User:Jack Linden/Office Hour/2008-10-09

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[11:05] Jack Linden: good day everyone!

[11:05] Kara Spengler: hi Jack

[11:05] Anja Drevnerussky: hello jack

[11:05] Holocluck Henly: heya jack

[11:05] Bushido Contepomi: Hello Jack, it is a pleasure to meet you, and thank you for opening up this discussion about the ad farm abuses/micro parcel extortion usage (Blog).

[11:05] Kerry Giha: hello

[11:05] Jack Linden: oops sorry san

[11:05] Bushido Contepomi: My question is: Will there be information made readily available concerning this issue that will help detour new residence from falling for this scam? Perhaps a warning in the transaction menu of the purchase software that gives the current market rate for land?

[11:05] Nefertiti Nefarious: Don'tsay HIJACK!" The TSA will send us allto jail!

[11:05] Jack Linden: i need more chairs.

[11:06] Bushido Contepomi: And why on LL's once beautiful mainland are these abusers still here?

[11:06] Stray Underwood: law of consumerisum, you have the right to sell a product or service for what ever you with.

[11:06] Timo Daehlie: good question

[11:06] Stray Underwood: with = want

[11:06] IntLibber Brautigan: yes what is being done to prevent honest landowners from being extorted out of their land by extortionists fililng false abuse reports just so they can steal someones land?

[11:06] Jack Linden: looks like we're off to a brisk start! so.. the land price discussion..

[11:07] Holocluck Henly: wow they just jump into questions here? where's tom brokaw?

[11:07] Talarus Luan: Nope. not land price, land extortion and harassment.

[11:07] IntLibber Brautigan: the bare fact is that high prices on some parcels clearly reflect market scarcity of prims in some mainland sims

[11:07] IntLibber Brautigan: this is market dynamics at work

[11:07] Dytska Vieria: and stuffing the sim with aces

[11:07] Jack Linden: so, i've had a bunch of people talking to me about this issue. about whether it is an offence to sell a small parcel for a big price..

[11:07] IntLibber Brautigan: and some people think they can legislate against gravity

[11:08] Qie Niangao: right... when the neighboring parcels sell for 1/100th the price. market dynamics?

[11:08] IntLibber Brautigan: yes

[11:08] Timo Daehlie: lol

[11:08] Fontte Newbold: IntLibber, please refrain from discussing economics unless you clearly understand what you're discussing, thanks. :)

[11:08] Talarus Luan: It's not simply about selling a parcel at a high price, and never was, Jack.

[11:08] ROBO Marx: lol u like that int

[11:08] Jack Linden: ..historically, no it is not. your land, you choose how much to sell it for. *unless* there is some other element of harrassment involved other than just the high price itself

[11:08] Dytska Vieria: ...and let Jack finish

[11:08] IntLibber Brautigan: Thanks Fontte, I'm widely recognised as an economics and finance expert in SL

[11:08] Fontte Newbold: The market dynamics aren't those of scarcity. They're of necessity and extortion.

[11:08] Jack Linden: now, that said.. we do now need to look at this

[11:08] Rem Nightfire: aye theres the rub

[11:08] IntLibber Brautigan: I've been a guest on Metanomics more times than anybody else in SL

[11:08] Stray Underwood: a high price is not harrassment

[11:09] Stray Underwood: its business

[11:09] Dytska Vieria: who cares, Int?

[11:09] Qie Niangao: metanomics, Doh!

[11:09] Fontte Newbold: Oh. Excuse me for tarnishing your reputation. :) -- Moving right along.

[11:09] Kaddan Yue: ltnadu1

[11:09] Jack Linden: because if you look at Search, you'll see a huge pile of tiny parcels for extreme prices of L$900/m or more

[11:09] Fontte Newbold: Precisely.

[11:09] Rem Nightfire: yes....

[11:09] IntLibber Brautigan: thats market dynamics at work

[11:09] Holocluck Henly: 900 is cheap from what i see most of the time

[11:09] IntLibber Brautigan: yes

[11:09] Rem Nightfire: not its not

[11:09] IntLibber Brautigan: prices in bay city are much higher

[11:09] Jack Linden: so there may be something we need to do here. but until we make a decision, price alone won't be an offense

[11:09] Stray Underwood: so people should sell for less to make search more ... fair?

[11:09] Jack Linden: so i'd ask you give us time to look

[11:10] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: isnt thats why there is search by land size?

[11:10] Qie Niangao: Jack, fair enough

[11:10] Talarus Luan: How much time are you asking for, Jack?

[11:10] Fontte Newbold: Bay City is an interesting exception where scarcity *does* apply. It's a nifty experiment, even.

[11:10] Ciaran Laval: Jack just tell people to stop acting like dicks, that about covers it

[11:10] IntLibber Brautigan: bah

[11:10] Rem Nightfire: ok jack, it is something that needs to be looked at thankyou

[11:10] Fontte Newbold: I'd be interested on how that plays out.

[11:10] Jack Linden: I'm not asking as such, I'm saying that we will make a call on it as soon as we can. i know you'll want quick answers. :)

[11:10] Stray Underwood: The lindens know the backlash of telling people what they can charge for their stuff right?

[11:10] Holocluck Henly: It's not about pricing but abuse. if someone has made a donut hole on land - say a large piece and it may not even be obvious at first -- well, there's an agenda there it isnt JUST about selling land

[11:10] ROBO Marx: selll off

[11:10] IntLibber Brautigan: yes

[11:10] ROBO Marx: su

[11:11] Talarus Luan: Well, are we talking weeks, months, or years?

[11:11] Ewan Mureaux: ciaran thats it in a nutshell "dont be a dick" the only thing that should be in community standards

[11:11] Holocluck Henly: i mean large piece of land and theres this microparcel on it

[11:11] ROBO Marx: when they get to it tl

[11:11] Talarus Luan: ..just trying to pin it down a little bit

[11:11] IntLibber Brautigan: if LL passes price controls the business people will abandon SL and the economy will crash, pure and simple

[11:11] Jack Linden: i think in cases where someone has deliberately mislead a buyer into having a doughnut parcel, that is a very different situation

[11:11] Jack Linden: and that is definitely not acceptable

[11:11] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: It's already crashede.......

[11:11] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: *crashed

[11:11] IntLibber Brautigan: you dont know crashed yet

[11:11] ROBO Marx: lol.09 per sqm here we come

[11:11] Dytska Vieria: yeah, like when gambling was banned, that sure crashed things.

[11:11] IntLibber Brautigan: you wont be able to sell a full sim for more than a hundred bucks when we are gone

[11:12] Ewan Mureaux: It hasnt really crashed for content creators and honest and or talented people

[11:12] Fontte Newbold: I have to agree that price controls are a bad idea, simply because the market will rapidly readjust or move to shadow economies.

[11:12] Holocluck Henly: I have my own scenario and it has become extremely obvious yet technically one cannot pin it down - like a gangster hit LOL...

[11:12] Bloodfrom Inglewood: I agree with IntLibber, price controls is totalitiran

[11:12] Qie Niangao: in the meantime, I wonder if there's any new information about the thinking re: controlling landcutting on old Mainland, and on new zoning for new Mainland.

[11:12] Fontte Newbold: The question is one of killing the problem, not limiting on price.

[11:12] Qie Niangao: the landcutting is picking up again, which suggests some urgency to that policy being implemented.

[11:12] Talarus Luan: Because, Jack, landcutting and strategic microplot placement is continuing unabated while you "think" about it.

[11:13] Jack Linden: price controls alone, are tough because they end up being unfair to someone. and we do want land prices to be able to move up and down. but some people are selling hundreds at very high price, and that scale might be an issue in itself

[11:13] ROBO Marx: so is harassing tiny plot owners to get there land TL

[11:13] Stray Underwood: more and more business people are starting to to give up, since this world keeps having the loudest bitcher have true say. And since we have business to run we just dont want to bitch the loudest, business people dont bitch, they leave

[11:13] Jack Linden: but we're defintiely very aware of this. and will get back to the community on it

[11:13] IntLibber Brautigan: those who think profit is wrong dont belong in the free market of SL

[11:13] Holocluck Henly: In my 6 months here I was crowded out TWICE via the same method. Someone wants your land. they block view, they use alpha textures which interfere with your build - they do not encroach but they definitely make it unpleasant. It happened with a 512 in may. last week it was with a 2048+ - it seems it doesnt matter how much land they do manage to get you. its very subversive.

[11:13] IntLibber Brautigan: you can go back to active worlds and play with your prims there

[11:13] Ciaran Laval: Jack if you do go price capping how about offering an amnesty to people to clean up their land and form larger parcels before you kick ass

[11:13] Bushido Contepomi: Will there be information made readily available concerning this issue that will help detour new residence from falling for this scam? Perhaps a warning in the transaction menu of the purchase software that gives the current market rate for land?

[11:14] Bloodfrom Inglewood: It's called free enterprise. Maybe you should change the slogan of seocnd life than

[11:14] Talarus Luan: So, no time frame at all, Jack?

[11:14] Fontte Newbold: I don't exactly cry for the "business" people. They incur a risk by coming here. It's more of a question of consistency than who does what where.

[11:14] IntLibber Brautigan: ya change SL to Soviet Life

[11:14] Holocluck Henly: cant pin it down this method but i'll be damned if all the land sold the next day

[11:14] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Your world, Your Imagination. Is very delusional

[11:14] Ewan Mureaux: Intblubber some of us make a reasonable profit without harassing, tarnishing image or otherwise being anti-social

[11:14] Jack Linden: ciaran.. agreed, sudden kicking of ass is not usualyl a good idea. as with ad farming we'd talk about it, get feedback, then make a call

[11:14] ROBO Marx: so does that mean ur neighbor cant plant tress now holo

[11:14] IntLibber Brautigan: Ewan you tarnish the image of many people with your socialist propaganda

[11:14] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Second Life is like a shopping center, but only a game. THe owner scan set any rules they wont

[11:14] Bart Heart: I hear all these people bitching about how bad SL is, you dont have to log in

[11:14] Bloodfrom Inglewood: and discard the slogan

[11:14] Stray Underwood: you people need to look up the word harrassment, selling something for a larger profit does not mean harressment

[11:15] Ewan Mureaux: Whats socialist about me turning a profit?

[11:15] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Bart, I put money on this game already.

[11:15] Bloodfrom Inglewood: I think I have the right too

[11:15] Cory Toll: "you people?"

[11:15] IntLibber Brautigan: and thank you for identifying yourself with griefers Ewan

[11:15] Fontte Newbold: My personal conviction is there should be clear rules and enforcement on what infringing parcel use is, including what is considered parasitic behavior. That should be enforced on, and the market should be left well the hell alone.

[11:15] Holocluck Henly: She now owns over 8000sqm of my region and she had 512 2 weeks ago. she built a set of walls high enough to block the sky

[11:15] Jack Linden: guys, if you start making this personal again, i will remove you. you get one hour a week with you, lets use it constructively please

[11:15] Holocluck Henly: and we were on a slope

[11:15] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Ok this feelins liek a state of congress

[11:15] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: Ill take any donations of L$ for those who dont want to log back in anmymore..... It will go to good cause

[11:15] Jack Linden: *i get

[11:15] Bloodfrom Inglewood: It's not personal. We didn't use anyones names. It's our feelings. Now we can't exprress ourselves.

[11:16] Holocluck Henly: there was no doubt what she wanted. but technically? who could anyone come to with it if i wanted to stay

[11:16] Nefertiti Nefarious: Holocluck - that would be harassment

[11:16] Talarus Luan: Jack, I am asking valid questions, and not getting any answers. There is no harassment here. Just questions.

[11:16] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Maybe if I get hired by IBM this summer, I will have more liberty in my words.

[11:16] Fontte Newbold: Even though IntLibber there is a little too free market and business rights for me, he does have a point that too much meddling with the market is a *bad* thing.

[11:16] Rem Nightfire: jack, ban lines are still in place on many small parcels

[11:16] Jack Linden: so who would like some numbers around ad farm progress?

[11:16] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Sure

[11:16] Nefertiti Nefarious: I would

[11:16] IntLibber Brautigan: those of us who are productive residents of SL dont generally make it to these office hours because we have productive work to do, but we are sick of being harassed and extorted by these socialists who defame us for being successful

[11:16] Bushido Contepomi: yes please Jack :)

[11:16] Holocluck Henly: circumstances were that land i wished i had came available but lets say i'm more than broke with the added tier and bills in RL

[11:16] Ewan Mureaux: since when was social responsibility the enemy?

[11:17] ROBO Marx: ur broke ur beat

[11:17] Holocluck Henly: This may be my only time in a long time to these hours because normally I work at this time

[11:17] Stray Underwood: Since when was profit bad?

[11:17] Dytska Vieria: Please Jack!

[11:17] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Yes, all socialist are uneducated people who failed out in high school can't take care of their kids. So they blame us for going ot school and workign hard

[11:17] ROBO Marx: get an sl job

[11:17] Rem Nightfire: lets hear from jack please

[11:17] Fontte Newbold: I wouldn't quantify success on parasitic advertising revenue, IntLibber. There's a fine line between business and bullshit, so please. :)

[11:17] Jack Linden: so.. early numbers suggest that we (or the residents) have lowered the volume of 'ad farm' style content by over 90% from what it was.

[11:17] Nefertiti Nefarious: I have noticed that the roadsides are much prettier.

[11:17] Fontte Newbold: One is a good thing, the other takes money and liquidity out of the system.

[11:17] Rem Nightfire: fantastic

[11:17] ROBO Marx: wel then leave em alone

[11:17] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: what was the count of ad farms? how do you know its 90%

[11:17] Jack Linden: still some work to do, especially with the smaller ad farm operators

[11:18] Bushido Contepomi: Wow Jack, Right On!

[11:18] AfroduckFromPC Brim: It *does* look much better for now

[11:18] ROBO Marx: what kinda work

[11:18] Holocluck Henly: someone in the new region has a tall adfarmish structure and now has a modest cube with art.

[11:18] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack I have been getting reports that alleged 'adfarmers' have been getting harassed by the g-team with warnings on 256 meter parcels that they have absolutely no content on. is this fair?

[11:18] Dytska Vieria: It was very noticible the 1st day

[11:18] Rem Nightfire: jack, the spinning for sale signs seem to be lingering

[11:18] Talarus Luan: Does that number also include content that was removed in error?

[11:18] Jack Linden: TheBiggDogg (man that is hard to type): we use sampling partly. we run surveys across areas and watch the level of change

[11:18] Ciaran Laval: Intlibber if they have banlines then yes it's fair

[11:18] Fontte Newbold: I have noticed changes on the ad farming. I've been impressed, but feel consistency of enforcement is still lacking.

[11:18] Holocluck Henly: do they have banlines Intlibber?

[11:18] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: WoW they had somedone go around count all the ad farms then come up with a % they took down

[11:18] IntLibber Brautigan: that doesnt matter

[11:18] Talarus Luan: Such as information kiosks from a park for a non-profit organization?

[11:18] IntLibber Brautigan: ban lines are a legitimate tool of land owners

[11:18] Stray Underwood: Ciaran no harressment is fair of any kind

[11:18] Qie Niangao: I've noticed a sudden INCREASE in banlines for smallish for-sale parcels.

[11:19] Stray Underwood: its against the terms of use

[11:19] Nefertiti Nefarious: Judgement call on vendors ... I found some large vendors. Had they been static ads,they would have been nonconforming. But is there aloopholeforo vendors?

[11:19] Stray Underwood: whixh dont out line profit as harressment

[11:19] Holocluck Henly: I have to say a more recent continent where my pool shop is the sale signs are still spinning. i dont think the teams been through everywhere yet

[11:19] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: anyone here get a adfarm survey to them???

[11:19] IntLibber Brautigan: if you ban me from your land do you agree I can AR you for harassing me by preventing me from trespassing?

[11:19] Jack Linden: this success has left a lot of chopped up land, so we're looking at how best to handle those

[11:19] Ciaran Laval: banlines shouldn't be on any parcel set for sale, no matter what the size

[11:19] Fontte Newbold: I also think there needs to be MUCH more transparency into this process. Something like a policy wiki that integrates these office hours changes, and any comments from community team lindens that let us open a dialog instead of read between the lines and AR rumors.

[11:19] IntLibber Brautigan: says who?

[11:19] Jack Linden: Holocluck.. be sure to AR them please

[11:19] IntLibber Brautigan: you have a right to select who you sell to

[11:20] Fontte Newbold: A lot of the FUD, on both sides, is due to having limited visibility.

[11:20] ROBO Marx: neither should security systems that freeze our software. TIGHT TD

[11:20] Qie Niangao: say what?

[11:20] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Yes its true. This feels like tea tax

[11:20] Holocluck Henly: I have. i think its just a matter of time

[11:20] Qie Niangao: a right to select who you sell to?

[11:20] ROBO Marx: right*

[11:20] Ewan Mureaux: banlines do nothing to stop anyone buying

[11:20] Bart Heart: Well I think LL should put that into there programing, If a lot is for sale then ban lines are off

[11:20] Bloodfrom Inglewood: What about stopping spam?

[11:20] Qie Niangao: like, whites only? wtf do you mean?

[11:20] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Spam needs to be stopped.

[11:20] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack can you please answer my question?

[11:20] Bart Heart: How are would that be Jack?

[11:20] Stray Underwood: Qie, you can sell to who ever you want for what ever reasons

[11:20] Holocluck Henly: Ewan: it doesnt help the sale, which brings to question why ban line a blank plot

[11:20] Bushido Contepomi reminds himself to ban IntLibber Brautigan :)

[11:20] Jack Linden: reading back Intlibber.. lots of text

[11:21] Qie Niangao: not according to Intlibber

[11:21] IntLibber Brautigan: Bushido send me an LM to your land so I can AR you

[11:21] Ciaran Laval: It's obvious Holocluk, it's to grief your neighbour

[11:21] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: I like to know which residents got surveys on adfarm cleanup in their area

[11:21] Fontte Newbold: Give poor Jack a chance to breath. ;)

[11:21] Ewan Mureaux: the question is why banline something thats for sale? its stupid and hardly capitalism in action that sounds like communism to me

[11:21] Talarus Luan: I haven't received any surveys

[11:21] ROBO Marx: can we read minds here

[11:21] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Linden Lab should just have a three branch peoples government that simple

[11:21] ROBO Marx: how do u know what a neighbor is thinking

[11:21] Bloodfrom Inglewood: There are so many people with lindenf riends that ban accounts just because

[11:22] Jack Linden: Bart.. we have been talking about doing that. but for larger parcels it may be valid that while selling your land you still want to be protected from certain other residents

[11:22] ROBO Marx: tru im sure

[11:22] Nefertiti Nefarious: Jack: Would it be possible to automatically remove ban lines when a parcel is set for sale?

[11:22] Fontte Newbold: Frankly, if we reflect on where this is a problem, it becomes more clear.

[11:22] IntLibber Brautigan: why discriminating by parcel size Jack?

[11:22] IntLibber Brautigan: thats bigoted

[11:22] Bloodfrom Inglewood: What about the Linde Malpratice?

[11:22] Ciaran Laval: Robo banlines on a for sale plot, come on? There's no excuse for them. I can understand you still might have people on the ban list but there's no excuse for a general ban everyone bar group members

[11:22] IntLibber Brautigan: and intolerant

[11:22] Stray Underwood: It becomes a problem for people not making as much money as others

[11:22] Bart Heart: Right Jack keep it so you can ban names but not everyone

[11:22] IntLibber Brautigan: and therefore a violation of the ToS

[11:22] Holocluck Henly: well does banning them prevent them from buying the land?

[11:22] Fontte Newbold: Ad farms and spam are a lesser issue on private estates, where a second resident can mandate and remove what they feel to be infringing.

[11:22] Holocluck Henly: I can about land a banned parcel

[11:22] ROBO Marx: if u ban certain buyers its fair

[11:22] Ewan Mureaux: discriminating against anti-social behaviour that more often than not happens on small parcels

[11:22] ROBO Marx: then ban u why shouldnt u ban them

[11:22] IntLibber Brautigan: intolerance of small parcel owners is against the Big Six

[11:22] Jack Linden: some parcels don't sell quickly. if i had 4096m where i live, and wish to sell it, do i have to go without any ban lines for the entire time I wait to sell it?

[11:23] Fontte Newbold: On the mainland, we rely on Linden judgment and enforcement as our only line of defense against emerging spam and scam threats.

[11:23] Rem Nightfire: because banlines on a small polt isnothing but harassment, pure and simple

[11:23] Ciaran Laval: Yes Jack

[11:23] Qie Niangao: gee, shame small parcel owners only get 3 prims--that's intolerance!

[11:23] IntLibber Brautigan: Rem maybe small parcel owners are tired of your harassment and extortion attempts?

[11:23] Bart Heart: Yes Jack , just ban the people that grief you, not everyone

[11:23] Fontte Newbold: I feel that, if LL intends to continue maintaining the mainland, that they should be proactive about these problems and give us the tools we need to ignore or mitigate offending parcels and uses of neighboring land.

[11:23] Rem Nightfire: are you accusing me of somethiung? if so makeit official or shut up

[11:23] Ciaran Laval: If it's for sale it should be accessible

[11:23] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: simple fix iswhen land goes for sale there is no ban lines allowed to put on LL could fix their software for that

[11:24] Fontte Newbold: Otherwise we all don't know where we stand.

[11:24] Willy Baroque: if you actually still live there, no problems with ban lines, but on 16m2 its useless

[11:24] Jack Linden: i guess maybe the middle ground, is that public entry be forced open for land For Sale, but individuals that are banned remain banned

[11:24] Stray Underwood: It seems alot of you think you know what the word Harrassment is

[11:24] Holocluck Henly: Jack: you are suggesting you still use the land and there's a reason to protect yourself from unsavory types? But then wouldnt you ban by name?

[11:24] Nefertiti Nefarious: Jack - if it's mainland howis the buyer going to check out the terrain and neighbors? Binoculars?

[11:24] Ciaran Laval: Yes that's a good solution Jack

[11:24] Jack Linden: yeah that could work and still be fair

[11:24] IntLibber Brautigan: "Live" there? Dude you dont live eat and sleep on your 512 trailer lot.

[11:24] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Great, Solution. If Linden lab would have followed the slogan we wouldn't be her ein the first place.

[11:24] Holocluck Henly: I walk sale land. I want to see my views and what sort of terraforming I would need to do as part of the process

[11:24] IntLibber Brautigan: you have content there, that is all

[11:24] Bart Heart: Yea Macy's is have a sale, but the store is not open. Same as banning peoplle when you have a lot for sale

[11:24] Erie Runningbear: Jack, I don't like ban lines, but I don't believe we should be told we can't ban individuals

[11:24] Jack Linden: I'd also like to get ban lines themselves an optional visible item

[11:24] Stray Underwood: so i do not have a say who can be on my land if im selling it

[11:25] IntLibber Brautigan: a merchant with an SLX account needs a 16 meter parcel for his magic box

[11:25] Fontte Newbold: Which raises an excellent secondary question:

[11:25] Fontte Newbold: Script use by land size.

[11:25] Cytherea Eagle: would that include the arbor ban ball induced ban lines?

[11:25] Erie Runningbear: Yes, Jack, why can't we have ban lines that are invisible, like when I try to cross a banned parcel I get a blue drop down

[11:25] Holocluck Henly: someone adjacent to myself and my neighbor has a 48sw plot with a couple trees. no harm.

[11:25] Holocluck Henly: sq i mean

[11:25] Rem Nightfire: invisible is not a solution

[11:26] Jack Linden: Erie, i think what we're saying is that For Sale land should be Open, unless you've banned specific residents, in which case those people would still be banned

[11:26] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Makes sense to me

[11:26] ROBO Marx: if i have a fence around my house would it deter u from coming in

[11:26] Nefertiti Nefarious: Cytherea Eagle: The ClockTower project is over. YOu might be personally banned,but the ban-ball is gone

[11:26] ROBO Marx: same thing ban lines do

[11:26] Fontte Newbold: I would say land for sale should disable all ban attempts, including throttling llTeleportAvatarHome, push, and rez.

[11:26] Holocluck Henly: re hide banlines: remember land hoggers also use the banlines to crowd you out. again it's alpha textures in your trees and windows

[11:26] Stray Underwood: so now we are told what we can do with land we own?

[11:26] Cytherea Eagle: ty

[11:26] Stray Underwood: who we allow access

[11:26] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: also forsale land should have no builds on them only for owner that way noobs cant go around rezzing bad scripts all over the grid and have them run 24-7

[11:26] ROBO Marx: yep SU

[11:26] IntLibber Brautigan: Fontte, that is not good for estate sims

[11:27] ROBO Marx: we dont own it just pay for it

[11:27] Qie Niangao: we've all always been told that

[11:27] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Honestly, all we are doing is ranting because in the end. Linden Lab and the biggest corporations get teh say

[11:27] ROBO Marx: yep

[11:27] Fontte Newbold: My personal opinion is, given the lack of adequate privacy controls on anything *but* estates, ban lines don't do a whole lot in 95% of all cases.

[11:27] Fontte Newbold: But that's just an opin. :p

[11:27] Ciaran Laval: Banlines are a pain I wish we could at least turn off the visibility ourselves

[11:27] Bloodfrom Inglewood: It's that simple. I know I am rather militant, but I am not stupid. I am an amiernca. I know how americans minds think. Our word means nothing untill we are billioniares.

[11:28] Holocluck Henly: what I wish we had was restrict spatialized sound to this parcel checked as a default. too many people buy land and unwittingly plague their neighbors with object sounds. let someone who knows enough turn it off when they join lands

[11:28] Erie Runningbear: Agreed Ciaran

[11:28] Fontte Newbold: I would hope that that system is rethought from its foundation and redesigned to be more useful.

[11:28] Stray Underwood: This is a free speech enviroment right?

[11:28] Kara Spengler: true, ever try explaining to someone with a skybox that their land-based banlines do them no good at all?

[11:28] Ewan Mureaux: america!=the world

[11:28] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: it is till you mention twiny's

[11:28] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: *twinky's

[11:28] Nefertiti Nefarious: Stray ... no, this is Linden Labs. YOu want free speech, buy your own srevers.

[11:28] Erie Runningbear: What would be even nicer is an option to make it so your parcel doesn't have to accept sound from surrounding parcels

[11:28] IntLibber Brautigan: You are darn right America != The world, and thank god for that

[11:28] Talarus Luan: Banlines visually don't bother me; I don't see them unless I am right on top of them

[11:29] Bloodfrom Inglewood: We must be honest with ourselves. In the end Linden Lab needs to pay bills and so do we. Jack probably has a family wife and kids. This game is not an easy life. You can't make moeny off her I think you won't struggle like in real life.

[11:29] Holocluck Henly: free speech does not include harassment defamation and abuse. that's all. someone at another office hour a few weeks back felt they exercised their right to verbally abuse women

[11:29] Fontte Newbold: But IntLibber, America *is* the world. Haven't you been to the South? :p

[11:29] Rem Nightfire: topic?

[11:29] Bloodfrom Inglewood: You have to accept that fact, that his virtual world is a supermarket and the mangers get the final say, and if you don't liek it they just ask you to leave

[11:29] Talarus Luan: I'm still waiting on answer to my questions 15 minutes ago.

[11:29] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: will there be a SL bailout plan to help residents

[11:29] Jack Linden: :) so, does anyone have a question, maybe something unrelated? :)

[11:30] IntLibber Brautigan: Likewise to my questions

[11:30] Holocluck Henly: the point is this ISNT a freespace it IS privately run. Linden is THE WORLD

[11:30] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Talarus you won't get the answer. You are not corp CEO.

[11:30] Fontte Newbold: I think some questions got lost in the melee.

[11:30] Talarus Luan: Darn :-/

[11:30] Drongle McMahon: Re banlines :

[11:30] Stray Underwood: It seems like an attempt to do damage to current land owners, so they say screw it and leave giving LL back its land. Is all of this just an attempt to get rid of people turning profits, because LL now wants these profits for them self?

[11:30] JayT Axel: you american belise so much that you are the center of the world, get out of you state first and then you'll see how big the world is. we are not here to talk about america or what ever, we are here to talk about the future of our business here.

[11:30] Jack Linden: an SL bailout plan?

[11:30] Chaos Mohr: In world land search is screwed as it is due to bugs, and atm is optimized to allow bots and altered clients the most advantage hence the current market situation where there is a nice chunk of available land right now below Linden auction start prices - any comment on that Jack?

[11:30] Bloodfrom Inglewood: I bet if I was IBM. I would get my way.

[11:30] Ciaran Laval: Jack reset Elysian Isle I can't get in to see Terry pratchett!

[11:30] Bloodfrom Inglewood: We need no bailout plan.

[11:30] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: yea kind of like a 700 billion L$ to help residents

[11:30] Firedog Lorefield: holy do you get anything accomplished here?

[11:30] Jack Linden: Stray, absolutely not.

[11:30] Bloodfrom Inglewood: The people haven't a problem. Spam hasn't been stopped. Never will be.

[11:30] Ewan Mureaux: unrelated: Jack why is it so har to give you guys money? I want to pay for an alts premium membership with my positive balance on this account but I cant

[11:30] Nefertiti Nefarious: ELECTION ISSUES: I have AR'ed a coupleof huge political signs ... 40M tallm floating and rotating. Are they exempt,or just another sign?

[11:30] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: my profits are down now that the sl ecomony has tanked

[11:30] Doug Pau: I have a question about legitmate network advertising. How do businesses get approved to have locations in over 50sims. I asked through Live Chat and ticket submit, and no one could help me.

[11:30] ROBO Marx: good point SU how bout an answer on that

[11:30] Ewan Mureaux: hard*

[11:31] Stray Underwood: Well Jack that is the idea alot of business owners are getting

[11:31] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Libsecondlife is a tool of destruction. Someone can add thmselves to your friends list. Other have liden friends that erase accoutns. I am not trying to use propaganda

[11:31] Holocluck Henly: The problem with too many people "turning profits" is they feel they have more rights than people here for the experience. sorry if I dont regard most of you types with respect after my experiences.

[11:31] IntLibber Brautigan: lol sure Jack, I'll get in line for 700 billion L$ to bail me out of my investments that have been destroyed by ranting socialists and predatory land dumpers

[11:31] Bloodfrom Inglewood: I seen it happen time and time again

[11:31] Stray Underwood: the vibe of you have made enough profit now leave

[11:31] Stray Underwood: thats how it looks

[11:31] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Again no disrespect toy uo jack or your work

[11:31] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: the 300L$ per week just is enough anymore

[11:31] Talarus Luan: I wanted to know what timeframe we are looking at, in loose terms, for the implementation of the rest of the mainland "cleanup" plan, noting that while LL is "thinking about it", more land is being cut and strategically placed every day until it does.

[11:31] Cory Toll: Yes, i'd like to know about the legit network advertising too

[11:31] ThaBiGGDoGG Richez: *isnt

[11:31] Jack Linden: Nefertiti, we'd have to look at those before we can really make a call

[11:32] Bloodfrom Inglewood: How about the people elect government officals?

[11:32] Talarus Luan: Weeks, Months, Years, what?

[11:32] ROBO Marx: it over TL

[11:32] ROBO Marx: remeber u said u won

[11:32] Cytherea Eagle: Jack, you need to update the new rules for adverts...I understand that floating text is disallowed but it does not say so on your blog.

[11:32] Jack Linden checks his pockets for spare L$billions

[11:32] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Representives.

[11:32] Fontte Newbold: In a reactive frame, isn't that an iterative process, Tal?

[11:32] Holocluck Henly: it pays for my uploads re 300L - i dont pay rent and Linden doesnt charge rent. you want fancy bling for that 300?

[11:32] Bloodfrom Inglewood: I don't buy bling.

[11:33] Holocluck Henly: thats a lotta fishbait LOL

[11:33] Bloodfrom Inglewood: But thanks for the assuming your sterotype is very...well nvm

[11:33] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Bling bling

[11:33] Fontte Newbold: Cytherea has a point on consistency. ^

[11:33] Cytherea Eagle: also, I see tons of these tiny fountains that have particles and are NOT phantom that advertise a group. Will this trash be cleaned up?

[11:33] Stray Underwood: When large numbers of business owners start thinking there is an anti business vibe starting maybe the focus of the issue should not be if you are allowed to ban people from entering your land, or what price people think is fair for selling stuff, but may be the issues are bigger then that, maybe LL should look at why business people, rl and sl are not happy.

[11:33] Jack Linden: Talarus.. i want to look at, specifically, camping and land cutting next. both are problems. it would be good to get posts about those out before the end of october

[11:33] IntLibber Brautigan: Why is floating text disallowed on adverts?

[11:33] Fontte Newbold: Consistency of reporting these new plans and within the process is required here.

[11:33] Jack Linden: so that's the aim

[11:33] Holocluck Henly: I dont know i havent seen your av - i have the camera in one position

[11:33] Ewan Mureaux: The point I was trying to make Jack was that I wish you treated us per person and not per avatar. I have this joke where I can have a 5/10k USD trading limit on several accounts but can just pay for one with the other

[11:33] Bloodfrom Inglewood: hmm ok

[11:33] Firedog Lorefield: need to stop land extortion from the likes of robo

[11:34] ROBO Marx: camping

[11:34] Firedog Lorefield: that would be a big help sewing land back together

[11:34] Jack Linden: Ewan: understood

[11:34] ROBO Marx: whats bad about camping now!! thats a new 1

[11:34] Rem Nightfire: sounds good jack

[11:34] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Int I must go to a social event, but please update the ACE group on what goes on here please

[11:34] Stray Underwood: firedog that is a personal attack

[11:34] Ciaran Laval: The issue of phnatom ads is a fair one I've seen some that aren't phantom remain

[11:34] Talarus Luan: OK, how about extortion and harassment with land?

[11:34] IntLibber Brautigan: ok Blood

[11:34] Bloodfrom Inglewood: Thank you all for your time you all hae a nice day

[11:34] Bloodfrom Inglewood: :-D

[11:34] Jack Linden: Firedog.. please keep from being personal.

[11:34] Firedog Lorefield: its rampant

[11:34] Talarus Luan: Because I keep ARing it, but it doesn't seem to be on the agenda for cleanup.

[11:34] Firedog Lorefield: ok

[11:34] Holocluck Henly: ah ok now i see bloodfrom

[11:34] Bloodfrom Inglewood: As for you jack, nice hat

[11:34] ROBO Marx: how a bout dragon tears

[11:35] Doug Pau: One of my alternate accounts was frozen and a networked advertising billboard that was 6m tall attatched to the ground was returned to me. No one could clarify why it was returned and my account was unfrozen. I was under the impression networked advertising was okay as long as we followed the rules. Through ticket support all I was told was to read the Blog ToS update again. :/

[11:35] Holocluck Henly shrugs

[11:35] Jack Linden: hehe Bloodfrom

[11:35] Holocluck Henly: still dotn see why 300 isnt enough

[11:35] Holocluck Henly: was it moving or grlowing Doug?

[11:35] IntLibber Brautigan: yes Jack I've gotten many reports of the g-team violating the new policy and punishing people who are sticking to the rules

[11:35] Dytska Vieria: Jack, with the recent viewer update in the RC series- VWR-9351: Incorrect sort order is displayed in results of Land Search The Auction search in the in world search cannot be sorted buy Auction ID # anymore.

[11:35] ROBO Marx: yes violations should be explained in detail

[11:36] Chaos Mohr reminds Jack of a suggestion a few weeks ago to have another concierge Linden attend these meetings so that questions can be que'd for answers as trying to follow all the chat is next to impossible

[11:36] Jack Linden: Doug.. the limit is not per account, so perhaps that was an issue. hard to know without looking in detail. you can always file an Abuse Appeal ticket

[11:36] Cytherea Eagle: I had to go to live chat to clarify some things before I built my new boards...the rules are not complete and in some places too vague

[11:36] Holocluck Henly: chaos good idea LOL

[11:36] Jack Linden: Chaos, you'r absolutely right. i need to do that hehe.

[11:36] Fontte Newbold: I also think, re abuses of "view" and extortion, that these things are more difficult to quantify than land cutting or camping rates. But -- that we still need an "ignore parcel" feature in the viewer to just shut off render on what we don't want to see.

[11:36] Nefertiti Nefarious: IntLibber ... perhapsif those persons toldJACK and not you, spomething could be done. As is it, it's hearsay.

[11:36] Jack Linden: people tend to direct IM me a lot at these meetings too.

[11:36] Talarus Luan: I wait until later. :)

[11:36] IntLibber Brautigan: they've tried to tell Jack and others at the lab but they get ignored

[11:37] Firedog Lorefield: makes note....dont im jack

[11:37] Doug Pau: Jack, on a different note, do you know if those "survey machines" are considered network advertising if we have those in more than one sim?

[11:37] Holocluck Henly: usually Lindens' Ims are overloaded.

[11:37] Jack Linden: intlibber, if you have examples of GTeam overstepping, by all means notecard those to me.

[11:37] Arawn Spitteler: Sometimes, when I run a class, I'll go so far as to set busy

[11:37] IntLibber Brautigan: ok Jack

[11:37] Frank Essel: jack i have a question concerning estates, it has been said certain estate owners or maybe all have the ability to put a sim in ap ersons name and be the payee as well, is this ppossible and if so how is it done?

[11:37] Jack Linden: we have been reviewing the decisions though, so far we've been very consistent as a whole

[11:37] Cytherea Eagle: the moles overstep alot

[11:37] Bart Heart: The Name Tizzers thats one way

[11:38] Willow Halfpint: Theres not enough in-world linden estates

[11:38] Willow Halfpint: only dita keira and, Spike are in-world

[11:38] Jack Linden: Frank: that has always been a feature of islands. to nominate a different Owner than Payor

[11:38] Jack Linden: as far as we are concerned the true owner is the payor as they get billed

[11:38] Frank Essel: is it done thru support portal submit ticket?

[11:39] Willow Halfpint: i see people here everyday, saying its imposable to find in-world help

[11:39] Jack Linden: Frank.. yes

[11:39] Willow Halfpint: i have to fix alot of the proplems and i dont get payed

[11:39] Frank Essel: and is there a cost?

[11:39] Jack Linden: if the payor doesn't change, i believe not Frank

[11:39] Frank Essel: thank you jack

[11:40] Cytherea Eagle: Jack, , I see tons of these tiny fountains that have particles and are NOT phantom that advertise a group. Will this trash be cleaned up?

[11:40] Arawn Spitteler suggests using colors, for furniture, rather than textures, as this room is not rezzing

[11:41] Frank Essel: so as Execuitve Estate Director for rich Grainger am i able to submit this support ticket and aask that rich grianger remain payor and have a name submitted as sim owner or is thois only done thru rich's support ticket?

[11:41] Firedog Lorefield: thinks thats the least of the worries

[11:41] Holocluck Henly: you mean those wish fountains on sale land?

[11:41] Stray Underwood: All the topics here tend to show a future where the long time residents move away from mainland and only new accounts will be on the mainland, the people that dont buy land, the people that go for freebies and do not spend. Is the goal of "fixing" these issues to remove long standing business from the mainland?

[11:41] Jack Linden: Cytherea - if you think they are causing widespread badness to the Mainland, then please AR them and we'll look

[11:41] Willow Halfpint: all im trying to say is i have aplyed to work in linden estates and i do, reguar, and theres no staff in-world to help people, its not fair on me, cos im not a linden

[11:41] Holocluck Henly: and as usual their trickling is not restricted to the parcel

[11:41] Cytherea Eagle: NO, I feel what is good and just for one is good and just for the other.

[11:41] Holocluck Henly: i coouldnt live near one of those i'd have t leave the room constantly lol

[11:42] Willow Halfpint: i love to help be, im over run

[11:42] Anja Drevnerussky: I'd like to know why camping is a topic on your agenda

[11:42] Willow Halfpint: but*

[11:42] Jack Linden: Stray.. actually.. part of the huge effort going into the Mainland is to make it *the* most attractive place to live inworld. we've alot to do, but old or new residents, i would hope they will all see this in time

[11:42] Rem Nightfire: its so much better already jack

[11:42] Fontte Newbold: How are you scaling enforcement out to cover the volume of ARs and trouble areas?

[11:42] Talarus Luan: I hope so, too, assuming there is anyone left around to see it by the time it gets done, Jack.

[11:43] Stray Underwood: but telling people what to do with their land, what to sell at and all of the tpocis here dont make it business friendly

[11:43] Nefertiti Nefarious: Those littlefountains woud not be a problem IF sound were by defaultrestricted to the parcels. But they are annoying!

[11:43] Qie Niangao: Jack, I know Support is trying very hard (not quite so sure about Governance, but Concierge has been doing wonders)

[11:43] Stray Underwood: mainland has a anti business feel growing

[11:43] Arawn Spitteler wonders if he might be sitting on everybody

[11:43] Jack Linden: Anja.. because with camping we have a situation where one resident uses far more of the regions resource than their land ownership warrants. .causing people that own land in the region to be unable to go to their home

[11:43] Fontte Newbold: Because once you get into the business of restricting content, it's the dark path that never ends. ;)

[11:43] Fontte Newbold: (Though we started that with DMCAs)

[11:43] Ewan Mureaux: mainland business has got a lot better since the new restrictions came in

[11:43] Cytherea Eagle: I agree. I see the difference. I am glad of the new rules but feel that they should apply to everyone, not just the few.

[11:43] Holocluck Henly: I can tell you one thing from my last experiece with being pushed off land. the people who do this expect this to be the trash and their idea is "if you want land where no one deliberately blocks your view, go get an island" when they probably should since they cannot coexist with neighbors and have to overrun them

[11:43] Nefertiti Nefarious: Stray- I rent in a sim FULL of businesses.

[11:44] Willow Halfpint: bottom line from me, Plz hire some more In-world linden helpers, e.g me would be nice

[11:44] Holocluck Henly: except mainland is where you DO have neighbors and coexist

[11:44] Jack Linden: Fontte, yes.. which is why we tread so very carefully

[11:44] Cytherea Eagle: I sorry..

[11:44] Cytherea Eagle: I made a big mistake with my ad boards and for that I am I'm Sorry! to the SL public.

[11:44] Stray Underwood: so we will have tight advertising policy and no camping... may people will just find us someday?

[11:44] Firedog Lorefield: i havent even started on the DCMA's yet....i have the highest ranked neon site on works are all over sl ....

[11:44] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack I have to say the way you are going about "improving" the mainland is going to make it a suburban hell hole of residential sims and all the businesses will leave the mainland due to harassment and extortion schemes by ranters.

[11:44] Fontte Newbold: Cytherea does, again, have a point on clarity and consistency, though throwing the baby out with the bathwater is obviously NOT the goal.

[11:44] Firedog Lorefield: and yet i get nothing for it

[11:44] Jack Linden: hehe noted Willow

[11:44] Willow Halfpint: check my picks im no Joke

[11:45] Fontte Newbold: Which is to say, I don't think anyone here wants *all* advertising media to go away, just the most parasitic forms that pray on others' land and rights to use that land.

[11:45] Willow Halfpint: im deadly sirus about helping people and have linked with many lindens to give people i help more than just a URL

[11:45] Dytska Vieria: If that is hell, Int, I'll take it.

[11:45] Bushido Contepomi: Jack: Is it considered ligitimate business practice if a group owned by an unpaid alt is in posession of a stratagically placed overpriced micro parcel?

[11:45] ROBO Marx: if any one stays in the ML Int.

[11:45] Cytherea Eagle: I sorry..

[11:45] Cytherea Eagle: I see the beauty once again that I did when Cyth was born. I am truly I'm Sorry! to all I have cause undue issue for.

[11:45] Doug Pau: Jack, lets say I got a ton of roadside plots. 400sq+, and placed down gas stations, diners, bars, etc. to help enhance the roadside appearance, and to help pay tier I have a networked advertisement billboard connected to the sign for the place, like a gas station sign for example. Would that be allowed, and would that be something that would allow me to go beyond a presence 50 sims?

[11:45] Jack Linden: Intlibber, I don't agree. I suspect that when we have commercial zoning we will see incredible opportunities for businesses

[11:45] Holocluck Henly: Intlibber if you are referring to people like me - people who consider this their downtime, and if i make something then nice i have my uploads covered or something... but make my land fun and visitable and DO coexist with my new neighbors, then hey call me whatever you want.

[11:46] Holocluck Henly: and call the mainland whatever you want

[11:46] Willow Halfpint: for E.g philip linden just loged off :-p

[11:46] Jack Linden: Bushido.. i can't comment on individual cases mid-office hour.. as i haven't looked. but please AR if you feel there is an abuse

[11:46] ROBO Marx: commercial zoning

[11:46] Bart Heart: Yea Willow but Zee Linden is still on and he counts the beans

[11:46] Bushido Contepomi: Is this Alt abuse Ar (able)

[11:46] Fontte Newbold: Cytherea, I may dislike your advertising billboards, but you do have a relevant point on visibility and consistency of process. So do continue. :)

[11:46] IntLibber Brautigan: No Bushido

[11:46] ROBO Marx: why isnt that started already so businesses now if their place is in violation already

[11:47] Willow Halfpint: theres alot of lindens online

[11:47] Willow Halfpint: but jacks here alone

[11:47] ROBO Marx: is that going to be sprung upon us...

[11:47] Jack Linden: Doug.. the 50 rule would still stand. however, there will always be edge cases and we will judge those on a per case basis to be as fair as we can

[11:47] Willow Halfpint: note make more help IN-WORLD

[11:47] Neptune Shelman: Is cutting plots for the sole purpose of selling them later at an extortionate price going to carry on being accepted

[11:47] IntLibber Brautigan: alt abuse is when you log onto alt accounts to threaten legitimate busienss people in order to avoid accountability for your terrorism

[11:47] Willow Halfpint: im asked crazy questions everyday

[11:47] Cytherea Eagle: Fontte, thank you, all my boards are gone from the grid. I am building new ones that meet and exceed the new rules.

[11:47] Willow Halfpint: that would help LL no end

[11:48] Stray Underwood: If this reworking of mainland is considered good by the loudest people, will estates be reworked next?

[11:48] Arawn Spitteler notes need for a thread parsing tool, in chat, now that he can disstinguish furniture from avatars.

[11:48] Fontte Newbold: IntLibber, calling people that don't agree with your statements "terrorists" isn't helping. :p

[11:48] Holocluck Henly: as i've posted i think the big problem re zoning are these malls. they are definitely a clash most of the time. one almost went up where I live now and it would have killed the cultural feel of an old region. they're almost tyrannical sometimes. these sure could use zoning

[11:48] Willow Halfpint: like where to place servers for, incresses in population on $

[11:48] Jack Linden: Neptune: we will look at land cutting soon. we know it's a problem

[11:48] Neptune Shelman: thankyou

[11:48] Jack Linden: Stray - estates are very different. the Mainland is *our* estate

[11:48] Frank Essel: with the zoning of mainland i expect to see a ton of new custoemrs i have never had before at my office

[11:49] Rich Grainger: i would like to support this idea, mainland has been a mess for some time. perhaps is just what we need to keep attracting new people

[11:49] Bushido Contepomi: Jack, were you able to see my question? (about an unpaying resident ALT) Owning Land for the Use of Extortion

[11:49] Fontte Newbold: Is there any work being done by the land team on possible Linden-run advertising programs?

[11:49] Stray Underwood: that was not a yes or no lol

[11:49] ROBO Marx: how bout zoning ajck

[11:49] Holocluck Henly: mom n pop places are certainly not the problem. my own home land has a gallery and a couple things but they all blend in... its not the same as plopping a monstrosity cog building in the middle of homes and trees

[11:49] Fontte Newbold: To offer the people that honestly do want to advertise the space to do so?

[11:49] Fontte Newbold: Say, Busy Ben's vehicle lot.

[11:49] ROBO Marx: Will OLD sims be commercially zoned???

[11:49] Cytherea Eagle: Jack, I had several 2m tall tiny for sale signs that meet all new rules returned to me but I still see a ton of for sale boards, signs, cubes and tiles that violate the new rules. Care to comment on what will happen to those?

[11:49] IntLibber Brautigan: I am proud to say that my private estates have never had adfarming problems and we've never needed zoning against them or price controls to do it

[11:49] Willow Halfpint: it just upsets me that people like myself with the knolage and skills to help carnt even be a mentor, in SL, and its imposable to get in-world help and i apply to work with LL, every 3 months like clock work

[11:50] Jack Linden: Bushido.. yes. but as i said you'd need to AR it, i can't answer such specific questions without any details

[11:50] IntLibber Brautigan: and we do not seize land either

[11:50] Fontte Newbold: IntLibber: That's because you have a second layer of abstraction that scales faster than Linden enforcement.

[11:50] ROBO Marx: How about mainland JACk

[11:50] Fontte Newbold: Namely: resident landowners.

[11:50] IntLibber Brautigan: what does that mean Fontte?

[11:50] Holocluck Henly: AR any that are violations cynthea. its a big mainland and no doubt they havent been caught by thestaff

[11:50] Cytherea Eagle: it looks so much better already

[11:50] Kara Spengler: Cytherea: oh, you mean the 5 'for sale' signs on the 80 m2 plot?

[11:50] Fontte Newbold: It means the market

[11:50] Fontte Newbold: It means the market for private estates works better because it's designed better from the start, in terms of scalability.

[11:50] Nefertiti Nefarious: Cytherea ... file an AR on the signs you think are in violation. Jack can'tknow where they are, but you do.

[11:50] ROBO Marx: Will it be rezoned commercially

[11:50] Stray Underwood: Willow now is not the time for job hunting with LL

[11:50] Cytherea Eagle: I had forgotten it is not just about the Ls

[11:50] Willow Halfpint: Have you ever met a linden that in there profile it tells you what problems they deal with????????

[11:51] Holocluck Henly: hey i didnt even know i lived near a water view in my new place. but by oct 2 there it was

[11:51] Fontte Newbold: The question then is what to do about the mainland that was already parcelled off and sold under Linden mandate.

[11:51] Jack Linden: Robo.. whether we allow old regions to Opt in to zoning hasn't been decided. But we're very unlikely to enforce it

[11:51] Fontte Newbold: This is the basic assumption of why we're here.

[11:51] Jack Linden: That wouldn't seem fair

[11:51] Bushido Contepomi: The Group Owned By RN Footman for Example

[11:51] Kara Spengler: Cytherea: the 5 were down to 2 today, so I assume you had 3 spinning signs in your lost&found last night

[11:51] Willow Halfpint: i dont see why not. i Do there job every day for free

[11:51] Holocluck Henly: i cant envy the balance you have to keep between land aesthetics and those which cross over into conflicts

[11:51] ROBO Marx: OK TY jack

[11:52] Stray Underwood: Willow speak with human resources not jack

[11:52] Holocluck Henly: Willow I help new people when i can. I dont need a tag to do it

[11:52] Fontte Newbold: I still think the most utility to this problem would be gained through visibility of process and client-side ignore controls.

[11:52] IntLibber Brautigan: if aesthetics were an AR offense 90% of the mainland residents would be permbanned

[11:52] Fontte Newbold: But that's just me.

[11:52] Willow Halfpint: try and get hold of one?

[11:52] Jack Linden: Yes Willow. You have to go through the hire process.

[11:52] Erie Runningbear: And I've never had a problem finding a linden if needed, it's a huge list

[11:52] Holocluck Henly: I do it because I want them to get a good start not for any illusory glor

[11:52] Willow Halfpint: char linden declines notecards

[11:52] Holocluck Henly: y

[11:52] Fontte Newbold: If you don't like it, highlight -> ignore parcel, done.

[11:52] Neptune Shelman: that b'st*rd is the one who has been bothering me to bushido

[11:52] Stray Underwood: Linden labs is an rl company, pick up the phone

[11:53] Fontte Newbold: It's not like I complain that the rest of the world wide web is ad-infested. I block the stuff I don't want to see.

[11:53] Willow Halfpint: thats a fair point, thanks

[11:53] Holocluck Henly: actually those damn lucky chairs have been a problem, and i couldnt mute one the other day.

[11:53] Frank Essel: go online and submit and paplication thru the support portal for job listings

[11:53] Bart Heart:

[11:53] Fontte Newbold: And if I want to earnestly support a site, I donate. :p

[11:53] Holocluck Henly: they scream through the whole region. maybe they should be limited to private estates

[11:53] Jack Linden: thanks bart

[11:53] Willow Halfpint: i live on that page

[11:54] Bart Heart: np Jack

[11:54] Jack Linden: Willow, bear in mind that we get hundreds of notecards.. especially the better known lindens

[11:54] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Jack, for some time now there's been contention over what constitutes "blocking" someone and when it's harassment, etc. There seem to be no consistent standard and nobody ever seems to have gotten a solid answer.

[11:54] Jack Linden: It can be impossible to accept tham all

[11:54] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Banning people from your land when it surrounds part or all of someone's parcel or large picture walls on parcel edges for example. The only reference point we have is not blocking access but with direct teleports you technically always have access. Will these issues ever be clarified or is it to be left entirely to the judgement of the Linden dealing with each situation?

[11:54] IntLibber Brautigan: land owners SHOULD be able to make their parcels immune to scripted chatter and shouts and sounds coming from other parcels

[11:54] Jack Linden: *them

[11:54] Holocluck Henly: lol i dont live near san francisco. i could have taken one of the customer service ones in a second. I'm a tier 3 global coordinator for a major corp website. handholding consierge is easy stuff

[11:55] Cytherea Eagle: Kara, I have a lot of land and continue to remove and replace the "for sale" ones...the ad network was my first priority to remove.

[11:55] Willow Halfpint: all im saying im here everyday, i feel stong about helping people even had to learn german to help more people, and dita sits here busy, ( thats fair ) keira is on every so offten and spike is on everyday

[11:55] Erie Runningbear: Wow, Intlibber, I actually agree with you on that

[11:55] Holocluck Henly: Afroduck the date of acquisition would show who is trying to conquer whom right? wouldnt that help a case?

[11:55] Fontte Newbold: IntLibber: I think the problem you're getting at is the fact parcels, as are currently sold, are not the sort of "islands of privacy" as advertised.

[11:55] Jack Linden: Afro: I think you'll see us look more at those situations, but it'll always have to be a call we make in each case

[11:55] Fontte Newbold: Which necessitates an entirely different paradigm than the existing.

[11:55] Firedog Lorefield: i am one and a half tier...trying to bring my company's into sl./....havent found the right person to assist me yet

[11:56] Stray Underwood: rules to be determind per case is very bias

[11:56] IntLibber Brautigan: that and that when land is sold, it defaults public building, scripts and object entry ON, which encourages and abets griefing

[11:56] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Alright. Just wanted to get a bit of feedback on the issue

[11:56] Jack Linden: Intlibber, yes. being able to stop chatter would be very useful

[11:56] Tyrian Camilo: Indeed, defaulting to openness is bad, should be passed on, aswell autoreturn should be passed on imho

[11:56] Qie Niangao: actually, llShout() should be unable to function on channel 0, and llParcelSay should replace it.

[11:56] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Holocluck: Yeah, that can help but it can have its own problems too.

[11:56] Willow Halfpint: and jack yes there lots of notecards because people dont know what the lindens jobs aare thats why torley gets asked everything

[11:56] Holocluck Henly: half a year and i knew whatsername was trying to crowd me out. it gets old fast doesnt it

[11:56] IntLibber Brautigan: if LL fixed these problems with parcel settings and control a lot of the public concerns would be alleviated

[11:57] Bart Heart: We could alwyas go back to when it cost 10L$ to rez an object, that would deter grifers

[11:57] Holocluck Henly: well the amount of land when looked at chronologically shows they are using the land as a weapon I think.

[11:57] Jack Linden: ironically, i have 2 large adverts and a non stop chattering vendor beside my alts parcel.

[11:57] Holocluck Henly: AR them

[11:57] Lou Calamari: How about traffic?

[11:57] Bushido Contepomi: Is The Group PlandZ Violating TOS by Having Stategically Place Over Priced Micro Parcels, and Using an ALT as The Fall Guy (Who Will Not Going to Loose Any thing if Banned)?

[11:57] Fontte Newbold: IntLibber: A lot of that, by the way, dates back until I signed on in 2004. The ramping up of private interests in direct proportion to the popularity of Second Life highlights how wrong those original assumptions, were.

[11:57] Doug Pau: Jack, would any network advertiser ever be allowed to go over the 50 sim presence rule? The wording on the ToS made it seem like they could if they followed the ToS and got permission, but now it seems like the exception wasn't added for network advertisers.

[11:57] Dytska Vieria: Good question, Bushido.

[11:57] Jack Linden: Willow.. most lindens explain what they do in their profile don't they?

[11:58] Neptune Shelman: you should ar them jack

[11:58] Willow Halfpint: errrrrrrrrr. hell no

[11:58] Willow Halfpint: mine says more than theres

[11:58] Qie Niangao: The blog post said any exceptions to the 50 limite would be *very* rare.

[11:58] Holocluck Henly: Doug why dont you rent space on someone's region sized business?

[11:58] Neptune Shelman: HE already cheated TOS in the past with ban lines

[11:58] Fontte Newbold: Jack: How many layers of abstraction are existing abuse policies allowed to go through before they become "legitimate" or "Linden legal?"

[11:58] ROBO Marx: Im tellin

[11:58] Nefertiti Nefarious: Willow ... wearing a floaty text sign "Willow Linden" might not be helping your case.

[11:58] AfroduckFromPC Brim: Lol

[11:58] Jack Linden: Bushido.. alt abuse is against the ToS. And deliberate misleading of buyers we would also not accept

[11:59] Willow Halfpint: may as well be

[11:59] Tyrian Camilo: Doug Pau asked very good question! I'm one of those waiting Harry to decide.

[11:59] Fontte Newbold: For example, those "skill game" Linden legal casino things are laughable.

[11:59] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack I tried to apply for permission on the 50+ rule and was told your not making any exceptions, what is going on with this?

[11:59] Bushido Contepomi: Thanks Jack

[11:59] Qie Niangao: *Harry* to decide??

[11:59] Willow Halfpint: i can do what linden estates do without the tools

[11:59] Ewan Mureaux: matching two random numbers is a skill you know

[11:59] Doug Pau: Holo, I have adspace on lots of full sim islands, I was wanting to move more aggressively on the mainland.

[11:59] IntLibber Brautigan: oh god

[11:59] Willow Halfpint: i do it everday

[11:59] Cory Toll: he means harry linden

[11:59] Jack Linden: Fontte.. not sure i understand your question

[11:59] Fontte Newbold: Ditto, the 50 rule: I can forsee people creating systems of systems that only display 50 ads at any single point of time.

[11:59] IntLibber Brautigan: Harry, *face palms*

[11:59] Tyrian Camilo: Like IntLibber, that was the initial answer aswell, i kept on asking and Harry promised to think about it

[11:59] Qie Niangao: but harry runs governance, not concierge?

[11:59] Jack Linden: Intlibber.. we are not making any exceptions to the 50 rule at this time.

[11:59] Stray Underwood: Is LL loking at these issues to better sl or stop the bitching, because the economic backlash of all of this stuff will not help LL in the end.

[11:59] Fontte Newbold: The question is, in the spirit of the rule, how far does the Land Team take considerations of content?

[12:00] Doug Pau: Thanks Jack for clearing that up

[12:00] Willow Halfpint: most people just need some fast advice, not 2 months wait for help

[12:00] Jack Linden: Once we have the Mainland ad issue under control, we will review that, but that will be some time away

[12:00] Tyrian Camilo: Fontte: having only 50 ads displayed isn't the prob, installations maximum basicly is the 50, but is trivially circumvented if one wants to

[12:00] ROBO Marx: Stray just pay ur tier, they dont care LOL

[12:00] Willow Halfpint: and its my cat called that :-)

[12:00] Neptune Shelman: Jack in your forum for adfarms part2 there is someone who believes she has a syndicate of advertisers already working

[12:00] Fontte Newbold: Tyrian: That's my point, in basic terms.

[12:01] Neptune Shelman: are you checking the thread still

[12:01] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack what if i were to start a venture where individuals could buy advertising franchises in a larger ad network?

[12:01] Tyrian Camilo: Jack: When will exceptions be made? I'm loosing pure cash here, i did own probably the ONLY ethical advertising network, well still own, land just sits empty and we cannto sell advertising, a lot of business owners are missing a huge chunk of revenues right now

[12:01] Ewan Mureaux: hahahahahhaa

[12:01] IntLibber Brautigan: would the 50 limit apply to me or just to each franchisee?

[12:01] Tyrian Camilo: Jack: That includes RL businesses aswell, one of which just expanded to second sim

[12:01] Timo Daehlie: ethical ?

[12:01] Timo Daehlie: lol

[12:01] Jack Linden: Fontte.. that is a hard question to answer. I think the key point is that we note and document everything so that we naturally achieve consistency. but we'll never be able to legislate everything

[12:01] ROBO Marx: yeah see bushy threaten me jack

[12:01] Stray Underwood: Allowing people to buy land, then telling them they cant do what ever they want on it also will damage peoples urge to buy mainland

[12:01] ROBO Marx: LOL

[12:01] Fontte Newbold: Is there any chance some of that can be pawned off to residents?

[12:01] ROBO Marx: computer thugs

[12:01] Willow Halfpint: also if someone is banned you can get back by changing I.P address

[12:01] Willow Halfpint: ????????

[12:02] Willow Halfpint: you need to fix that

[12:02] Fontte Newbold: For example: Pass on screenshots to the resident base as a whole similar to, and have them offer an opinion of pass/fail on a given metric.

[12:02] Tyrian Camilo: Timo: You used to be supportive of my cause, until you figured out that i can actually make money with it. What's up with thaT? We used to be friends aswell, and help each other out. Enough of your slander

[12:02] Fontte Newbold: Would give you a great deal more information than you have now.

[12:02] IntLibber Brautigan: Jack Please read up to my questions

[12:02] Holocluck Henly: depends on the type of people who want to do contrary things with their land. you think their average new user sees land as a prospect to trash it up? no they want to make somethign better than they have in RL to keep the illusion.

[12:02] Cytherea Eagle: I sorry..

[12:02] Cytherea Eagle: To the SL public. If you see any signage of mine that violates ToS/ToC and or the new rules, please feel free to IM me and I will remove asap. Also, all of my nasty boards are gone. If I missed one or two I am I'm Sorry! and will come asap to remove if you IM me about it. I will also swap land and no cost with residence. Once again SL residence. I am sorry for ruining our "second home". If you need me for anything please feel free to IM me or drop a NC. Thank you for listening to this long speach. ;)

[12:02] Fontte Newbold: And let you make the final determination.

[12:02] Jack Linden: I think my eyes are about to explode. :)

[12:02] Jack Linden: so much text

[12:02] Holocluck Henly: lol

[12:02] Firedog Lorefield: ya think?

[12:03] Stray Underwood: In the end this is not a democrocy, we have no real say, so does LL care about the business version, or the complainers version, or do they already have their own plans?

[12:03] Jack Linden: guys, my hour is up. I have to run to my next meeting.

[12:03] Fontte Newbold: I can see we've already made you old before your time. :)

[12:03] Tyrian Camilo: Timo: Or maybe you just haven't realized that everything has a value determined by what the possible buyer is willing to pay? (You see, all my parcels are EMPTY, so you cannot pull that extortion default argument either)

[12:03] Lou Calamari: Wondering if there are going to be changes in traffic like maybe make it weekly instead of daily? i own a club that does 6 events per day 7 days a week and it jumps around like crazy

[12:03] Doug Pau: Jack, Ill be seeing you soon.

[12:03] Timo Daehlie: save your time and words TC ;)

[12:03] Jack Linden: as always, thank you so much for all the feedback and passion.

[12:03] Holocluck Henly: Jack thanks it's been an honor. Thanks for all the work going into this project

[12:03] Ewan Mureaux: see ya jack!

[12:03] Kara Spengler: that is okay Cytherea, we will just let you know by ARing any of your ads, ll will be happy to let you know we found one :)

[12:03] Nefertiti Nefarious: Thanks Jack

[12:03] Cory Toll: Bye jack! i love you!

[12:03] Cytherea Eagle: ty Jack

[12:03] Holocluck Henly: the silent majority is no doubt grateful

[12:03] Rem Nightfire: bye jack, thanks for your great work

[12:03] Jack Linden goes pink

[12:03] IntLibber Brautigan: Ok all ad network operators, please meet with me in 10 minutes in Venture Square

[12:03] Jack Linden: thanks!