User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Feb 13
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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:
| [12:54] | Willow Ranger: | hi redd.... |
| [12:54] | Thermoriax Golding: | I just consider the source, Johnny... |
| [12:54] | No room to sit here, try another spot. | |
| [12:54] | Zero Linden: | what am I doing up here? |
| [12:54] | Johnny Clarke: | l0l |
| [12:55] | Redd Nyle: | Hey there Zero |
| [12:55] | Thermoriax Golding snugs her wings back around Zero... | |
| [12:55] | Johnny Clarke: | u r the linden.. xD |
| [12:55] | No room to sit here, try another spot. | |
| [12:55] | Zero Linden: | okay - I'll sit here |
| [12:55] | Zero Linden: | hi all! |
| [12:55] | Johnny Clarke: | heyhey |
| [12:55] | Dezire Moonlight: | Hello |
| [12:55] | Thermoriax Golding: | Hi, Low, Median... |
| [12:55] | Fremont Cunningham: | Hello Zero |
| [12:55] | Redd Nyle: | Thanks for having us! |
| [12:55] | Zero Linden: | thanks for coming |
| [12:56] | Thermoriax Golding: | There are quite a lot of us wanting tech info, ya... |
| [12:56] | Johnny Clarke: | i think this is great.. |
| [12:56] | Johnny Clarke: | and i actually thought, there would be more ppl |
| [12:57] | Everett Mills: | Maybe people didn't realize it was 1pm PST. I'm East coast. |
| [12:57] | Johnny Clarke: | i see a naked woman.. xD |
| [12:57] | Thermoriax Golding: | People that /want/ to dig into Client/ Server handshaking...? |
| [12:57] | Redd Nyle: | I'm glad there aren't, this is so much more personal |
| [12:57] | Dezire Moonlight: | very true |
| [12:57] | Johnny Clarke: | i guess were not complete yet.. ^^ |
| [12:57] | Thermoriax Golding: | 1pm LindenTime, which is PST... |
| [12:57] | Johnny Clarke: | but u r right |
| [12:57] | Zero Linden: | what - there aren't enough people here for ya? there are for me! |
| [12:58] | Johnny Clarke: | no, thats not what im saying..^^ |
| [12:58] | Thermoriax Golding: | There... put my Developer cap on... |
| [12:58] | Zero Linden: | okay - I have no format for this - and haven't done one before, so it's kinda open.... |
| [12:58] | Zero Linden: | ... |
| [12:58] | Zero Linden: | but |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | I'd like to make sure that everyone gets to participate |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | so don't take it the wrong way if I table a discussions |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | for later |
| [12:59] | Johnny Clarke: | sure thing.. |
| [12:59] | Redd Nyle: | Can you start by telling us a little about yourself? |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | if there really aren't any others, we'll come back to it |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | Indeed |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | I'm a "Studio Director" -- |
| [12:59] | Fremont Cunningham: | maybe tell us what parts of the technology you know about, Zero? |
| [12:59] | Zero Linden: | which is Linden-speak for a person who |
| [13:00] | Johnny Clarke: | let him talk l0l |
| [13:00] | Zero Linden: | leads a group of engineers on a related set of projects |
| [13:00] | Zero Linden: | things that last more than just a few weeks |
| [13:00] | Zero Linden: | my studio, Studio Icehouse, is working on message infranstructure -- the parts of the system that glue things together |
| [13:00] | Johnny Clarke: | oO |
| [13:01] | Johnny Clarke: | ouch.. |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | since that is currently limiting our options in the mid-term future (like 6 mons. to a year) |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | An example is teh dreaded "Message Template" |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | which describes the messages that peices send to each other |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | right now - every SW piece has to be running the same version |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | which is why we often have to bring the grid down |
| [13:01] | Zero Linden: | or force you to upgrade the viewer |
| [13:02] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ohyes... I definitely want to talk about insystem messaging... |
| [13:02] | Zero Linden: | our studio is working to remove that restriction from the template |
| [13:02] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ever get the feeling you should have rented a stadium...? ;} |
| [13:02] | Zero Linden: | whcih in turn will enable things like gradual sim updates, more optional viewers, estate owner choosing update time, beta tests as part of the live grid, etc.... |
| [13:03] | Zero Linden: | gosh - welcome all |
| [13:03] | Tree Kyomoon: | hello there! DId anyone ask about Mono yet? |
| [13:03] | Zero Linden: | who knew this many nerds^h^h^h^h^hnice avatars would show up? |
| [13:03] | Dezire Moonlight: | LOL |
| [13:03] | Thermoriax Golding: | YOu just did... |
| [13:04] | Tree Kyomoon: | :) |
| [13:04] | Tree Kyomoon: | well?? the lack of arrays is killing me! |
| [13:04] | Zero Linden: | okay - mono - |
| [13:04] | Thermoriax Golding: | You have strings... you have Notecards... make your arrays... |
| [13:04] | Zero Linden: | realize that the first roll out of mono will still just support the LSL language |
| [13:04] | Thermoriax Golding: | How hard is it to make a translation layer...? |
| [13:04] | Zero Linden: | which, alas, means crummy data structures |
| [13:04] | Tree Kyomoon: | is there a plan to go ECMA |
| [13:05] | Fremont Cunningham: | Crummier than now? |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | well - MONO means that we have a VM that supports multiple langauges |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | BUT |
| [13:05] | Johnny Clarke: | why so many questions at once guys? keep it cool.. |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | no no, not crummier than now - exactly as crummy as now - it will be the same LSL language |
| [13:05] | Redd Nyle: | Guys, let's give some room, we'll get to everything. |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | BUT |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | adding support for another language |
| [13:05] | Zero Linden: | will |
| [13:06] | Zero Linden: | mena having to port/build interfaces to the whole LSL library |
| [13:06] | Zero Linden: | and figuring out how to match the execution model of the langague to scripts in prims |
| [13:06] | Heather Goodliffe: | Zero, theoretially we could add a a compiler to the open SL client that compiles other langauges and uploads the CLR? |
| [13:06] | Zero Linden: | most languages run a main() function and quit... which doesn't match scripts on an object, now does it |
| [13:06] | Thermoriax Golding: | No, but Realtime handlers do... |
| [13:06] | Zero Linden: | Heather - yes, you could, but we aren't supporting the full CLR - as the full CLR didn't anticipate an environment like SL |
| [13:07] | Fremont Cunningham: | It does as long as you dont quit. |
| [13:07] | Zero Linden: | so we'd have to carefully screen the assemblies |
| [13:07] | Zero Linden: | and that work isn't done |
| [13:07] | Heather Goodliffe: | right, but the compiler is in the client, so I'd imagine the compiling to the mono CLR would still be int he client? |
| [13:07] | Zero Linden: | Fremont - we are event based in our scripting, and while a loop that doesn't quit might seem right - we don't want each person to have tow rite an event fetch loop |
| [13:07] | Zero Linden: | in other languages |
| [13:08] | Zero Linden: | Heather - |
| [13:08] | Zero Linden: | the compiler will be moving to the simulator for LSL very soon now |
| [13:08] | Heather Goodliffe: | ah, ok :) |
| [13:08] | Zero Linden: | so, uploading compiled CLR will require a CLR verification step (like the Java verifier) |
| [13:08] | Fremont Cunningham imagined a standard interrupt vector set | |
| [13:08] | Fremont Cunningham: | But .. |
| [13:09] | Zero Linden: | Fremont - I can too, but again, we're going to have to come up with the "standard" way to map this into each langauge |
| [13:09] | Tree Kyomoon: | how about running from the mozilla to SL and back with scripts? |
| [13:09] | Tree Kyomoon: | is that a workaround? |
| [13:10] | Zero Linden: | Tree - not sure how you mean - but, for many reasons, scripts really need to execute on the server |
| [13:10] | Zero Linden: | for one, they are the only form of asset that we can completely protect since they never need to leave our network |
| [13:10] | Thermoriax Golding: | Data security, for one good reason... |
| [13:10] | Tree Kyomoon: | well if I need to do some math that SL doesnt handle, I can pass stuff from SL to say flash, then return results |
| [13:11] | Fremont Cunningham: | Is it still thought that LSL>MONO> CLR> ... will result in 'LSL running a lot faster' ? |
| [13:11] | Zero Linden: | true - for example now, many people do that sort of work by passing comuptation out to external servers via llHTTPRequest or e-mail and XML-RPC |
| [13:11] | Zero Linden: | Yes, LSL compiled to CLR, run on MONO is dramatically faster |
| [13:11] | Tree Kyomoon: | yes, but HTTP request HIDES the header info |
| [13:11] | Zero Linden: | thogh it depends on what your are doing |
| [13:12] | Zero Linden: | Tree, what does it hide? you mean the headers on the response? |
| [13:12] | Tree Kyomoon: | well I had asked about sending proprietery authentication headers |
| [13:12] | Tree Kyomoon: | SL should ignore them |
| [13:12] | Tree Kyomoon: | but it just gobbles them up |
| [13:12] | Zero Linden: | yes, we don't have support for the script to get those |
| [13:12] | Zero Linden: | that could be added later |
| [13:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | that would be AWESOME |
| [13:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | :) |
| [13:13] | Zero Linden: | it is common to put authentication challenges in the body - since usually most people come up with custom body formats for their LSL scripts anyway |
| [13:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | well, not in the internet world |
| [13:13] | Tree Kyomoon: | at least in my experience |
| [13:14] | Zero Linden: | true - if you are tring to talk to existing services -- though most have found LSL inadequate for parsing such things |
| [13:14] | Tree Kyomoon: | its really close....Im pretty excited about what ive been able to do so far |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | alas - I appologize - I worked on llHTTPRequest - and it was great fun my first six months here to be adding new features that people used |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | now, alas |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | many of us have dedicated ourselves |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | to less sexy tasks like message system |
| [13:16] | Fremont Cunningham: | What about resource control under MONO? At present many sims are saturated by excessive scripts. Running faster should help - but eventually people will hog the resources again. |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | to enable this place to scale massivly |
| [13:16] | Zero Linden: | whch - in a way - has it's own charm |
| [13:16] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ya... I was wondering about the scaling, myself... |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | let me answer Fremont's question - but let's move on to scaling from scripts for awhile |
| [13:17] | Radslns Hutchence: | its always about the messages |
| [13:17] | Heather Goodliffe: | yeah, I actually came here because I couldn't get anything done atm |
| [13:17] | Heather Goodliffe: | grid seems to be having issues |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | yes - there has been brewing talk about a mor comprehensive system for resource utilization |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | tying many more things to prims |
| [13:17] | Heather Goodliffe: | seems to happen around 2pm most days |
| [13:17] | Zero Linden: | or rather prim allotment |
| [13:17] | Thermoriax Golding: | for an N number of users increase, the messages increase how... Log (N)... N*N... N^2...? |
| [13:18] | Dezire Moonlight: | listens intently to changes |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | but it is difficult to come up with a plan that works equitably for land owners, avatars with attachments, and visitors working on your land |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | messages? well - now that isn't a simple answer |
| [13:18] | Zero Linden: | - but this is a tech crowd! |
| [13:18] | Heather Goodliffe: | Zero, account level quotas is somethign I had suggested |
| [13:18] | Thermoriax Golding: | We need to separate physical prims, from construction prims, and perhaps even from Scripting prims...? |
| [13:18] | Fremont Cunningham: | Just limiting Scripts attached to an Av, to say 100 max would help a lot |
| [13:19] | RJ Source: | A tech crown - but many sugar crashing from lunch.. |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | he he |
| [13:19] | Dezire Moonlight: | do you mean that the prims an avatar wears will then count against the land? |
| [13:19] | Heather Goodliffe: | dezinre, I mean quotas for all resources |
| [13:19] | Dezire Moonlight: | ah k |
| [13:19] | Thermoriax Golding: | Sounds more like a simple ceiling to Scripts- On_ PRims, Sis... |
| [13:19] | Zero Linden: | On limits - no, it isn't clear how to handle attachments - and even high end limits, like 100 scripts per, are probably not enough |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | okay - I'mgoing to move onto messages |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | when y ou are in a region |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | like here |
| [13:20] | Thermoriax Golding: | What would /use/ 100 scripts on an AV, really...? |
| [13:20] | Radslns Hutchence: | bad design |
| [13:20] | Radslns Hutchence: | some weapons systems |
| [13:20] | Thermoriax Golding: | Very... |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | the simulator is responsible for handling all the messages |
| [13:20] | Heather Goodliffe: | LSL kind of is condusive to bad design |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | for the whole region |
| [13:20] | Thermoriax Golding: | Weapon systems can offload some of that to object prims... |
| [13:20] | Zero Linden: | AND all the avatars in it |
| [13:20] | Kenny Bumbo: | do any of u think im sexy |
| [13:21] | Heather Goodliffe: | if you want modular code you have to have multiple scripts |
| [13:21] | Radslns Hutchence: | No kenny |
| [13:21] | Zero Linden: | some aspects of |
| [13:21] | Zero Linden: | the problem are inheritly O^2 |
| [13:21] | Zero Linden: | if there are 40 avatars moving, each viewer needs the messages of all 40 avatars+ 40*40 load |
| [13:22] | Dezire Moonlight: | Kenny this is a meeting |
| [13:22] | Thermoriax Golding: | Square increase... |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | Kenny join us please |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | or.... |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | well |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | okay |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | BUT |
| [13:22] | Zero Linden: | right now much of the other work is really only scaled liniearly |
| [13:23] | Zero Linden: | linearly |
| [13:23] | Zero Linden: | like doing search or inventory |
| [13:23] | Thermoriax Golding: | Is there a way we can send non- secure messages from client to client, perhaps...? |
| [13:23] | Zero Linden: | it's just that the load on this sim for all of us is much greater than the load on another sim with only one av in it |
| [13:23] | Thermoriax Golding: | More a Peer to Peer arrangement...? |
| [13:23] | Tree Kyomoon: | have you guys explored HHCodes to make the voxels render more efficiently? |
| [13:23] | Radslns Hutchence: | what's the message packet like Zero? any chances to make it smaller and shorter |
| [13:24] | Radslns Hutchence: | get more messages moving faster? |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | Well, peer-to-peer messaging has problems for most people with firewalls |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | Voice over IP does it with horrible tricks |
| [13:24] | Heather Goodliffe: | I was in a sim with 80 AVs in it the other day |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | that I'm not sure we want to code |
| [13:24] | Thermoriax Golding: | Once SL scales beyond a certain point, some tasks have to be shared off server... |
| [13:24] | Thermoriax Golding: | We cannot reasonably ask the Server to relay everything... |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | So, the packets are pretty small - and we don't see data size as the problem - just managign them |
| [13:24] | Zero Linden: | so a plan |
| [13:25] | Zero Linden: | is move avatar related messages to an avatar server |
| [13:25] | Thermoriax Golding: | Sounds good... |
| [13:25] | Zero Linden: | leaving the sims to just simulate and deal with messages |
| [13:25] | Zero Linden: | that are just region based |
| [13:25] | Fremont Cunningham: | Once central Avatar server? Or one per sim.. or few sims? |
| [13:25] | Radslns Hutchence: | do you persist messages to file regularly? in a DBMS? or is it all memory based? |
| [13:25] | Radslns Hutchence: | the client to client messages? |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | another tactic is to move manythings, like search, into HTTP based queries that your viewer can do, whcih means they can be vectored to other machines |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | right now the simulator for the region you are in must proxy the request for searches |
| [13:26] | Tree Kyomoon: | google search in SL |
| [13:26] | Zero Linden: | Fremont - the design would be one avatar server per N on-line avatars, where N is like 100 or 500 or so |
| [13:27] | Zero Linden: | (number to be determined, actuall) |
| [13:27] | Willow Ranger: | sounds costly .... |
| [13:27] | Fremont Cunningham: | Like he says - cost of scaling... |
| [13:27] | Zero Linden: | so we decouple the two axes of growth: land and on-line agents, into two independently growable servers: simulators for land, agent hosts for on-line agents |
| [13:28] | RJ Source: | Could be worse. Cost-wise. |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | well - at present we put a CPU on-line for every region - currently at what, 5000 and growing? |
| [13:28] | Thermoriax Golding: | Now... is there a way to break up the assets, perhaps making them a bit easer to handle...? |
| [13:28] | Radslns Hutchence: | yes |
| [13:28] | Zero Linden: | so, putting a CPU on line for every 500 on-line agents wouldn't be that hard for us |
| [13:28] | Fremont Cunningham: | What does this do for the horrors of sim boundary crossing in a plane at 100kM/h with 5 riders? |
| [13:28] | Radslns Hutchence: | hot assets.. stored closer to the AV |
| [13:28] | Radslns Hutchence: | and cold one |
| [13:28] | Radslns Hutchence: | s |
| [13:29] | Radslns Hutchence: | where delay is more acceptable |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | Rads - no, we don't ever persist messages |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | Fremont - makes it MUCH MUCH better |
| [13:29] | Fremont Cunningham: | Great! |
| [13:29] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ya... that would make people creep out real quick... the things they do here, being recorded... |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | see - at present, when all five of you cross - not only does the sim have to hand off the plane, but it has to hand off managemnt of 5 AVs |
| [13:29] | Heather Goodliffe: | Thermoriax, most things are recorded |
| [13:29] | Zero Linden: | and do this while IMs may be flying around, etc... |
| [13:29] | Radslns Hutchence: | again.. we're talking internal messages |
| [13:29] | Fremont Cunningham: | Right |
| [13:29] | Radslns Hutchence: | not chat |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | in the new design, the agents would never leave their agent host during this |
| [13:30] | Willow Ranger: | how about if the region-server and the avatar server arent in the same datacenter? |
| [13:30] | Zero Linden: | so the sim just has to hand off the plane |
| [13:31] | Heather Goodliffe: | the messages aren't recorded, but transactions with the database are |
| [13:31] | Fremont Cunningham: | av attach points all handle ok? |
| [13:31] | Tree Kyomoon: | that sounds like a great plan , Zero |
| [13:31] | Zero Linden: | the goal would be to allow the agent hosts and sim hosts to not be in the same datacenter - and use the public internet if not, though if they were, it would a faster connection |
| [13:31] | Zero Linden: | but again, there should much less hand off as you fly around |
| [13:32] | Karen Linden: | hi all |
| [13:32] | Zero Linden: | so while we are adding a |
| [13:32] | Dimitrio Lewis waves to Karen | |
| [13:32] | Redd Nyle: | Hi Karen |
| [13:32] | Zero Linden: | message path (agent host to simulator) we are reducing the amount of data moved |
| [13:32] | Tree Kyomoon: | then you could opensource the sim servers and av servers at different times! |
| [13:32] | Zero Linden: | indeed... we could...! |
| [13:33] | Zero Linden: | wow - look at tis crowd |
| [13:33] | Tree Kyomoon: | so any progress on Mozilla? |
| [13:34] | Thermoriax Golding: | LIke I said from the start... there are a lot of people hungry for some Tech Specs... |
| [13:34] | Zero Linden: | Note - we don't actually record much other than the state of things - the onlly transactions in the DB we record are L$ transactions |
| [13:34] | Zero Linden: | since those need careful accounting |
| [13:35] | Martian Manga: | I'm a bit surprised by Linden Lab's decision to strengthen the scripting environment internally (Mono). I guess I would've expected the strategy to be to encourage residents over time to host expensive processes externally and to simply pipe updates back and forth between in-world objects and servers. In other words, to leave objects doing only what only objects can do, if that makes sense. |
| [13:35] | Zero Linden: | Hold that thought, Martian.... |
| [13:36] | Zero Linden: | On Mozilla - there are still some significant technical hurdles here |
| [13:36] | Zero Linden: | we've got it working for much content as a 2d window inside the viewer, as you know |
| [13:36] | Zero Linden: | and you've seen (maybe) our demonstration of browsing on a flexible 3D surface with OpenGL |
| [13:36] | Zero Linden: | BUT, |
| [13:37] | Zero Linden: | The Mozilla codebase has been difficult to efficently integrate - it wasn't designed for this kind of rendering situation |
| [13:37] | Zero Linden: | so getting it on a prim is still a ways off |
| [13:37] | Karen Linden waves back...albeit belatedly! | |
| [13:37] | Zero Linden: | another challenge is that we haven't been able (nor has anyone) been able to get Flash to work rendered in an OpenGL environment |
| [13:38] | Tree Kyomoon: | do you lack support from ADOBE? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Finally, on Mozilla, there are many different ways people might want to use HTML on a prim: |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Is it a way to render text and images and layout statically on a prim surface? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Is it a shared browser? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Is it a UI subsystem for LSL scripts? |
| [13:38] | Zero Linden: | Is it a non-shared browser? |
| [13:39] | Zero Linden: | Does it look at content from the web, or content from in-world (HTML on a notecard or dynamically generated)? |
| [13:39] | Zero Linden: | Here's a request |
| [13:39] | Zero Linden: | PLEASE: write up a scenario of how you think of using HTML on a prim on a notecard and drop it on me |
| [13:40] | Zero Linden: | OKAY |
| [13:40] | Kibble Ahn: | I found an error in the source that is easy to fix. Since I'm not a payment member I cannot contribute patches. But it is easy to fix. |
| [13:40] | Kibble Ahn: | Can I just tell you about it? |
| [13:40] | Zero Linden: | We do want to encourage people to off load more computationally intensive processes to off-world servers |
| [13:40] | Heather Goodliffe: | zero, user quotas would do that |
| [13:41] | Zero Linden: | Kibble - I don't konw the procedures |
| [13:41] | Zero Linden: | surely you can put it on the Wiki? |
| [13:41] | Zero Linden: | Again, heather - user quotas aren't so simple - we can't compute the sum total across the grid |
| [13:41] | Kibble Ahn: | Aren't you the open-source guy? Or is that a different lInden? |
| [13:41] | Zero Linden: | and no quota in any region could be low enough to matter - |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | that is, any level we set that is functional, would be too high if 200 Avatars took advantage of it |
| [13:42] | Huns Valen: | some things need to run fast that cannot be effectively offloaded to remote data centers, such as vehicle physics simulations. we really need Mono to do that better. |
| [13:42] | Vitis Obviate: | there is nothing wrong with implementing basic html first? After all the web only had very simple html to start with and it was still useful |
| [13:42] | Thermoriax Golding: | Questions about Prims and Prim Rendering...? |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | Which isn't to say that we don't want quotas, just that they are tricky |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | Kibble - no, that is Rob LInden |
| [13:42] | Kibble Ahn: | Ah... okay. Sorry. |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | His plot is just down the way and he has office hours on Mon. Wed. and Fri. |
| [13:42] | Zero Linden: | No probl. |
| [13:43] | Kibble Ahn: | Are office hours of the different Lindens posted somewhere? |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | Huns - exactly - and even simple stuff is just too much of a drain with the current LSL VM |
| [13:43] | Karen Linden: | Kibble: I think so |
| [13:43] | Karen Linden: | on the event calendar? |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | Thermoriax - sure, but I'm not a big 3D rendering guy... |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | but, shoot |
| [13:43] | Zha Ewry: | Very minor logistics question, will you be posting a chat log, anyehere, for the whole session today? |
| [13:43] | Zero Linden: | Kibble - he's not on the claendar yet - but ther eis a sign on his cubicle (yes - his build is a cubicle! ) |
| [13:44] | Karen Linden: | ah, yeah |
| [13:44] | Tree Kyomoon gave you TO ZERO from Tree Kyomoon. | |
| [13:44] | Karen Linden: | that's too bad kibble. I see Jeska's but not any others... |
| [13:44] | Thermoriax Golding: | Well... there are all kinds of rumors and half- legends, and such... about how the client and server handle Prims and their related traffic... |
| [13:44] | Karen Linden: | Zero...ahem ;-) |
| [13:44] | Zero Linden: | Zha - yes, that sounds great |
| [13:44] | RJ Source: | Cubicle? Thats a little disturbing! |
| [13:45] | Zha Ewry: | If you'd blog a pointer, that'd be wodnerful. thx |
| [13:45] | Vitis Obviate: | Any plans to implment xml-rpc outbound to help with the offloading? |
| [13:45] | Zero Linden: | Rj - it is |
| [13:45] | Zero Linden: | goone, Thermoriax |
| [13:45] | Thermoriax Golding notices how well this Sim is handling this many AV's... ... | |
| [13:45] | Zero Linden: | Zha - I'll probably just amend the blog post with teh ranscript |
| [13:45] | Tree Kyomoon: | hmmmm |
| [13:45] | Thermoriax Golding: | Well... as I see it as a games programmer... |
| [13:46] | Thermoriax Golding: | You have a DB at the Server end, that holds a Data Record that describes the paramters of a Prim... |
| [13:46] | Zha Ewry: | k |
| [13:46] | Thermoriax Golding: | That is piped to all those in the sim area that will see it... |
| [13:46] | Fremont Cunningham: | only 31 avs in the sim and 1500 scripts. Light load. |
| [13:47] | Thermoriax Golding: | Now... one rumor I wish to find out one way or another, is about the practice of torturing a prim... |
| [13:47] | Karen Linden: | bye all! |
| [13:47] | Zero Linden: | Roughly - there is no traditional DB for the prim storage - they are stored in memory while the simulator is running |
| [13:47] | Khamon Fate waves | |
| [13:47] | Thermoriax Golding: | Or... setting values on properties that are not supposed to be on certain prim types... |
| [13:47] | Zero Linden: | and we don't send them all to the viewer - there is an "interest list" calculation so we only need to send what is required |
| [13:48] | RJ Source: | Torturng, etc, sounds dangerous - and possibly unsupported in the future. |
| [13:48] | Zero Linden: | I'm not sure that is what people mean by "torturing" a prim |
| [13:48] | Zero Linden: | but, in any case, our format for sending prim information down is very very compact |
| [13:48] | Thermoriax Golding: | I can understand if haivng the values be unexpected ranges can cause problems with Havok... or with the Client... |
| [13:48] | Zero Linden: | and doesn't correlate to how complicated it might be to render |
| [13:49] | Zha Ewry: | Cycling through the various underlying forms to get prims set with odd paramaters which wouldn't show in the normal tool |
| [13:49] | Thermoriax Golding: | THis gold halo over my head is a Tortured Prim... |
| [13:49] | Khamon Fate: | zero will we ever be able to see for miles by rendering small approximations of larger prims without having to calc the entire view? |
| [13:49] | Thermoriax Golding: | Not as tortured as some sculptors use... but enough of one... |
| [13:49] | Khamon Fate: | or are we always gonna just stop rendering at some close distance? |
| [13:50] | Thermoriax Golding: | The idea is to get more of a range out of the same data stream and server load... |
| [13:50] | Khamon Fate: | and thank you for posting regular office hours, this is going to be nice |
| [13:50] | Thermoriax Golding: | Many believe that Tortured prims somehow increase load on SL... |
| [13:50] | Thermoriax Golding: | As many believe particles do... |
| [13:50] | Zha Ewry: | (How? the rendering is all client side, isn't it?) |
| [13:50] | Zero Linden: | well - both those things really only put load on the viewer |
| [13:51] | Thermoriax Golding: | /Exactly/ Zha... that is what I can't see... |
| [13:51] | Zero Linden: | unless we are talking about things like mega-prims |
| [13:51] | Khamon Fate claps for mega-prims | |
| [13:51] | Thermoriax Golding: | I can understand the problem with Havoc and Megaprims... |
| [13:51] | Nobody Fugazi's ears perk up | |
| [13:51] | Zero Linden: | those cause problems sim side as they increase the amount of work the sim has to do - |
| [13:51] | Dimitrio Lewis: | what is the policy on mega prims btw? |
| [13:52] | Thermoriax Golding: | Would it improve things, to separate Phys Prims from regular prims...? |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | Thermoriax - we already do |
| [13:52] | Thermoriax Golding: | Hmm... |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | but even non-physics, phantom mega prims are a problem - for example, they will show up on EVERYONE's interest list |
| [13:52] | Zero Linden: | and will have to be communicated to all neighboring sims |
| [13:53] | Fremont Cunningham: | Thats interesting - how are phys. prims 'separated' from non-phys prims? |
| [13:53] | Tree Kyomoon: | so they wouldnt matter so much on an island |
| [13:53] | Tree Kyomoon: | but on the mainland |
| [13:53] | Zero Linden: | so- you can see that the 10m size limit is really a way of enforcing a limit on the amount of work per prim |
| [13:53] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ok... Megaprims are upscale enough they have to be viewable from a /distance/ like sim- to- sim... |
| [13:54] | Zero Linden: | the are separated in how they are managed with respect to havok - on the viewer it makes no difference |
| [13:54] | Thermoriax Golding: | Prims are primarily a method of conveying a vertex pattern to the renderer... |
| [13:54] | Tabitha Miranda: | so should people be using mega prims or not..i see several used as screens to block ugly views |
| [13:54] | Tabitha Miranda: | some say its ok others say no |
| [13:55] | Fremont Cunningham: | Interesting because of the old old prim drifting and spinning problem. |
| [13:55] | Thermoriax Golding: | If we are willing to accept a negative- space prim as taking a primcount slot... |
| [13:55] | Thermoriax Golding: | Is there a reason we cannot use them to help shape Linksets...? |
| [13:56] | Zero Linden: | Ah - well, abstractly, no - |
| [13:56] | Zero Linden: | but it will require the work to add that to all the various geometry chains - both rendering, and simulation |
| [13:56] | Thermoriax Golding: | Perhaps a surface- limit could be proposed...? |
| [13:57] | Huns Valen: | Andrew Linden commented in 2003 that arbitrary concave stuff would be hard to set up in Havok |
| [13:57] | Zero Linden: | There are a lot of different models that could be considered.... |
| [13:57] | Thermoriax Golding: | Might not add to the server end, but it will add work to the Client end, I can see... |
| [13:57] | Zero Linden: | ...but there are limits to finding things that will work with all the generality that SL offers |
| [13:57] | Zero Linden: | I don't think we'd want to offer prim types that could only be non-physical and phantom, for example |
| [13:58] | Jarod Godel: | Isn't that how floppy prims work? |
| [13:58] | Khamon Fate: | yes floppies are autophantom nonphysical |
| [13:58] | Thermoriax Golding: | Flexis are prolly based along a flexible 'spine' that is handled through Havoc first, then the Prim is rendered on it... |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | they are client side, and you can have almost anythin floppy - and I know there are desingers willing to give their left-attachment for the rest of the shapes to be flexi |
| [13:59] | Khamon Fate: | how 'bout prims that once locked can only be taken, not unlocked? hmm |
| [13:59] | Huns Valen: | flexible prims don't involve havok |
| [13:59] | Thermoriax Golding: | I would be content with being able to pin another Prim to a place on a Flexi... |
| [13:59] | Fremont Cunningham: | non-phys &phantom prims are used for position markers. But you rarely care about its shape or size. A small cube will do |
| [13:59] | Zero Linden: | Khamon- you raise the issue of the permissions - |
| [13:59] | Thermoriax Golding: | Or describe a path, and a shape to apply on a path... |
| [14:00] | Thermoriax Golding: | Ahh... dreams of spline solids... |
| [14:00] | Zero Linden: | there are quite a number of possible changes to the permissions system |
| [14:00] | Zero Linden: | but |
| [14:00] | Khamon Fate: | i'm more thinking lack of updates |
| [14:00] | Khamon Fate: | but |
| [14:00] | Khamon Fate: | ha ha ha |
| [14:01] | Zero Linden: | I think we are going to let that sit for a more comprehensive review |
| [14:01] | Khamon Fate: | my original client-oriented rendering question was whether or not we'll ever be able see long distances without having to download, calc and render every tiny little prim? |
| [14:01] | Zero Linden: | whew - well, it is 2pm - I can go for another 1/2 hour if folks like |
| [14:02] | Nobody Fugazi: | sure :-D |
| [14:02] | Zero Linden: | Khamon - I don't know |
| [14:02] | Tree Kyomoon: | please |
| [14:02] | Zha Ewry: | Yes :-) |
| [14:02] | Nobody Fugazi: | ok... well, with attachments when crossing sim borders, is it that sometimes pointers don't pass correctly - thus flexihair ends up in the crotch? :-D |
| [14:02] | Redd Nyle: | We would like, I think I can say for all of us |
| [14:02] | Dnali Anabuki: | plse |
| [14:02] | Khamon Fate: | for instance, it'd be nice to set my client to see clearly for 256m then only larger prims up to 1024 |
| [14:02] | Khamon Fate: | or something |
| [14:02] | Huns Valen: | ok, are we going to see any motion on fixing stuttery physical objects soon? |
| [14:02] | Zero Linden: | It would more difficult in SL - as that is typically done with precomputation |
| [14:02] | Zero Linden: | but that doesn't seem like it is going to work well for SL |
| [14:03] | Jarod Godel: | Couldn't the client do the precomputation? |
| [14:03] | Jarod Godel: | Like floppies. Just dump everything to the client, and render based on his local settings? |
| [14:03] | Jarod Godel: | We already do that with particles. |
| [14:03] | BinaryMe Remblai: | I hope I don't start a riot, but how can huge prims adversly affect my region? |
| [14:03] | Rex Cronon: | hello everybody |
| [14:03] | Zero Linden: | but Jarod - then you'd have to send all the geometry |
| [14:04] | Khamon Fate: | wull particles aren't visible across borders in first look anymore |
| [14:04] | Jarod Godel: | That doesn't get sent already? |
| [14:04] | Jarod Godel: | Then how does the client know what to draw? |
| [14:04] | Khamon Fate: | jarod we only download up to our draw distance |
| [14:04] | Khamon Fate: | so we see that far then we see a blank horizon |
| [14:04] | Zero Linden: | Nobody - yes, the attachment move on region cross is a plague! We know about it... don't have a fix for it yet |
| [14:05] | Jarod Godel: | But downloading and rendering are two seperate processes, Khamon. |
| [14:05] | Tree Kyomoon: | New question....you guys must have an offline client for scripting....is that possible for us to get our hands on? |
| [14:05] | Zero Linden: | BinaryMe - I discussed that earlier |
| [14:05] | Jarod Godel: | Tree, Khamon has a copy of one |
| [14:05] | Zero Linden: | Tree - you will be surprized to learn that we do not |
| [14:05] | Khamon Fate: | i'm wondering if we can download just the groundmesh and very large prims beyond that and see for some actual distance |
| [14:05] | Zero Linden: | We all script in world |
| [14:05] | Nobody Fugazi: | cool, thanks Zero. Its why I stopped using human form. Hair in the crotch is hard to explain when showing up at events. :-D |
| [14:06] | Soft Noel: | What's the advantage of scripting offline? |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | Actually |
| [14:06] | Khamon Fate: | the problem with scripting inworld is the thing HAS to compile or it can't be saved |
| [14:06] | Thermoriax Golding: | Yes... and you need to teach the LSL engine about commutative math... |
| [14:06] | Zha Ewry: | Related question, to the prim on crossing question. What's exactly going on with a re-bake? and why does it seem to be so random in whether it takes or not. |
| [14:06] | Khamon Fate: | that's kinda silly |
| [14:06] | Tree Kyomoon: | I ran a say script today by accident that went into an infinte loop conversation...had I been on the mainland.... |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | personally, I use SubEthaEdit, with the LSL plug-in (which I wrote, but it is on their site), |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | to edit scripts |
| [14:06] | Zero Linden: | and copy/paste into SL |
| [14:06] | Khamon Fate: | i script using an offline colour coded editor and upload to debug |
| [14:06] | BinaryMe Remblai: | About what I figured. Going to have a transcript of the answer? |
| [14:07] | Zero Linden: | Yes, I'll post transcripts to the blog post |
| [14:07] | Tree Kyomoon: | Im looking more for a practice runtime so I dont blow up SL with some crazy script |
| [14:07] | Khamon Fate claps for transcripts | |
| [14:07] | Heather Goodliffe: | hey Zero, btw, do you know anythign about the vehicle stutter movement issue? |
| [14:08] | Zero Linden: | Heather, alas, I don't |
| [14:08] | Nobody Fugazi: | hmm.... a LSL simulator would be useful for a few different reasons, but overall if it has to work in a concurrent environment, the simulator would have to allow for concurrent scripts as well. |
| [14:08] | Heather Goodliffe: | do you konw who I can talk to abou tthat? |
| [14:08] | Redd Nyle gave you Redd Nyle: A use for http on prims. | |
| [14:08] | Tree Kyomoon: | not necessarily...there is a lot you can do with script that is just gruntwork |
| [14:08] | Zero Linden: | Heather - do you mean on region crossing? |
| [14:09] | Huns Valen: | I bet she doesn't! |
| [14:09] | Thermoriax Golding: | Could we have more 'revolve' or 'extrude' prims...? Prims that are made from revolved 2D shapes... or ones dragged in the 3rd dimension... |
| [14:09] | Heather Goodliffe: | Zero, no, when you try to move a vehicle in a straight path it stutters |
| [14:09] | Heather Goodliffe: | within the sim |
| [14:09] | Heather Goodliffe: | stutters really badly |
| [14:09] | Zero Linden: | I'd IM Andrew Linden about that |
| [14:09] | Heather Goodliffe: | it's like lag, but not |
| [14:09] | Khamon Fate: | heather are you using the first look client or the regular one? |
| [14:09] | Huns Valen: | low velocity with no angular momentum = moving in huge discreet steps rather than smoothly |
| [14:09] | Heather Goodliffe: | the server just isn't sending updates |
| [14:09] | BinaryMe Remblai: | is there a way to move something underground? |
| [14:10] | Zero Linden: | BinaryMe - no |
| [14:10] | Zero Linden: | not really |
| [14:10] | Huns Valen: | that problem is not specific to first look |
| [14:10] | Heather Goodliffe: | Khamon, the regular one |
| [14:10] | Khamon Fate claps for terrain prims | |
| [14:10] | BinaryMe Remblai: | oh ok |
| [14:10] | Zero Linden: | or rather, not intentionally |
| [14:10] | Khamon Fate claps for mesh prims | |
| [14:10] | Heather Goodliffe: | it's been happening since the last big update |
| [14:10] | Redd Nyle: | Has LL been working in depth with any companies to allow custom solutions for large corporate projects or do all projects have to go through third parties? |
| [14:10] | Tree Kyomoon: | more mesh prims :) |
| [14:10] | Khamon Fate claps for caves | |
| [14:10] | BinaryMe Remblai: | hi |
| [14:10] | Zero Linden: | I can see a future with more prim types - including meshes and ground types |
| [14:10] | Zero Linden: | BUT |
| [14:10] | Rex Cronon: | actually there is a way to move objects underground |
| [14:10] | Huns Valen: | redd I am pretty sure they just say "electricsheepcompany.com thx bye" when a company asks them abou tthat |
| [14:11] | Zero Linden: | I don't think much work is going to go on there until we get the scaling issues out of the way |
| [14:11] | Jarod Godel: | Your chairs are insane. |
| [14:11] | Tree Kyomoon: | what would be really handy is FONT prims |
| [14:11] | Khamon Fate: | SIT DOWN JAROD |
| [14:11] | Thermoriax Golding: | Prims move Ok underground, as long as the Havoc engine is not invoked, as it detects out of bounds, and flushes the prims... |
| [14:11] | Khamon Fate: | any eta on those scaling issues? |
| [14:11] | Zero Linden: | Redd- LL doesn't do any solutions for 3rd parties - we refer them ALL to the developer listings |
| [14:12] | Redd Nyle: | I see |
| [14:12] | Redd Nyle: | That's rule seems to be iron clad, then |
| [14:12] | Zero Linden: | Really - we just don't have the bandwidth for that sort of thing - and really, the developers do a much better job of that sort of thing than we could! |
| [14:12] | Zero Linden: | (IMHO!) |
| [14:12] | Khamon Fate: | zero can you itemize the scaling issues for us? |
| [14:12] | Rex Cronon: | i would really like to be able to create/edit notecards using scripts |
| [14:12] | Jarod Godel: | hahaha |
| [14:12] | Redd Nyle: | hehe |
| [14:12] | Khamon Fate: | bandwidth == manpower |
| [14:12] | Fremont Cunningham: | Heather - the vehicle straight line stutter was introduced the the last update, it was identified and bug reported several times. It was ignored and moved to main grid. |
| [14:12] | Jarod Godel: | sorry. just calculating the odds of that ever happening. |
| [14:12] | Tree Kyomoon: | and have Fonts in notecards |
| [14:13] | Heather Goodliffe: | Fremont, thanks |
| [14:13] | Zero Linden: | Rex- will never happen - really - use llHTTPRequest and store the data on your own server |
| [14:13] | Heather Goodliffe: | I couldn't seem to get a Linden to acknoledge the problem |
| [14:13] | Khamon Fate: | have script writing to notecards ~ have script writing to mysql ~ dream dream dreeeeeeam |
| [14:13] | Heather Goodliffe: | good to know they supposedly know abou tit |
| [14:13] | Huns Valen: | Heather, look for "jerky" on jira |
| [14:13] | Jarod Godel: | http is the new filehandle. rss is the new | |
| [14:13] | Rex Cronon: | than allow to read more than 256 chars per line |
| [14:13] | Huns Valen: | I'll get the link maybe... |
| [14:14] | Khamon Fate: | uhuh jarod curlhead |
| [14:14] | Huns Valen: | yeah here it is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-86 |
| [14:14] | Zero Linden: | khmon - excellent question - re scaling |
| [14:14] | Khamon Fate: | zero can you itemize the scaling issues for us? |
| [14:14] | Zero Linden: | Let's see: there are |
| [14:14] | Zha Ewry: | Zero if the answeris http request, can we get beyond 2048 bytes? (and Ideally non text) |
| [14:14] | BinaryMe Remblai: | So - it only takes a sec to see, zero that you are sort of delivered as meat for those who do have questions. Thanks. But not so tasty. |
| [14:15] | BinaryMe Remblai: | Have fun guys. |
| [14:15] | Redd Nyle: | Hey! BeKind. |
| [14:15] | Zero Linden: | 1) Database access - we have lots of things in a central database, - this worked well when small, but needs to be broken up |
| [14:15] | Vitis Obviate: | and xml-rpc outbound? |
| [14:15] | Jarod Godel: | But baby Jesus needs his central asset server. |
| [14:15] | BinaryMe Remblai: | Not in the mood- just had a bad experience with "help". |
| [14:16] | Khamon Fate: | shush jardon |
| [14:16] | Rex Cronon: | oh, and i would also like to be able to read textAbove and particles attributes |
| [14:16] | Zero Linden: | 2) Managing a growing network of machines in multiple data centers |
| [14:17] | Zero Linden: | 3) Re architecting the system a bit to be able to scale linearly (discussed extensively earlier on) |
| [14:17] | Khamon Fate: | are y'all able to pay for a severly limited number of hops between colos? |
| [14:17] | Khamon Fate: | or is that prohibitivly expensive? |
| [14:17] | Huns Valen: | khamon that is a great question |
| [14:17] | Zero Linden: | 4) Handling a more hetrogenous grid - so that we can do all operations in stages |
| [14:18] | Zero Linden: | 5) Removing dependencies between sub-systems so things can go down without pulling everything with them |
| [14:18] | Zero Linden: | That was a really off-the-top-of-my-head list |
| [14:18] | Zero Linden: | not bullet points off a slide |
| [14:18] | Jarod Godel: | How many sub-systems are there, if I may ask? |
| [14:18] | Zero Linden: | so, take it for htat |
| [14:19] | Jarod Godel: | Roughly. |
| [14:19] | Thermoriax Golding: | Messaging - Is there a way we can have a UUID we can send a message to, with a preamble of UUID from, and UUID to, and the Message Body... so anyone/ anything can send to anyone/ anything...? |
| [14:19] | Khamon Fate: | thanks, that helps me envision the BBLOTD a bit better considering the recent offloading of services to the new messaging system |
| [14:19] | Huns Valen: | well yeah we can email objects by uuid |
| [14:19] | Zero Linden: | Khamon - we have beefy links between our two colos - but the VPN in there is a limit.... we need to rearchitect things so that we can make use of the public internet for those transfers |
| [14:20] | Zero Linden: | How many sub-systems? Well, right now about a dozen - but with |
| [14:20] | Khamon Fate: | not a UUID anymore Therm, messages are not assets anymore |
| [14:20] | Jarod Godel: | Will #2 and #5 help with that? |
| [14:20] | Zero Linden: | the need to break things into separately scalable parts, there will be three to four times that |
| [14:20] | Khamon Fate: | rather message sessions are not assets anymore |
| [14:20] | Khamon Fate: | khamon's head begins to tingle |
| [14:21] | Zero Linden: | Uhm- well here, look at it this way |
| [14:21] | Zero Linden: | if we could identify a thing by a UUID - |
| [14:21] | Jarod Godel: | I am glad to hear you guys are modularizing. |
| [14:21] | Zero Linden: | then there would be a central relationship that knows how to find an object, anwhere in the grid, by UUID |
| [14:21] | Zero Linden: | that doesn't scale so well! |
| [14:22] | Khamon Fate: | oh granted if you're going to allow private hosting to connect the TGAHTCG, it'll have to use public pipes |
| [14:22] | Zero Linden: | So we need to look at ways to build delgation and heirachy into the infrastructure - |
| [14:22] | Khamon Fate: | can i say pipes? |
| [14:22] | Zero Linden: | it is the only way to scale and have redudency |
| [14:22] | Willow Ranger: | why not give it an ipv6 address instead of an UUID and route to it... |
| [14:22] | Jarod Godel: | I thought people were the only trackable UUID's, SQUIDS then handled per-sim UUID locations. That's why we can't IM objects. |
| [14:22] | Zero Linden: | \Willow - |
| [14:22] | BinaryMe Remblai: | was the question covered already: Do the LSL dataserver calls for member status(on/off Line) follow the new restrictions? |
| [14:23] | Zero Linden: | remember that giving everything an IPv6 IP would still require that we route to it - if the IPs are allocated based on location, then either things can't move, or objects change names |
| [14:23] | Zero Linden: | this is why there is DNS |
| [14:24] | Jarod Godel: | You guys need to hire some Smalltalk hackers. Make everything a listening object. |
| [14:24] | Zero Linden: | on the grid objects move - not just because the object moves in SL space, but because we sometimes have to run the simulation on a different computer |
| [14:24] | Thermoriax Golding huffles... Atomic Fireball jawbreakers... Ahh... | |
| [14:25] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - I AM a Smalltalk hacker - I worked on Apple Smalltalk for Macintosh |
| [14:25] | Redd Nyle: | Oh! P@wned! |
| [14:25] | Jarod Godel: | Couldn't you use inhertience to solve the location problem? |
| [14:25] | Grey Nolder: | /ao on |
| [14:25] | Khamon Fate: | jarod are you saying to assign each object a listening port on the server? like a forked process? |
| [14:25] | Jarod Godel: | Like Java objects |
| [14:25] | Khamon Fate: | assigned it's own ipv6 designation? |
| [14:26] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - no, you need delegation, like DNS |
| [14:26] | BinaryMe Remblai: | Do you have a "what questions can be asked" guide? |
| [14:26] | Jarod Godel: | ala sub-domains? |
| [14:26] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - java objects don't live on a mesh of 5,000 CPUs... usually... |
| [14:26] | Grey Nolder: | /ao off |
| [14:26] | Zero Linden: | Binary Me - I don't |
| [14:26] | Zero Linden: | but this is a "techy-geeky-nerdo" office hour |
| [14:26] | Zha Ewry: | And.. if you do delegation, you end up having to decide how to not end up with a trail of obejcts behind, as your objects move, and when you can safely reap them |
| [14:27] | flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE! | |
| [14:27] | Zero Linden: | which - by the way all, is almost at a close |
| [14:27] | Jarod Godel: | I didn't mean the actual objects, just the naming scheme. Sub-domains works just as well. |
| [14:27] | Khamon Fate: | but aren't we trying to move away for object having to rely on a mesh of 5kCPUs and toward a model where prims rely on local asset management? |
| [14:27] | Zero Linden: | Zha - I meant delegation of authority to know where something is |
| [14:27] | Zero Linden: | rather than delgation as in the chain of forwarders sense |
| [14:27] | Tree Kyomoon: | thanks for taking the time Zero, really appreciated |
| [14:27] | Zha Ewry: | Errm. |
| [14:27] | Zha Ewry: | Ok. |
| [14:27] | Thermoriax Golding: | Well... most of the internet isn't planned to support a growing, evolving virtual world, either... |
| [14:27] | Zero Linden: | pitty that Computer Science is getting big enough now that we have over lap in use of terms! |
| [14:27] | Khamon Fate: | this is why virtual worlds need our own root servers |
| [14:27] | Zha Ewry: | Even there, you'll still have delegations chasing, but less so |
| [14:27] | Thermoriax Golding: | Things have to adapt, to grow... |
| [14:28] | Jarod Godel: | Nah. Everything's just a database when you get down to it. |
| [14:28] | Zero Linden: | Zha - yes - |
| [14:28] | Zero Linden: | it seems a messy problem no matter how we solve it, really |
| [14:28] | Zha Ewry: | Yes, thanks Zero, and we'll be back with more questinos, once we've read the transcript (regular office hours :-) |
| [14:28] | Everett Mills: | For large spectator events, would it be possible to have a read-only (view-only) view that could be scalably broadcast? |
| [14:28] | Zero Linden: | thank you all for coming |
| [14:28] | Thermoriax Golding: | The RL universe seems to be a Holographic DB in many ways... |
| [14:28] | BinaryMe Remblai: | o god - why did I think you would have a clue? |
| [14:28] | Jarod Godel: | I think the object+dns idea is rather elegant. |
| [14:29] | Vitis Obviate: | ty Zero -- useful and interesting |
| [14:29] | BinaryMe Remblai: | Back to lovely Blanda. |
| [14:29] | Khamon Fate: | thank you zero, see you next timea |
| [14:29] | Dimitrio Lewis: | Thank you, Zero! It's been educational. |
| [14:29] | Soft Noel: | ty Zero :) |
| [14:29] | Nobody Fugazi: | thanks Zero... quick thought... UUID...land... communication. |
| [14:29] | Nobody Fugazi: | have fun ;-D |
| [14:29] | Fremont Cunningham: | Everett - I did that in the early days of TH meets - few watched the relay. Was not worth the effort. |
| [14:30] | Redd Nyle: | Zero, thanks for taking the time to talk with the community. I hope other Lindens follow your lead. |
| [14:30] | Fremont Cunningham: | Thanks Muchly Zero... I look forward to more enlightenment sessions :) |
| [14:30] | Zero Linden: | Quick - someone grab an island named "UUID Land"... |
| [14:31] | Thermoriax Golding: | I just want a simple protocol to message information from script/ prim/ sim boundaries... |
| [14:31] | Jarod Godel: | Zero, do you use Squeak? |
| [14:32] | Zero Linden: | Jarod - Squeak is a distant grandchild of the Smalltalk I worked on at Apple - some of my code is still in there! |
| [14:32] | Jarod Godel: | Ah, well, my compliments to your work. |