User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2010-07-22

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List of Attendees

  • Ardy Lay
  • Enkidu Linden
  • Erinyse PlanerErinyse
  • Erinyse Planer
  • fails browser
  • Latif KhalifaLatif
  • Latif Khalifa
  • pepita Avelino
  • submit a
  • Techwolf Lupindo

Transcript

[10:57] Techwolf Lupindo: Lovly backhoe fade we had today. :-)
[10:59] Enkidu Linden: hey tech
[11:01] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi Enkidu
[11:02] Enkidu Linden: quiet day today!
[11:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Yep. YOu can blame that on the problem on the grid.
[11:07] Latif Khalifa: hello :)
[11:07] Enkidu Linden: hey latif
[11:07] Enkidu Linden: yeah i don't know what happened earlier
[11:08] Latif Khalifa: i told you not the press the big red button :P
[11:08] Techwolf Lupindo: BackHoe fade. Another LInden commeted on a fibor cut.
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: can't resist the big red button
[11:08] Techwolf Lupindo: :-P
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: ..attached to the backhoe
[11:08] Latif Khalifa: hahah
[11:10] Techwolf Lupindo: When I was 12, I help my dad out digging a long water line from the road to the house. Dad left me for a while and found out later he stumbled into the house laughing to my mom, "He can run that backhoe better then my hired help". :-)
[11:10] Latif Khalifa: so Enkidu, still working on a sekrit-project-that-shall-not-be-spoken-about yet? ;)
[11:10] Latif Khalifa: hey ardy
[11:11] Ardy Lay: Hello
[11:11] Enkidu Linden: totally!
[11:11] Enkidu Linden: hey ardy
[11:11] Latif Khalifa: didn't Philip say something about planning and developing in the open? :P
[11:12] Ardy Lay: "different server version" ....
[11:12] Latif Khalifa: i thought everything was on 1.40.4 now
[11:12] Ardy Lay: Wasn't expecting that.
[11:12] Ardy Lay: I just left Linden Estate Services.
[11:12] Latif Khalifa: ah
[11:13] Latif Khalifa: for some reason it's on 1.38.6
[11:14] Ardy Lay: Ran out of new bits and had to recycle some of the old ones. :-)
[11:14] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[11:14] Enkidu Linden: whew
[11:14] Enkidu Linden: back
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: sorry for the delay
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: yeah, openness
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: i love transparency
[11:16] Enkidu Linden: but we are still transitioning, and to be honest there's always going to be some business reason for making this or that project go quiet. we just try to argue against it and work it out
[11:16] Latif Khalifa: you can always invent some business reason to go dark, that's not difficult at all :)
[11:17] Enkidu Linden: i know! we must be vigilant against it
[11:18] Latif Khalifa: i hope philip stays long enough to actually implement the strategy he outlined in his blog post
[11:18] Latif Khalifa: because i think it's a good strategy :)
[11:18] Enkidu Linden: me too
[11:18] Enkidu Linden: so you guys have anything in particular you want to talk about w.r.t technology or features?
[11:19] Enkidu Linden: if not we can just chat :)
[11:19] Latif Khalifa: i don't know what you are working on (and are allowed to talk about)
[11:20] Ardy Lay: I don't know what you do so really don't know what to ask. :-)
[11:20] Enkidu Linden: well i can say that i've been working on something web based but viewer related
[11:20] Latif Khalifa: ah stuff like dahsboard in viewre2
[11:20] Techwolf Lupindo: openwebgl or webgl?
[11:21] Latif Khalifa: tech, web stuff embeded in the viewer
[11:21] Enkidu Linden: not the dashboard speifically but similar
[11:21] Latif Khalifa: lemme guess :P intergrated marketplace in the viewer? :P
[11:21] Enkidu Linden: webgl: i wish. that stuff looks like fun
[11:22] Latif Khalifa: well judging from that Philips post LL wants to get more into virtual goods
[11:22] Latif Khalifa: so i wouldn't be surprised if you end up embedding marketplace somehow in the viewer ;)
[11:22] Techwolf Lupindo: Just don't replace the inventory floater with a web page. That will kill some nice features that TPV have.
[11:23] Latif Khalifa: (i think emphasis on web shopping for sl is a really bad idea btw)
[11:24] Enkidu Linden: tech, i think you're the first person i've ever heard say to keep that around
[11:24] Latif Khalifa: web is slow
[11:24] Latif Khalifa: i would agree with tech
[11:25] Enkidu Linden: in-viewer marketplace would be interesting but there's no much screen real estate to create a full ecommerce experience in
[11:25] Latif Khalifa: try person search via web google thingie in viewer2 vs. old embedded on in 1.23.5
[11:25] Enkidu Linden: but we have experience design people who could figure that out
[11:25] Latif Khalifa: 1.x beats the performance 100x fold
[11:26] Latif Khalifa: hm, experienced desingers?
[11:26] Latif Khalifa: many would disagree on quality of designs enkidu
[11:26] Enkidu Linden: that's true
[11:26] Techwolf Lupindo: Case in point, viewer 2.0 UI.
[11:26] Latif Khalifa: and search
[11:26] Enkidu Linden: actually i'm glad you mentioned the 1.x thing
[11:27] Enkidu Linden: i've been having some discussions with some viewer devs about strategies for fixing that kind of thing
[11:27] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/41707/screenshot-1.jpg
[11:27] Latif Khalifa: the viewer2 ui and webbified search look pretty, but are failures usability wise
[11:27] Techwolf Lupindo: LL should do some polls around the grid and resedents and ask what search functions they use the most. How many actually use the "search all" web page?
[11:27] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17523
[11:27] fails browser test
[11:27] Enkidu Linden: i think the problem really boils down to the expectations being different when you use desktop software vs. web browsing
[11:28] Ardy Lay: Stuff like that?
[11:28] Enkidu Linden: tech: i totally agree!
[11:28] Enkidu Linden: i have no idea why anyone would ever search All
[11:28] Ardy Lay: Busy people ignore polls.
[11:28] Latif Khalifa: Enkidu, yes, but we already had fast desktop software, so why replace it with slow web version?
[11:29] Enkidu Linden: although that doesn't mean people don't use it
[11:29] Enkidu Linden: ardy, one sec while i load and read
[11:29] Latif Khalifa: search is horribly broken anyway, makes no sense. why are top places searching "all" and when searching places different?
[11:30] Ardy Lay: The text is kinda vague so I added a screenshot after I found it.
[11:30] Techwolf Lupindo: When I do a search, i'me using serching for a person name to pull up the profile, places to find a store on the grid. The other search tabs in 1.4.x viewers came in handy at times.
[11:30] Techwolf Lupindo: The land search tab I often use to get current maket rates.
[11:31] Techwolf Lupindo: market
[11:31] Latif Khalifa: yes, two most used search things are places and people
[11:31] Enkidu Linden: not sure i can help with that jira, ardy, but i can bring it up to some folks
[11:32] Ardy Lay: Was just wondering if it was in your area. I am finding that issue makes my evaluation of search relevance kinda painful.
[11:32] Enkidu Linden: actually the jira gives me an idea. i think i'll hit browserscope with the v2 browser
[11:32] Techwolf Lupindo: Groups would get a lot more use if there was more then 25. I rarely use group search. I did use it a lot when I first got on SL.
[11:32] Ardy Lay: And I really do miss place profiles listing all the objects set to sho in search with coordinates and "GO" buttons.
[11:33] Latif Khalifa: ardy "upgrade" to snowglobe 1.4
[11:33] Ardy Lay: Now I am having to load them in another browser, which makes the whole "upgrade to viewer 2" quite counterproductive.
[11:34] Enkidu Linden: why are you evaluating search, ardy?
[11:34] Latif Khalifa: it's more like downgrade :P
[11:34] Enkidu Linden: or, what is it you hope to learn?
[11:34] Techwolf Lupindo: I think classifieds and "All" should be combined as if I'me doing a search all, I don't mind relevent ads nearby that I might be intested in. Like google ad words.
[11:34] Ardy Lay: Enkidu, sales plummeted when the GSA6 was installed.
[11:34] Latif Khalifa: i lost 50% since april :(
[11:35] Ardy Lay: I hope to learn how to make my parcels show up in search when people are looking for the items for sale there.
[11:35] Enkidu Linden: ahh
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: what have you learned?
[11:36] Ardy Lay: If people search for our business name they get all manner of other search results, some of which I can't even see our name in.
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: i heard there were some recent edits to the search guidelines on the wiki that might be useful
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: let me find it
[11:37] Enkidu Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Search_Guidelines
[11:37] Ardy Lay: I have to guess that there is an object set to sho in search on that parcel but I cannot see it in Viewer 2.
[11:37] Ardy Lay: Yes, read that.
[11:38] Enkidu Linden: hmm
[11:38] Enkidu Linden: not as much new stuff as i asssumed
[11:38] Ardy Lay: The search results display in Viewer to chops off the individual parcel documents so we cannot see the objects listed on that parcel.
[11:38] Ardy Lay: Search for Aardwolf
[11:39] Ardy Lay: See the place that comes up?
[11:39] Ardy Lay: Can you tell by looking at that WHY that place comes up?
[11:40] Enkidu Linden: luskwood?
[11:40] pepita Avelino: help i need leave at other place
[11:40] Ardy Lay: Yes
[11:40] Ardy Lay: Luskwood
[11:40] Enkidu Linden: no i totally do not
[11:40] Techwolf Lupindo: L$ Aardwolf Avatar 212, 250, 26 GO
[11:40] Techwolf Lupindo: That's why
[11:40] Ardy Lay: You only see a little of the parcel page there, have a look at this: http://world.secondlife.com/place/dcf98dc0-66b9-bb6e-6e79-a2f346b3c43a
[11:41] Enkidu Linden: right
[11:41] Ardy Lay: Now can you see why that place shows up?
[11:41] Enkidu Linden: yes
[11:41] Ardy Lay: Viewer 2 has blinded us to why search offers us the results it does.
[11:41] Enkidu Linden: that is weird
[11:42] Ardy Lay: What's weird is that somebody designed it this way.
[11:42] Enkidu Linden: what's the world.secondlife.com url to your parcel?
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: i gave up on trying to figure out the way search ranks results
[11:42] Ardy Lay: That is one of my parcels.
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: they make no sense at all
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: except if rand() is the function used
[11:43] Ardy Lay: Oh, you mean the map coordinates?
[11:43] Enkidu Linden: i think i misunderstood
[11:43] Ardy Lay: copy shortcut from the teleport button: Tehama (212,253,26)
[11:43] Latif Khalifa: http://world.secondlife.com/place/dcf98dc0-66b9-bb6e-6e79-a2f346b3c43a
[11:43] Enkidu Linden: what were you expecting to the the first result of the search?
[11:43] Ardy Lay: This is what I have learned by examining search.
[11:44] Ardy Lay: Oh, that is one search keyword for which I have enginered a top result.
[11:44] Ardy Lay: Seems nobody else sells aardwolf avatars. :-)
[11:45] Ardy Lay: Search for "Luskwood" was kiving very misleading results.
[11:45] Latif Khalifa: Ardy, also they killed picks from search, without any warning. That sort of "we change the rules of the games on a whim" is what's making doing business on SL next to impossible
[11:45] Ardy Lay: Picks was hurting us, not helping.
[11:45] Enkidu Linden: ah
[11:45] Latif Khalifa: still, unannouced changes make for volitle conditions
[11:46] Ardy Lay: Ah, Luskwood as a search key is giving better results now.
[11:46] Latif Khalifa: one cannot operate in such environment
[11:46] Techwolf Lupindo: maps.secondlfie.com vs. surl. Surl, click onece, location pops up, click tp. Maps: click link once to bring up browser, click link in browser to pop up a floater, click ok in that floater, go back to clicnt and then can click tp on the loacation thats pops up.
[11:46] Ardy Lay: google.com come is volotile and unpredictable but they do make smaller, incrimental changes
[11:47] Enkidu Linden: that is a great point
[11:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Who though maps was better?
[11:47] Enkidu Linden: part of our problem is that the transition to the GSAs was like going from search in 2002 to search in 2010
[11:48] Latif Khalifa: using GSA and trying to shove it to SL was a bad idea in the first place. google is doing lexical analysis of long texts, in sl we're limited to couple of hunder chars in the place description
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: uh huh
[11:48] Latif Khalifa: it's just not the right tool for the task
[11:48] Ardy Lay: GSA6 here is crawling parcel profile documents.
[11:48] Latif Khalifa: you don't have that much text to give it to analuze
[11:48] Erinyse PlanerErinyse Planer waves now shes finally able to get into sl
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: that's true
[11:49] Ardy Lay: That's why showing the document is important to list rankings.
[11:49] Latif Khalifa: place profile?
[11:49] Enkidu Linden: hi erinyse
[11:49] Ardy Lay: People click, documents get scored.
[11:49] Erinyse Planer: got a very very intresting bug for you enkidu
[11:49] Latif Khalifa: what?
[11:49] Ardy Lay: If they are clicking but not seeing the whole document the scores are useless.
[11:49] Enkidu Linden: yeah, i'm not sure how that part of the GSA works at all
[11:49] Latif Khalifa: GSA doesn't work :P
[11:50] Ardy Lay: I am finding that it does
[11:50] Erinyse Planer: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2489
[11:50] submit a case link on suspended account login page can cause tickets filed to be filed under another account
[11:50] Ardy Lay: Just results are displayed very poorly and scores on them are reflecting that.
[11:50] Enkidu Linden: i think your point about the size of the text searched is quite good
[11:51] Latif Khalifa: and lack of any links
[11:51] Latif Khalifa: GSA feeds of off linke
[11:51] Latif Khalifa: and the only links we had "profile picks" got removed
[11:51] Latif Khalifa: i have no idea how it could possibly produce relevant results
[11:52] Ardy Lay: Links is just one of about 14 indexing vectors used by GSA6, depending on local configuration.
[11:52] Techwolf Lupindo: I've allway commented on hiring google to do the search, they know how to do search. But I never did push using a turnkey system as SL is very uniquink and requires experts to figure it out.
[11:52] Enkidu Linden: erinyse: i don't work in that group but i'd expect that to get triaged soon, if it hasn't already
[11:52] Ardy Lay: GSA6 can function in a total absence of HTML in documents.
[11:52] Techwolf Lupindo: But Latif hit the nail on the head there as one problem of the search.
[11:52] Latif Khalifa: Ardy, but how it can possibly rank relevance?
[11:52] Erinyse Planer: hsnt been no one wants to look at it *Sighs*
[11:53] Latif Khalifa: without links and without only few hundred chars
[11:53] Enkidu Linden: erinyse: sorry, i don't know when those guys do their triage
[11:53] Techwolf Lupindo: Bacially, SL needs a good test search engine, not an html search engine.
[11:54] Techwolf Lupindo: test=text
[11:54] Ardy Lay: Latif, links only add to a document's relevance as part of a formula. It's only valid if documents actyally do link to one another is a beneficial manner.
[11:54] Latif Khalifa: Ardy, you are avoiding the question
[11:54] Ardy Lay: GSA6 is NOT designed for HTML documents only.
[11:54] Latif Khalifa: there are no documents
[11:54] Ardy Lay: Sure there are. Each parcel profile is a document.
[11:54] Latif Khalifa: there is only a place name and a few hunderd chars of place description
[11:55] Ardy Lay: Each region profile is a document.
[11:55] Latif Khalifa: but how can you rank it bases on less than one full sentece?
[11:55] Latif Khalifa: how do tell what's relevent
[11:55] Erinyse Planer: I agree with latif on this
[11:56] Ardy Lay: Well, ir parses the document, including the objects set for sale on the parcel.
[11:56] Latif Khalifa: lol
[11:56] Latif Khalifa: ok
[11:57] Ardy Lay: The listings are scored and presented and the scores are adjusted based on why listings the person searching clicks on.
[11:57] Ardy Lay: Problem is, they don't get to see all of what is indexed.
[11:57] Latif Khalifa: i am asking how they are sorted
[11:57] Latif Khalifa: and ardy says "they are sorted" lol
[11:57] Ardy Lay: I said scored
[11:58] Latif Khalifa: and the difference is?
[11:58] Techwolf Lupindo: web search is based on text, links, and keywords in a rather complex formula to base rand on. keywords have very low scores in that forumla. Now in SL, the parcel discriptions, object names and so on are nothgin but keywords to the search engine, there is no other date to add to that foruma, the SL search breaks badly due to ranking is based on keywords and nothing else.
[11:58] Ardy Lay: Collating sequence derivation from composite scores is on of the many custom tuning features of GSA6 and I don't know how LL has it tuned.
[11:59] Ardy Lay: You are confusing GSA6 with what Google.com does.
[11:59] Latif Khalifa: judging by the results it produces it's base on rand() function and it's pretty useless
[11:59] Latif Khalifa: and every merchant i spoke to has lost 50% of the sales since april
[11:59] Ardy Lay: Latif, give us your parcel profile page URL.
[12:00] Ardy Lay: Our sales are down too which is why I am examineing this, not just whining about it.
[12:00] Latif Khalifa: lol
[12:00] Ardy Lay: Latif, give us your parcel profile page URL.
[12:00] Latif Khalifa: it's adult stuff, i won't
[12:00] Ardy Lay: OKay
[12:01] Erinyse Planer: im just pulling my stuff off xstreet
[12:01] Ardy Lay: I don't search for adult stuff. I thought you sold shoes or something.
[12:01] Latif Khalifa: well that do
[12:01] Latif Khalifa: too
[12:02] Latif Khalifa: i'm going to jump over to yoz to see what's up
[12:02] Latif KhalifaLatif Khalifa waves to all
[12:02] Techwolf Lupindo: yoz hasn't show up yet.
[12:03] Enkidu Linden: thanks guys, i gotta head out
[12:03] Enkidu Linden: see you all!
[12:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Yoz running late, she twitter about 12.:15

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