User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20080813

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Summary

New Huddle Schedule

  • Monday, 15:00 SLT
  • Wednesday, 13:30 SLT Office Hours
  • Friday, 09:00 SLT

Fixes Gone Out

Region URL Discussion

See transcript.

Beta Next Steps

  • Merging patch into OpenSim trunk
    • Most likely as a module, and needs to address
    • Fix conventional login.
    • Working in Grid Mode
    • Will start filing issues in OpenSim mantis to get traction.
  • Support for SLURL-like Region URLs
  • Support for specifying AD in viewer at login

Transcript

  • [13:26] Mirt Tenk: Hi Whump
  • [13:26] Audoa Giha: Hi Whump !!!
  • [13:26] Audoa Giha: do I get a bear? LOL
  • [13:27] Whump Linden: Hello
  • [13:27] Audoa Giha: Hi
  • [13:27] Mirt Tenk: wd you please give me the textures w/permissions here in SL?
  • [13:28] Mirt Tenk: oops, srry
  • [13:28] Audoa Giha: I thought big turn out
  • [13:29] Mirt Tenk: FYI, there are big login probs w/SL right now
  • [13:29] Whump Linden: yes, we're just coming back up
  • [13:29] Audoa Giha: Oh yes I read that
  • [13:29] Mirt Tenk: took me a while & I got bumped to same place as a lot of other unhappy avs
  • [13:29] Mirt Tenk: (so I left quickly)
  • [13:29] Whump Linden: so we'll hold off on starting a couple so that people can get back in
  • [13:29] Audoa Giha:  :) ran as fast as you could
  • [13:32] Mirt Tenk: Hi BlueWall!
  • [13:32] BlueWall Slade: Hello!
  • [13:32] Audoa Giha: Hi BlueWall!
  • [13:32] Whump Linden: Hi BlueWall
  • [13:33] BlueWall Slade: Hello Whump
  • [13:33] BlueWall Slade: Hi Audoa
  • [13:33] Audoa Giha:  :) thanks for all the help
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: Hey Opensource!
  • [13:34] Opensource Obscure: hi there : )
  • [13:34] BlueWall Slade: yw
  • [13:34] BlueWall Slade: Hello
  • [13:34] Mirt Tenk: hi Opensource
  • [13:34] Audoa Giha: hi Opensource!!
  • [13:34] Mirt Tenk: BlueWall is the unofficial helpdesk staff for Open Grid lol
  • [13:34] BlueWall Slade: hehe
  • [13:35] Whump Linden: I'm going to wait a couple minutes since we're recovering from db sadness.
  • [13:36] Mirt Tenk:  :~(
  • [13:36] Opensource Obscure: fine
  • [13:36] BlueWall Slade: i just put lua into my wireshark and the LL disector
  • [13:37] BlueWall Slade: should be able to look at UDP packets now
  • [13:38] Whump Linden: okay, let's get started, we can always post a transcript
  • [13:38] BlueWall Slade: ok
  • [13:39] Whump Linden: So thanks to Enus for holding office hours while I was out on vacation last week.
  • [13:39] Whump Linden: Agenda for today:
  • [13:39] Tao Takashi: Hi
  • [13:40] Mirt Tenk: hi Tao
  • [13:40] Whump Linden: 1. Status and Announcements
  • 2. OGPB Huddle Scheduling: do we need to meet every weekday?
  • 3. Region Domain URLs: in which a strawman document is presented for comment
  • 4. Discussion of next steps in OGP Beta Program
  • [13:40] BlueWall Slade: Hello
  • [13:40] Whump Linden: hi Tao
  • [13:41] Whump Linden: We had a lot of people successfully teleport and bring up regions in the past week. So congrats, and let me know so you can get your bears.
  • [13:41] Audoa Giha:  :)
  • [13:41] Mirt Tenk: I love the badge on the bear
  • [13:41] Whump Linden: If you've brought up a region, please consider adding it to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Public_Beta/Public_Regions
  • [13:42] Audoa Giha: Have done so and had visitors already :)
  • [13:42] Tao Takashi: it's great that visitors stay forever
  • [13:42] Tao Takashi: so it looks like it's more happening that on my normal SL sim ;-)
  • [13:42] Whump Linden: On the bug front, two Jira's have been marked as closed:
  • [13:42] Audoa Giha: no no ghosts
  • [13:42] Mirt Tenk: after three days . . .
  • [13:42] Whump Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8460
  • [13:43] Whump Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2752
  • [13:43] Whump Linden: So that's the "_EXTERNAL" tag and the "No Permission to Enter Region" bugs.
  • [13:43] Whump Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8498 may have been fixed, but I need to verify.
  • [13:44] Whump Linden: Does anyone else have any announcements before going on?
  • [13:45] Whump Linden: okay, item two
  • [13:45] Whump Linden: OGPB huddle scheduling
  • [13:46] Whump Linden: at the moment we're meeting five days a week, do we need to, or should we cut back?
  • [13:47] Whump Linden: also, should we change the meeting times, we're at the end of the working day for some people and the start for others
  • [13:47] Tao Takashi: personally I am ok with that time
  • [13:47] Whump Linden: and i'd need to look at a world clock to see everyone else
  • [13:47] Audoa Giha: yes end of day
  • [13:48] Xugu Madison: I can barely manage a meeting a week, so less I'm missing is always good :)
  • [13:48] Mirt Tenk: wd it be possible to vary the times?
  • [13:48] Whump Linden: Mirt: what other times should be considered?
  • [13:49] Mirt Tenk: not sure b/c not sure what timezones are interested
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: timings fine for me, I just don't have time to attend many meetings
  • [13:49] BlueWall Slade: looks like there won't be a lot of new things till Zha is patching agin?
  • [13:49] Mirt Tenk: current time isn't bad but maybe two huddles a week, M & F, one 9 AM one some time other than 9 or 1:30?
  • [13:50] Whump Linden: Mirt: so maybe later in the day on Monday, so that I have information from my team's daily huddle?
  • [13:50] Mirt Tenk: wd make more sense to increase options
  • [13:50] Mirt Tenk: Yes, by all means!
  • [13:50] Mirt Tenk: that would be great
  • [13:50] BlueWall Slade: M-W-F ??
  • [13:51] Whump Linden: what time would be too late for Monday?
  • [13:51] Mirt Tenk: if you do office hrs W, just M & F?
  • [13:51] Mirt Tenk: later than 6 PM SLT?
  • [13:51] Xugu Madison: Anything after 16:00 SLT would be problematic for me
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: well, 6pm is my 3am
  • [13:52] Mirt Tenk: ok, earlier!
  • [13:52] BlueWall Slade: yow
  • [13:52] Mirt Tenk: I'm pretty flexible but even I draw the line at 3 AM
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: but I might not need to attend every huddle
  • [13:52] Tao Takashi: so if it's changing times then this might be good
  • [13:52] Whump Linden: so 15:00 SLT monday, the 13:30 SLT OO, and 09:00 SLT Friday?
  • [13:52] Sean18 McCarey: also the meeting can be transcripted
  • [13:52] Mirt Tenk: Works for me
  • [13:53] Xugu Madison: sounds good
  • [13:53] BlueWall Slade: sounds goog
  • [13:53] Whump Linden: okay, I'll update the schedule
  • [13:53] Tao Takashi: sounds good to me, too
  • [13:54] Mirt Tenk: ty
  • [13:54] Whump Linden: Okay, item 3
  • [13:54] Whump Linden: region URLs
  • [13:55] Whump Linden: at the moment, we're doing something a bit hacky to specify region URLs
  • [13:55] Whump Linden: you're entering the host name and port for the RD when you sign into the client or teleport into a region
  • [13:57] Whump Linden: so the question is how do we want, going forward, want to handle readable URL shortcuts to regions.
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: I was thinking about using XRDS-Simple so that you at least can remove the port
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: and service discovery is happening automatically
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: which means I wanted to experiment with this with pyogp
  • [13:57] Xugu Madison: I thought just use bookmarrks
  • [13:57] Tao Takashi: but this would only get rid of the port of course
  • [13:58] Whump Linden: something to think about is that the actual host running a region may change
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: well, then if you change the XRDS file to point to the new host that would be ok
  • [13:58] BlueWall Slade: I think that is what the external_host_name is supposed to be for
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: on the long run I would think though that there's some region domain service in place which does things like map etc.
  • [13:58] BlueWall Slade: in the region file
  • [13:58] BlueWall Slade: but seems that it isn't getting resolved
  • [13:58] Tao Takashi: so you contact this one and ask it for the region name
  • [13:59] Xugu Madison: I can see an advantage to having an SRV record type, so I can say "Go to the region for st-andrews.ac.uk" and it figures it out
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: well, you give it the name and you get the URL that is
  • [13:59] Sean18 McCarey: yes like dns
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: well, XRDS-simple is similar to that. It's getting more and more adoption these days in the web world
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: it's basically a simple XML file
  • [13:59] Tao Takashi: but I might post more about this to the list
  • [14:00] Whump Linden: Tao, what is it being used for other than resolving OpenID endpoints?
  • [14:00] Tao Takashi: we are also discussing this in the DataPortability project for service discovery
  • [14:00] Tao Takashi: that's XRDS
  • [14:00] Xugu Madison: I think while a master registry of regions being useful for a bit, but rapidly becoming unmanagable/unusable
  • [14:00] Tao Takashi: it's also in use in the OAuth spec
  • [14:00] Tao Takashi: sounds like a master registry of web sites ;-)
  • [14:01] Tao Takashi: that's why I thought take a region domain which knows about all the region in it's domain
  • [14:01] Xugu Madison: Exactly
  • [14:01] Tao Takashi: and you might have some sort of directory of these
  • [14:01] Tao Takashi: it might start like yahoo started and will end up like Google ended up ;-)
  • [14:02] Tao Takashi: but as short term solution I would already be happy with some sort of SLURL for region urls
  • [14:02] Whump Linden: okay, and keep in mind that region domains will probably implement their own systems
  • [14:03] Whump Linden: okay, I need to take the internal stawman doc and put it on the wiki for comment and we can come back to it
  • [14:03] Tao Takashi: (and a field to enter the AD)
  • [14:03] Tao Takashi: probably in some future client you might need some sort of account management
  • [14:04] Xugu Madison: That's crazy talk :P
  • [14:05] Xugu Madison: Seriously though... do you mean restricting who can access a sim from external? Definitely
  • [14:05] Tao Takashi: this might be part of the trust discussion
  • [14:05] Tao Takashi: well, it is/was already
  • [14:06] Whump Linden: Yes, I'd like to focus on 'name resolution' and assume that there's trust systems in place that will do the right thing with the dereferenced region URL
  • [14:07] BlueWall Slade: seems that either the grid service, or the viewer should resolve that external_host_name to an ip
  • [14:08] BlueWall Slade: for some dynamic dns situations
  • [14:09] Whump Linden: would the grid service take care of the dynamic dns for self-hosted regions?
  • [14:09] Tao Takashi: isn't this solved anyway by some sort of dyndns service?
  • [14:10] BlueWall Slade: not sure - but i know that is a bug, where you have to spec the ip and not the name in that field
  • [14:10] BlueWall Slade: even in OpenSim run grids
  • [14:10] BlueWall Slade: pixel will have an idea about that, probably?
  • [14:11] Whump Linden: actually, this is an issue in the OGP spec
  • [14:11] Whump Linden: the spec is expecting an IP address and not a host name
  • [14:11] Whump Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2788
  • [14:12] BlueWall Slade: a host name would be more flexible, at some level
  • [14:12] Whump Linden: so Tess is looking at that, and updating the spec and agent host
  • [14:12] Whump Linden: er agent domain
  • [14:12] BlueWall Slade: cool, in good hands :)
  • [14:12] Xugu Madison: it really ought to be hostname for hostnames that resolve to multiple IPs/IPv4 and IPv6 addresses/other weirdness
  • [14:13] Whump Linden: Xugu, yes, you shouldn't have to muck about with configuation files when IP addresses are reassigned
  • [14:13] Tao Takashi: what is expecting an IP?
  • [14:14] Tao Takashi: in which protocol function?
  • [14:14] Whump Linden: rez_avatar/place
  • [14:14] BlueWall Slade: failovers, load handling would be easier with name
  • [14:14] Whump Linden: see [1]
  • [14:14] Tao Takashi: looking
  • [14:14] Whump Linden: so this sounds like something to push up in priority?
  • [14:15] Tao Takashi: well, I guess Tess is right there
  • [14:16] BlueWall Slade: one thing, if these relate to OpenSim in some way, filing a mantis there (on opensim.org) might lure some talent into this project :)
  • [14:16] Whump Linden: kk, anything on the Region URL discussion
  • [14:16] Tao Takashi: to me this looks more like a client/protocol issue
  • [14:16] Tao Takashi: esp. with dyndns situations it should be easier to let the client resolve the name
  • [14:17] Tao Takashi: can't be too hard ;-)
  • [14:17] Whump Linden: er, any other comments on the Region URL discussion?
  • [14:17] BlueWall Slade: or, the grid could pass the ip that it sees back to the region in the region attach
  • [14:17] Tao Takashi: not from me
  • [14:17] Tao Takashi: you mean the AD
  • [14:17] Tao Takashi: I assume
  • [14:18] Tao Takashi: to me it sounds normal that where an IP is allowed you also allow a hostname and you eventually need to resolve it
  • [14:18] Whump Linden: Tao, yes, I think it's a misspecification in the protocol.
  • [14:18] Whump Linden: So, Item 4: OGP Beta Next Steps
  • [14:19] Xugu Madison: Getting the patch into trunk I think is the first priority
  • [14:19] Tao Takashi: which probably means that it should not break any other functionality
  • [14:20] Xugu Madison: Like regular logins, good point
  • [14:20] Whump Linden: Xugu: yes, I'd like to have that in trunk. I know there is at least one blocker, which is regular logins.
  • [14:20] Tao Takashi: yep, I guess people wouldn't like that ;-)
  • [14:21] Xugu Madison: So... fix regular logins, get it into trunk, and then...
  • [14:21] Whump Linden: so BlueWall mentioned above that filing some of these as mantis issues might expedite getting them fixed
  • [14:21] BlueWall Slade: if it can be a config option, especially if it can be in a module, then it shouldnt have much trouble getting in
  • [14:21] Xugu Madison: Make it work on grids instead of standalone regions, or inventory next?
  • [14:21] Whump Linden: Grids would be good.
  • [14:21] BlueWall Slade: yes grid<-->grid is a good step forward
  • [14:22] Whump Linden: It'd be nice to do an interopt TP to Wright Plaza for OpenSim OO.
  • [14:22] BlueWall Slade: WOOT! Yes!
  • [14:22] BlueWall Slade: lol
  • [14:23] Xugu Madison: grid<->grid is my favourite. Inventory is going to be a minefield of legal stuff
  • [14:23] Tao Takashi: yes! :)
  • [14:23] BlueWall Slade: that's easy to fix
  • [14:23] Tao Takashi: inventory needs some thinking, yes
  • [14:23] Whump Linden: Xugu, I want inventory, but we're going to have to be patient and work with the leadership in the content community.
  • [14:23] BlueWall Slade: have a one way gate, allowing OpenSim to SL transfers
  • [14:24] Tao Takashi: as for the client I would like to mention region slurls and AD url field ;-)
  • [14:24] Tao Takashi: actually loginuri field might be good
  • [14:24] Tao Takashi: it might even be useful on the regular client
  • [14:24] Whump Linden: damn, Opensource Obscure already left
  • [14:26] Whump Linden: So what I'll do is take this list to our upcoming meeting on next steps, but internally I think we're very interested in getting grid to grid and the patch merge as the next steps.
  • [14:26] Whump Linden: there's also the ghost issue
  • [14:26] Xugu Madison: Can we put licensing issues and inventry on the agenda for a meeting sometime, BTW?
  • [14:27] BlueWall Slade: hehe Zha is on IRC
  • [14:27] Tao Takashi: tztz
  • [14:27] Tao Takashi:  ;-)
  • [14:27] Whump Linden: Xugu, Zero's office hours have been the main venue for talking about those. I think once we get down to talking about protocol bits, it'll make sense to bring it in scope.
  • [14:28] Xugu Madison: I'll try to make sure I get to more of Zero's hours then.
  • [14:28] BlueWall Slade: good idea, it's too controversial
  • [14:28] Tao Takashi: we also talked about trust and such at the last AWGroupies
  • [14:28] Tao Takashi: actually I think at nearly every AWGroupies the last times ;-)
  • [14:28] Tao Takashi: but not yet in detail about inventory
  • [14:29] Tao Takashi: I think it needs some use cases written first
  • [14:29] Xugu Madison: I see a lot of reading of minutes in my future
  • [14:29] Whump Linden: yes, the discussion has been at a general level
  • [14:29] Tao Takashi: all the ways things can go wrong basically
  • [14:29] Whump Linden: so, the last thing is how to go about getting more OpenSim developer help
  • [14:30] BlueWall Slade: file mantis' there
  • [14:30] Whump Linden: we've been filing OpenSim bugs in forge and copying them over in JIRA
  • [14:30] Whump Linden: so should we stop filing in forge and move those issues into mantis?
  • [14:30] BlueWall Slade: the #opensim-dev has as robot that reports mantis activity
  • [14:30] BlueWall Slade: yes, at least copy them there
  • [14:30] Whump Linden: okay
  • [14:31] BlueWall Slade: that might work
  • [14:31] Whump Linden: then I'll make sure I have a working mantis account and copy those over.
  • [14:31] BlueWall Slade: i have filed oner there
  • [14:31] BlueWall Slade: i ref the jira # on it
  • [14:31] BlueWall Slade: and link the jira back to it
  • [14:32] Whump Linden: oh, what's the issue # on mantis?
  • [14:32] BlueWall Slade: let's see
  • [14:33] BlueWall Slade: i don't see it right off
  • [14:33] BlueWall Slade: i'll look from the jira side
  • [14:34] Whump Linden: okay, I can sync back up with you on IRC
  • [14:34] Whump Linden: because I'd like to get some folks looking at the ghost issue, someone said there's been some recent work on that from the OpenSim side
  • [14:35] Whump Linden: okay, we've run over
  • [14:35] BlueWall Slade: ok, what i did was link the jira to the patch mantis
  • [14:35] BlueWall Slade: i saw the ghosting ref'd there
  • [14:35] BlueWall Slade: a couple of days back
  • [14:36] Whump Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2735?
  • [14:36] Xugu Madison: Must run, take care all
  • [14:37] BlueWall Slade: see ya
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: bye Xugu
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: okay, we've run over by 10 minutes
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: I'll get the transcript posted with a summary, and I'll be on IRC
  • [14:37] Mirt Tenk: ty
  • [14:37] BlueWall Slade: thanks Whump!
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: so no meeting tomorrow, and instead the next huddle will be at 09:00 SLT Friday
  • [14:38] BlueWall Slade: sounds good
  • [14:38] Whump Linden: thanks, you all!
  • [14:38] Sean18 McCarey: ttfn
  • [14:39] Mirt Tenk: Bye Bluewall, thanks again fro all your help.
  • [14:39] Mirt Tenk: We'll be in touch!
  • [14:39] BlueWall Slade: ok,
  • [14:40] KustomKreator4U Inglewood: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [14:40] BlueWall Slade: hope your project goes well
  • [14:40] Whump Linden: wait! I forgot to mention that BlueWall updated https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Public_Beta/Open_Sim_OGP_How_To
  • [14:41] Whump Linden: with info on how to set up an OpenSim from a binary!
  • [14:41] Whump Linden: sorry
  • [14:41] Mirt Tenk: saw that yesterday, ty BlueWall (helpdesk employee of the month!)
  • [14:41] BlueWall Slade: hehe, it's a start
  • [14:41] BlueWall Slade: if we can get some info on different platforms would be great
  • [14:41] BlueWall Slade: I don't have Windows or Mac
  • [14:42] Whump Linden: okay
  • [14:42] Mirt Tenk: we were talking about that
  • [14:42] Mirt Tenk: we'd like to look at running an adjacent grid on a Windows test machine
  • [14:42] BlueWall Slade: building on Linux is straighforward
  • [14:42] Whump Linden: I don't think Mac will be that much different than Linux and will try that this weekend
  • [14:42] Mirt Tenk: if we did, could we put them right beside each other?
  • [14:42] Tao Takashi: building it on a mac was straighforward
  • [14:42] Mirt Tenk: We'd be using Win 2008
  • [14:42] Tao Takashi: I usually patched it and followed the instructions given
  • [14:43] BlueWall Slade: i know, i have talked with people trying to run under windows, and it has been a pain
  • [14:43] Mirt Tenk: we could probably get another static IP on another machine in my office to test this, but we'd like to test putting it adjacent to the one we already have