User:Qie Niangao/Jack Linden Office Hour Transcript/2009-10-15
Marianne McCann: that'd be fab. I was worried they'd been pulled in favor of getting 1.30.2 life for other reasons
Marianne McCann: live*
Enemy Coba: upss... the boss is calling
Jack Linden: They were still in last time I checked, but have just dinged someone so if they reply I will let you know hehe
Marianne McCann: Spiffy
Enemy Coba: a great day to you all see you tomorrow
Enemy Coba: bye bye
Jack Linden: oh, cheers Enemy
Helena Lycia: A friend of mine (Kitn here) has been a wahile and had to pay a fiar bit of money to get one of their accounts reactivated, only to find that the inventory has been wiped. Isn't that a tad evil?
Marianne McCann: Have fun, Enemy
Jack Linden: Helena, ouch yes, that's not fun. We actually no longer do that
Kitn Mistral: my alt actually.
Jack Linden: But hers must have happened some time ago
Kitn Mistral: too late for me though?
Kitn Mistral: feb or march.
Helena Lycia: Is there anything that can be done?
Helena Lycia: Either to get back the inventory of lessen the evil charge?
Jack Linden: Not sure, that would have to go to the support folks, I can't really comment on specific cases in the office hour
Helena Lycia: (I can understand paying to get a fully functional account back up and running but one with no inventory !)
Jack Linden: But contact support and ask, they can let you know
Kitn Mistral: I put in a ticket and they said nothing could be done. I was wondering why.
Jack Linden: We used to have a policy that old accounts would, after a period, get expunged. We changed that, so it no longer happens
Jack Linden: But once that has taken place unfortunately the inv is literally not there
Kitn Mistral: no backups?
Driftwood Miles: Jack , what is the situation with reference to Themed Mainland "Coming Soon" as advertised on the Flogorum
Jack Linden: Again, you'd need to talk to support. I can't know all the details for specific accounts etc but they can
Equinox Pinion: Jack, how can Dreamland still put grandfathered homesteads on the grid..did you make a special deal with them?
Jack Linden: Hey Driftwood.. yeah, we've been thinking a lot about zoning etc, about what we do next as far as improving the mainland goes. We especially want to make it easier for people to step into land ownership
Jack Linden: So no news, it's more likely to be a conversation right now.. so expect a blog post and request for feedback
Driftwood Miles: Coming Soon it says
Drongle McMahon: "Expunged" doesn't sound very comfortable. Are you going to expunge the remaining microplots?
Jack Linden: Indeed Driftwood, things like Bay City being expanded and maybe a new city area on a different continent. All things we plan to do.
Dytska Vieria: Yes, what is the number of remaining microplots?
Marianne McCann's ears perk up at Bay City being mentioned
Jack Linden: But we want to talk more broadly about zoning and what residents would like to see us do
Driftwood Miles: So the rumours of a Tropical theme are unfounded?
Driftwood Miles: ah I see
Drongle McMahon: make one microplot zone and move them all there.
Marianne McCann: I'd definitely like to see Bay City expanded
Ann Otoole makes note to make new horrid device called "The Expunger"
Techwolf Lupindo: I think the most popular zoning is a "NO ADS" zone.
Qie Niangao: Mari: have some microparcels. :p
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: give estate owner's tier credits for premium and you'll get more premium accounts. Many use estate to avoid having premium accounts.
Jack Linden: The count of microplots is pretty low now. As I'm on tour right now I don't have the numbers to hand but the trend is still downwards
Baron Nitely: I like to know if there is anything is going to be done about microparcel extortionists on the mainland
Jack Linden: Driftwood, if people really wanted a tropical themed area of mainland, we'd look at that. :) But no that isn't a plan
Qie Niangao: Jack, are there additional microparcel microbarons in "discussions" with you guys, to get them gone?
Driftwood Miles: Thanks Jack
Jack Linden: Baron, we do take action where it's very clearly abusive in some way. It just depends on the circumstances
Equinox Pinion: second try: Jack, how can Dreamland still put grandfathered homesteads on the grid..did you make a special deal with them?
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: are they truly adding or are they buying up the used ones?
Dytska Vieria: It seems the talks go on and no action, while the other notorious mircoparcel owners are long gone.
Jack Linden: Charlene.. ways to add value to Premium Accounts is also something we'd like feedback on. We give free land tier but should we do more than that?
Equinox Pinion: adding...60 last week....60 the wee before....and 80 2 weeks ago
Jack Linden: Should we assign them the piece of land itself?
Driftwood Miles: Over 150 Homesteads dumped onto the grid . All at Grandfathered rates.
Ciaran Laval: Options Jack, what use is free land tier to someone who doesn't own mainland?
Jack Linden: Qie.. yes.. that's still going on
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: add additional group slots for premium members. Then you'd probably get estate owners to be premium too, not all are :)
Jack Linden: Ciaran, it's a Premium Perk.. but sure, if they have no interest in land then agreed.. they would want other perks
Qie Niangao: Thanks Jack. Many of us are eager to see more progress, so good to know it's still underway.
Timo Daehlie: raise free tier up to 1024 jack
Baron Nitely: I have a ticket filed for 2 months and nothing has been done - you refered Plexus Linden to the case and he filed an abuse report - still no word
Drongle McMahon: There are three or four major microplotters who are still preventing sensible rejoining with huge prices.
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: Assignign them the land or having the old first land program back might work, the problem with the old first land program is you have to be careful how much mainland you *add*
Jack Linden: Equinox, as you know I can't comment on specific residents and what they choose to sell or not sell. We've a number of programs in place and in the works (we mentioned this in a blog post a while ago), to help estates. Some of those are still being defined, some are further on
Dytska Vieria: could recycle abandoned land to first land...
Techwolf Lupindo: Don't have to add mainland, just relise the huge number is abanded land back to market.
Jack Linden: In time we want all estates to get additional benefits and plans that allow them to grow more easily etc
Techwolf Lupindo: is=of
Dennis Lagan: we growed more easely before your stupid descisions
Equinox Pinion: wow.....so they ae in a program to get grandfathered homesteads?? where can i apply for it
Ciaran Laval: That doesn't sound good Jack
Alexxa Despres: How does on get on that 'list' ?
Alexxa Despres: one*
Jack Linden: Timo: 1024m would be an interesting change. Do you think that would make it easier to get into the land market though? It's still a very complicated thing
Jack Linden: I didn't say that Equinox hehe
Timo Daehlie: with current rates they can buy a 1024 for a 512 so it might encourage them
Driftwood Miles: but you implied it
Equinox Pinion: you did in a different way :)
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: again, if land ownership, not just mainland ownership, is a goal, then providing at least some tier credit to estate owners for premium members living on their estates, would be beneficial
Dennis Lagan: yuu just admitted it jack. else there would have been a straight no.
Timo Daehlie: might help you also to get those enormous amount of 512s filled
Dytska Vieria: teir steps would be good as well, there should be the same steps after one whole sim as there are for less than one whole sim, i.e. 1 sim + 4096...
Equinox Pinion: and else they couldnt put 300 homesteads with grandfathered tier on the grid
Ciaran Laval: Agree with Dytska about the second sim
Qie Niangao: Free land (as in First Land) wouldn't be a lot cheaper than market-price land these days.
Timo Daehlie: true Qie ;)
Driftwood Miles: It is obvious that the dialogues you are having with some estates are at the detriment to the rest. And we get fed with the, "we will get around to the others" line. All the while it becomes more and more difficult to compete. This is Linden Labs policy?
Jack Linden: Okay, i think i sounded evasive, i wasn't meaning to. So, let me try again. We talked before about needing to build programs for different kinds of estates that gave them help and support. And we have started that. That means that we are rolling out beta programs - eventually we want all estates to benefit in the same ways
Driftwood Miles: Be more specific Jack...what programs. For example are you letting ACS continue to purchase Homesteads at Granfathered tiering?
Equinox Pinion: dont know what to say that would sound nice jack....I AM REALLY UPSET
Dennis Lagan: yes, but appearantly, certain estates are aving this benefits already, right now when they are really needed, and are now unfair competition
Dennis Lagan: *having
Jack Linden: The top estates are naturally where we started, but we've only just begun really. I think estate owners are going to *love* what we are doing with this, and most sizeable estates will have heard from us before the end of the year
Driftwood Miles: OMG
Jack Linden: It's not about grandfathering.. that offer closed.
Dytska Vieria: favortism?
Drongle McMahon: What is"sizeable"?
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: while rewarding your top customers is good, placing them at unfair advantage to smaller estates isn't good for the longevity of your smaller estates
Driftwood Miles: You are letting the Likes of ACS and others have a competitive edge that puts smaller Estate Owners out of business , way to go
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: I urge you to pay attention to the turnover in estate regions and where they move to
Equinox Pinion: geeez jack....we have the biggest sailing estate in sl....we cannot expand now because we have to wait till you grandfather all homesteads...and you give them away to a "big" estate!!!!!!
Jack Linden: Agreed Charlene, and we're painfully aware of that. We know how difficult it becomes if we start causing an imbalance
Driftwood Miles: yet you do it all the time
Ciaran Laval: Giving the top estates a tier break in some form I'd say was fine, one free estate worth of tier for 250 islands gives them a break but doesn't do squat in terms of competition on the market but this doesn't sound like what you're doing here
Driftwood Miles: well said C
Driftwood Miles: competiton naturally evolves
Driftwood Miles: as does spelling
Drongle McMahon: The fewer estates, the easier it is for LL?
Jack Linden: We run into it as a problem often, very true Driftwood. When you need to push out a new product, or program or offer.. it's generally much better to do it in a controlled way and someone or some group ends up being first. We had the same issue with Blake Sea. Ultimately that was a good idea, but people were frustrated because of course we can't do 100 Blake Sea projects from day one
Driftwood Miles: This would seem to be the thinking Drongle
Jack Linden: So I totally agree, it's a very hard thing to wrangle
Alexxa Despres: so why keep rolling out all the goodies to the same people...making it even more unfair?
Equinox Pinion: that is nOT a project...they just get sims with a lower tier!!!!!!
Dytska Vieria: A substantial savings in the long run.
Driftwood Miles: Who agrees with this policy Jack other than LL and the chosen few?
Dennis Lagan: jack, you have been continiously stating in this meetings that the owners of the USS contacted you, and not the opposite, so that it was no favorism, and that you would have worked with someone else if they would contact you as the first ones for such a project. However the the main leaders of the USS are writing everywhere on the internet (SL blogs, forums,...) that you approaced them first (and with detailed descriptions, how it all took place from week to week). what is your defence?
Equinox Pinion: saving dytska??? more than that...we cannot get a homestead for 95 usd!! there is no competition for them!!!
Jack Linden: As i said, we try really hard to keep things totally even all the time but practically, sometimes we can't. There are going to be times when one community or group work with us on something earlier.
Ciaran Laval: A whole load of cheaper homesteads isn't a beta project Jack
Equinox Pinion: you dont!! you always choose the big ones!!
Equinox Pinion: and this is jsut unfair competition!!!
Driftwood Miles: That is such a kop out...it IS possible to do it evenly and in a fairer way. You are destroying smaller estates and seem happy to do so
Equinox Pinion: has nothing to do with a project
Driftwood Miles: And all done behind closed doors
Jack Linden: The idea here is that we provide all estates with much better offers, and I seriously do expect that estate owners will be really happy over the next 3 months as this stuff rolls out. We made some good decisions internally about how we value estate owners and that will become much clearer
Dennis Lagan: i thnink we urgent need to fill wikipedia with your practices.
Equinox Pinion: I really hope you will go back and announce today that alll homesteads stay at 95 USD...else i can tell you that you will b in big trouble
Alexxa Despres: Of the 23,000 private estate ...how many are in this 'beta program' ?
Ciaran Laval: 4 I think
Driftwood Miles: lmao
Jack Linden: I think we're talking to 75-80 estates at the moment. But that will ramp up.
Equinox Pinion: you knew about it ciaran?
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: dare I hope there's any movement in tier on the Open Space regions?
Alexxa Despres: LOL Ciaran..I can how jack sees it as equitabel ;-P
Jack Linden: It's only a starting point.
Driftwood Miles: WOW
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: I have two I can't afford ot remove and can't afford the tier on
Ciaran Laval: No no I know nothing, there are rumours flying around about secret talks
Driftwood Miles: regoins or estates Jack?
Dennis Lagan: jack, you have been continiously stating in this meetings that the owners of the USS contacted you, and not the opposite, so that it was no favorism, and that you would have worked with someone else if they would contact you as the first ones for such a project. However the the main leaders of the USS are writing everywhere on the internet (SL blogs, forums,...) that you approaced them first (and with detailed descriptions, how it all took place from week to week). what is your defence? do they have such a bad memory? or do you?
Jack Linden: We're pretty excited about where this will lead us. We'll be putting some much finer grained information out as well, so that people understand the roadmap
Driftwood Miles: geez spelling
Equinox Pinion: i doubt 70 or 80 get grandfathered homesteads...it is only dreamland that is filling up the grid
Driftwood Miles: over 150 Homesteads
Equinox Pinion: Jack....you are ruining the small estates!
Driftwood Miles: dumped and selling at less than 117 USD
Ciaran Laval: Are they selling them outright Driftwood?
Equinox Pinion: yes ciaran
Equinox Pinion: 7000 linden tier per week
Driftwood Miles: a lot have been sold to a middle man who is selling them off
Jack Linden: Dennis, USS was a pretty simple discussion. We had wanted for some time to work towards some community involvement, and USS were an obv ious candidate because they were well established, they had a strong theme and it fitted well with us wanting to build an area of ocean
Ann Otoole: oh? considering homesteads are way cheaper and seem to run a lot better and have less problems maybe homesteads are the way to go lol
Driftwood Miles: at less that non-grandfathered tiering
Jack Linden: So I talked to them about it, and the conversation went from there
Equinox Pinion: look jack....i do understand the USS....i DO NOT understand the deal with dreamland!!!
Dennis Lagan: jack you lied about that. you always told us they contacted you. you did not answer my question
Dennis Lagan: why does your explenation not match theirs
Jack Linden: A lot of the way in which Blake Sea is, came from their guidance.. it was a really good project
Driftwood Miles: Jack you told us all that TRUST was very important and that you (LL) needed to work on it and that you WILL. It is a sad day
Driftwood Miles: for me
Equinox Pinion: so much to building trust :(
Equinox Pinion: i am very very disappointed
Jack Linden: hang on catching up on chat
Equinox Pinion: what do you think will happend if the other estates get to know what you did??
Alexxa Despres: and of course they will Equi
Alexxa Despres: that should make some interesting discussions!!! LOL
Driftwood Miles: Thats why it was done in the shadows
Ciaran Laval: This isn't going to end well
Driftwood Miles: nope
Equinox Pinion: we cannot expand for 3 months now...and you give dreamland old tier homesteads!!
Equinox Pinion: geeez..cannot recover from it lol
Ann Otoole: the surge of discontent lasts about 48 hours and continues to decrease on almost every PR issue associated with SL now. Not much reason for LL to care since there is never any contraction in revenue.
Jack Linden: Equinox, as i said, we have not given people grandfathered homesteads. That offer ended.
Dennis Lagan: this USS thing shows that we can't trust you at all jack. you say that they contacted you, to avoid it beeing favorims, they say the opposite, with detailed descriptions. you should resign jack. now!
Equinox Pinion: yes sure jack
Equinox Pinion: you made a "project" so people can get grandfathered homesteads...sorry not people...DREAMLAND
Dytska Vieria: Discount for quantity, that's what it looks like.
Jack Linden: Dennis, I have no idea when I said that, and if i did then I'd happily clarify. There were several meetings early on with USS and as I have said many times, we had been actively looking for some time for a community to partner with
Driftwood Miles: Thats not a bad thing Dytska and noone really would counter it.....but it must be in the public domain and available for EVERYONE
Dennis Lagan: it doesn't need to be necessary grandfathering jack. ok, the grandfathering project is finished... so what? how about new sims with a 30 dollar reduction on tier and no buy price? a different project, but by coincidence exact the same results as the grandfathered ones
Ciaran Laval: Discount for quantity is a standard business practice
Dytska Vieria: Agreed, Driftwood, but businesses usually do not disclose their discounts for one client to another.
Equinox Pinion: Dytska...sooner or later they will announce the homesteads will be 95 usd...as they cannot sell them for 125 usd..but by than the grid will be filled with dreamland sims
Driftwood Miles: Jack, the whole issue is about "deals in the shadows" Does LL think it really fosters Trust and good relations with the inworld population?
Equinox Pinion: and they will get so big that for the next beta...they will be choosen again :P
Qie Niangao: heh... well, they certainly won't sell at 125 if they're available elsewhere at 95
Dennis Lagan: jack, i willcheck my chat logs from this meetings by next week. unbeleivable that you try to get away with it
Driftwood Miles: I remember you asking once Jack when someone mentioned an FIC ...you said... "You don't really believe that do you?"
Jack Linden: We always have this balance to strike between needing to be a business and have business relationships with big customers, whilst also recognising that we have a commitment to the community to be as transparent as we can. That's a very tough line to walk. We don't always get it right, I think we'd be the first to say that actually. But we do try. Ultimately of course these programs will be public, and enjoyed by everyone. As they should be. But we have to get to that point of launching them first
Jack Linden: Talking to your largest customers is not FIC Driftwood. We talk to lots of groups, in lots of ways. We talk to developers, 3rd party vendors and solution providers and educators.. all sometimes in non-public ways.
Equinox Pinion: big customers? there are just 5 of them....hundreds are owed by smaller ones...you forget thats where you get the most money from!!!
Qie Niangao: Of course this means that only a fool pays list price for Estate services. Either negotiate a deal, or find somebody who "can get if for you wholesale"
Jack Linden: Equinox, you keep talking about the top 5. As i said, we're talking to a larger group than that.. and will continue to push on so that all estates have programs that benefit them directly
Drongle McMahon: Driftwood ... think of the big estates as big resellers, not customers, and it becomes clearer.
Ciaran Laval: Indeed Qie
Equinox Pinion: so why did only dreamland put so many on the grid
Driftwood Miles: Drongle it is perfectly clear to me thanks. But when you deal with ANY company of worth they tell you what is available if you buy ten or 50 it is clear it is transparent.
Equinox Pinion: agree driftwood
Driftwood Miles: There is no transparency here
Dytska Vieria: Jack, was this a Marketing Decision as opposed to an Operations Decision and did you have any input?
Dennis Lagan: i want it now jack, not in future. just like the others. every normal person knows that the operations dreamland is doing last couple of weeks is abnormal, and can only be done by favoritsm from linden lab
Jack Linden: If we could never launch anything new without talking to small groups, or trialling changes, or beta programs or focus groups.. we'd find it hard to release anything new.
Ciaran Laval: Cost differentials don't require beta testing.
Driftwood Miles: These are standard business practices
Equinox Pinion: how so?? you could just announce discounts for a certain amount of tier...why do you need a "beta" for it
Alexxa Despres: Is it the same people you give these opportunities to every time....at the exclusion of others?
Jack Linden: Again, Equinox.. you're assuming this is just a bulk discount. We're trying to build programs that have a range of features to help estates (all estates), and we need to get it right. it has to be able to scale, and we have to be able to support it properly
Kitn Mistral: well thank you for your time Jack, I'm going to go look into maybe retrieving some of my lost inventory.
Kitn Mistral: so farewell
Jack Linden: cheers Kitn
Driftwood Miles: so you picked some small estates to Beta test these programs?
Dennis Lagan: nearly all growed on the grid is caused by dreamland last couple of weeks. we are talking about hundreds of sims, this is not a small scale test. this is the Linden Mafia
Driftwood Miles: oh sorry you already said you didnt, my bad
Equinox Pinion: i know it is not a bulk discount jack...it is much more than that....you dont need to do a beta for that!!
Helena Lycia: I'm going to head off too. Thanks for you time
Helena Lycia: Bye bye everyone
Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!
Jack Linden: cheers Helena
Equinox Pinion: all the sims added the last month were dreamland homesteads!
Marianne McCann: time to scoot
Equinox Pinion: what kind of freaking beta is that
Jack Linden: I hope you guys are suitably amazed at the lack of typos btw. This laptop keyboard is killing me
Ciaran Laval: Bye Mari, still like the hat
Jack Linden: bye marianne
Driftwood Miles: it is impressive Jack, if not the content :P
Jack Linden: hehe
Equinox Pinion: my typos are because i am so upset :P
Ann Otoole: fyi: SLGridStatus Viewer 1.23.5 Mandatory Update Available http://bit.ly/41466a
Marianne McCann: Thanks, Ciaran. Got it on a Creators Stamp Rally a long while back
Driftwood Miles: When are you expecting all this to beome Officially public Jack?
Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
Jack Linden: Do you guys have anything else you'd like to discuss before the hour is up? I feel like we bludgeoned this one to death
Dennis Lagan: no, we don't negotiate with terrorists. fMake sure to have ethical practices, and we will talk again.
Ciaran Laval: Jack your politician speak hasn't reassured anyone :p
Alexxa Despres: It's a shame it wasn't put to death yet :((
Equinox Pinion: no thanks jack...i had enough....bye
Jack Linden: Driftwood, pretty soon. We want to give a roadmap re. a range of things into next year so that residents can see where we are heading
Timo Daehlie: what about the average mainland rates jack .. 3.5 last week ?
Alexxa Despres: Favoritism...by any other name ( beta testing) is still favoritism
Drongle McMahon: Jack. Why doesn't abandened land haveautoreturn set? Yesterday we winnessed a griefer attack with 917 chat spamming objects on a Linden parcel.
Jack Linden: ciaran, you always say that. I'm not sure how to type it differently but I amtrying to be as open and clear as i can
Drongle McMahon: *witnessed
Ciaran Laval: File a ticket under the LDPW category Drongle, Michael blogged about things like that this week
Ann Otoole: well jack i hope you can do better with your "roadmap" since the others that get announced just seemingly vanish after the first mighty blog post.
Dytska Vieria: Also, on that griefer attack, response time was kinda slow - almost 2 hours!
Jack Linden: Drongle, because often it gets abandoned by mistake.. and we'd be zapping stuff all the time if it automatically enabled autoreturn
Ann Otoole: i would like to see a monthly update on all "roadmaps"
Jack Linden: I hear you Ann.
Dennis Lagan: bye jack, much fun in bad with dreamland :)
Dennis Lagan: *bed
CharleneTrudeau Lorefield: take care, Jack
Jack Linden: take care!
Driftwood Miles: Jack, we all want a success for Second Life, for admittedly selfish reasons but also for the greater good of this awesome platform. We also understand that it is a very complex beast and we roll with the punches as best we can. But when things are blatantly in inequitable and there are issues of trust, it only damages the value of Second Life. This I find both sad and frustrating.
Drongle McMahon: Well...do it after a suitable delay then?
Constantine Kyomoon: see you next week, Jack.
Driftwood Miles: Thanks Jack and Bye
Ciaran Laval: He hasn't said he's leaving yet!
Jack Linden: Drongle. perhaps. It would definitely sort out some of the litter problems
Jack Linden: Okay well I guess I should drag myself to the next meeting
Drongle McMahon: It's very tedious asking for them to be cleared one at a time.
Ciaran Laval: Cheers Jack
Qie Niangao: Thanks for hosting, Jack.
Jack Linden: Thank you all for coming along; take care all!