User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Aug 21

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:09] Zero Linden: hello all
[13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: no way will I attempt it in one prim
[13:09] Squirrel Wood: Hey Zero ^^
[13:09] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[13:09] Kooky Jetaime: I'm not getting paid
[13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: llSetText is not fixed width
[13:09] Tree Kyomoon: hello zero
[13:09] Wyn Galbraith: Hello Zero.
[13:09] Kooky Jetaime: but its arguably worth $2/year
[13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: numbers are 2.33x as wide as spaces
[13:09] Benja Kepler: hi zero
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Omg
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Zero's here?
[13:10] Tree Kyomoon: we were just discussing the sock market
[13:10] Zero Linden: what's up?
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: 5 minutes early?!?
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: WOW
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: heheh
[13:10] Zero Linden: Argyle!
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I was kvetching ab out llSetText myself
[13:10] Zero Linden: Oy vey... not that again....
[13:10] Zero Linden: :-)
[13:10] Tree Kyomoon: wyn mentioned that the dryer is a sink for the sock market
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, easy.. its either llSetText or Croquet..... I'll take the prior
[13:10] Zero Linden: funny
[13:11] Tree Kyomoon: llSetText or Croquet? weird choices?
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith is in a silly mood.
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: So
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: I'm in a busy mood
[13:11] Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
[13:11] Zero Linden: Hmmm..... llList2List or Haskell....
[13:12] Zero Linden: llGetWallTime or NTP....
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: We have a set topic today?
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: ntp
[13:12] Rex Cronon: so zero, have grifers started a new campaign of attacks against the grid?
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: why is half my hud missing?
[13:12] Zero Linden: no - only that, as Bullwinkle says "This time for sure...." -- we'll be shipping Het Grid, Iteration 1 tomorrow
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: did u look on your other monitor?
[13:12] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: horaay
[13:12] Tree Kyomoon: yay het grid!
[13:12] Wyn Galbraith cheers.
[13:13] Benja Kepler: what's in iteration 1?
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: "and their was great rejoicing..."
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: no, its completly on this window, in view (root prim) but I'm missing half the prims on it
[13:13] Rex Cronon: i have seen yesterday attacks using teenage mutant ninja turtles on the prims
[13:13] Tree Kyomoon: will het grid stop the whole crossing sim issues?
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: naa
[13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: that's a post-het grid server change, I think
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: Sim Crossng is gonna be fixed by Multi-Domain
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: HG, MD, where's teh TLAs?
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: or is it H-G, M-D?
[13:14] Kooky Jetaime: naa, we need SLAs
[13:14] Zero Linden: Oh - so, in interation 2, we can bring up beta regions on the miain grid
[13:14] Tree Kyomoon: what about that one where you sit and end up at 0,0,0 or all your attachments end up in your stomach?
[13:14] Rex Cronon: usually the attachments end up a little lower tree:)
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: so in version 1, you can have mono-enabled sandboxes?
[13:15] Benja Kepler: will the beta regions be restricted in some way or will people be able to blunder in?
[13:15] Tree Kyomoon: /just trying to be polite :)
[13:15] Kooky Jetaime: What about Havok :)
[13:15] Zero Linden: well - when you show up you'll get a dialog
[13:15] Zero Linden: that tells you "warning - beta region.... release notes are...." etc
[13:15] Kooky Jetaime: ok..
[13:16] Wyn Galbraith: Sorry phone call. Done now.
[13:16] Zero Linden: and it's beta code, but is' LIVE
[13:16] Benja Kepler: but what about L$ transactions? they'll be live in a beta sim?
[13:16] Zero Linden: hey, welcome Poppy
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: nice, Mr Poppy
[13:16] Tree Kyomoon: so we can teleport to the het grid from the regular grid?
[13:16] Wyn Galbraith: Usually transactions in Beta aren't real.
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: walk in, fly in,
[13:16] Kooky Jetaime: i'm guessing Beta Regions on MG are going to be less beta, more RC, right Zero?
[13:16] Zero Linden: Poppy is one of our devs.
[13:16] Poppy Linden: hey
[13:16] Tree Kyomoon: hello poppy!
[13:16] Kooky Jetaime checks his list
[13:16] Benja Kepler: hey poppy!
[13:17] Tree Kyomoon: boxy but good
[13:17] Zero Linden: Ah, well, it isn't a separate grid
[13:17] Kooky Jetaime: heh.. I already hit up poppy..
[13:17] Zero Linden: it *IS* the grid, or will be after tomorrow
[13:17] Rex Cronon: hi poppy
[13:17] Squirrel Wood: I guess you'll be getting a big red warning "Caution! BETA Zone! Watch your step!"
[13:17] Zero Linden: the "Het" is for "Heterogenous"
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: blue box, but perhaps we should jira for a big red one...
[13:17] Tree Kyomoon: hello kitto
[13:17] Zero Linden: so well be running beta regions just on the main map....
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith: Oh, I stand corrected. So now it's warning sim crossing and warning Het sim crossing?
[13:17] Zero Linden: you can TP right to 'em
[13:17] Kitto Flora: Hello
[13:17] Zero Linden: and if they were contiguous with non-beta land, you'd be able to just walk over there
[13:18] Rex Cronon: hi kitto
[13:18] Kooky Jetaime: Zero - Perhaps Beta regions should have their own icon, in line with the NoScript/NoBuild/NoPush/Voice
[13:18] Benja Kepler: I've met people in the beta grid complaining about losing money (after a grid reload) so there will be some confusion...
[13:18] Tree Kyomoon wonders if poppy is angry
[13:18] Zero Linden: Sq. - yes, "Mind the gap" and all
[13:18] Poppy Linden is just furrowed
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: so, with mono's advent starting asap, I assume that you can at least have mono-enabled sims on the het grid? versin 1?
[13:18] Zero Linden: Kooky - I like that... though do know if we'll have that at the start
[13:18] Kooky Jetaime: Well, its easy and unmistakeable
[13:18] Zero Linden: Yes - Mono will be one of the first uses of HetGrid1
[13:19] Squirrel Wood: Mmm. Mono!
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: I've got a brainstorm I'd like to run by yo and everyone lese about LSL and mono...
[13:19] Zero Linden: or, to put it another way, we needed HetGrid1 to be able to ship mono
[13:19] Squirrel Wood: Can't wait for Mono ^^
[13:19] Tree Kyomoon: zero I heard a rumour that you are considering ECMA for LSL , is there any truth to that?
[13:19] Kooky Jetaime: jeesh, in school the goal was to avoid mono.. now we're being asked to embrace it... .weird
[13:19] Wyn Galbraith still can't get over that it sounds like an illness... "When we all get Mono."
[13:19] Zero Linden: No, tree, that is a rumour
[13:19] Benja Kepler: Spanish for monkey as well
[13:20] Rex Cronon: so we need to get the beta viewer login into the beta grid and from betagrid connect to the main grid?
[13:20] Tree Kyomoon cant remember if I started that rumour or not
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: Mono is Spanish for monkey?
[13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I think I quoted you as saying you liked ECMA but maybe I said it wrong
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: LOL Tree.
[13:20] Benja Kepler: yes, Wyn
[13:20] Zero Linden: Rex, no no.
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: Well, that's interesting.
[13:20] Zero Linden: Okay, hold on
[13:20] Zero Linden: SO
[13:21] Wyn Galbraith holds on so she doesn't fall off ;)
[13:21] Rex Cronon: maybe u should post on the blog zero. i think others wil be confused by this too
[13:21] Zero Linden: 1) The "Beta Grid" may still be used at times for things in early beta -- In those cases, that grid will be a separate viewer download - and connect to a separate grid, where the accounts, L$, and land are "funny" and not tied to your real accounts
[13:22] Zero Linden: 2) Generally, though, we'll test beta simulators by bringing up specifica regions on the "Main Grid" - where the simulator on that region will be "beta", but the accounts, L$ and land will be REAL
[13:23] Zero Linden: and it will be the same "grid" - meaning you can IM, TP, fly to/from the normal regions we love
[13:23] Tree Kyomoon: will all regions be het soon?
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: after tommorrow?
[13:23] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, are the beta sims on the Grid going to be more analogous to Beta sims or RCs?
[13:23] Benja Kepler: will beta sims in live grid have live businesses ?
[13:24] Zero Linden: In those cases, a viewer download *may* be needed to try out all the new features... but you will be able to go there with the current viewer at the time, and any special viewer for such land will work on the existing regions
[13:24] Kooky Jetaime: All made possible by CAPS.. and not the key on your keyboard.
[13:24] Zero Linden: Yes, after tomorrow, the grid will be configured so that we can run any region we want at any version of the simulator and server software
[13:24] Squirrel Wood: W00t!
[13:24] Kitto Flora: Are there any regions of type 2) today?
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: on the beta grid?
[13:25] Zero Linden: Kooky- probably in more cases RCs..... but in some cases, like mono - they'll be very "beta" ish and be up for testing for weeks
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: ;-)
[13:25] Tree Kyomoon: can region owners request a switch to het or do we just wait?
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: they're AL het ager tomorrow
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: ALL het after tomorrow
[13:25] Zero Linden: Kooky - actually, most of it was made possible by "message liberation" which enabled multiple versions to be on the grid at once
[13:25] Rex Cronon: so there are going to be beta sims on the maing grid that are going to be accesible with the normal viewer
[13:25] Zero Linden: this work is the scripting and management tools to make use of it
[13:25] Kooky Jetaime: oh well..
[13:26] Kooky Jetaime: I'm lost in the various things going on
[13:26] Squirrel Wood: and these beta sims will give you ample warning about them being beta
[13:26] Benja Kepler: but not like the beta grid .... so why not call them something else? like deltas or something
[13:26] Zero Linden: Tree - in HetGrid phase 1, no region owners can't control when they run some version, beta or release ---
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: HET doesn't change teh grids, it jjust lets the LIndens individualize the grids
[13:26] Zero Linden: the estates though, will be running the control logic needed by het grid
[13:26] Zero Linden: Saijanai - that is a better statement
[13:27] Zero Linden: Benja - I think that is a good point - we shouldln't call such things "beta", even though "beta test" has such a well defined meaning
[13:27] Tree Kyomoon likes "delta"
[13:27] Kooky Jetaime: Delta means Change..
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: gamma?
[13:27] Tree Kyomoon: the delta quadrant
[13:27] Kooky Jetaime: I say RC fits here
[13:27] Zero Linden: Rex - exactly (to your last statment)
[13:27] Benja Kepler: omega!
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: delta works for that
[13:27] Benja Kepler: oops
[13:27] Benja Kepler: too far
[13:27] Zero Linden: he he - the "delta quadrant"!
[13:28] Kitto Flora thinks 'Beta' is too ingrained in Aditi/sep. grid, money, land....
[13:28] Benja Kepler: YAY
[13:28] Kooky Jetaime: Beta sims are beta sims, RC versions are RC versions
[13:28] Kooky Jetaime: lets not go reinventing the wheel
[13:28] Tree Kyomoon: mabey captain janeway is in the het grid
[13:28] Rex Cronon: so maybe u should call them deltas, less likely to confuse people
[13:28] Kitto Flora: Time for Gamma sims?
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: II still have this mono idea...
[13:28] Zero Linden: When we get HetGrid phase 3 - then estate managers will be allowed to choose what version of the simulator to run
[13:28] Wyn Galbraith: There is a Beta Quad
[13:29] otakup0pe Neumann: oh that sounds fun.
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn whines
[13:29] Turtle: whines? <snort>
[13:29] Turtle thinks Saijanai is full of himself
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: shut up turtle
[13:29] Turtle: Don't tell me to shut up.
[13:29] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:29] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: "If you wish to appear agreeable in society, you must consent to be taught many things which you know already." -- Johann Kaspar Lavater
[13:29] Tree Kyomoon: SL-ESE: "LL Mono Beta Gamma? Derka Derka! Sim slurl sculptie avvie!
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: about this mono idea
[13:30] Kooky Jetaime: hahah durka Durka...
[13:30] otakup0pe Neumann: so what's on the agenda today ? i got tied up in some threaded perl.
[13:30] Benja Kepler: Tree, with puppeteering you could make your own Derka Derka
[13:30] Squirrel Wood: Prime Sim / Laboratory Sim ?
[13:30] Zero Linden: hmmm... I don't remember inviting Testudines....
[13:30] otakup0pe Neumann: love the avatar Poppy
[13:30] Kitto Flora: Has anything been said about the big mem leak in the present viewer?
[13:31] Wyn Galbraith: Testudines?
[13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Patiently: about this mono idea...
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: Only pre-meeting Kitto
[13:31] Wyn Galbraith has to look that one up.
[13:31] Squirrel Wood: Every time you go to a beta (laboratory) sim you get to hear an eeevil, sinister laugh? XD
[13:31] Tree Kyomoon: testudines are turtles
[13:31] Zero Linden: alas... Poppy kernel panic'd
[13:31] Alpha Zaius: horray
[13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: bicycles
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway...
[13:32] otakup0pe Neumann: Aww.
[13:32] Kitto Flora: Poppy got bit by the mem leak
[13:32] Tree Kyomoon: hello alpha saurus
[13:32] Wyn Galbraith: Ah, so I see.
[13:32] Kooky Jetaime: yea... Its never good whne a linden panics
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, I understand that there will be LSL running on the LSL2 byte code interpreter OR the same source code running on the Mono CLI(?)
[13:33] Zero Linden: okay - Saijanai - what was the brainstorm?
[13:33] Zero Linden: Yes
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: from what you have said, we can't get mono specific features in LSL until the byte code interpretted code is converted
[13:33] Zero Linden: that is, you can choose at script compile time (save time) which interpreter you want to compile it for
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: to avoid the hassles of trying to add features to the LSL2 interpreter that it can't really handle
[13:34] Zero Linden: Er, not quite - we CAN offer new features to just mono compiled source - but only once we hvae the mono VM on every sim
[13:34] Alpha Zaius: there was a beta video of the early mono compiler thingy that babbage made that demonstrated the mono checkbox
[13:34] otakup0pe Neumann: Yeah. And the fibionaci sequence.
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: COuld we request a 3rd option? mono-sim only LSL3?
[13:34] Ally Moore: WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?
[13:35] Squirrel Wood: dual compile and use whichever bytecode can be run in the sim ?
[13:35] Kooky Jetaime: Its called a Meeting
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: that way we can start esting and palying with the new stuff before everything is converted
[13:35] Alpha Zaius: We aqre meeting with one of the architects of second life
[13:35] Alpha Zaius: you are doomed
[13:35] Alpha Zaius: good byte
[13:35] Alpha Zaius: har
[13:35] Wyn Galbraith: Language please, Ally. It's a meeting.
[13:35] Alpha Zaius: byte was not supposed to be a pun
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: he owns the sim and helped program it. No griefing, please
[13:35] Ally Moore: who said I was here to grief?
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: so much for that warning
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, can we get a ban please :)
[13:36] Entering god mode, level 200
[13:36] Wyn Galbraith: or at least an eject, how rude.
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: Everyone file your ARs :)
[13:36] otakup0pe Neumann: Good ol' metaverse.
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: Or can Zero just do it directly?
[13:36] Zero Linden: sigh
[13:36] otakup0pe Neumann: =/
[13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway, LSL3 for mono-only sims with new mono-only features
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: That says no he can't.
[13:36] Tree Kyomoon is surprised that doesnt happen more often
[13:36] Rex Cronon: the beholder is a weapon that is used to grief, by some pepole
[13:36] otakup0pe Neumann: LSL3 being LSL on mono ?
[13:37] Squirrel Wood: lsl on mono... sounds like it is on drugs :p
[13:37] Kitto Flora wanna try the steam train on the new mono system.
[13:37] Zero Linden: I'm not sure what you mean ---- we *could* support a different language (LSL2+ or LSL3 or...) with the mono VM -- since when you compile the script you choose the run-time VM
[13:37] otakup0pe Neumann: I want to try many things with mono :s
[13:37] Zero Linden: so when you compile a script for MONO - it will never run on the old LSL Vm.
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is, right now, you're saying no new mono-only features in LSL until all sims are converted.
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: I think most scripters would like to at least PLAY with new features that can only run on mono, even if they aren't backwards compatible with the old sims that don't have mono.
[13:38] Squirrel Wood: Humm... How about generating bytecode for all available VMs and then use the best one available in the sim ?
[13:38] Kooky Jetaime: She strikes again
[13:38] Kooky Jetaime: Ally
[13:38] Tree Kyomoon: now thats creative
[13:39] Rex Cronon: how many hours does it take to change the code for servers
[13:39] otakup0pe Neumann: haha oh man.
[13:39] Squirrel Wood: belonged to Ally
[13:39] Kooky Jetaime: Ok, NOW I'm filing an AR
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: On the roof.
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: she just doesn't get it...
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: Really wrong to grief a Linden LOL
[13:39] Kooky Jetaime: Agreed
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: More like stupid.
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Ally, someone with the last name of LIden works for Linden Labs...
[13:40] Rex Cronon: that pile of u know what is also used to grief
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith: She's gone now.
[13:40] Tree Kyomoon: wow payment info used and everything
[13:40] Tree Kyomoon: thats unusual for a griefer
[13:40] Squirrel Wood: Hello Tess
[13:40] Tess Linden: hi :)
[13:40] otakup0pe Neumann: hi tess.
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: ReALLY stupid, or at least, drunk. Or perhaps its a hacked account
[13:40] Rex Cronon: somebody could have possible got hold of her password?
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: Never, Rex.
[13:41] Zero Linden: sorry - had to take care of that
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: Everyone uses Strong 90 Bit passwords or better
[13:41] otakup0pe Neumann: Haha no worries Zero
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway...
[13:41] Rex Cronon: anything can be decrypted:)
[13:41] Tree Kyomoon: must be a stolen account, theres no way a land owning person with rental clients would do that
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is that scripters want new features NOW. Even if they aren't available except in sandboxes....
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: That way we can start experimenting with what they can do
[13:41] Wyn Galbraith: That's like painting your butt red and standing infront of a frustrated bull.
[13:41] otakup0pe Neumann: Do they want features or supre-mega-fast LSL ?
[13:42] Kooky Jetaime: SuperMegaFast LSL here
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: that's the point. LSL fast will come automatically with mono.
[13:42] Tree Kyomoon: arrays and objects here
[13:42] otakup0pe Neumann: tess you should twitter more ;)
[13:42] Squirrel Wood: Most will take all they can get and then demand more :p
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: So why not new features too, even if they are experimenta.l...
[13:42] Rex Cronon: there is a big drawback with super fast LSL. very dangerous weapons:(
[13:42] Kitto Flora: I claim to be a scripter. There's very few 'new features' that I want. Far more I want the bugs fixed. That would maks scripting soo much easier.
[13:42] otakup0pe Neumann: rex that can be said about any improvement, anywhere.
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: arrays?
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: better string handling?
[13:43] otakup0pe Neumann: heh
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, Rex has a point.. We need some hard-coded ways to deal with some of the existing weapons.. ie a built in movelock I think would cut it
[13:43] JayR Cela: Rex / side point to supe powerfull weapons is super effective deffinse devices as well
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: Hell, even a Stop All Anims that would work would be cool.. (or does it finally work?)
[13:43] Squirrel Wood: Yep. Movelock would certainly help
[13:43] Rex Cronon: i am not against it, i just imagine what is most likely to be used for
[13:44] Squirrel Wood: better weapons first, then shields. and of course, griefers will abuse it in any possible way.
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: so none of the scripters here want new features?
[13:44] otakup0pe Neumann: I'd be cool with arrays
[13:44] otakup0pe Neumann: And incoming HTTP.
[13:44] otakup0pe Neumann: And llPizza
[13:44] Squirrel Wood: Sai.. I just want it to work as is first ^^
[13:44] Zero Linden: I don't know what "movelock" would be?
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: they're willing to wait a year oir however long it takes to get all sims mono-enab led?
[13:44] otakup0pe Neumann: But just the thought of mono would be awesome.
[13:44] Kitto Flora: I want very few new features.
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: A way to stop you from being moved/pushed
[13:44] Tree Kyomoon: lol LLPizza
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: basically it holds you in 1 place
[13:45] Rex Cronon: oh i want new features, but there are dangers involved with that
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: and prevents outside forces
[13:45] otakup0pe Neumann: Zero think of it this way. You know how Linden's can set themselves phantom / nonphys ?
[13:45] Squirrel Wood: movelock "Lock me in place where I am when I am not moving on my own"
[13:45] otakup0pe Neumann: That would be good.
[13:45] Wyn Galbraith: Shouldn't that be LLOrderPizza()
[13:45] Zero Linden: mmmm.... llPizza
[13:45] Benja Kepler: Zero, any new LSL to detect type of sim?
[13:45] otakup0pe Neumann: Type of sim ?
[13:45] Wyn Galbraith: llOrderPizza(Round Table)
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: Because being orbed is a PITA
[13:45] JayR Cela: otak / yeah http / and finally dump this stupid continued use of UDP
[13:45] Rex Cronon: movelock=inability of others to push u with anything
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: better memory handling for strings and lists? multideminsional arrays and math to go along with them?
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: Class I'm assuming
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: but
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: none of this appeals?
[13:45] Tree Kyomoon: its funny that the lsl wiki uses cookies for sessions and llHTTPRequest doesnt have them :)
[13:45] otakup0pe Neumann: jayr udp doesn't have much to do with lsl from our perspective
[13:45] Zero Linden: Is there an external JIRA for that? Sounds like a sound idea
[13:46] Kitto Flora: Rex ; Try set 'no push'.
[13:46] Wyn Galbraith gives Tree a box of Fig Newtons.
[13:46] otakup0pe Neumann: kitto you can be oribted still, if there is scripting allowed
[13:46] Zero Linden: I could see some varations....
[13:46] Kooky Jetaime: Kitto - that don't work for our needs
[13:46] Tree Kyomoon doesnt like fig newtons, passes them back to wyn
[13:46] Kooky Jetaime: Especially with no-push defeating rounds
[13:46] Wyn Galbraith eats them all, more for her ;)
[13:46] Rex Cronon: in any sim u go to, not only on your land
[13:46] Kitto Flora: otaup: Then thats a bug in nopush. Bout time no-push was finally fixed/completed.
[13:47] Squirrel Wood: don't think there is a jira for a movelock but quite a bunch of multitools / flight assist scripts have a movelock built in.
[13:47] otakup0pe Neumann: Kitto I'm referring to non-physical objects that move. Cages that move, for example
[13:47] Kooky Jetaime: Kitto, your missing the point
[13:47] Squirrel Wood: though its ineffective when being pushed real hard.
[13:47] Kooky Jetaime: its not to stop us from doing it to you
[13:47] Kooky Jetaime: its to stop you from doing it to us
[13:47] Rex Cronon: there is a new function needed that detects who/what sent u an IM <<<!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess I'm wrong then. Scripters don't like better language features.
[13:47] otakup0pe Neumann: oh ! i see what you are saying - no that is not what i meant. but yeah.
[13:47] Tree Kyomoon: Saij I do!
[13:48] Tree Kyomoon: and I m a scripter too!
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: but everyone else has said its not important.
[13:48] Zero Linden: Rex - I suppose that would only work on attachments?
[13:48] Kooky Jetaime: Sai, I do to.but new features arn't going to be implimented until after Mono is in place and full swing
[13:48] JayR Cela: LOL all I do is modd other peoples scripts :_)
[13:48] Rex Cronon: yes zero
[13:48] Kooky Jetaime: And I totally appreciate that
[13:48] Tree Kyomoon: I script other peoples mods
[13:48] Kooky Jetaime: Do one thing at a time, do it well, and then move on
[13:48] Rex Cronon: last week somebody was spamming using that even here
[13:49] Kooky Jetaime: If that was how things were done, we wouldn't have ended up with this frigging memory leak in SL-Voice clients
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: that's what I'm asking for: is a way to speedup up the process: until mono is fully implemented, give us a LSL 3 option where we can test with new features, but they won't work everywhere until the conversio is complete
[13:49] JayR Cela: Rex I was attacked here last week and at Char Lindens places yesterday
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: this would also give sim owners incentive to convert to mono compliant scripts faster: they get new features
[13:49] Tree Kyomoon: yeah lsl 3 on some places would be awesome
[13:49] Rex Cronon: there is no way to detect who is spamming u
[13:49] Kooky Jetaime: Sai, just hold your horses and wait... we don't want to much parallel development going on
[13:50] Kooky Jetaime: it creates a nightmare
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: its not that parallel.
[13:50] Benja Kepler: Zero, excuse me for asking what you may have said already, but is the Beta Grid going to be switched off at some point?
[13:50] Zero Linden: Saijanai - the big issue is that while new scripting features (not function calls, real new langauge fatures like arrays) would be great, it we don't have the man power to do this now or near term
[13:51] Tess Linden: Benja, i can answer that
[13:51] Kitto Flora: Zero: Does that imply that LL *does* have the manpower for new LSL function calls?
[13:51] Benja Kepler: thx Tess
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see that but "near term" is relative. Wating until all sims are mono will take 6 months to year.
[13:52] Tess Linden: Benja - no Beta grids will not be switched off because we need to be able to test functionality that may affect the state of the grid that might not be safe on the main grid
[13:52] JayR Cela: off topic please whats up with tomorrows back end updates
[13:52] Benja Kepler: ok, Tess, thanks
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: er, HetGrid...
[13:52] Tess Linden: for example, if object permissions was one change we made, we would want to test that out on a beta grid first
[13:53] JayR Cela: Saij does this mean I will be able to TP without loosing my attachments ??
[13:53] Tess Linden: anything that might modify the simstate, anything that might modify your inventory
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: all I would want is for some work to start (and appear) earlier than AFTER all the sims are converted
[13:53] Rex Cronon: i shouldn't take that long to convert a sim
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: as I understand it, all scripts should be tested before conversion...
[13:54] Zero Linden: One of the big things that goes out tomorrow is making some of the central services save and restore their dynamic state so that we can upgrade them live in the future
[13:54] otakup0pe Neumann: which central services ? 'backbone' ?
[13:54] Zero Linden: for example, there is a server that manages the "agent presence" information - basically if you are on-line and if so where
[13:54] JayR Cela: Zero that sounds good !:_)
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: and you don't want to convert a sim without testing to see if something breaks...
[13:54] Zero Linden: this information isn't persistant -
[13:54] Zero Linden: at present, if that server goes down (intentionally or accidentaly), all that information is lost
[13:54] otakup0pe Neumann: so making the glue more upgradable.
[13:54] otakup0pe Neumann: mmm glue.
[13:54] Zero Linden: and it takes 5 to 10 min. for it all to come back.....
[13:55] Zero Linden: after tomorrow - when it gets shut down it saves state and restores it on start
[13:55] Zero Linden: SO - we can decided to upgrade it at anytime
[13:55] Rex Cronon: so would it save its state at periodical intervals?
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: so a fast-boot optio for sims now...
[13:55] Kooky Jetaime: Well, that helps intentional downs, but what about accidentals?
[13:55] Tess Linden: Saijanai, what do you mean by "all sims are het grid?"
[13:56] Zero Linden: Rex - it could, but not clear it would be of big value - so far the two down cases are
[13:56] Zero Linden: 1) we want to upgrade the code - but in this case we are shutting down cleanly
[13:56] Benja Kepler: sounds like an audit trail could be built in too, Zero, after a crash you'd know where everything/one was
[13:56] Zero Linden: 2) the machine goes wonky
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: someone asked if there was a conversion by sim, to het grid... After tomorrow, the entire grid is het grid
[13:56] Zero Linden: in the later - it takes more than 5 min. for us to get it diagnosed and replaced
[13:56] Zero Linden: so saving the data or having a recent backup woulnd't help - the data is all stale
[13:57] Zero Linden: So yes, we could periodically save, but by the time we got the machine up, it would all be stale data ---- in those cases, better to just let the service "heal"
[13:57] Benja Kepler: the downside being that after a tp with a shoe up your butt, a relog could find it still there?
[13:58] Zero Linden: With other services though, yes, having periodic checkpoints is a fine idea .... just like what we do with sims
[13:58] Rex Cronon: it could help u pinpoint what caused the crash
[13:58] Tess Linden: Saijanai, after tomorrow, we have the capability of placing beta regions live on the grid that run a different server code
[13:58] Zero Linden: well Benja, the, er, placement of the shoe isn't part of that data set
[13:58] Kooky Jetaime: Hey Zero, speaking of state saves..... Something to mull around by the watercooler, Is there any way to get more frequent saves of assets on a sim, so that if I say, drop a nocopy object, the sim crashes a minute later, I don't lose that object?
[13:58] Benja Kepler blushes
[13:58] Kooky Jetaime: Or some other methodology to stop that irritating fact.
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I understand, Tess. Someone ELSE was asking about sim-by-sim conversion to hetgrid, and I replied that "all sims are het grid"
[13:59] Zero Linden: Kooky - there has been a background design project to make sim-states be journaled...
[13:59] Tess Linden: ohh, gotcha
[13:59] Zero Linden: so each operation like that would write out a log entry
[13:59] Zero Linden: and then we could, on crash, load the last sim-state and replay the journal
[13:59] Zero Linden: but... hasn't been much coding on that...
[13:59] Kooky Jetaime: Oh, I think that would be the biggest best thing that could be done
[14:00] Squirrel Wood: It would certainly help
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: My one-line explanation for het grid is that it allows the Lindens to customize/individualize each sim's code
[14:00] Kooky Jetaime: That to me is certainly a "MUST HAVE" so why isn't it being given any priority?
[14:00] Kitto Flora: I dont get many cases of lost engines because of rez followed by sim-crash.
[14:00] Kooky Jetaime: Not to mention owenrs of the millions of lindens worth of lost inventory from those situations thinking its a must have
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: for every upgrade, there is its proper time and order-of-implementation...
[14:00] Kitto Flora: Maybe 2 a year.
[14:01] Zero Linden: Kooky - 'cause there are all at least 50 such "must have" projects - and we can't really do all of them
[14:01] Tess Linden: there is a lot of work being done to keep second life running, like the bug that zero mentioned earlier, that are much more time-constrained
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: ... I think the journaling could be considered more of a Must Have than voice..
[14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: was is trivial compared to some of this stuff
[14:01] Kooky Jetaime: Not to pick on poor voice..but..
[14:01] Zero Linden: and they are all of that urgency: Like reworking L$ transactions so that we don't lose any and can do them wtihout a single central DB
[14:01] otakup0pe Neumann: Much of the work on voice happened outside LL if i'm not mistaken.
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon hopes that SL innovation never stops because of critical mass
[14:02] Zero Linden: like enabling HetGrid so that we can test stuff out in a real environment, and stage our deploys
[14:02] otakup0pe Neumann: Better example would have been mono ;)
[14:02] JayR Cela: Kooky pick on voice all you want to / it was a poor decision to implement it so fast
[14:02] Kitto Flora: Bigger problem is 'take' and the take process crashes before object arives in Inv. and leaves an in-world gost. Had 3 in 18 hours of them. 4 in the last week.
[14:02] Tess Linden: :)
[14:02] Squirrel Wood: JayR voice has been in testing for months. it was certainly NOT rushed out
[14:02] Benja Kepler: all good stuff, Zero, Tess :)
[14:02] otakup0pe Neumann: Months if not years
[14:02] otakup0pe Neumann: It was a while :o
[14:02] Kooky Jetaime: ((Not to mention the sheer amount of additional work that Voice and its implimentation have created, such as the search for the memory leaks, rewriting the Chatterbox that many people hate in the first place, etc etc)
[14:02] JayR Cela: Squirell they why is it still so borked
[14:03] Rex Cronon: r those ghost objects still running their scripts?
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: /yes voice was not rushed, but its unprecidented technology
[14:03] otakup0pe Neumann: JayR if it makes you feel better voice hasn't worked at all for me in weeks.
[14:03] Kooky Jetaime: Voice don't work for me
[14:03] Kooky Jetaime: but
[14:03] Squirrel Wood: Jay... when you have 8000 people talking it creates a massive load :p
[14:03] otakup0pe Neumann: Everything short of reinstalling osX.
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: /voice works for me
[14:03] Kooky Jetaime: I'm not going to open that can of worms
[14:03] Zero Linden: Yes, voice was done with much outside help -- but the bulk of the voice technology had little to do with the innards of SL, and something others have better expertise about
[14:03] Zero Linden: sim state jouranling is clearly something we'd have to do
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: eh, voice is available on many other MMORPGs. It's not a core (SL) server technology
[14:03] Kitto Flora: Rex: at least one of the scripts is still running in the gost, and at least one is not.
[14:04] Kooky Jetaime: Zero - is there a list somewhere of the Current "Must Have's" and their priority?
[14:04] Kooky Jetaime: or just pjira?
[14:05] Rex Cronon: u could put a scripts that listens on a specific channel for a specific command from u. and when it hears it, will kill itself
[14:05] Zero Linden: kooky- there isn't a public list --- but I agree there should be
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: can llDie kill a ghost?
[14:05] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, something public and votable (simply)
[14:05] Rex Cronon: it should work
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: /isnt that what Jira is?
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm still waitng for scripting to become a top-level category/project in jira
[14:06] Kooky Jetaime: because I think that every business owner would agree that sim journaling (and other servers) is much higher priority than Voice, Mono, Het Grid, Etc, because your dealing with actual value
[14:06] Kitto Flora: Either llDies does not work in that circumstance, or the script it is in is not running (when at least one other is)
[14:06] Kooky Jetaime: And theres nothing on pjira for journal
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: but a lot of these (not voice) are fundamental architectural changes that make waht you want easier to implement
[14:07] Zero Linden: Kooky - the only problem with votable is that many of the things aren't sexy or user facing --- they'd never get votes: "Partition backbone processes" for example doesn't sound too interesting
[14:07] Squirrel Wood: Not neccessarily
[14:07] Zero Linden: or criticle
[14:07] Kooky Jetaime: Understandable...
[14:07] Kooky Jetaime: ok, no voting..that works
[14:07] otakup0pe Neumann: man i find "partition backbone processes" sexy
[14:07] Kooky Jetaime: I sometimes wonder about the whole voting concept on pjira anyways.
[14:07] Kitto Flora: Anyways - the ghost is not the big problem. The failure to transfer to Inv is the problem.
[14:07] Zero Linden: but it is holding us back from moving many things into services, whch in turn is keeping us tied to that central DB
[14:07] Rex Cronon: if is explained clearly what it is supposed to do, and affects money...
[14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: even when things should be obvious, they don't get votes
[14:07] Zero Linden: (all hail the central DB)
[14:08] otakup0pe Neumann: all hail web services
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: (like my call for scripting to become a top-level category/project in jira, for instance)
[14:08] otakup0pe Neumann: the central db is dead long live the central db.
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: so the move is to go away from a central DB?
[14:08] Kooky Jetaime: Heh Sai
[14:08] Zero Linden: Tree - absolutely -
[14:08] JayR Cela: zero speaking of the DB I thought SL was supposed to upgrade the MySQL to a newer more current version
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: good!
[14:09] Zero Linden: We are running MySQL 5 almost everywhere I think
[14:09] JayR Cela: ooops :( my mistake / well then homecome it still sucks
[14:09] otakup0pe Neumann: sucks - technical term.
[14:09] Squirrel Wood: Yay! A sim rollback due to a crash just killed a friends new no-copy bed and about 3000L worth of animations :(
[14:09] Zero Linden: well - the office here errupts in correcting me - there is still one major DB that is MySQL 4
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: /tree never thought he would be reduced to a cell in mySQL 5
[14:09] Zero Linden: but really, 4 -> 5 isn't some silver bullet
[14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-153 shameless plug time
[14:10] Kooky Jetaime: Just loooked it up Sai
[14:10] Kooky Jetaime: Zero, Is there a threshold for votes that will put it on someones desk in pjira?
[14:10] Wyn Galbraith thinks Tree is more than one cell.
[14:10] Kitto Flora: Squirrel: If your friend had a steam train there, he would get a free replacement.
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: for viewer suggestions/bugs, its 10 votes
[14:10] Kooky Jetaime: And dear god not let it be say 5% of the userbase
[14:11] JayR Cela: as far a DB issues go all week end I kept getting differnt total number of inventory counts evertime i relogged
[14:11] Zero Linden: No - because there are so many factors - who is available to do the work, how does it sequence with other work, what are the depenedencies
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: to at least make it to bug-triage
[14:11] Zero Linden: and then there are pressures that can't be seen externally - like stuff we need to do for billing, fraud, etc...
[14:11] Kooky Jetaime: I've seen 2 vote items in triage before
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: 10 votes guarantees triage
[14:11] Kooky Jetaime: Does it?
[14:11] Zero Linden: So, it is a complex system, and I can't see it being reduced to some mechanical process
[14:12] Kooky Jetaime: Sai - Except there are no Feature Request triages :)
[14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: was there when Rob set the policy at his office hours
[14:12] JayR Cela: Zero / Fraud / Monster.com just had 1.4 million records stolen / was reported by network world today
[14:12] Tree Kyomoon: /I have to say, the jira, wiki, office hours and in world groups are absolutely wonderful aspects of how open and transparent linden labs is with its customers. You dont see that often these days
[14:12] Zero Linden: that said, I think more than any other company I know, we really take input and use it - PJIRA, triage meetings, community input (like this)
[14:12] Kooky Jetaime: Tree - I hate to say, is it true transparency, or is it apparent transparency
[14:12] Kitto Flora knows companies that do better :)
[14:12] Kooky Jetaime: Opening the SL-Jira would be transparency :)
[14:12] Wyn Galbraith: Oh great, but heck if people are listed on Monster looking for jobs, would mean they wouldn't be smart canidates for stealing ids.
[14:13] Tree Kyomoon: /how much transparency does "facebook" or "myspace' have?
[14:13] Kooky Jetaime: Wyn - They emailed the people on Monster with a trojan that encrypted their hard drives, and demanded money to decrypt
[14:13] JayR Cela: Wyn still that is a huge breach in there infrastructure
[14:13] Kooky Jetaime: if I remeber the report right
[14:13] Zero Linden: Kooky - I don't think we'd claim to be perfect but I think we are sincere in our desire for transparency
[14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: facebook/myspece doesn't offer the chance for a RL living, as far as I know...
[14:13] Wyn Galbraith: LOL I'm protected then.
[14:13] Zero Linden: and I think we go far further than others....
[14:13] Tree Kyomoon: /sure they do saij
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith is listed on Monster.
[14:14] Zero Linden: AND
[14:14] Tree Kyomoon: and I agree zero, you do go farther than any other company I know of
[14:14] Zero Linden: on that note I'm going to take my leave
[14:14] Kooky Jetaime: Sorry Zero, not meaning to nail you hard or anything.. I used to work in the Security field....and have come to understand the appreciation between "Appearance Of" and "Actual"
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
[14:14] Zero Linden: Thanks for coming
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks zero
[14:14] Tree Kyomoon: tanks zero!
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks for having us crazy people.
[14:14] Poppy Linden: thanks zero! :)
[14:14] Zero Linden: No - no, Kooky - all is well - I'm leaving as it is 2:14~
[14:14] otakup0pe Neumann: Take it easy Zero.
[14:14] Kitto Flora: TY Zero :)
[14:14] Zero Linden: later all
[14:14] Kitto Flora: Byebye
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
[14:14] Turtle: Yeah, bye...
[14:14] Benja Kepler: bye
[14:14] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith is collecting bears, Tess... Poppy