User:Jack Linden/Office Hour/2009-04-09

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  • [11:00 SLT] Rem Nightfire: Jack, I trust you when you say you have made progress talking to the microbarons. When can we expect to see the fruits of this progress, and what is the plan for rejoining these microparcels to adjoining land?
  • [11:00 SLT] Marianne McCann: Jack - what is the status on the new infohubs (Helfell, Hyanisport, Arapaima, Barbarossa, and Hau Koda)?
  • [11:00 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Yes. When will we see some effects?
  • [11:01 SLT] Jack Linden: hey Rem.. things are moving along well, the volume of micro parcels is still heading down but not as quickly as we'd like so we have more to do there
  • [11:01 SLT] Yann Dufaux: I have my third coffee so it's perfect:)
  • [11:01 SLT] Marianne McCann: Someone has an open mic!
  • [11:01 SLT] Rem Nightfire: the ones who own the most expensive and extensive plots are not budging jack
  • [11:01 SLT] Yann Dufaux: loll, quand je me réveille, ça me prends le café:)
  • [11:01 SLT] Drongle McMahon: jack. You say it's moving, but where can we see the evidence?
  • [11:01 SLT] Jack Linden: Most of the micro-barons are being very understanding and open to working with us, but we still need to see that progress being made
  • [11:02 SLT] Rem Nightfire: timeframe?
  • [11:02 SLT] Jack Linden: Drongle, i guess it depends where you are on the Mainland.. i've certainly been getting feedback from people that things are turning
  • [11:02 SLT] Jack Linden: But it's not dramatic, but more gradual
  • [11:02 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Dave Herbst was complaining that he couldn't actually get in contact with anyone at LL to make progress
  • [11:02 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Can you give us any numbers....extrapolations?
  • [11:03 SLT] Rem Nightfire: so gradual i dont really notice it jack, and i have over 40 cut areas
  • [11:03 SLT] Jack Linden: Marianne, the bay city one is the next we are tackling.. Blondin Linden is drawing up plans to improve hubs generally
  • [11:03 SLT] Drongle McMahon: WB Melodie
  • [11:03 SLT] Melodie Darwin: ty
  • [11:03 SLT] Qie Niangao: Well, has anybody seen any progress from Prince/Footman, or Austin Hallard? Or anybody *big* ?
  • [11:03 SLT] Jack Linden: Drongle, i'll ask for the latest numbers now.. hopefully they will land in my IMs before the end of the meeting
  • [11:03 SLT] Marianne McCann: Cool, Jack. Are the others set to open eventually as well? I assume Arapaima is the Ursula one, of course
  • [11:04 SLT] Drongle McMahon: capitalist pigs?
  • [11:04 SLT] Rem Nightfire: no they havent budged thats my point
  • [11:04 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Well Capitalist Pigs prices are down
  • [11:04 SLT] Jack Linden: Yeah Marianne, they are all on the plan
  • [11:04 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Well near me they are down, still expensive mind yoou
  • [11:04 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Not near me.
  • [11:05 SLT] Jack Linden: okay some numbers for you..
  • [11:05 SLT] Drongle McMahon: The only trend I see is an increase in the bottom price for 16s.....the microplotters are benefitting.
  • [11:06 SLT] Jack Linden: currently there are 14300 16m parcels for sale.. down from 22,000 before christmas.. and 16,930 before the land cutting blog post
  • [11:06 SLT] Rem Nightfire: are they holding out for a trade deal jack?
  • [11:06 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Yeah numbers, 388, 799 and 900 seem common
  • [11:06 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Hmm
  • [11:06 SLT] Rem Nightfire: many micros were taken off the market, but they are still there
  • [11:06 SLT] Equinox Pinion: 14000 on 5000 mainland sims is almost 3 per sim
  • [11:07 SLT] Rem Nightfire: are there any plans for dealing with those?
  • [11:07 SLT] Jack Linden: There has been some discussion on trades... large volumes of 16m parcels in exchange for large single parcels, on the strict understanding that they don't then do the same again
  • [11:07 SLT] Indigo Mertel: Hello!
  • [11:07 SLT] Indigo Mertel: Hi Susie :)
  • [11:07 SLT] Arawn Spitteler wonders how 14,300 and 22,000 compare to actual numbers of 4X4s
  • [11:07 SLT] Rem Nightfire: that would work
  • [11:07 SLT] Rem Nightfire: how about any plans for rejoining those parcels?
  • [11:07 SLT] Jack Linden: Arawn, we have those numbers too of course, but i don't have them to hand right now
  • [11:07 SLT] Indigo Mertel: Hi Jack
  • [11:08 SLT] Ciaran Laval: That should work, how about us being able to request they get moved into a line?
  • [11:08 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: So since your post you've eliminated 2000ish of 16000 parcels? That's pretty weak
  • [11:08 SLT] Drongle McMahon gave you JLOH20090408.
  • [11:08 SLT] Ciaran Laval: I mean a line of parcels so they don't have parcels that ruin plot shapes
  • [11:08 SLT] Jack Linden: Rem, good question! as we get all these tiny parcels back we're going to have to do something sensible with them.. we've been looking at how best to contact neighbours to give them first option
  • [11:08 SLT] Rem Nightfire: thanks jack
  • [11:09 SLT] Rem Nightfire: what about all the ones nfs - dr destiny comes to mind....
  • [11:09 SLT] Jack Linden: Elanthius.. it's a start. As I've said before, we know we have to push those numbers down much more - and we'll get there, but it's a process rather than us simply flipping a switch
  • [11:10 SLT] Arawn Spitteler wonders if it might help, to allow fractional tier, for 4X4 purchasers
  • [11:10 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: I mean you're just talking about parcels that are for sale. It really would be a flip of a switch to take them off the market
  • [11:10 SLT] Alexxa Despres: Jack, I saw someone mention earlier that they were having a hard time getting in touch with Linden. I have an issue regarding LAND SEARCH that has been going on for nearly 2 weeks now. I have been promised and promised that i would be contacted. I submitted a ticket and spoke to 4 member of the Concierge team.
  • [11:10 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran, managing them into better positions - agreed, where that makes sense it would help
  • [11:11 SLT] Marianne McCann: hi Holo!
  • [11:11 SLT] Rem Nightfire: Jack, thank you and the team for putting a stop to large scale land cutting. However, what we have seen in the past few weeks are many instances of small scale commercial cutting - the dividing of one larger parcel into 4 to 6 smaller ones ranging from 96 sqm. to 16 sqm. that are then set for sale. Are these commercial cuts deemed ok by LL, or are they just getting under your radar?
  • [11:11 SLT] Alexxa Despres: Can you please tell me what i have to do to get an answer, jack?
  • [11:11 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heya :) and everyone who hasnt rezzed
  • [11:11 SLT] Jack Linden: Alexxa, sorry to hear that.. but hard for me to deal with specific support requests in an open meeting. You'd really need to go through support
  • [11:12 SLT] Alexxa Despres: I have Jack...
  • [11:12 SLT] Alexxa Despres: for 2 weeks
  • [11:12 SLT] Equinox Pinion: make a complain ticket alexxa...that helps most of the time :)
  • [11:12 SLT] Alexxa Despres: TY Equinox
  • [11:12 SLT] Alexxa Despres: :-)
  • [11:12 SLT] Equinox Pinion: :)
  • [11:12 SLT] Holocluck Henly: eep
  • [11:13 SLT] Jack Linden: Rem.. the data we pull is universal, so things don't drop under our radar, however, we have to focus energy on the biggest wins right now as we have a fixed resource level.
  • [11:13 SLT] Equinox Pinion: when will the statistic page be up again?
  • [11:13 SLT] Jack Linden: But all of them will ultimately be dealt with and if you see clear cut cases, do AR them
  • [11:13 SLT] Jack Linden: I think we're hoping for stats to be up by end of April
  • [11:13 SLT] Equinox Pinion: good news
  • [11:13 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: I see you guys even stopped publishing the underlying data for the statistics page for the last couple of months
  • [11:13 SLT] Rem Nightfire: so originally we were told we didnt have to AR cuts - is that changed and is it appropriate to AR them when we find them?
  • [11:14 SLT] Equinox Pinion: <makes a note to remind jack again end of april>
  • [11:14 SLT] Jack Linden: Rem, ARing just highlights them, we already see it all in the data but where you see blatant cutting that has recently happened it can be helpful
  • [11:14 SLT] Jack Linden: ARing old cut areas is less useful as we already know about them
  • [11:14 SLT] Rem Nightfire: ok thanks
  • [11:15 SLT] Holocluck Henly raises hand timidly
  • [11:15 SLT] Jack Linden: hey holocluck
  • [11:15 SLT] Jack Linden: ask away!
  • [11:16 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heya - question - how are the parcels determined for auction? Is it a queue or a random selection
  • [11:16 SLT] Jack Linden: it's a bit of both actually. every parcel that comes back to us has a story so we tend to wait a while before we wipe them and sell them in case people pop up and tell us that it was a mistake
  • [11:17 SLT] Ciaran Laval: An auctions alert list would be damn handy for sims where I have land
  • [11:17 SLT] Qie Niangao: yes!
  • [11:17 SLT] Jack Linden: We do tend to look for large, intact parcels as best we can
  • [11:17 SLT] Marianne McCann: indeed, Ciaran. Or even adjacent regions, etc.
  • [11:17 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Sorry I'm late. Had a client. :)
  • [11:17 SLT] Holocluck Henly: its just that i have seen a whole region since I first rezzed and it's still purple, but others I think were purplized this year and put to auction
  • [11:17 SLT] Equinox Pinion: good idea ciaran
  • [11:17 SLT] Holocluck Henly: smaller parcels i mean
  • [11:18 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran.. funnily enough we plan to do that.. we're looking to make some fairly significant additions to the Land pages over 2009 and being able to Watch regions and be informed about land there is on that list
  • [11:18 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Jack :)
  • [11:18 SLT] Holocluck Henly: would such a feature cause lag? I know thats a strange question but there would have to be some sort of scripting associated with the queued parcel
  • [11:19 SLT] Jack Linden: no it shouldn't because of the way we're going to collect the data away from the main db
  • [11:19 SLT] Jack Linden: obviously if you watch too many it might kill your inbox. :)
  • [11:19 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heh
  • [11:20 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Yeah as anyone who didn't change their preferences on the new blog found out ;)
  • [11:20 SLT] Jack Linden: we'd also like to use rss more for land type notifications
  • [11:20 SLT] Jack Linden: ha yes Ciaran
  • [11:20 SLT] Equinox Pinion: when will we get the final decision about the price increase for homesteads in july
  • [11:21 SLT] Jack Linden: Equinox, final decision in what sense?
  • [11:21 SLT] Equinox Pinion: if there will be one or not
  • [11:21 SLT] Equinox Pinion: i mean you lost over 8000 homesteads by now
  • [11:21 SLT] Equinox Pinion: just tought it would make you think about it again
  • [11:21 SLT] Jack Linden: well as it stands it is set to go ahead.
  • [11:21 SLT] Holocluck Henly: were people using them like regular islands?
  • [11:22 SLT] Jack Linden: we didn't lose 8000. we had a lot of conversions up to full regions
  • [11:22 SLT] Marianne McCann: Often Holo
  • [11:22 SLT] Equinox Pinion: i know...but 8000 homesteads are gone
  • [11:22 SLT] Equinox Pinion: about 2000 you lost for good
  • [11:22 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: You're still losing about 100 sims a week, do you have projections for where the sim count is going to go?
  • [11:22 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Yeah but you lost the homesteads Jack, even if they were converted, you made the product unpalatable
  • [11:22 SLT] Marianne McCann: Sadly, I'll be losing a homestead this week. Was a private workspace, but can nolonger justify the cost
  • [11:22 SLT] Equinox Pinion: thats over 60% of them...and the rest will be gone if you really increase
  • [11:23 SLT] Uni Ninetails: Heck i converted 4 homesteads up to a full, mind you now i dont eat fridays.
  • [11:23 SLT] Jack Linden: conversions are still continuing yeah, which we expected. there are still a lot of people adapting and changing the mix
  • [11:23 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Ah Uni if you'd waited you'd have only needed to use 3 for that
  • [11:23 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heheh Uni I went up a tier and no longer order delivery
  • [11:24 SLT] Jack Linden: as you can probably imagine, we wouldn't announce changes at office hours anyways hehe.. it would always go to the blog first.
  • [11:24 SLT] Uni Ninetails: i gave one of mine to the estate owner to fold into another
  • [11:24 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Anorexia SLia
  • [11:25 SLT] Jack Linden: how many of you have been keeping up with the Bot discussion?
  • [11:25 SLT] Jack Linden: we're set to blog again on that in the next few days
  • [11:25 SLT] Ciaran Laval: No it went on too long
  • [11:25 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Ugh, I started but but after a few days it just was too much
  • [11:25 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Is that technically even possible considering the length of the threads involved?
  • [11:25 SLT] Jack Linden: now that we've had so much feedback
  • [11:25 SLT] Melodie Darwin: that format is awful
  • [11:25 SLT] Yohan Pintens: yes how silly of you all to think they would announce in-world things that affect the in-world immersive experience.
  • [11:25 SLT] Chaos Mohr: you mean Profky's discussion Jack?
  • [11:25 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: It's devolved into nonsense anyway
  • [11:25 SLT] Rem Nightfire: i got bored with after the first day hehe
  • [11:25 SLT] Marianne McCann: It got way too bogged down to keep up with
  • [11:25 SLT] Drongle McMahon: It's too repetitive .... all the arguments have been made before.
  • [11:25 SLT] Marianne McCann: Exactly, Chaos
  • [11:26 SLT] Jack Linden: yes, it got slow to load too, which was a learning experience for our devs :)
  • [11:26 SLT] Dytska Vieria: I would rather see a sticky to the forums for comments instead of trying to read the blog comments.
  • [11:26 SLT] Jack Linden: I think it now takes a few minutes for me to load that page
  • [11:26 SLT] Chaos Mohr: a bit of post moderation would be positive Jack
  • [11:26 SLT] Jack Linden: So we need to fix that
  • [11:26 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Blue does moderate
  • [11:26 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Well, the threaded view is pretty useless I think. Would be nice if I could increase the page s the flat view
  • [11:26 SLT] Holocluck Henly: chaos then they'd get attacked for that
  • [11:27 SLT] Qie Niangao: the forums really are easier to use, but i can't imagine anybody wants to hear that.
  • [11:27 SLT] Jack Linden: the posts seem to take up too much vertical space for me, which hides the indenting
  • [11:27 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heheh
  • [11:27 SLT] Talarus Luan: Learning experience for your devs? O.o Are they wet-behind-the-ears noobs, or something? :P Long-ass page = slow loading. Web 101.
  • [11:27 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Just change to flat view and you can read everything in chronological order, the way God intended
  • [11:27 SLT] Jack Linden: the blog team are looking to make improvements anyway, it was very much a first outing
  • [11:27 SLT] Holocluck Henly: i think it was easier when the blog linked to an associated thread in the forum
  • [11:27 SLT] Rem Nightfire: the indenting is confusing yes
  • [11:27 SLT] Ciaran Laval: So what do you intend to blog about regarding bots anyway? Any hints?
  • [11:28 SLT] Dytska Vieria: Can the blogs allow for "View first Unread" like the forums?
  • [11:28 SLT] Jack Linden: Dytska.. i'll ask, not sure
  • [11:28 SLT] Ciaran Laval: or replies to me ala Twitter
  • [11:28 SLT] Talarus Luan: Forums do what forums do best.. discussion threads.
  • [11:28 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Better the blog should link to a forum. Aren't the blogs still a competition to use up blog space?
  • [11:28 SLT] Talarus Luan: Blogs do what blogs do best.. announcements and articles.
  • [11:28 SLT] Drongle McMahon: "Now we have read your feedback, we are going to talk to the bot owners"
  • [11:29 SLT] Kyrion Yalin: Greetings
  • [11:29 SLT] Holocluck Henly: and feedback. and you know blog feedback always includes discussion and comment commentary. might as well be in a more organized format
  • [11:29 SLT] Equinox Pinion: when do you plan to make any decisions about the bots?
  • [11:29 SLT] Holocluck Henly: heya Kyrion!
  • [11:29 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran.. I think the arguments on the thread lead to a fairly natural decision.. we're certainly not interested in banning bots in general, but people do seem to agree that gaming of things like search is not cool
  • [11:29 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: LOL, unlike my ad farm you'll pry my bots from my cold dead fingers <G>
  • [11:29 SLT] Ciaran Laval: How does someone run 20 or 30 bots when there are limits on the number of accounts per person anyway?
  • [11:29 SLT] Arawn Spitteler wishes the lindens good fortune, in their discussion with bot owner bots.
  • [11:29 SLT] Jack Linden: and with it being so easy to see that activity in the rankings etc, it would seem sensible that we address it
  • [11:29 SLT] Jack Linden: haha Elanthius
  • [11:30 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Oh Ciaran, it's pretty easyto get around the account limits
  • [11:30 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Eventually they ban your IP from creating new accounts though
  • [11:30 SLT] Talarus Luan: So? restart your modem/router and get a new IP. :P
  • [11:30 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Isn't there a way to update your IP, each time you're banned for griefing?
  • [11:30 SLT] Jack Linden: we have some pretty good data on Bots, and the individuals that are producing large numbers of them
  • [11:31 SLT] Uni Ninetails: not everyone has a randomly assigned ip address.. tsk tsk
  • [11:31 SLT] IM: Timo Daehlie: aye .. ;)
  • [11:31 SLT] Yann Dufaux: Jack, i can creat an jira for new freature, to add an "proxy scan" for bad gate? :)
  • [11:31 SLT] Equinox Pinion: can you tell us now many bots are online if you have the data?
  • [11:31 SLT] Jack Linden: what we have to look at is the net impact on resources and other residents etc
  • [11:31 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yeah, but anyone who wants to beat the IP bans does and/or can get one. :P
  • [11:31 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Proxy scans only go so far, unfortunately. :P
  • [11:31 SLT] Holocluck Henly: esp gamers and people with routers re dynamic IP
  • [11:31 SLT] Holocluck Henly: lol people usually pay more for static ones and engage in honest activity
  • [11:32 SLT] Holocluck Henly shrugs
  • [11:32 SLT] Jack Linden: Equinox, i don't have that number. But i think that from what i've seen its lower than people think
  • [11:32 SLT] Fontte Newbold: IP address bans are paper tigers. Ditto hardware hash. The best shot you have is account ban at the time of this writing, or voiding someone's credit card details.
  • [11:32 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: People think it's 50% of all avatars. there were some fairly thorough studies done
  • [11:32 SLT] Equinox Pinion: might be..it is hard to tell
  • [11:32 SLT] Talarus Luan: Still think the best solution is unlinking traffic from search
  • [11:32 SLT] Fontte Newbold: And even then, those aren't perfect systems.
  • [11:32 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Well nobody will believe you on the numbers Jack so probably best to avoid that stat
  • [11:32 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Yeah.
  • [11:32 SLT] Equinox Pinion: lol
  • [11:32 SLT] Jack Linden: hehe
  • [11:32 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: It'll be easy to count them. Just ban traffic bots and see how many people are still left
  • [11:33 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Or again, finding a more optimal system, even if it just means extending classifieds.
  • [11:33 SLT] Jack Linden: i would hope that rather than risk losing their traffic and therefore ranking, people would stop using bots for that
  • [11:33 SLT] Jack Linden: But we'll see
  • [11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: They won't
  • [11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: No incentive
  • [11:34 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Not a chance, traffic sells
  • [11:34 SLT] Yohan Pintens: its trivial to make a 'bot' look exactly like the viewer where it would be undetectable by LL unless they added some routines to detect and compare activity.
  • [11:34 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Keep traffic stats, but subtract those remaining longer than 90 minutes.
  • [11:34 SLT] Holocluck Henly: i think they should find a way to also detect camping scripts so schlubs are omitted from the statistics too
  • [11:34 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Arawn, that sort of stuff is super trivial to get around
  • [11:34 SLT] Qie Niangao: oh god, let's please not make all the traffic bots jump around the grid.
  • [11:34 SLT] Rem Nightfire gave you New Note.
  • [11:34 SLT] Jack Linden: Yohan, but the driver there is search ranking generally, and so if you're in any way successful we'll see you rise up the rankings.
  • [11:34 SLT] Uni Ninetails shudders
  • [11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: Just do the simplest and most effective thing.
  • [11:34 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: It would give the rest of us a chance at the camp stools.
  • [11:34 SLT] Jack Linden: So the results of gaming are very visible
  • [11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: Remove the incentive
  • [11:35 SLT] Holocluck Henly: lol arawn
  • [11:35 SLT] Jack Linden: hehe arawn
  • [11:35 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Interesting Jack, I see Prok's 10,000 posts on the blog have influenced you
  • [11:35 SLT] Talarus Luan: She use a bot to post them? :P
  • [11:35 SLT] Qie Niangao: lol
  • [11:35 SLT] Equinox Pinion: LOL!!
  • [11:35 SLT] Chaos Mohr: as long astraffic bots increase traffic which increases search ranking, people will continue to use them, if you remove the obviously gamed ratings, people will just cut back to stay just under the radar
  • [11:35 SLT] Jack Linden: no more than any of the others Elanthius.
  • [11:35 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Talarus: Only explanation
  • [11:35 SLT] Jack Linden: even yours
  • [11:35 SLT] Jack Linden: :)
  • [11:35 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Considering what Proky writes, I'd be interested in seeing her writing stack up against Eliza, or something.
  • [11:36 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: It's an interesting theory though, just give everyone at the top of the search extra attention and don't worry about the people in the middle
  • [11:36 SLT] Fontte Newbold: I bet it'd be just as incoherent and entertaining.
  • [11:36 SLT] Talarus Luan votes to give Proky the Turing Test. :P
  • [11:36 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Indeed.
  • [11:37 SLT] Jack Linden: Elanthius.. I suspect if we watched the first page closely, and dealt with those.. they would become more realistic and the next batch would rise and so on.. and over time you would see the gaming drop off a lot
  • [11:37 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Jack: is 'traffic' useful in any way for anything besides people using it to game?
  • [11:37 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, if you're just going for a policy-only solution, you'll be tied up enforcing chasing down bot farms.
  • [11:37 SLT] Alexxa Despres: Good question Yohan...
  • [11:37 SLT] Yohan Pintens: kill traffic, save the database!
  • [11:37 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It's useful in giving residents unskilled, underpaid camping and greeter jobs. :p
  • [11:37 SLT] Talarus Luan: Leaving other, more important things left undone.
  • [11:37 SLT] Alexxa Despres: I was wondering thre same thing
  • [11:37 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Yeah it's not too bad a plan if you can keep on top of it. I'll be sure to get my bots to get my traffic up just enough to stay off the front page also
  • [11:37 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Jack..I see dead people...ghosted avatars on land, pretty regularly..and they don't clear till a restart..can't that be fixed?
  • [11:38 SLT] Jack Linden: Yohan.. the problem with traffic is that we use it for two very different things, and those two are not compatible.. wits an open stat on parcels to tell you your traffic, and it's a part of search which probably shouldn't be understood in the same way
  • [11:38 SLT] Equinox Pinion: all you can do is restart pulse
  • [11:38 SLT] Chaos Mohr: cutting down traffic bots will just give rise again to camping, personally I would rather have the bots using less resources than attachment and resource heavy campers
  • [11:39 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the need here is people just want to pay for search results.
  • [11:39 SLT] Jack Linden: One of the options we have it to have two distinct stats, the friendly visitor count on parcels. and then the much more complex stat used in search that we don't explain
  • [11:39 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Traffic is dependent upon how long someone stays on a parcel as well as how many visitors so how useful it is surely depends on the parcel owner's interpretation
  • [11:39 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: thanks..equinox..sometimes not on my land..at sim border is common.
  • [11:39 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Give them their own little slice of Classifieds and leave the rest of us in peace.
  • [11:39 SLT] Jack Linden: But we're debating all of that at the moment.. and we have a great Search team who will do the right thing i'm sure
  • [11:39 SLT] Susie Chaffe: naked camping will only be allowed in the adult continent Chaos
  • [11:39 SLT] Yohan Pintens: yeah I'm SURE they will too :P
  • [11:40 SLT] Alexxa Despres: Jack..can you expand on that further....2 different SEARCHES?
  • [11:40 SLT] Holocluck Henly: well not really. if it's inside a mature land structure and isnt obvious.
  • [11:40 SLT] Equinox Pinion: and when can we expect actions on that jack
  • [11:40 SLT] Arawn Spitteler sees Holocliuck as Grey with Goggles
  • [11:40 SLT] Jack Linden: no Alexxa, 2 different stats. it's just one option, nothing has been decided at this point
  • [11:40 SLT] Holocluck Henly: lag happens arawn :)
  • [11:40 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: I practically sat on this couch, befor it became visible.
  • [11:41 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: OK, let's get to the real deal though. The thing everyone really cares about. What about the land bot thing? You snuck that in there at the last minute. It was a bit of a kick in the pills
  • [11:41 SLT] Fontte Newbold: More like a diversion. :p
  • [11:41 SLT] Jack Linden: wasn't intending to damage any pills Elanthius, but they do cause their own problems
  • [11:41 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: <G>
  • [11:41 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Land Purchase Bots? Ideally, they're just more efficient purchasers.
  • [11:42 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Sure, I was glad to see all these years of my own personal version of PR has worked it's magic. Not too much opposition anymore
  • [11:42 SLT] Jack Linden: land bots seemed to be less of an issue in the thread, and we do already take action where we see landbots eating too much resource or hitting search too often
  • [11:42 SLT] Chaos Mohr: yes actually speaking of landbots Jack, you have stated previously that support would help people who had made a mistake in setting land for sale, and yet I have still seen quite a few people who have had a problem and contacted support immediately only to be told they were SOL
  • [11:42 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Honestly Elan? I think it's more people know bots are practically impossible to stop. :p
  • [11:42 SLT] Jack Linden: we also need to look at the use of groups of them to hit search as a team.. which we will do
  • [11:42 SLT] Dytska Vieria: Still need that "Transfer" land button...
  • [11:43 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Indeed Dytska
  • [11:43 SLT] Talarus Luan: Better UI, delayed listings
  • [11:43 SLT] Fontte Newbold: And we can thank Google for making the use of bots "for the common good"
  • [11:43 SLT] Jack Linden: Dytska, yeah we intend to provide a simple way to do that
  • [11:43 SLT] Jack Linden: Maybe via a web interface
  • [11:43 SLT] Fontte Newbold: (While they trawl and subclassify our buying habits in ways Orwell would scream about, were he alive)
  • [11:44 SLT] Talarus Luan: He's dead? O.o Are you sure?
  • [11:44 SLT] Qie Niangao: actually, if all land sales were via a web interface, we could save a lot of grid resources. the bots wouldn't have to login at all.
  • [11:44 SLT] Equinox Pinion: we wrote alot about the additional feature blog......will any of the requests be done?
  • [11:44 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Jack: why not just add a button to the UI that sets for sale for 0L to the person in the dialog "Transfer Land" does the same as Set for Sale to 0L to Specific person, its really not that difficult and would solve 99% of the gripes about people getting their land "stolen"
  • [11:44 SLT] Jack Linden: Chaos, in most cases that we see, if the resident contacts the land dealer they will be reasonable about obvious mistakes, but when they don't, and we know quickly enough, we have helped out
  • [11:45 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Yohan, yeah that's always been my favourite suggestion. About 2 minutes worth of development time as well
  • [11:45 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Jack: you need to be consistent about helping out those who make mistakes, its part of your responsibility as the Estate Manager
  • [11:45 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: I also agree..transfer would be better..and prevent errors..
  • [11:45 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Yeah, no-one accidentally sells their land on a real estate
  • [11:45 SLT] Yohan Pintens: "We have helped out" doesn't cut it in my opinion.
  • [11:45 SLT] Jack Linden: Equinox, a lot of those ideas from that thread have gone into triage as ideas to discuss so it was very useful indeed
  • [11:46 SLT] Equinox Pinion: ok thanks
  • [11:46 SLT] Jack Linden: There were some wonderful simple changes there that would have good results
  • [11:46 SLT] Arawn Spitteler's seen a drunk the morning after
  • [11:47 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Jack..problem with Eject..puts avatar on nearby parcel..why not a Send Home option for landowners?
  • [11:47 SLT] Jack Linden: Yohan, to be clear.. we do help out *where we can*, but in some cases it can be really difficult
  • [11:47 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Boo, no eliminate all forms of teleport home. It's really annoying
  • [11:47 SLT] Alexxa Despres: I agree Pulse
  • [11:47 SLT] Jack Linden: It's not uncommon that by the time we're told, the land is reparcelled, divided and being lived on
  • [11:47 SLT] Equinox Pinion: really pulse...didnt notice that
  • [11:48 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Yeah well most of the evil landbotters do that stuff deliberately. Buy for L$1/sqm, sell for L$2.5/sqm to some other sucker
  • [11:48 SLT] Rem Nightfire: that happens with land cuts too unfortunately
  • [11:48 SLT] Jack Linden: If we had much more resource we could do a lot more obviously, but we have to work to the troops we have.
  • [11:48 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: And then the problem is impossible to solve
  • [11:48 SLT] Talarus Luan: You can alredy script a TP Home solution
  • [11:48 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: I've seen Voice crossing parcel boundaries, as a problem.
  • [11:48 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: ok..will do that Talarus..
  • [11:48 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Jack, if I submit a patch to the viewer to add a "Transfer Land" option, will you do what you can to push it through the pipeline and get a decision made one way or the other?
  • [11:49 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Jack as Elan has stated, there are those that immediately resell, and do so in hidden groups etc, which even if a support ticket is put in, the land has already been resold, sometimes more than once
  • [11:49 SLT] Jack Linden: Yohan, of course. happy to
  • [11:49 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Eject would simply sweep the idiot off your land, but some can holler across parcel boundaries, and AR becomes a biut difficult.
  • [11:49 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yeah, I would love to limit shouts to parcels as well
  • [11:49 SLT] Talarus Luan: llParcelSay() :P
  • [11:49 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: and can sweep off your land..onto your other land too. ;)
  • [11:50 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Or y'know. Write a shout-detected ICBM. :D
  • [11:50 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Voice was being used to disrupt a class, and parcel boundaries couldn't stop
  • [11:50 SLT] Fontte Newbold: I don't think Sumi would like that much, though. >_>
  • [11:50 SLT] Jack Linden: Chaos, agreed that is bad and hard for us to deal with. I'll give some thought to whether we need a more directive policy for the support staff on those situations
  • [11:50 SLT] Moon Corrigible: I would have sworn you could restrict voice to your own parcel though
  • [11:51 SLT] Melodie Darwin: so Jack, sorry if you already answered this, but I crashed - is there a timeframe in place for the microparcels disappearing?
  • [11:51 SLT] Talarus Luan: You can restrict sounds.
  • [11:51 SLT] Moon Corrigible: Not the typed shouts but sounds - yes exactly
  • [11:51 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Jack, the big thing is that support on such issues is hit or miss - concierge is usually great, however normal premium support tends to be more of the oh well too bad responses
  • [11:51 SLT] Talarus Luan: Dunno if that includes voice. I suppose not
  • [11:52 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Parcel Sound Limit might not work for Voice, yet.
  • [11:52 SLT] Ciaran Laval: How about the spatial private channel?
  • [11:52 SLT] Jack Linden: chaos.. we have so many complex situations that it's pretty hard to be totally uniform but we try! when we get common cases we set internal guidance and then we get much more concistency and that happens most of the time
  • [11:52 SLT] Talarus Luan: Wonder if changing the voice channel would help
  • [11:52 SLT] Jack Linden: So maybe we just need to lay out some clear guidance to help the agents
  • [11:52 SLT] Qie Niangao: what does "use a private spatial channel" do, if not that?
  • [11:52 SLT] Chaos Mohr: :)
  • [11:52 SLT] Moon Corrigible: No I'm almost sure it does Arawan buecase I remember limiting it when my neo-nazi neighbors got a bit too rambunctious
  • [11:52 SLT] Jack Linden: But i'll definitely give that some though
  • [11:52 SLT] Jack Linden: *t
  • [11:53 SLT] Jack Linden: right, we have a few mins left.. any late shoutouts?
  • [11:53 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Hi Mom
  • [11:53 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: :)
  • [11:53 SLT] Dytska Vieria: There was Melodie's question...
  • [11:53 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Jack. Concerning network advertising....is it acceptable for a single network to have more than one hoarding on a sim if the plots hosting them have different owners, or is that regarded as circumventing the rules?
  • [11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: Hi Yohan's Mom
  • [11:54 SLT] Moon Corrigible: lol
  • [11:54 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Jack, one other land bitch - hidden groups should not be allowed to sell land - if I go to my transaction history, and see that I have bought something from a group, I should be able to find who owns that group
  • [11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: yipes Melodie, please repeat if i missed oe
  • [11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: *one
  • [11:54 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Wait, another one., bring back that missing tab in the group's Land &L$ page
  • [11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: Drongle, i think that would be circumventing
  • [11:54 SLT] Melodie Darwin: is there a time frame for dealing with microparcels?
  • [11:55 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: It's fricking killing me that it's missing. Well, actually it's not so bad because I can still get the data with bots, but it's still crazy
  • [11:55 SLT] Jack Linden: 'network' is not a way to go around the rules
  • [11:55 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, they are
  • [11:55 SLT] Talarus Luan: RezAds
  • [11:55 SLT] Jack Linden: point me at some ARs, i'll ask someone to take a look
  • [11:55 SLT] Talarus Luan: how do we point you at ARs?
  • [11:55 SLT] Talarus Luan: We don't get numbers or anything
  • [11:56 SLT] Jack Linden: Chaos, ooh that's a good point. I'll look into that
  • [11:56 SLT] Yann Dufaux: i send a ar, if its realy urgent :)
  • [11:56 SLT] Drongle McMahon: I didn't AR until I had asked you.
  • [11:56 SLT] Jack Linden: you should get an email back with an AR number on it
  • [11:56 SLT] Elanthius Flagstaff: Just AR Jack directly. The G Team will contact him eventually
  • [11:56 SLT] Talarus Luan: I haven't gotten those in years
  • [11:56 SLT] Jack Linden: haha elanthius
  • [11:56 SLT] Ciaran Laval: I get the emails, that's the last you hear about it
  • [11:56 SLT] LANDMACHINE Messenger: mearley Catteneo Born: 2007-07-16 (No Payment Info) Visited Parcel 63968 on Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:56:27 -0700 http://slurl.com/secondlife/Clanis/48/148/0
  • [11:56 SLT] Talarus Luan: They changed the AR system in 2007 to no longer send AR emails
  • [11:57 SLT] Rem Nightfire: jack, the microparcel timeframe?
  • [11:57 SLT] Talarus Luan: or at least ones with tracking numbers in them
  • [11:57 SLT] Qie Niangao: It would be nice if the emails contained some identifying information about the AR that was sent.
  • [11:57 SLT] Yann Dufaux: Jack, yes because due a policy of confidancyality i never recive other email with action taken :)
  • [11:57 SLT] Yann Dufaux: confidanciality* sorry lol
  • [11:57 SLT] Jack Linden: Melodie.. just as soon as we can but remember we didn't state small parcels weren't allowed, but what we are doing is saying to the micro-barons that as estate manager we need to drive that number down, and the prices too. So we are working with them to improve things.
  • [11:57 SLT] Jack Linden: If that doesn't work quickly enough, we will do something else
  • [11:58 SLT] Talarus Luan: Define "quickly enough"
  • [11:58 SLT] Arawn Spitteler: Confidentially, action is rarely taken. An idea that seems obvious, for microoparcels, is to allow 16¢ tier increments, for adjacent parcels.
  • [11:58 SLT] Qie Niangao: it isn't working quickly enough.
  • [11:58 SLT] Dytska Vieria: I think last month you said something like around this time 'next month' definite results would be seen...
  • [11:58 SLT] Drongle McMahon: A guess - there are 1600 micros left and they are going at 1000/month - that's 16 months.
  • [11:58 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yup. Have that as a quote.
  • [11:58 SLT] Drongle McMahon: *16000!!
  • [11:58 SLT] Indigo Mertel: are the rules for network advertising available anywhere?
  • [11:58 SLT] LANDMACHINE Messenger: mearley Catteneo Born: 2007-07-16 (No Payment Info) Visited Parcel 63968 on Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:58:27 -0700 http://slurl.com/secondlife/Clanis/48/148/0
  • [11:58 SLT] Melodie Darwin: Jack I just got a floaty sign taken down i have ARd for 3 months, the blatant ad farm I have been ARing is still there. Old policies still arent being enforced either
  • [11:58 SLT] Yann Dufaux: Jake, i understend this but if i send a AR , i like to look the resulte of this actions, and its not confidantial because i have send this AR :)
  • [11:58 SLT] Jack Linden: i think the actual quote was that you can come kick me if there was no progress. ;)
  • [11:59 SLT] Jack Linden: but there has been! but yeah, i agree that it's not quick enough
  • [11:59 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Well, it's pretty easy to find and rank statistical outliers based on the market average and surrounding land value.
  • [11:59 SLT] Ciaran Laval: I have similar experiences Melodie, repeated AR's because the AR system is a black hole
  • [11:59 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Where do we get the kick animation?
  • [11:59 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Jack..so..a high priced microparcel..is not in violation of any policy if there is no ad on it? just to be clear?
  • [11:59 SLT] Equinox Pinion: is that just for the micro parcels or in general jack :)
  • [12:00 SLT] Equinox Pinion: can we kick you when a support ticket takes more than 7 days *g*
  • [12:00 SLT] Marianne McCann: Time f'r me to run. Have fun, all!
  • [12:00 SLT] Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!
  • [12:00 SLT] Uni Ninetails: baibai
  • [12:00 SLT] Talarus Luan: "If you guys aren’t seeing significant change this time next month, you can come prod me. But you really should see some changes soon …”
  • [12:00 SLT] Alexxa Despres: or more than 2weeks?
  • [12:00 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Real soon now....
  • [12:00 SLT] Drongle McMahon: catlle prods anyone?
  • [12:00 SLT] Jack Linden: Pulseburst.. at this time, correct.
  • [12:00 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: ok. thanks
  • [12:00 SLT] Jack Linden: :) okays guys.. I have to run
  • [12:00 SLT] Rem Nightfire: some.... maybe "miniscule" is more like it
  • [12:00 SLT] Jack Linden: thank you all!
  • [12:00 SLT] Equinox Pinion: take care jack...and Happy Easter!
  • [12:00 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, if we consider "significant change" local, then we're now prodding you. :)
  • [12:00 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: bye Jack.
  • [12:01 SLT] Yohan Pintens: Jack stand up and take your beating like a man
  • [12:01 SLT] Rem Nightfire: thank you jack
  • [12:01 SLT] Uni Ninetails: Thanks Jack cya!
  • [12:01 SLT] Fontte Newbold: I think we need a threat at the end of that. Like, if we don't see results in two weeks, we get a day devoted to orbiting Jack. :D
  • [12:01 SLT] Alexxa Despres: Yohn LOL
  • [12:01 SLT] Timo Daehlie: hahahahahahahaha
  • [12:01 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Jack
  • [12:01 SLT] Jack Linden: hahahahaha
  • [12:01 SLT] Uni Ninetails: lol

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