'T
[16:42] You: but they want LL to enforce their usage of (c) they don't own
[16:42] You: and we can't tell they don't actually own it
[16:43] Carl Metropolitan: But most stuff that's stolen here was created for SL
[16:43] Jaber Dill: hi
[16:43] Delora Starbrook: Yes. For instance, a well known texture store got in trouble recently with another texture company... and upon further investigation... the second company was found to have textures they shouldn't. Its a nasty chain.
[16:43] Harleen Gretzky: attack of the rusty lead pipe bots?
[16:43] You: so first use there is a bit inappropriate in that it would stop someone who did have the same right to the content
[16:43] Carla Chandrayaan: concerned content creators
[16:43] Delora Starbrook: Rusty lead pipe people are friends of mine. :)
[16:43] Eolande Elvehjem: more like attack of the pissed off designers who are sick of having their designs stolen
[16:43] Harleen Gretzky: ah, lol
[16:44] You: And yes, I'll assume that most stuff IS actually created for SL
[16:44] Delora Starbrook: Heh. We were brainstorming ways LL could assist with the theft-issue.
[16:44] You: I've known some very prolific creators that work exclusively in SL
[16:44] You: Hi Jaber, welcome to the office hour
[16:44] You: it's not REALLY hell, that's just Garn
[16:44] Trinity Coulter: well how many different ways can you make a wood texture
[16:44] Eolande Elvehjem: just taking stolen items down isn't enough
[16:45] Trinity Coulter: some will look pretty similar or derivative
[16:45] Kitty Barnett: why should LL get involved though?
[16:45] You: what would we need to do after taking them down Eolande?
[16:45] Eolande Elvehjem: at the very least, IP ban the theif
[16:45] Dimitrio Lewis: It is really sad to hear of people leaving SL over this issue, especially the pioneers
[16:45] Eolande Elvehjem: remove the UUID
[16:45] Kitty Barnett: if you host a site and someone copies it, you don't go crying to your ISP... you go to court... the ISP isn't responsible to deal with policing content
[16:45] You: Eolande, we often have no way to prove the person claiming ownerhisp is the REAL owner
[16:46] You: so we can't tell if it's REAL theft
[16:46] Eolande Elvehjem: but when it is proven
[16:46] Delora Starbrook: Kitty: LL are the folks who said 'hey, you own your own creations' and require the DMCAs to go to them. The items are hosted on LL's servers, therefore it should be handled by them.
[16:46] You: a RL court has to decide
[16:46] Carl Metropolitan: That's why better metadata is essential
[16:46] You: it rarely comes down to a court case
[16:46] Trinity Coulter: I would say SL is slightly different than a website because you make things that can only be stored here in SL
[16:46] Eolande Elvehjem: when LL themselves removes an item from someone's inventory
[16:46] Kitty Barnett: owning your own IP, means *you* are responsible for going after infringement
[16:46] Trinity Coulter: there's no way to take something and remove it from SL and store it somewhere else
[16:46] Carl Metropolitan: If two clothing or skin textures are identical, the one uploaded first is probably the original
[16:46] Eolande Elvehjem: then LL has been proven to that the item was a stolen design
[16:46] Tracey Sassoon: some kind of creation or brand name registration that creators pay a fee to have their unique brand name or creation registered ?
[16:47] Taryn London: Tracey, I love it
[16:47] You: my other favorite site on the topic :) http://www.copyright.gov/
[16:47] Carl Metropolitan: That would not work I'm afraid, Tracey--US trademark law would trump it
[16:47] JetZep Zabelin: Pick a case or two that would be worth the court case.. unless the offenders have no money
[16:47] Delora Starbrook: Yep. Copyrighting is done in the real world.
[16:47] Taryn London: it would help to prove the owner though
[16:47] Eolande Elvehjem: so if LL knows it was stolen, just removing the item itself is pointless - all the user has to do is upload it again - and they can even do it on the very same account
[16:47] Taryn London: within SL
[16:47] You: copyright law varies a bit from country to country, but most countries have agreed to one standard
[16:47] You: including US, so that site is helpful in most casres
[16:47] Tracey Sassoon: sl have its own brand name or creation registration process charging a fee to pay for the time involved
[16:48] You: Yes, that's true Eloande...blacklisting a texture doesn't mean it won't just be re-uploaded
[16:48] You: a resident did create a SL Patent office (tm)
[16:48] Delora Starbrook: Yes, and it's meant for DMCA assistance.
[16:48] JetZep Zabelin: so what happened with that copyright case recently?
[16:49] You: but I'm not sure if it's widely used or any more effective than filing DMCA through our ste
[16:49] Delora Starbrook: It was settled out of court, Jet.
[16:49] You: *site
[16:49] Eolande Elvehjem: is LL planning to take more agressive actions against content theifs in the future?
[16:49] You: that was a kind of best case scenario I think, wasn't it Delora?
[16:49] Eolande Elvehjem: is it even something that concerns the lindens?
[16:49] Dimitrio Lewis: youtube has a way of detecting copyright content now, I wonder if that technology could be used to prevent existing blacklisted textures from being re-uploaded
[16:49] You: the RL courts saying the object had to be removed from SL permanently?
[16:49] JetZep Zabelin: so theres no new case law to use from it or something like that? too bad
[16:49] Tracey Sassoon: people who have a unique brand name or store name have issues with rip artists putting their brand name or store name on their parcel so it cons people looking for that brand or unique store name accidently go to the rip store
[16:49] You: Hmmm that's intresting Dimi
[16:50] Carl Metropolitan: It concerns the lindens in that user created content has always been SL's "killer ap".
[16:50] Kitty Barnett: that would stop reuse of the oringinal UUID... which can't be blacklisted without destroying the original creator's items as well
[16:50] Kitty Barnett: wouldn't stop even
[16:50] Trinity Coulter: ok, i guess this is unsolvable
[16:50] Eolande Elvehjem: LL offers no real protection against content theft
[16:51] Trinity Coulter: next subject?
[16:51] Eolande Elvehjem: and this is a major problem
[16:51] DaQbet Kish: nothing is unsolvable IMO
[16:51] You: well i don't think it's solvable....but the objective should be to create enough friction or threat to keep people from trying
[16:51] Trinity Coulter: almost 5 pm anyway
[16:51] You: aw....seems like we just got here
[16:51] Trinity Coulter: lol
[16:51] Tracey Sassoon: a sl backed sl patent office for sl brand names or creations would be a great start and many would be willing to pay a fee
[16:52] Eolande Elvehjem: even the copy script is allowed - it's only a matter of time before the real designers are run out of business completely by theives
[16:52] Trinity Coulter: I want to patent "Object"
[16:52] Delora Starbrook: agreed, Blue. Something needs to be done to make it 'harder' or 'less appealing' to steal content.
[16:52] Garn Conover: its annoying when u find a place then they ban you because you complain
[16:52] JetZep Zabelin: thieves cant steal CUSTOM sim designs..
[16:52] Carl Metropolitan: Yes they can
[16:52] JetZep Zabelin: =)
[16:52] Dimitrio Lewis: I wonder if somebody has made a site with details of which designers have had content stolen, for reference
[16:52] Delora Starbrook: Yes, they can.
[16:52] Tracey Sassoon: if the person who created a brand name or creation can then show their sl patent registration date and number registered with a sl patent office the theif will most likely back off
[16:52] Eolande Elvehjem: is there any plans or even concern amoungst the lindens on this issue?
[16:52] Trinity Coulter: its another texture so they probably can
[16:52] JetZep Zabelin: no, custom requires consultation
[16:52] Carl Metropolitan: There are programs out there that will map a sim and export a RAW file
[16:53] Taryn London: Ok, I missed the earlier mentor meeting, better get over to this one :P See you guys later *hugs all*
[16:53] JetZep Zabelin: how are you going to FAKE a consultation?
[16:53] Delora Starbrook: Not yet. But I can have a site up within a day or two.
[16:53] Trinity Coulter: bye Taryn
[16:53] Delora Starbrook: in regards to the list of people who have content stolen.
[16:53] Trinity Coulter: we need more SL detectives
[16:53] You: Bye Taryn :)
[16:53] JetZep Zabelin: :)
[16:53] DaQbet Kish: yep me too
[16:54] Carl Metropolitan: Linden Lab needs to value user privacy less when users violate the rules.
[16:54] Nitram Foden: goes to the meeting as well, see you around people! have fun! :)
[16:54] You: well, peer pressure is a deterrent to by ripped off copies, that's for sure....
[16:54] Tracey Sassoon: i would be willing to pay a fee even it its high to protect my alady brand name so copiers dont use it to sell stolen skins from sl
[16:54] You: but of course not all consumers are going to care
[16:54] Trinity Coulter: I don't know how much those people who rip things care about peer pressure
[16:54] You: personally i wouldn't be caught dead in a rolex ripoff
[16:54] Tracey Sassoon: lol
[16:54] Delora Starbrook: I'd be willing to pay a fee to protect my products and brand-namie.
[16:54] Delora Starbrook: name*
[16:54] You: and I can't afford a rolex, so I'm watchless
[16:54] Kitty Barnett: there's trademarks for that though, Tracey
[16:54] Eolande Elvehjem: exactly, most don't, and most would have no idea even that the item they are buying was stolen
[16:54] Garn Conover: i like makin my own stuff more origional
[16:55] You: for most things though I would definitely pay for the original as I'm a supporter of creators
[16:55] Eolande Elvehjem: it's not like the theives wave "i stole these textures and designs" flags
[16:55] You: so knowing what was "real" would be important to me
[16:55] Caroline Apollo: why is the copy script allowed? if you were allowed to copy something you would have the perms to do so. and shift drag works just fine
[16:55] Eolande Elvehjem: important to you, yes. question is can you even tell a stolen skin from an original?
[16:55] JetZep Zabelin: maybe create more "legit" freebie stores
[16:55] JetZep Zabelin: kinda like flooding the market
[16:55] You: I would, however, worry about witch hunts
[16:55] Trinity Coulter: i would think the big thieves are just some computer geeks with a desire to make RL money
[16:55] You: Caroline, there are a number of legit uses for copy scripts
[16:55] Garn Conover: hey Jet, even been to Stillman?
[16:56] Delora Starbrook: Perhaps an awareness campaign could be supported by Linden Lab. There's a grassroots effort already, but it needs better backing.
[16:56] JetZep Zabelin: yes
[16:56] Eolande Elvehjem: exactly, the code even allows for "legal" rip off of our prim items
[16:56] Eolande Elvehjem: it's ridiculous
[16:56] You: that's the problem we talked about earlier.....copybot doesn't kill people, people kill people
[16:56] Carl Metropolitan: At NCI we have a large freebie collection
[16:56] Carl Metropolitan: Garn runs it. I used to run it
[16:56] Garn Conover: im in talks with Amber about expanding that so it can be shared elsewhere
[16:56] Delora Starbrook: prim replicators though... they circumvent permissions.
[16:56] Carl Metropolitan: We try VERY hard not to have anything that's ripped off
[16:56] Eolande Elvehjem: that's the weakest excuse i've heard Blue
[16:56] Caroline Apollo: if you were supposed to copy something wouldnt you be able to do so without a script?
[16:56] You: that would be an illegal use of them, yes
[16:56] Delora Starbrook: no transfer items become copy/transfer.
[16:56] Carl Metropolitan: But I can guarantee you that somewhere in our freebie colection there are stolen items
[16:56] Eolande Elvehjem: there's nothing to stop people who misuse that
[16:57] Dimitrio Lewis: that's the worst part Trinity... designers put thousands of hours of work into their designs to make enough money to pay the rent, and have it all stolen by people who have nothing invested in SL
[16:57] JetZep Zabelin: kewl.. i was thinking maybe there can be a away to keep people from finding the bogus freebie places selling stolen stuff
[16:57] You: Eolande, consider orbiters in SL
[16:57] Garn Conover: i know if 2
[16:57] Carl Metropolitan: There's no way to tell in some cases
[16:57] You: against the rules to orbit people on safe land
[16:57] Garn Conover: but the creator has ok;d them
[16:57] You: but totally okay in battle sims
[16:57] Carla Chandrayaan: Sorry, folks. I have to go. very ill family member RL
[16:57] Eolande Elvehjem: see ya Carla
[16:57] Kitty Barnett: the only way you can keep someone from copying a book is to keep them from reading it... which makes for a useless book.... you can't stop copying because it needs to be "read"
[16:57] Delora Starbrook: bye Carla
[16:57] Trinity Coulter: bye Carla!
[16:57] You: so you don't dumb down SL for the lowest common denominator by removing the scripting calls that make orbiters possible
[16:57] Trinity Coulter: lets poke out their eyes
[16:57] Caroline Apollo: what about view admin options? is there anything someone other than a linden really needs that for?
[16:57] Delora Starbrook: yet, Kitty, copied books are protected... and to copy a book is punishable.
[16:58] Trinity Coulter: or have kitty claw them out
[16:58] Kitty Barnett: I can do that :p *sharpens her claws*
[16:58] You: but I know what you're saying....when an item is used for serious grief, it's harder to justify the greater good it might do
[16:58] Trinity Coulter: yay!
[16:58] Trinity Coulter: pokey poke
[16:58] Eolande Elvehjem: but to allow these scripts to be out there for others to abuse with absolutely no checks or balances is extremely careless
[16:58] JetZep Zabelin: ahh i didnt know that before I used to orbit ppl who caged me o.O
[16:58] Tracey Sassoon: the clone a matic yeah
[16:58] Trinity Coulter: we need more illiterate users
[16:59] Eolande Elvehjem: do you lindens care at all what happens to us designers?
[16:59] You: limiting prim rezzers would kill hundreds of legitimate uses
[16:59] Garn Conover: yea what in the heck is orbiters or cagers good for?- even on battle sims they be pointless
[16:59] Eolande Elvehjem: if we go down what happens to the SL economy?
[16:59] Eolande Elvehjem: the linden dollar will crash
[16:59] Carl Metropolitan: The impression you are giving is that you don't.
[16:59] You: of course we do Eolande, but not at the expense of everyone else...honestly we really do think about all the possibilities
[16:59] You: this is a very serious issue and a very very difficult one
[16:59] Trinity Coulter: one day it will become so bad that it will force some solution... until then we will wait
[17:00] Carl Metropolitan: Why does LL expect its users to respect its IP, if LL will not respect User's IP?
[17:00] Delora Starbrook: it's already at the point where it's bad enough that it needs a solution.
[17:00] Eolande Elvehjem: shouldn't the fact that copy scripts uses are way too potentially dangerous and do much more harm than good be any reason to disallow them?
[17:00] You: as our discussion here today shows, even the most strident opponents of copying admit there is very little that can be done
[17:00] You: so we need to work on the things we CAN do
[17:00] Carl Metropolitan: From a public relations point of view, the new trademark policies are making people ask that question.
[17:00] Dimitrio Lewis: I don't know what I'd do if I were in LL's position.
[17:00] You: and one of those things is better enforcement
[17:00] You: disabling scripting calls is really not a solution when there are other ways to get at the same content if you're willing
[17:01] Eolande Elvehjem: so how is LL planning tobetter enforce the rules?
[17:01] JetZep Zabelin: maybe some type of legal liason for residents who want to sue another resident in RL
[17:01] Trinity Coulter: you have to work with the people who make video cards and things and prevent the program from being able to be eavesdropped into
[17:01] You: inhibiting all of SL for very little benefit is not sensible
[17:01] Kitty Barnett: first life is down for maintenance
[17:01] You: Eolande, we made illicit use of copyright an offence
[17:01] You: that's a good example
[17:01] Delora Starbrook: my first life asset server blew up.
[17:01] Eolande Elvehjem: i'm not suggesting disabling scripting, i'm suggesting patching up the copy script problem
[17:02] Carl Metropolitan: Please keep in mind that just because a solution isn't 100% effective doesn't mean that it's not worth doing.
[17:02] Eolande Elvehjem: sure, but the amount of hoops you have to jump through and the months it takes to do that is ridiculous
[17:02] Trinity Coulter: I think it was Torley who quoted another Linden saying the underlying system of delivering textures and other things is inherently unsecure right now
[17:02] You: I'm not a developer so I can't speak to the effectiveness of disabling aspects of the scripting language to stop copy scripts from working
[17:02] Trinity Coulter: which is why they took out the handy texture key thingie
[17:03] You: and yes, you can get textures despite anything we do in SL, with GLintercept
[17:03] Trinity Coulter: to make people feel better :)
[17:03] You: it's impossible for us to stop that because it doesn't happen here
[17:03] JetZep Zabelin: i still think its the nutty professors encouraging students who don't know better
[17:03] JetZep Zabelin: =P
[17:03] You: hehe Jet
[17:03] You: well I know it's a painful topic and I appreciate everyone's feedback
[17:04] You: I'm going to make this transcript available to all Lindens in the hopes that we can generate more discussion
[17:04] Trinity Coulter: the eye poking might help
[17:04] Eolande Elvehjem: i would really appreciate it
[17:04] Trinity Coulter: we need to poke someone
[17:04] Eolande Elvehjem: it's very very hard to be heard
[17:04] Trinity Coulter: Pokey Linden
[17:04] You: thank you heheh
[17:04] Kitty Barnett pokes Trini
[17:04] You: yes pokey Linden
[17:04] Trinity Coulter: OWWW!
[17:04] Kitty Barnett: there you go :p
[17:04] Delora Starbrook: Thank you, Blue. I'm going to make this transcript available as well to content creators and other interested parties.
[17:04] Trinity Coulter: I want to go there and poke him
[17:04] Dimitrio Lewis: Pokèlindens?
[17:05] Trinity Coulter: :))
[17:05] Trinity Coulter: Primachu
[17:05] Dimitrio Lewis: haha
[17:05] You: PikaBlue?
[17:05] Tracey Sassoon: mabye a blog to let all the creators know this is something important and will be addressed and those who are stealing creations need to start taking note that this is an issue that is important some hope to creators in sl to see they are heard
[17:05] Dimitrio Lewis: PIIIKKKAAAAAA..... CRASH!!!!
[17:05] Eolande Elvehjem: i really hope more signifigant protection is afforded to the designers of SL, or you'll watch us one by one disappear and your economy crash out
[17:05] Delora Starbrook: a blog message would be very nice. A bit of hope for us.
[17:05] Trinity Coulter pokes Kitty back
[17:06] Eolande Elvehjem: yes, i'd love to hear anything from LL that indicates they are even hearing us
[17:06] You: I'll propose that as well....thank you
[17:06] Siddean Munro: It is good to know that someone is listening
[17:06] Tracey Sassoon: this is a big topic in most groups of creators the past weeks the main topic
[17:06] Eolande Elvehjem: months Tracey
[17:06] You: well....hopefully you guysh will definitely continue to attend office hours
[17:06] Tracey Sassoon: months yes :)
[17:06] Garn Conover: hey Blue, poke the Lindens into posting their transcripts-
[17:06] You: we get lots of great feedback
[17:06] Garn Conover: everything i find is 07
[17:06] Trinity Coulter: guysh, are you getting sloshed Blue?
[17:06] You: yes, that's on my to do list this week Garn :D
[17:07] Dimitrio Lewis: It's great that you're distributing it, Blue. Sometimes it feels like lindens are out of touch with everyday life in SL.
[17:07] JetZep Zabelin: these are great brainstorming kinda seessios for sl
[17:08] Trinity Coulter: Blue, I have an idea
[17:08] You: take care all :)
[17:08] Trinity Coulter: ripped from the Linden Tao
[17:08] Eolande Elvehjem: this is my opportunity to make something of my circumstances
[17:08] Dimitrio Lewis: See you next time Blue!
[17:08] You: what's that Trin
[17:08] Tracey Sassoon: tc blue
[17:09] Garn Conover: cya Blue :)
[17:09] Trinity Coulter: post 1 achievement per week regarding IP protection or something on the blog
[17:09] JetZep Zabelin: *bye!
[17:09] Tracey Sassoon: yes
[17:09] Tracey Sassoon: yay
[17:09] Eolande Elvehjem: thank you for listening
[17:09] Trinity Coulter: incremental progress
[17:09] Yeti Bing: have fun, Blue! thanks for meeting! :)
[17:09] Tracey Sassoon: thanks blue yes for listening
[17:09] Carl Metropolitan: Bye Blue
[17:09] You: oh hmmm....yeah that's not a bad idea. We should do that with all support metrics
[17:09] Trinity Coulter: Make Weekly Progress We believe that every person should make specific, visible individual contributions that moves the company forward every week
[17:09] Delora Starbrook gave you clone-o-matic.
[17:10] You: I'll look more into those things, thanks Delora
[17:10] Trinity Coulter: bye Blue
[17:10] You: kkbai ;)