User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Nov 6

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  • [11:01] Which Linden: Man, it's always night in Second Life when I have my OH
  • [11:02] Which Linden: Shoulda thought of that
  • [11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: heh. WHich reminds me I need to test a light sensitive switch for a friend
  • [11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: morning which
  • [11:05] Which Linden: Good morning, Sai
  • [11:05] Which Linden: How'd the OGP accept the group chat addition you wanted?
  • [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: so Infinity kinda liked my idea about how to shoehorn the current group IM into OGP
  • [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: so she's been reading up on the subject and making herself sick :-/
  • [11:06] Which Linden: Oh hah
  • [11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: well, she IS sick, but hopefully not related
  • [11:07] Which Linden: I think she has an infinite capacity for digesting technical details (if you'll pardon the pun)
  • [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: so the plan, as I understand it is to define a CAP for outgoing messages of the IIM variety (at least) and figure out a way for the IM server to deal with the Agent Domain as a sim
  • [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: and the AD wil relay the messages back to the client through an incoming cap
  • [11:08] Which Linden: Ok that's pretty straightforward
  • [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: and the client deals with them as normal IIM except via TCP instead of UDP
  • [11:09] Which Linden: Ugh normal IM is still UDP?
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: THEN we get fancy and start experimenting with new stuff on the back end
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: last I checked, yes
  • [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: but for the past 1+ years, everyone has been debating which new IM model is superior and gridnats still can't say hello to each toher
  • [11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: which kinda defeats the purpose of a social system
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Yeah, so whenever someone agrees on The One True Way, these IM caps will be obsolete
  • [11:11] Which Linden: But I guess that's OK, they're just caps
  • [11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but for the GPL client, no real work will be required to implement it since its the GUI stuff that is the hardest to change, I think
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: so you can keep all those chatterbox windows at least for now
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: and if you want to experiment with new IM protocols you do it on the AD side
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: and translate it into IIM-speak
  • [11:13] Which Linden: I'm not really sure I agree with you that it's completely trivial to convert IMs from one format to another
  • [11:13] Which Linden: For one thing, the notion of sessions does not translate well
  • [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure about that either, but compared to getting a new IM GUI working in the client?
  • [11:14] Which Linden: E.g. look at how Pidgin, an AIM-style client, handles IRC: awkwardly
  • [11:14] Which Linden: I guess different IM models are also GUI problems
  • [11:14] Which Linden: E.g. "hidden" group chats that you're actually participating in
  • [11:15] Which Linden: So yeah I see what you're saying
  • [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: from what I have seen there's almost as many rots stretching through the system for IM as there are for inventory management. SO those windows are special purpose
  • [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: roots* but rots works too
  • [11:16] Which Linden: Yeah, they're "core functionality"
  • [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, major refactoring needed for entire GUI depsite what somepeople say
  • [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: as far as I can tell, the base GUI lib is TK ported on top of OpenGL.
  • [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Then people added new functionality as needed, right on top of TK
  • [11:17] Which Linden: PWNED
  • [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: so no new base classes, just specialty classes
  • [11:18] Which Linden: I don't know much about Tk, but there's only a few ways to write GUI toolkits
  • [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: well, TK is very minimalist. Its the "native" toolkit for python
  • [11:19] Which Linden: "If you want to do anything interesting, do it yourself"
  • [11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: and while its pretty esy to use for basic stuff, it doesn't do much past the basics
  • [11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah
  • [11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: there are several extensons for TK, but LL never looked at them as far as I can tell. So its all bare metal to bare metal connections. Everything just boldted right on. No abstract folder class or whatever between inventory folders and a rgular window
  • [11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: they even bypass their own list panels for the folder class
  • [11:20] Which Linden: My understanding is that over the next year or so that's going to see a major refactoring.
  • [11:21] Which Linden: "That" being, you know, a very vague gesture at the toolkit
  • [11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: right.
  • [11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: When I first saw the roadmap for the GUI I was upset because the LAST thing on the list was a standalone test GUI window. Then I played with the GUI for a while and realized that yeah, that's the hardest thing for them to implement
  • [11:22] Which Linden:  :-)
  • [11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: which is kind of painful
  • [11:23] Which Linden: The thing about this toolkit is that it's supposed to make the integration between the chrome and the world more seamless
  • [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmmm not sure that's good
  • [11:23] Which Linden: Initially at least, and you see this in old screenshots, it was more like a HUD
  • [11:23] Which Linden: More immersive
  • [11:23] Which Linden: But now we're taking it in the direction of a "normal" application
  • [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: well, from a user PV that might be nice, BUT unless they implement the idget classes properly "more seamless" means "less flexible"
  • [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, yo umean the CURRENT system. OK< yeah I can see that
  • [11:24] Which Linden: Stuff like the pie menu, that's pretty well done for what it is, and doesn't break immersion when used
  • [11:25] Which Linden: Well it does a little bit
  • [11:25] Which Linden: But there are things that are possible with this system that are even more immersive
  • [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: right. THe real problem is, in my opnion, the structure of the classes is just bolted on without thought for how it fits with the rest of the system
  • [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: in some cases, there are 5 classes defined in a single file
  • [11:27] Which Linden: Oh, yeah, well our code in general is a mess
  • [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning :-)
  • [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: dont tell that to Infinity. She gets upset whenever I diss the LL code
  • [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: hey morgaine
  • [11:27] Which Linden: Hi Morgaine
  • [11:28] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Guys
  • [11:28] Which Linden: Morning Arawn
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: If code is a mess, it's a mess. Just means that needs improving or replacing, nothing else. Being attached to it is a bit silly, hehe.
  • [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. ego's less programming. Zero used to say that a lot.
  • [11:29] Which Linden: I guess what should be said is that the code is the code for it's time and place. It just fits right in there.
  • [11:29] Arawn Spitteler: Myt code is always a mess, and expect to improve, before getting any hobs in Development
  • [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: right, well, when I was suggesting the entire GUI needed refactoring, I got some real flames from certain Lindens
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Really? But they know it needs refactoring, surely. In fact, they've even said so, at the time that the comms-in-rendering-loop issue was discussed.
  • [11:30] Arawn Spitteler: Graphical User Interface being the Viewer? What's regaction?
  • [11:30] Arawn Spitteler: refaction?
  • [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: But, piecewise refactoring doesn't quite work when you have global variables that are so complex that you can't even figure out how to fake them
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Ouch
  • [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: refactoring. Redesigning in-place
  • [11:31] Morgaine Dinova: The big problem is that it's hard to refactor something you don't understand.
  • [11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: exactly
  • [11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: things are so complex that the login splash screen has its own event loop because what is used for the main viewer wouldn't be compatible becdause it expects login to have already started
  • [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Which, presumably there are dozens of LL devs working on the viewer, no? Which of those interface with the community about the viewer?
  • [11:33] Which Linden: Um
  • [11:33] Which Linden: Dunno!
  • [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear
  • [11:33] Which Linden: Not really my current cup of tea
  • [11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Benjamin LInden has office hours, but that's mostly for cosmetics and new functionality
  • [11:33] Arawn Spitteler: We need an index, so we can see things like, "Hey, there's not Vivox Office Hour."
  • [11:34] Which Linden: That office hours page is rather unweildy
  • [11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: doesn't fit with the Studio concept.
  • [11:34] Which Linden: We don't have studios anymore
  • [11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: oh?
  • [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, that's what Tess and others said too, studios are gone
  • [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: ah. Sad in asense
  • [11:35] Which Linden: Yep, labor is divided up more functionally
  • [11:35] Which Linden: Yeah, the end of an era
  • [11:35] Which Linden: However, the new organization is much easier to understand
  • [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
  • [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: I can imagine the strife that caused, ouch. But hopefully there's still flexibility, and people can move around.
  • [11:36] Which Linden: For example, I know that The Viewer Front is responsible for changes to the viewer, but I don't know who in that group is REsident-facing
  • [11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Just not every 10 minutes :PPPPPP
  • [11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Aha
  • [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Having official resident-facing people is very bad though ... they turning into pure PR people.
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: if that is their ONLY job...
  • [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Whereas if anyone can, then that doesn't happen, and you quickly realize who is just PR
  • [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
  • [11:38] Which Linden: Yeah that's not what I meant, I just meant, "who hangs out in semi-official capacity"
  • [11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I would guess that Benjamin and Grant are part of that team
  • [11:39] Which Linden: Presumably, though I don't actually know
  • [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: LL's quite visionary in that ... the vast majority of companies utterly forbid unappointed staff interacting with customers.
  • [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: or crazy, take your pick ;-)
  • [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha
  • [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, it must cause difficulties.
  • [11:41] Which Linden: Definitely
  • [11:41] Arawn Spitteler: Visionary, Staff need to find what customers are happy with, and a complaints department doesn't get a ballanced view.
  • [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL The Onion headline: Obama Win Causes Obsessive Supporters To Realize How Empty Their Lives Are
  • [11:42] Which Linden: It's a little schitzophrenic though because often you find that people take individual comments as company canon, and take Official Blog postings (which are intended to be canon) as the work of random individuals
  • [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: I can well imagine how hard it must be not to say something "ungenerous" (:-) to residents occasionally, in response to the very cutting feedback that we all give. Can't be easy to hold it back.
  • [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: Aye
  • [11:43] Which Linden: It's not hard for me -- you are very constructive and fair
  • [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Damn, we must try harder Sai ;-))))
  • [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, but Which, Morgaine considers you to be open and so on.
  • [11:44] Which Linden: You are less moderate with those you consider to be hiding something from you?
  • [11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: just recalls a few strong words exchanged at other's office hours
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Well I think a lot of people work this way --- one gives respect when respect is shown.
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Ha ha ha, true
  • [11:46] Morgaine Dinova: When a logical argument is dismissed without a logical reason ... yes, I get agitated too ;-)
  • [11:46] Which Linden: gives terrorist fist jab
  • [11:47] Arawn Spitteler's: wondering how to respond to that idiot Jahar, on SVC-2931: I don't know why he's trying to justify such foolishness, unless he's alt of the linden in the way.
  • [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Kind of easy to satisfy me, anyway. All I want is technical progress, rest I don't really care much about.
  • [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: What's he saying?
  • [11:48] Arawn Spitteler: SVC-2931 is where teleporters were developed based on Primatar Link Limits, after H4 came up, but were borked by a mis-fix.
  • [11:48] Which Linden: I'm pretty sure Lindens don't go around using alts to argue on PJIRA
  • [11:48] Arawn Spitteler: He's claiming that Link Distances should be limited, as they are for Objects, and that Sit Target Limits aren't link distances.
  • [11:49] Arawn Spitteler: This guy is just dumb enough, to think that other lindens don's ssee him coming, if he is one.
  • [11:49] Arawn Spitteler: A guy like that, would be hard to hide, so it's unlikely. Anyone hired by who he's married to?
  • [11:50] Which Linden: Don't be silly. :-)
  • [11:50] Arawn Spitteler: Ah, you don't say.
  • [11:51] Arawn Spitteler: I can see such link distances becoming troublesome on open grid, but that only needs documentation.
  • [11:52] Which Linden: I'd like to see more verbs than "Sit" for objects
  • [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: Well sai!!!!!!!
  • [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: said*
  • [11:52] Which Linden: It's really awkward that that's the only thing you can do
  • [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: It's just dreadful, yes
  • [11:52] Which Linden: Zero's way ahead of me on this matter though: "You're thinking in terms of discrete verbs?"
  • [11:52] Arawn Spitteler: Touch, Sit Pay and Other?
  • [11:53] Which Linden: I'd love to see a much richer system for interacting with objects
  • [11:54] Which Linden: I guess right now you could make something that uses the ability to drag things around with the Ctrl key, to make devices that use physical movement as a control
  • [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: Well our only actual operations are the CRUD ones, so everything else is just a CRUD event on a REST resource. And those resources can be anything, and the CRUD updates can trigger anything, so no, the verbs aren't discrete, despite only Sit being available today to users.
  • [11:54] Arawn Spitteler: If you have a seat, you can display choices on Control, rather than on Dialog
  • [11:55] Arawn Spitteler: What's CRUD?
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Ummmm
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Create, Read, Update, Delete?
  • [11:56] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. the main HTTP ops
  • [11:56] Arawn Spitteler: wonders, if there's a way to get the key of what we click on: How does Touch and Sit fit into that?
  • [11:57] Which Linden: The key meaning the uuid?
  • [11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Each SL object is an instance of a REST resource (I mean, it's intended to go that way), so any operations on resources such as Sit will be mapped onto one of those actions
  • [11:58] Which Linden: Hm yes, so if you want to have a continuously-varying input value you'd just send a stream of updates over HTTP
  • [11:58] Arawn Spitteler: Sit is a way of linking, so that would be an update? When we click on an object, there should be a way for a HUD to get the key
  • [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Arawn: it'll just be an object reference in OGP. That's not actually defined yet. We keep pokein Zero and Zha to get on with it, hehe :-)
  • [11:58] Arawn Spitteler: Have we a Drag-Copy Event?
  • [11:59] Arawn Spitteler: If my viewer can see an object, or a prim, the key should be reachable.
  • [11:59] Which Linden: I'm still not sure what you mean by the key
  • [11:59] Arawn Spitteler: UUID
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Arawn means a reference
  • [12:00] Which Linden: Ah ok
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: The thing by which you grab an object
  • [12:01] Morgaine Dinova: So it'll either be a full URI, or it'll be a shortcut to a URI agreed by communicating peers (prolly just an UUID as shortcut)
  • [12:01] Which Linden: Sit is, then, an update
  • [12:01] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [12:02] Which Linden: OK, shoot, I have to run, dropping off the kittens
  • [12:02] Morgaine Dinova: I don't actually know how the av is handled currently, but if Sit creates an orindary object link then I guess the av must look like an ordinary prim to the sim.
  • [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Don't shoot kittens ;-)
  • [12:03] Arawn Spitteler: Primatar, which builders should be able to see, but can't yet
  • [12:03] Which Linden: I'll catch you all later, sorry to be departing at this interesting juncture in the discussion
  • [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: laters Which
  • [12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Cya later Which, take care :-)
  • [12:04] Which Linden: You too :-)