User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Feb 13

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  • [11:09] Arawn Spitteler: hopes Which find Saijunai suitably flattering
  • [11:10] Which Linden: hey arawn
  • [11:11] Which Linden: what's going on?
  • [11:11] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Which
  • [11:11] Arawn Spitteler: Bamboo?
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Yeah, it's the style!
  • [11:11] Which Linden: morning indya
  • [11:12] Indya Etchegaray: morning which
  • [11:12] Arawn Spitteler: My look is more Western
  • [11:12] Which Linden: Very gnomic
  • [11:12] Which Linden: I don't really have a topic for today -- is there anything you're curious about or want to discuss?
  • [11:13] Arawn Spitteler: Well, What's meant by REST?
  • [11:13] Which Linden: Great question
  • [11:13] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Serana
  • [11:14] seranah Questi: hello,Mr. Arawn
  • [11:14] Arawn Spitteler: I've seen it bandied about at Zero's Hour, but nobody's ever explained the Acronym
  • [11:14] Which Linden: Didn't see my own chat, trying again: [1]
  • [11:15] Which Linden: A good place to start is here : [2]
  • [11:15] Arawn Spitteler: /hug ser
  • [11:15] Which Linden: Morning seranah!
  • [11:15] seranah gives: Arawn a big hug.
  • [11:15] Arawn Spitteler: Representatiuonal State Transfer, I don't see any E
  • [11:15] Which Linden: Basically, HTML and the browseable Web is REST
  • [11:16] Which Linden: Yeah, I think the E comes from REpresentational
  • [11:16] seranah Questi: ohhh hello Which....*ponders*
  • [11:16] Which Linden: The main advantage of REST is that we know that the Web is scalable and distributed
  • [11:17] Which Linden: So, in essence, REST is an attempt to get at what the properties of the Web are that make is so
  • [11:18] Which Linden: And apply those properties to distributed systems that you're building
  • [11:19] Which Linden: However, "Fielding points out in his thesis that the REST architecture was designed specifically for massive scale hypermedia distribution, and not as a one size fits all architectural style."
  • [11:20] Which Linden: So, basically, not all applications you wish to build really mesh perfectly with REST, so you end up either wedging the app in to fit, or violating REST principles
  • [11:21] Arawn Spitteler: One thing that makes the Internet scalable, is that it's designed for the eventuality, that an atomic bomb wipes out Linden Lab
  • [11:21] Which Linden: That's true, but that property has little to do with REST, imo
  • [11:22] Which Linden: I guess it does in the sense that you can put up Linden Lab's resources in a new location and link to them
  • [11:22] Which Linden: But really I'd count on packet routing to solve most of the problems
  • [11:22] Arawn Spitteler: It's a difference between Second Life and the Internet, that an overwhelm of San Francisco or Dallas Circuitry can or can not impair enjoyment in Paris
  • [11:22] Indya Etchegaray: is amazed that the internet was designed with Linden Labs in mind...Al Gore must own stock
  • [11:22] Which Linden: Hah
  • [11:23] Arawn Spitteler: Actually, I think it was DARPANet that was designed around worst case scenario, to keep laboratories and the military in connection.
  • [11:23] Which Linden: Yeah
  • [11:24] Arawn Spitteler: Linden Labs is just one of many laboratories that might be targetted by nuclear capable griefers.
  • [11:24] Which Linden: And since then, the companies that have built out the internet have used speed and money as the primary driver, so it's not as resilient as it might have been
  • [11:24] Arawn Spitteler: We have to be able to circumvent any phone line that goes through any location
  • [11:24] Indya Etchegaray: and to keep info spread out so that no one site had a usable collection
  • [11:25] Which Linden: i.e. sometimes the network troubles of one company can hose access to SL (but this is cause we're small relative to the internet)
  • [11:25] Arawn Spitteler: Companies still maintain backup data files, DASD
  • [11:25] Which Linden: what's DASD?
  • [11:25] Arawn Spitteler: Disaster and something Data
  • [11:26] Arawn Spitteler: If Linden Labs gets hit by another California Blackout, a second computer system should be able to keep the business end running.
  • [11:27] Arawn Spitteler: I was doing a survey, on the subject, and talked to one guy, who had a whirlwind take off the Cooling System
  • [11:27] Which Linden: I guess the question is, is it ok if part of the grid goes dark as long as some parts are still running?
  • [11:28] Which Linden: I.e. it seems unreasonable to expect that a region would survive a power outage
  • [11:28] Arawn Spitteler: Well, the real question is whether it's okay for your part of the system to go dark, and what are you willing to pay.
  • [11:28] Which Linden: Hm, yes, people would pay more for a guarantee that their region would stay up
  • [11:28] Arawn Spitteler: UPS Market
  • [11:28] Which Linden: (and it would be expensive to provide!)
  • [11:29] Indya Etchegaray: some companies have agreements to share their equipment in case one goes down
  • [11:29] Arawn Spitteler: Absolute Guarantee would involve switching to a mirror site
  • [11:29] Indya Etchegaray: say to run payroll...or billing
  • [11:29] Which Linden: A UPS isn't enough, since you have to protect the entire pipe to the outside Internet
  • [11:30] Which Linden: Yeah, you have to have a physically separate, exactly identical copy that you can switch to instantly
  • [11:30] Indya Etchegaray: UPS isnt feasible
  • [11:30] Arawn Spitteler: Chinese worked out Insurance, for River Traders
  • [11:31] Which Linden: Making your protocols work in the face of an instant switch-over seems to be rather the challenge
  • [11:31] seranah Questi: sorry, have to go
  • [11:31] Arawn Spitteler: Uninterupptible Power Supply? It's think it a matter of connecting your power supply to a battery, and using something else for an off switch
  • [11:31] Arawn Spitteler: CU Serana
  • [11:31] Which Linden: Yeah, Arawn, but it doesn't protect you against much
  • [11:32] Indya Etchegaray: youd need a generator
  • [11:32] Which Linden: And redundant internet connections
  • [11:32] Arawn Spitteler: You'd need double capacity, and share the backup, since a generator wouldn't provide the Cable Connection, or Cooling
  • [11:33] Which Linden: I think our colo's generators can power those things, acatually
  • [11:33] Which Linden: .... when they're working
  • [11:35] Which Linden: So, to bring it back to Second Life, I think it would be a huge engineering challenge to make a region resilient to power outages
  • [11:35] Arawn Spitteler: Probably a good idea, to set up your own generator, and share some excess, just to keep the power-lines functional, for emergency purposes.
  • [11:36] Arawn Spitteler: One Region, would not be possible to protect against all Griefing, which is why SL should be on a distributed platform.
  • [11:36] Which Linden: Yeah, we're working to make it more distributed!
  • [11:36] Which Linden: It's gonna happen!
  • [11:37] Arawn Spitteler: P2P Networked SL, is something AWG has been thinking of Protocols for, but they're a bit technical for me.
  • [11:37] Indya Etchegaray: and have part off shore...for legal purposes
  • [11:37] Which Linden: Ha ha ha
  • [11:37] Indya Etchegaray: <- so not kidding
  • [11:38] Which Linden: We did at one point consider moving our offices to a ship
  • [11:38] Arawn Spitteler: Germany shouldn't be alowed to wag the dog, and neither should Congress.
  • [11:38] Indya Etchegaray: even a smal island would work
  • [11:38] Indya Etchegaray: EXACTLY
  • [11:38] Which Linden: It was just cause it was cool
  • [11:38] Arawn Spitteler: There's a place near PitCairn, I'd like to develop
  • [11:39] Indya Etchegaray: ships are cool...once youre off shore...there is no law
  • [11:39] Indya Etchegaray: international waters
  • [11:39] Arawn Spitteler: I think you have to be flagged, or there's no law to protect you.
  • [11:39] Which Linden: Also, no internet in international waters
  • [11:40] Indya Etchegaray: yes there is:-)
  • [11:40] Which Linden: How? Satellite?
  • [11:40] Indya Etchegaray: not sure how they do it ...but definately able to surf & get email
  • [11:41] Which Linden: The lag from that would be so terrible
  • [11:41] Indya Etchegaray: at no charge
  • [11:41] Which Linden: no charge? Who does this?
  • [11:41] Indya Etchegaray: name a cruise line
  • [11:41] Indya Etchegaray: years ago they were in cahots w/ AOL
  • [11:41] Arawn Spitteler: Lindens want to know; Linden Liasons would like nicer homes to telecommute from
  • [11:42] Indya Etchegaray: i know many oldsters that are choosing to live on cruise ships
  • [11:42] Indya Etchegaray: cheaper than retirement villages
  • [11:42] Arawn Spitteler: Must be working retirements.
  • [11:42] Indya Etchegaray: which....i think this spells cruise for you
  • [11:42] Arawn Spitteler: They could drum up business, in SL
  • [11:43] Indya Etchegaray: to investigate....
  • [11:43] Which Linden: I can't imagine that they do anything other than satellite, or, at best, long-range radio to shore
  • [11:43] Indya Etchegaray: nor can i
  • [11:43] Indya Etchegaray: and i never launched an application that was resource intensive
  • [11:44] Arawn Spitteler: Satellites would take a while to get the beam bounced. An Off Shore LRL would probably be an exhausted Drill, with Land-Line connection
  • [11:44] Indya Etchegaray: also would depend how close to shore...if stationary, cableing isnt out of the question
  • [11:44] Which Linden: I heard somewhere that you could do the ham radio thing and bounce signal off the ionosphere
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Still be hella latent
  • [11:45] Indya Etchegaray: how far do our waters extend...1 mile?
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Not sure.....
  • [11:45] Arawn Spitteler: 200, at the request of Iceland
  • [11:45] Indya Etchegaray: miles?
  • [11:45] Arawn Spitteler: I think States get 3 miles
  • [11:46] Indya Etchegaray: ok...3 miles of cable is very doable
  • [11:46] Arawn Spitteler: They're thinking of going to a continental shelf standard
  • [11:46] Indya Etchegaray: so do it now & get grandfatheres
  • [11:46] Which Linden: Ha ha ha, classic
  • [11:47] Indya Etchegaray: i'll even volunteer to accompany you ...as the fauna rep
  • [11:47] Which Linden: Relly, though, it doesn't matter where your ship is, if you've got a connection back to the mainland, that's what matters
  • [11:47] Indya Etchegaray: not if server is on ship:-)
  • [11:48] Arawn Spitteler: Some Servers could be in the Phillipeans, and some in the Japans, some in Mexico, and some in Nazi Hamburg
  • [11:49] Indya Etchegaray: i'll go to mexico
  • [11:49] Arawn Spitteler: I figure the actual servers should be at ISP level, with LL handling the GRID Protocols, as DNS is done now.
  • [11:50] Arawn Spitteler: She's pretty well qualified, grab her resume
  • [11:50] Which Linden: Meanwhile, NASA's talking about putting virtual worlds on Mars..
  • [11:50] Indya Etchegaray: LL could secede from all countries
  • [11:51] Indya Etchegaray: tax ramifications are mind boggling
  • [11:51] Arawn Spitteler: Stick a Drill Rig, at the North Pole, raise up the Eye-Hand Symbol, and declare war on Russia?
  • [11:51] Which Linden: It worked for The Pirate Bay
  • [11:51] Indya Etchegaray: i heard that LL is courting NASA to put their simulators in world
  • [11:51] Which Linden:  ??
  • [11:52] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Nuchaa
  • [11:52] Nuchaa Thor: Hi there, where are you?
  • [11:52] Arawn Spitteler: I'm sitting on a couch,
  • [11:53] Arawn Spitteler: Simulators of what kind?
  • [11:53] Arawn Spitteler: As we go to Het-Grid, we'll be able to use a variety of Physics engines
  • [11:53] Nuchaa Thor: I cannot move my avator
  • [11:54] Arawn Spitteler: Use alt-cam, to view a couch, and sit. Or, check appearence
  • [11:54] Which Linden: oooh, stuck in the bamboo fronds
  • [11:54] Indya Etchegaray: We received the following note from Linden Lab's Research Dept about an exciting research project from NASA.
  • [11:54] Indya Etchegaray: i can forward you the email & link
  • [11:54] Which Linden: Sure, that'd be cool
  • [11:54] Which Linden: which at lindenlab
  • [11:55] Indya Etchegaray: email...whichlinden@?
  • [11:55] Indya Etchegaray: ok
  • [11:55] Which Linden: I bet the simulators are like space shuttle simulators or something
  • [11:56] Which Linden: ....something awesome
  • [11:56] Arawn Spitteler: What is Certified HTTP?
  • [11:57] Indya Etchegaray: its coming
  • [11:57] Indya Etchegaray: server is zoominternet
  • [11:57] Indya Etchegaray: easier than accessing avi's email
  • [11:58] Which Linden: Certified HTTP is a method of doing exactly-once messaging over HTTP
  • [11:58] Which Linden: Exactly-once messaging is important, if the message is, say, "Give this avatar 5 dollars"
  • [11:58] Indya Etchegaray: no...they are more business oriented
  • [11:58] Arawn Spitteler: So, the sender only sends once, but ahs to be certain it's received
  • [11:58] Indya Etchegaray: they already have space simulators
  • [11:59] Which Linden: The sender can send multiple times, and the server has to be able to ignore subsequent messages
  • [11:59] Arawn Spitteler: Can Regions vary Gravity?
  • [11:59] Which Linden: Not yet. :-)
  • [11:59] Indya Etchegaray: may i have God privilages?
  • [11:59] Which Linden: Not....yet?
  • [11:59] Which Linden: No
  • [11:59] Indya Etchegaray: lol
  • [11:59] Which Linden: Arawn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Certified_HTTP
  • [12:00] Indya Etchegaray: Goddess?
  • [12:00] Which Linden: The diagrams are helpful
  • [12:00] Arawn Spitteler: Requests for God Mode begin with your Resume
  • [12:00] Which Linden: Yeah, ha ha, you have to get hired
  • [12:00] Indya Etchegaray: *sigh
  • [12:00] Indya Etchegaray: such a commute...
  • [12:00] Arawn Spitteler: On the other hand, if you like, we can go to some no fly areas, and fly aroung a bit.
  • [12:01] Which Linden: Ha ha ha, well I've gotta go
  • [12:01] Arawn Spitteler: Linden Liasons don't get paid the money you're looking for, but might be better than you'll find in Pennsylvania
  • [12:01] Indya Etchegaray: let me know if you dont get it & i'll resend
  • [12:02] Which Linden: It's been a pleasure chatting with you all.
  • [12:02] Which Linden: K
  • [12:02] Which Linden: Laters!