User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 March 11

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  • [11:02] Which Linden: hi!
  • [11:02] Enkidu Linden: heyyyy
  • [11:02] Poppy Linden: hi there
  • [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
  • [11:02] Which Linden: is it petty of me to be cheesed off that the telehub in beaumont is totally far away from here?
  • [11:02] Poppy Linden: hi which
  • [11:02] Which Linden: so hey there I have a question for you all
  • [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: I hate regions that override teleport.
  • [11:03] Which Linden: what open source projects have amazing uis?
  • [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: vi
  • [11:03] Morgaine Dinova:  :P
  • [11:03] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [11:03] Which Linden: I meant "usable", not "amazingly bad" :P
  • [11:03] Poppy Linden: adium
  • [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Good question though
  • [11:04] Which Linden: checks out adium
  • [11:04] Poppy Linden: growl
  • [11:04] Which Linden: don't limit yourself to downloadable applications; one I thought of was wordpress
  • [11:04] Latif Khalifa: i kind of like chrome minimalistic style
  • [11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Most interesting UI I know for a FOSS app is Ardour -- [1]
  • [11:05] Which Linden: oh neat, audio stuff
  • [11:05] Latif Khalifa: oh there are many amazing world-changing concepts if you include the we apps
  • [11:05] Poppy Linden: ardour is definitely interesting, i still haven't figured it out.
  • [11:05] Latif Khalifa: s/we/the
  • [11:05] Which Linden: web apps are not often open source though
  • [11:05] Latif Khalifa: mediawiki?
  • [11:05] Poppy Linden: markdown
  • [11:06] Which Linden: good one, though I personlaly am not a fan of their UI
  • [11:06] Which Linden: (of mediawiki)
  • [11:06] Which Linden: markdown? That's like a library
  • [11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Urgh. Web apps barely qualify as "UI" in my book. While the web is amazing, the web browser takes "UI" to a new low.
  • [11:06] Which Linden: I guess the UI of markdown is the text your write
  • [11:06] Poppy Linden: yup
  • [11:07] Which Linden: I would nominate inkscape
  • [11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, yeah, I agree, Inkscape is not bad at all UI-wise.
  • [11:07] Which Linden: but am not familiar enough with Illustrator to know whether inkscape is better or just a clone or worse and different
  • [11:08] Which Linden: I like it a lot; I'm much more productive than I was with AI, but I also stopped using AI with version 7
  • [11:08] Poppy Linden: inkscape is quite different
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: GIMP's UI has the same problem of SL viewer's UI. They were both created by putting UI elements into a liquidizer.
  • [11:08] Enkidu Linden: oh cool, i was just thinking i needed an svg editor
  • [11:09] Latif Khalifa: lol gimp, which was not asking about anti-exemples :P
  • [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [11:09] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Argh, sorry was distracted by clients. X_x If you want a somewhat less aggrivating web-based UI toolkit, I like GWT. You dun have to futz with as much evil JS that way. :3
  • [11:10] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I never relized this untill now. But the SL UI come very close to the GIMP UI as far as bad UI goes.
  • [11:10] Which Linden: ouch
  • [11:10] Latif Khalifa: not even close lol
  • [11:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: Enkidu, you frighten me D:
  • [11:10] Which Linden: is that viewer 2 or 1?
  • [11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Which: since 2 is much worse than 1 on UI, don't even ask :-(
  • [11:10] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Flip a coin.
  • [11:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: I have to agree with Morgaine, heh.
  • [11:10] Enkidu Linden: aw really?
  • [11:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: IT's a hassle to do group notices with attachments, for example.
  • [11:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: You have to open a separate inventory window any time you want to do that.
  • [11:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: Sicne inventory and group tabs are stuck together on the sidebar, and you can only use one at a time.
  • [11:11] Latif Khalifa: some bits of the SL ui are very difficult yes, but it's not bad overall
  • [11:11] Which Linden: I think everyone knew it'd be worse for power users, which all of you are
  • [11:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: Editing asset permissions in inventory has the same kind of problem.
  • [11:11] Latif Khalifa: (talking about 1)
  • [11:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't even think that works actually..
  • [11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Enki: I like exploring new UIs, and would still be on it today if I didn't have to abandon it owing to low FPS. I go to live music events a lot, and it's not viable.
  • [11:12] Mojito Sorbet: WHich means it will be bad for anyone who sticks out SL for more than a few months. Or does anyting more than a few meetings.
  • [11:12] Which Linden: More examples of good open source UIs?
  • [11:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: Mojito: my concern exactly.
  • [11:12] Latif Khalifa: Which, for me the main problem with 2.0 UI is not that is not as power user friendly, it's that its too in your face obscuring the wonderful world of SL
  • [11:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: People who stick with SL will be wanting the features that experienced users need.
  • [11:12] Mojito Sorbet: But if the strategic direction is just toward people who only DO use it just for a few meetings...
  • [11:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: Our aim is for new users to -Become- experienced users.
  • [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Omnegraffle is a good vector editor. exports svg
  • [11:13] Mojito Sorbet: That is clearly NOT Linden's aim
  • [11:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: 2.0 just doesn't have that flexibility.
  • [11:13] Morgaine Dinova: I think the aims got confused.
  • [11:13] Latif Khalifa: for example local chat was much more user-friendly in 1.23, and i really didn't see any usability problems with it
  • [11:13] Ceawlin Steamweaver: My only real complaints about v2 are (1) atrocious framerate, compared to the emerald build I was using before, and (2) the non-tearoffable-stuff in the sidebar, and the fact that floaters stay on top of the sidebar when it pops out. :3
  • [11:14] Which Linden: Sai: yeah omnigraffle is the shit. closed-source though
  • [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: Locla chat is not somehitng the new corporate customers will use.
  • [11:14] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Ceawlin, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks has the sidebar fixes. Including going over floaters.
  • [11:15] Which Linden: agh sorry didn't mean to derail this into a referendum on viewer 2
  • [11:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which: frankly, the fact that many lindens have seemingly sloughed off experienced user negative feedback as "We knew it would be a hard transition" irks me a lot.
  • [11:15] Ceawlin Steamweaver:  :P
  • [11:15] Latif Khalifa: but the semi-transperent overlay for localchat is soo much nicer for virtial world than the ugly rectangular things that pop up now
  • [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: Sebastian++
  • [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Example of confused aims: claiming "more obvious to beginner", yet removing the two Map buttons and placing them in a menu instead. Doh! </slaphead>
  • [11:15] Ceawlin Steamweaver: So we are talking about UIs in general?
  • [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: and why can't the map button be on the bottom button bar if you want?
  • [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: As Sai says.
  • [11:16] Quarterback Orcenhall: hi all
  • [11:16] Which Linden: yeah.....I think poppy's suggestion of markdown was clever and out-of-the-box
  • [11:16] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, make it customizaable. Like Microsoft Office. Or OpenOffice
  • [11:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Good UIs are flexible, and can grown with the user.
  • [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: or.. ZBrush
  • [11:16] Latif Khalifa: map button would be nicely placed next to home button on the address bar
  • [11:16] Which Linden: Zbrush is open source?
  • [11:16] Latif Khalifa: no
  • [11:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: If you make enough configurable, and easy enough to configure, people will like it, because it can become what they need.
  • [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: nyah, but the UI rocks
  • [11:16] Poppy Linden: I hate to admit it, but i think jedit is good.
  • [11:17] Poppy Linden: in parts
  • [11:17] Which Linden: Ha ha ha
  • [11:17] Which Linden: Oh -- Eclipse
  • [11:17] Poppy Linden: no
  • [11:17] Latif Khalifa: uh oh
  • [11:17] Poppy Linden: that is not good design
  • [11:17] Poppy Linden: it's passable
  • [11:17] george Fairywren: hello my name is george and i am new in sl
  • [11:17] Latif Khalifa: eclipse is emacs of 21st century :P
  • [11:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hi George :)
  • [11:17] Poppy Linden: but that is def an example of too many cooks in the kitchen / unfocused mayhem
  • [11:17] Latif Khalifa: hey george
  • [11:18] Mojito Sorbet: I would not say Eclipse had a friendly UI
  • [11:18] Ceawlin Steamweaver: In general, I think that chasing a "user-friendly UI" is kind of like a mirage. What is user friendly to one set is not to another. The key to making a good UI, imo, is to make the UI configurable enough for the power user to be able to fiddle it until they are makying the minimum number of keystrokes/clicks possible, while keeping the default layout not overwhelming to new users.
  • [11:18] george Fairywren: how are you all
  • [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: hey goearge, this is an ultra-geek discussion grouip. You're welcome to join in,
  • [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: The only good good UI is one in which you can place whatever you want wherever you want. You make that highly flexible system easy for beginners through PRESETs. The "Beginner" preset would show only those things that won't confuse, and you supply a range of others for Builder, Social, etc. And you let experts save their own named Presets, any number of them for different purposes.
  • [11:18] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Eclipse has a great UI if you are a hacker. It probably kinda sucks if you are a 2st year CS student, though.
  • [11:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: My point exactly Ceawlin :
  • [11:18] Sebastean Steamweaver:  :)
  • [11:18] Ceawlin Steamweaver: *1st
  • [11:18] Poppy Linden: people use it because it's extensible and does 90% of their work for them
  • [11:18] Which Linden: Mojito: me neither, but when it came out it was head and shoulders above every other IDE
  • [11:19] george Fairywren: thank you what are we deisscusing
  • [11:19] Which Linden: Hi george! These are my office hours
  • [11:19] Poppy Linden: Good open source UIs
  • [11:19] Which Linden: I asked about open source projects that have good user interfaces
  • [11:19] Mojito Sorbet: Oh yes, and I use Eclipse all the time. But NetBeans is cleaner
  • [11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: some universities use Eclipse to teach their beginning programming classes
  • [11:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which opened a can of worms - which I thought,, being a plant, he might actually enjoy, hehe.
  • [11:19] Latif Khalifa: Morgain, agreed, Photoshop is the best example of configurabe UI and presets for all sort of different uses. Would've been great if SL could be as flexible
  • [11:20] Mojito Sorbet: If you work in multiple labguages, Eclipse can be a pain, because you have to keep manually changing the "perspective"
  • [11:20] george Fairywren: i think open source is agood idea
  • [11:20] Poppy Linden: So the usability we're talking about is more design oriented and anecdotal feel. The great thing about usability is that it's testable; it's a science
  • [11:20] Latif Khalifa: it's also a myth :P
  • [11:20] Mojito Sorbet: Make sure you select an appropriate test group though
  • [11:20] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I don't mind Eclipse being kind of a mess. I can do almost everything I want to do with 2 clicks or less. Not too familliar with netbeans though, but if it's clean and everything is hidden away in safe places, it's probably more clicks/keys to git 'er done. :3
  • [11:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Appropriate, and large enough.
  • [11:20] Which Linden: The best UI is no UI at all
  • [11:20] Latif Khalifa: my professor used to say "the only intutive iterface is a nipple, everthing else is learned" :P
  • [11:21] Enkidu Linden: ha
  • [11:21] Which Linden: I'm pretty sure that UI is only a short image search away
  • [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: I remember reading studies on UI design decades ago. It turns out thyere are two diamettrically opposed ways people look at the world, and learn things. I succueessful UI must cater to BOTH
  • [11:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: People need the ability to delve into the user interface and change it. Those who aren't interested in changing it, won't have to. But those that need to, can.
  • [11:22] george Fairywren: i think its a fact that programs evolve just like animal life does and open source ui are no exception
  • [11:22] Which Linden: Mojito: what were the two ways?
  • [11:22] Morgaine Dinova: I think americans might have a problem with all UIs being nipples.
  • [11:22] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Too bad the viewer is not more modular. We could just have the whole UI be kind of a plugin, with the core viewer engine driving multiple totally different UIs, which the user could choose from. ;P
  • [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: Best I can recal...
  • [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: One was, having general rules in your head, and applyihng those to individual cases.
  • [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: The other was the opposite - learning by example, and mentally inferring the general principle
  • [11:22] Quarterback Orcenhall: lol nice look ceawlin
  • [11:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: George, feel free to have a seat :)
  • [11:22] Which Linden: Ah, interesting
  • [11:22] Which Linden: plenty of room on das couches
  • [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: There was a simple test you can take to see which way of thinkgin you are
  • [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: An interesting fact was that the results of that test cluster by profession
  • [11:23] Which Linden: I assume programmers are more in the "learning by example" category
  • [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: So physicists and mathemeticians think one way, and managers the other
  • [11:24] Which Linden: Hm actually now that I said that I am less sure
  • [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, I am not sure about that
  • [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: I wonder if programmers clump that way?
  • [11:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which - I think osme people are a little bit of both. It can depend on situation and application.
  • [11:24] Latif Khalifa: managers think?
  • [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: For example, if yo understand BNF< you can learn a language form that
  • [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: But if you ar enot trained in such concepts, you want examples.
  • [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Very few would since its completely alien to how we learn a language as we grow up
  • [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: gets a funny picture of programmers clumping
  • [11:24] Which Linden: Yes; my approach to documenting Eventlet has been to pour on the examples
  • [11:25] Which Linden: Since that's how I like to learn
  • [11:25] Mojito Sorbet: I am not sure I can find the references now. It was in the late 70's
  • [11:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: We're like blood!
  • [11:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: clumps to Morgaine
  • [11:25] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Going back to the eclipse example, I learned it by intuition when I first started using it. The stuff is where you expect with the context menus and stuff. Conversely, I spent like 5 minutes last night trying to find the about land window, before I noticed the little circle-i in the nav bar. >_> Lol. Maybe I am dumb though. <_<
  • [11:25] Morgaine Dinova: feels doughy
  • [11:25] Mojito Sorbet: A big mistake is to assume all your users think the same way you do
  • [11:25] Latha Serevi: I'd think most programmers are myers-briggs NT, like to have a symbolic theory, kind of people. Doesn't mean we read the instructions though.
  • [11:26] Mojito Sorbet: The Myers-briggs test is a good indicator for this sort of thing
  • [11:26] Which Linden: Ceawlin: I think that is an example of UI consistency (or lack)
  • [11:26] Ceawlin Steamweaver: is INTJ. :P
  • [11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Well in UIs, Mojito is 100% right. There is only one thing guaranteed about UI decisions, and that it that YOU ARE WRONG. :-)
  • [11:26] Latif Khalifa: most programmers i know like to learn by example
  • [11:26] Which Linden: That's actually kinda fun, Morgaine; UI design is more like science
  • [11:27] george Fairywren: programmers will do what programmers do despite if we want it or not
  • [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I like a bit of theory thrown in at spots too, Latif
  • [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Well, once you know a couple languages, you want to learn a new one quickly and you want to know, "what is different?"
  • [11:27] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Yea, what Morg said. So I think the key is to make it flexible enough, configurable enough, that the user can make it right for -them-, once they are off the training wheels.
  • [11:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Personally, I learn by experimentation most of the time. If something doesn't work, I try something else. Sometimes I'll ask, but generally I explore.
  • [11:27] Which Linden: The challenge is, I think, what would make your user want to even reach that point of needing customizability
  • [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: For example, some parts of the V2 UI can be hidden. Like that silly Favorites bar. First thing I did. But that is about the limit of what I can do.
  • [11:27] Which Linden: 90% of people won't
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Which: perhaps it's like science in virtual worlds --- they all have difference physics so different things are "true". It's certainly not like RL physics though --- just the opposite, nothing objective in UIs at all.
  • [11:28] Which Linden: So configurability is kind of a 10% thing
  • [11:28] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Probably off topic a little, but one of the things that annoys me to no end with -both- SL clients is the inability to tear floaters off into their own windows. Makes multihead setups virtually useless for SL development. ;P
  • [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: That's an issue with the rendering engine
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Which: 110% wrong :-)
  • [11:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, people wanting to get to that point has nothing to do with the UI, other than how much the UI obstructs them. What makes people what to stay, is what they can DO here. What they can enjoy.
  • [11:28] Which Linden: I think that UI design can have some objectivity. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Which: exactly. It's not possible
  • [11:28] Mojito Sorbet: I use a gaim with windows within a 3D view, and IT can do tear-offs. Dont see why SL can not
  • [11:28] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Not a setup that mom and pop are probably using, but I think most of the hackers you run across are probably using at least two heads. :3
  • [11:29] Which Linden: Sebastean: agreed about SL, but we were talking about user interfaces in general
  • [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: everything is rendered into the game view, which is a single rectangle
  • [11:29] Poppy Linden: It's definitely a science that has researchers
  • [11:29] Poppy Linden: and experiments
  • [11:29] Latha Serevi: Hence the pie menus. :-o
  • [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: it's a pseudo-science that has researchers who are ALL WRONG
  • [11:29] george Fairywren: SL will evolve they way it wants to it willlike the grain in the stone in the acent of man
  • [11:29] Poppy Linden: That's a fun way to think about scienticif things, btu it's not useful
  • [11:30] Mojito Sorbet: For exaple, the RealXtend viewer "Naali" uses Qt for all its dialog windows. Those can be painted wither inside the main window, or outside, with no change in code.
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: the best they can do is identify UI features that are BAD for a majority of people. That's as far as it goes.
  • [11:30] Latif Khalifa: henri had a good summary about v2 ui on opensource-dev
  • [11:30] Which Linden: What about the fact that some people and companies seem to consistently do better at UI?
  • [11:30] Poppy Linden: just saying "science is wrong" does not actually make a science wrong; it has a hypothesis, you can try proving that is wrong instead.
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: UI design isn't science.
  • [11:30] Which Linden: That seems to point to the existence of objective principles
  • [11:30] Mojito Sorbet: I agree a bad UI will drive people away in the first 30 minutes. But a boring world will drive them away eventually as well.
  • [11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Jobs has good taste, visually. Gates doesn't. End of story
  • [11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: straw man. Don't go there please. I did not say science is wrong.
  • [11:31] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Define "better"? Apples supposedly rawk, but I suck at figuring out GUI environments and would much rather just have a screen full of xterms. :<
  • [11:31] Latif Khalifa: Which, that is up a discussion too ;)
  • [11:31] Which Linden: "better" := more people can use them without help
  • [11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: ceawin, so you like Mac OS X's terminal app?
  • [11:32] Mojito Sorbet: I would hate to see the Xterm version of CakeWalk SONAR, or any of the pro music apps
  • [11:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which: show people a beautiful world, and they will want to get help for the things they don't know.
  • [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Feynman would spin in his grave to hear UI design referred to as a "science". Jeez
  • [11:32] Latif Khalifa: i absolutelly hate mac os x. i think finder is the worst file management gui ivetned
  • [11:32] Poppy Linden: Morgaine: [2]
  • [11:32] ATechwolf Foxclaw: The key with Apple UI is that they made sure it works as expected. No lag is a big thing, I used an mp3 player once and it was sooooooo slow UI wise that it was fusterating scrolling though the playlist.
  • [11:32] Poppy Linden: it's a science
  • [11:32] Poppy Linden: sorry
  • [11:32] Which Linden: Sebastean: I totally agree, but that's a special case
  • [11:33] Which Linden: Sebastean: for example, if people want to make a drawing, the UI is pretty much the only distinguishing factor amongst software
  • [11:33] Poppy Linden: I'm not arguing that the researchers are all correct
  • [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: pseudo-scientists calling themselves scientists doth not a science make.
  • [11:33] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I guess for me it keeps coming back to the tired ol' "separate the business logic from the UI" spammery. Imo, the perfect UI would be one that we could replace without breaking the rest of the app. ;P
  • [11:34] Latif Khalifa: Which, Photosjhop won because it had the most customizable UI
  • [11:34] Mojito Sorbet: I will go along with saying that the testing of a UI can be done scientifically. Does it meet this or that goal. But if you go in with the wrong goals, you will optimize it for the wrong thing. You will have the wrong goals if you do not understand your customers and you
  • [11:34] Which Linden: Morgaine: would you categorize all research that involves humans as "not science"?
  • [11:34] Mojito Sorbet: do not listen to them
  • [11:34] Poppy Linden: Morgaine, that's an awfully big brush to paint an entire discipline in this day and age
  • [11:34] Which Linden: Ceawlin: I'd argue that the UI *is* the app :)
  • [11:35] Which Linden: There is no app that is not like that
  • [11:35] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, I disagree entirely
  • [11:35] Latif Khalifa: Poppy, fact is, if there was such an easy formula to good UI, we wouldn't be discussing it
  • [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, from the user's perspective, it certainly is
  • [11:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Maybe. I dunno. Different philosophies, I guess. ;P
  • [11:35] Mojito Sorbet: For a Virtual WOrld, the UI is *not* the app
  • [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, there IS a fomrula for specific elements just not for the entire "look and feel"
  • [11:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: To me, the app is what it does, not how the uesr tells the app how/when to do what it does.
  • [11:35] Poppy Linden: If researchers use the scientific method, publish their research with peer review, i'm not sure what else to call it
  • [11:35] Mojito Sorbet: Linden does not sell a UI. It sells a Virtual World experience. Please do not confuse the two
  • [11:35] Which Linden: Even for a command-line app the UI is "I pressed a few keys to compute an answer rather than figure it out by hand"
  • [11:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, I'm just saying that perhaps more focus should have gone to maintaining experienced users instead of just admitting it would be hard for them, so they could continue to create content/interact easily, etc. It should have been asked,"Ok, we have a starting point for newbies, how can we make this better for vets?"
  • [11:36] Which Linden: Mojito: mostly agreed; the content is the app
  • [11:36] Which Linden: Same with the web
  • [11:36] Poppy Linden: Latif, sadly there are no simple formulas for good UI still :\
  • [11:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or, "How can we make it so that vets can make it better for themselves?"
  • [11:36] Enkidu Linden: it's getting all plato v. aristotle up in this piece
  • [11:36] Mojito Sorbet: The Third Pary Viewer policy clearly impleis that V2 is THE Linden viewer, and anyone wanting a different experience will have to look to a third party viewer.
  • [11:37] Which Linden: ha ha ha
  • [11:37] Which Linden: (laughing at enki)
  • [11:37] Ceawlin Steamweaver: It's dangerous to look to webapps for like, how to design an app stuff. I think most webapps are just a thin UI thrown overtop of a database. SL is a great deal more complicated than that, imo. :3
  • [11:37] Mojito Sorbet: Whether for better disbaled access (which Linden has expressed ZERO interest in) or the power builder user
  • [11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: admires Fitts' Law as limited as it is...
  • [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: nope, physiological studies can be highly scientific. But studies based on preference are well into the "soft" area where validity as science is questionable. Don't mix up the measurement side of the scientific method with science as a whole. The theoretical side of such human studies is so threadbare that you cannot model it with any kind of mathematical strength, and so your hypotheses can only be weak, and so correlating observations with hypotheses is only weak too. That's why it's called "soft" science. The mathematical rigor is quite poor.
  • [11:37] Which Linden: Whatever man, I totally worked on a project that slightly increased access for the disabled
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Which speaks Like, Linden
  • [11:38] Which Linden: Morgaine: I think you're mixing up UIs that you like with UIs that require less training to use
  • [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Talking of accessibility, what happened to Viewer 2.0? Mouseover on media? EWWW!
  • [11:38] Which Linden: I agree that preference is subjective; performance is not
  • [11:38] Mojito Sorbet: The message I got fomr the VAI people was that the people they had evaluating V2 beofre it was released felt their feedback was ignored.
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: what happened to having streaming media on prims?
  • [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
  • [11:38] Latif Khalifa: hey Dahlia
  • [11:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hiya
  • [11:39] Ceawlin Steamweaver: toasts Dahlia. "Hai!"
  • [11:39] Latha Serevi: Youtube on a cube seems to work for everybody but you, Sai, sorry.
  • [11:39] Ceawlin Steamweaver: ( I am so donna wear out that pun... )
  • [11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: (subtle dig at LIndens who tell Saijanai that his experience is too rare to worry about, V2-wise)
  • [11:39] Ceawlin Steamweaver: *gonna
  • [11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Toasts are actually on topic --- the accessibility of the toasts is nil.
  • [11:39] Which Linden: LOL
  • [11:39] Mojito Sorbet: Sai, tell them about the JIRA form other Mac users
  • [11:39] Poppy Linden: Morgaine, it just sounds like we have a difference of opinion about "soft" science, which I doubt we'll come to agreement on here.
  • [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: That's not true Latha. There are 15 votes on that jira, and they appeared within a few days of hte release. I suspect I'm the only person having hte problem who still bothers to use V2
  • [11:40] Which Linden: Sai: that happened to me with windlight; got completely posterized images, the graphics team said "buh, doesn't happen on my machine"....eventually nvidia updated their drivers and it went away
  • [11:40] Latif Khalifa: I'd just like to hear the designer's arguments for replacing 1.23 localchat with 2.0 local chat. I see zilch improvement for experienced and new users alike. Did anyone every hear about any n00b asking how to use local chat and were unable to figure it out?
  • [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Poppy: you're probably right. Being the scientist type with first degree as a hard engineer, I don't have much time for sloppy sciences.
  • [11:41] Which Linden: puts "Hard Engineer" on his resume
  • [11:41] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
  • [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: it only happens on a handful of systems, but its annoying as heck. Even the embedded browser is "old school"
  • [11:41] Mojito Sorbet: Is that like a Civil Engineer?
  • [11:41] Mojito Sorbet: Only counts as engineering if steel I-beams are involved
  • [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: I carry a large spanner / wrench in OSgrid :-)
  • [11:42] Which Linden: Is Android completely open source?
  • [11:42] Which Linden: or is it partial?
  • [11:42] Latha Serevi: I think the prim media stuff is pretty fantastic. I like how I can interact with it. I don't know how to fix the accessibility stuff. What do accessible browsers look like anyhow?
  • [11:42] Latif Khalifa: some apps are not
  • [11:42] Latif Khalifa: google maps for example isn't
  • [11:42] Latif Khalifa: the os itself is opensource
  • [11:42] Dahlia Trimble: checks inventory... nope no Poppy bear *flutters wings at Poppy*
  • [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: The O/S is, and Dalvik is.
  • [11:43] Which Linden: Maybe that counts as an open source project with a good UI
  • [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: nods
  • [11:43] Which Linden: Ubuntu has decent UI
  • [11:43] Mojito Sorbet: GNOME, you mean
  • [11:44] Which Linden: Yeah but Ubunbtu tinkers with it a bit yeah?
  • [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: Just a little.
  • [11:44] Which Linden: Maybe they just theme it
  • [11:44] Which Linden: So OK GNOME
  • [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Well Linux as a whole has a totally configurable UI. But that's kind of cheating, or misusing the term "UI".
  • [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: I thikn so
  • [11:44] Which Linden: Yeah, probably Morgaine
  • [11:44] Which Linden: Too diffuse of a project
  • [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: The discussion seems to be that Open Source is a bad way to do UI design. That is a Red Herring.
  • [11:45] Which Linden: No that's not it at all
  • [11:45] Mojito Sorbet: There are plenty of closed source bad UIs
  • [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: well, how many OPenSource programmers are UI gurus?
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: I didn't sense that that was the topic, Mojito.
  • [11:45] Mojito Sorbet: Which kept asking for examples of good OS UIs
  • [11:45] Which Linden: There does seem to be a growth in open source designers
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Mojito: yeah, cause I think there are a lot out there that we don't know about
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: There is no such thing as an UI guru. There are only opinionated people who claim they are.
  • [11:46] Mojito Sorbet: Look at the contributed theme library for Gnome. SOme of those people must be color blind
  • [11:46] Morgaine Dinova: And they're all wrong. At best they can tell you what to avoid, as clearly bad.
  • [11:46] Which Linden: Heh I felt the same about the wordpress themes
  • [11:46] Which Linden: 90% fuggo
  • [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: I was about to say that whoever coloured the viewer IM tabs is obviously color blind.
  • [11:47] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I still think "Good" is totally subjective, depending on the type of user sitting at the keys. :3 I still say aim for flexibility rather than specifics, enabling the community to make their own tweaks, and then when the community finds what it likes, you can roll it back into the core project. :3
  • [11:47] Mojito Sorbet: There is a program on the HGTV channel, where this interior designer keeps picking deeply saturated colors for walls! What an idot.
  • [11:47] Which Linden: ha ha I saw that one
  • [11:47] Which Linden: ColorSplash, right?
  • [11:47] Mojito Sorbet: yes
  • [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, it's totally subjective. Even cultural.
  • [11:47] Which Linden: That's his schtick
  • [11:47] Mojito Sorbet: And the compliuant customers never push back
  • [11:48] Which Linden: My GF actually submitted our place to get designed by his show
  • [11:48] Mojito Sorbet: Deep Purple walls? What are you thinking? Get out of our house!
  • [11:48] Which Linden: ph33ars
  • [11:48] Ceawlin Steamweaver: So it becomes, "Flexible == good", not "This particular layout == good" :3
  • [11:48] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [11:48] Latif Khalifa: keeps his fingers crossed which's girlfriend doesn't get selected xD
  • [11:48] Mojito Sorbet: Just watch that OTHER HGTV show about Why My House Wont Sell. To begin with, you have deep purple walls in the libing room...
  • [11:49] Which Linden: I'd love to see a flexible UI that is also good for beginners; it seems that designers optimize for one or the other but not both
  • [11:49] Morgaine Dinova: I think UI design requires extreme meekness. "I know I am wrong, so I will give you the infrastructure to correct my initial suggestions."
  • [11:49] Which Linden: maybe Firefox is such an example
  • [11:49] Which Linden: its ui is pretty damn customizable
  • [11:49] Which Linden: But I pretty much never do
  • [11:49] Mojito Sorbet: NetBeans is customizable. You can drag icons all over the place
  • [11:50] Latif Khalifa: i do use tons of firefox extensions for fixing the gui
  • [11:50] Latif Khalifa: Download Statusbar for the win
  • [11:50] Mojito Sorbet: I usually just eliminate icons until iot all fits on one row, to save space.
  • [11:50] Which Linden: oh yeah -- you can even get the address bar into the title bar
  • [11:50] Which Linden: pain in the butt though
  • [11:51] Latif Khalifa: viewer 2 needs an option to put address bar in the menu bar :)
  • [11:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zbrush is the uber-custimizable one --- move ANYTHING from a panel to a frame. I actually though Viewer2.0 was trying to do that initially, but nothing was moveable, and the sidebar was a mammoth fixed monolith, urgh.
  • [11:51] Mojito Sorbet: Generally though, the V2 UI clutters up my view of the Virtual WOrld a lot more than V1 did. And the World is the Experience.
  • [11:51] Which Linden: Latif: I think viewer 2 would have to start rendering the title bar itself
  • [11:51] Latif Khalifa: saves world view, and a lot of people use highres these days
  • [11:51] Latif Khalifa: Which, not the title bar, menu bar
  • [11:51] Which Linden: oh
  • [11:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't really mind the address bar , but having the parcel limitations off by default seems like a silly thing to do. (just came back from afk). A new user would have NO idea why he couldn't fly for example ,or why his scripted obejct wasn't working, even if he knew where to look for parcel info.
  • [11:51] Which Linden: yeah, that'd be cool
  • [11:51] Mojito Sorbet: I just turn off the address bar. I NEVER use it
  • [11:52] Latif Khalifa: Which, if you are running high-res you waste precious horisontal space on address bar, option to put it in the empty space on the menu bar would be a big win
  • [11:52] Mojito Sorbet: Let me drag it where-ever I like.
  • [11:53] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, you cannot tell where you are without the address bar
  • [11:53] Which Linden: alright folks: I have sort of an announcement here. This is my second-to-last office hours, I'm leaving the Lab at the end of next week
  • [11:53] Mojito Sorbet: I know where I am - I teleported there.
  • [11:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: . . .
  • [11:53] Which Linden: no good way to drop that in there
  • [11:53] Latif Khalifa: aww :(
  • [11:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which :(
  • [11:53] Enkidu Linden: that's my least favorite thing you've ever said
  • [11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Address bar does nothing useful except for the Home button. Address bar completely misconceives how we hop around the world --- we NEVER backtrack our path with '<<' from region to region. It provides an irrational region access model.
  • [11:53] Mojito Sorbet: So everything we have been telling you is going nowhere.. :(
  • [11:54] Latif Khalifa: Which, is LL intent of getting all competent people out?
  • [11:54] Which Linden: I've really enjoyed working with you all and my office hours every week
  • [11:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Even though we complain a lot? Heh.
  • [11:54] Which Linden: Mojito: well it's going on the wiki
  • [11:54] Mojito Sorbet: Doesnt count if the LL UI people do not hear it
  • [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: Which: enjoyment doesn't translate into having any effect though. Nothing residents say ever makes you depart from the path you plan. Ever.
  • [11:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Pathfinder, now Which?
  • [11:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Rob linden
  • [11:55] Latif Khalifa: all the good one :(
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Robin too
  • [11:55] Mojito Sorbet: Can you tell us anything about a big recent reorg in the Lab?
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Joel
  • [11:55] Latif Khalifa: and we get Pink in replacement lol
  • [11:55] Which Linden: This is surprisingly hard; this is the saddest announcement I've had to make
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Prospero
  • [11:55] Which Linden: It was way easier to just tell Enkidu the other day
  • [11:55] Enkidu Linden: dag
  • [11:55] Which Linden: Mojito: no major reorg that I'm aware of, that could just mean I'm unobservant though
  • [11:56] Latif Khalifa: Which, very sad to hear it :(
  • [11:56] Mojito Sorbet: Thats what Pathfinder told us
  • [11:56] Mojito Sorbet: Maybe it only affected marketing
  • [11:56] Morgaine Dinova: None of the bad Lindens ever leave, just the ones that everyone likes.
  • [11:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Pathfinder told us his position no longer existed due to reoganization.
  • [11:56] Which Linden: I was all "sup dude, could you order some notgonnaworkhereanymore soup from that pho place?"
  • [11:56] Which Linden: Oh, yeah, I don't know what's up with Path, that was a surprise to me too
  • [11:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, we hope you have a good place to go after LL?
  • [11:57] Which Linden: Sebastean: I'm intending to join the game industry, but no specific place yet
  • [11:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: gives Which a large pack of plant fertilizer for the road.
  • [11:57] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Oh cool. :3
  • [11:57] Ceawlin Steamweaver: If you start building web-based games in java, give me a call. :P Hahaha
  • [11:57] Latif Khalifa: which must've badmouthed M's plan :P
  • [11:57] Which Linden: That's right, someday you'll be shooting some dude in the face and I'll be all "I made the brains splatter"
  • [11:58] Saijanai Kuhn: will you be showing in SL regularly or will we be forced to "stalk" you?
  • [11:58] Mojito Sorbet: Beginning a new tradition where, in exchange for bears, we give Lindens bags of cow poop
  • [11:58] Which Linden: I don't know yet, Sai.
  • [11:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: I haven't gotten to come to your office hours often Which, but I'm really sorry to hear you're leaving. I've enjoyed your office hours.
  • [11:58] Which Linden: I'll fire up an alt I guess just in case
  • [11:58] Aimee Linden: will be looking out for Bambo based weapons
  • [11:58] Which Linden: I've enojyed them too Sebastean; super-interesting discussion always transpires
  • [11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Which: I'm going to miss your weekly sessions --- they've often hooked more deeply into technology than other OHs :-(
  • [11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Aimee, I didn't see you there
  • [11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, who will be taking your place, if you know?
  • [11:59] Which Linden: My place?
  • [11:59] Morgaine Dinova: waves to Aimee 'Stealth' Linden ;-)
  • [11:59] Aimee Linden: we've not employed Who yet
  • [11:59] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [11:59] Aimee Linden: I believe he's busy working on time travelly type things
  • [11:59] Latif Khalifa: they don't need techs, they'll hire another Pink clone lol
  • [12:00] Mojito Sorbet: Yeah, the code works. Just need marketing
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Neat. We need Pink to design the next generation of SL infrastructure.
  • [12:00] Latif Khalifa: LOL
  • [12:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, I figured they need someone to do the coding that you have been doing thusfar.
  • [12:01] Which Linden: The three fine Lindens here are certainly capable of carrying on the mission
  • [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: The next SL infrastructure will be supplied by Google, when they buy it out.
  • [12:01] Which Linden: Hah I've actually not been coding that much lately
  • [12:01] Which Linden: Except on Eventlet
  • [12:01] Which Linden: but even then not much
  • [12:01] Which Linden: kind of a Peter principle really
  • [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: So while all the UI people were slkaving away for 18 months on V2, the server side people did nothing much?
  • [12:01] Which Linden: I'm actually not that great of a coder truth be told
  • [12:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: blames Amiee, since it's all her fault.
  • [12:01] Poppy Linden: HA!
  • [12:02] Poppy Linden: my ass
  • [12:02] Saijanai Kuhn: That's a given
  • [12:02] Aimee Linden: yup
  • [12:02] Which Linden: I don't know about nothing much, this bitchin' martini shaker begs to disagree with that assessment
  • [12:02] Morgaine Dinova: That's actually what we hypothesized in jest in Groupies: Zero went into his "3-5 year sekrit project" huddle because Google bought you out and said "Please rm -rf all this non-scalable infrastructure."
  • [12:02] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [12:03] Which Linden: That woulda been cool, but, not to my konwledge
  • [12:03] Which Linden: MAybe they've been seeding us with spies
  • [12:03] Which Linden: Heh I guess they can just read our email
  • [12:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: NExt thing you know, we'll be hearing that Vektor is leaving :(
  • [12:04] Which Linden: Heh, I'll tell him that you think so well of him. :)
  • [12:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, for old time's sake, do you have a bamboo bear?
  • [12:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: I do think well of him. I love Vektor, heh.
  • [12:05] Which Linden: Sure, who wants a bear?
  • [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: is sorry to see Which go and wishes him the best in the next realm
  • [12:05] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I'd like a bamboo bear, even though I don't collect bears. Would be nice momento :-)
  • [12:05] Saijanai Kuhn: I do I do
  • [12:05] Which Linden: and after bears I should gtfo
  • [12:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: I would like one Which.
  • [12:05] Aimee Linden: me!
  • [12:05] Poppy Linden: ahh, it's late
  • [12:05] Latha Serevi: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:05] Poppy Linden: hell, give me one
  • [12:05] Enkidu Linden: where's my bear
  • [12:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: And I do hope that you have a lot of well-earned fun in your next job.
  • [12:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:05] Poppy Linden: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:05] Poppy Linden: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: BEAR time! YAY!
  • [12:06] Which Linden: doh missed
  • [12:06] Poppy Linden: i'll god-pwn it, make it 100m tall and have it devastate the mainland.
  • [12:06] Which Bear: (bonus): Hello Which Linden. Youre welcome ;o). Greetz from Which Linden
  • [12:06] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia, did you get Enkidu's yet?
  • [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [12:06] Aimee Linden: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: yep but I'll take another :D
  • [12:06] Enkidu Linden: i actually haven't made one yet
  • [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:06] Ceawlin Steamweaver: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Which :-)
  • [12:06] Enkidu Linden: if i get which's bear, i'll just give it out
  • [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: oh Im confused then
  • [12:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: Neither has Nyx :P You two can have a bear-making group.
  • [12:06] Latif Khalifa: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:06] Which Linden: everyone's getting one
  • [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: ty LD
  • [12:07] Which Linden: welcome to oprah
  • [12:07] Latif Khalifa: haha
  • [12:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you Which
  • [12:07] Latif Khalifa: thanks
  • [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: can I have an extra for a friend?
  • [12:07] Morgaine Dinova: No copy, Dahlia
  • [12:07] Saijanai Kuhn: bounces up and down impatiently
  • [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: ty :D
  • [12:07] Latif Khalifa: now these get extra valuable sice which is leaving ;)
  • [12:07] Poppy Linden: "everyone's getting a twitter! it's under your seat!"
  • [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:07] Which Linden: bahaha, the economy of scarcity!
  • [12:07] ATechwolf Foxclaw: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:07] Latif Khalifa: hahaha
  • [12:08] Which Linden: don't worry, I'm sure we'll write a dupe exploit sooner or later
  • [12:08] Which Linden:  :)
  • [12:08] Which Linden: and with that, I'm gonna head out
  • [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [12:08] Latif Khalifa: we'll put Which Bear on e-bay :P they don't make them anymore xD
  • [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: giggles
  • [12:08] Which Linden: see you next week
  • [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: no bear for moi?
  • [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Take care Which, see you next week :-)
  • [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
  • [12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: And we'll have to check creators for copy-bot mimick scams.
  • [12:08] Latif Khalifa: see you Which, take care :)
  • [12:08] Latha Serevi: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care Which
  • [12:08] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Thanks Which!
  • [12:08] Latif Khalifa: see you all around!
  • [12:08] Which Linden: latha's in my way sai
  • [12:09] Saijanai Kuhn: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:09] Which Linden: heh take care
  • [12:09] LoLa Varriale: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [12:09] Saijanai Kuhn: no excuses