User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 19

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:34] Tree Kyomoon: hello folks!
[7:34] Zha Ewry: And there he is...
[7:34] Zha Ewry: Morning Zero
[7:34] Dr Scofield: hi tree, hi zero
[7:34] Zero Linden: Good morning all
[7:34] Zha Ewry glances at Zero's tag.. and wonders about the message there
[7:34] Wyn Galbraith: There he is, must have been a line at the coffee pot
[7:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Morning Zero
[7:35] Zero Linden: Actually - I was making the first pot - I'm the first one in
[7:35] Tree Kyomoon: morning NaN
[7:35] Dr Scofield: msg lib army ... lol
[7:35] Wyn Galbraith: That takes time, I've done that myself.
[7:35] Zero Linden: and it's still brewing - so I'm a little edgy until that first warm mug is in my hands
[7:35] Zha Ewry nods in deep sympathy
[7:35] Wyn Galbraith hasn't started her coffee yet.
[7:35] Dr Scofield is just brewing the 3rd cup of tea this afternoon
[7:35] Tree Kyomoon: your eyes seem much bulgier than usual
[7:35] Zha Ewry: Happy Adicts, all of us ;-)
[7:36] Ryozu Yamamoto just drug himself from bed after only 1-1/2 of sleep: I know how that is
[7:36] Tree Kyomoon: is that the lack of coffee?
[7:36] Ryozu Yamamoto: hours, gah
[7:36] Wyn Galbraith is still in bed
[7:36] Zero Linden: The title? Well.... Message Liberation is just the start of the process... then there is working with devs to re-concieve each of their changes as one that can be forward and backward compatible
[7:36] Zha Ewry: Zero, is any traffic actually flowing over the new framework yet? (And is there going to be anyway to tell?)
[7:36] Wyn Galbraith just dragged the laptop over here.
[7:36] Saijanai Kuhn is an Amrit Kalash fan. Expensive as hades, but prevents cancer too...
[7:37] Zero Linden: well - there is a file, messages.xml in your viewer that will indicate what messages your viewer will send via TCP
[7:37] Tree Kyomoon: we just use old fashioned blueberries here in nova scotia
[7:37] Dr Scofield: ah, interesting
[7:37] Dr Scofield takes a look at her viewer
[7:38] Zero Linden: er, message.xml
[7:38] Zero Linden: and there is a similar file on the simulator hosts
[7:38] Zha Ewry nods
[7:38] Dr Scofield: in app_settings, right?
[7:38] Benja Kepler: where is that, zero?
[7:38] Benja Kepler: oh
[7:38] Zero Linden: EstablishAgentCommunication, ChatterBoxSessionStartReply, ChatterBoxSessionEventReply, ForceCloseChatterBoxSession, etc...
[7:38] Zero Linden: all use the new framework
[7:38] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'm guessing the sim wouldn't be too thrilled with someone tinkering with the message.xml file =D
[7:39] Zero Linden: yes
[7:39] Zero Linden: so - not much
[7:39] Zero Linden: Ryozu - no, it wouldn't mind at all
[7:39] Zero Linden: we've run a grid with almost all messages set to TCP
[7:39] Dr Scofield: is that all of those that have the boolean flag set to true?
[7:40] Dr Scofield: and?
[7:40] Tree Kyomoon: C:\Program Files\SecondLife\app_settings
[7:40] Zero Linden: or rather "flavor: llsd" is the actual designations
[7:40] Benja Kepler: thanks, Tree
[7:40] Zero Linden: and it runs -
[7:40] Zero Linden: we wouldn't have shipped it otherwise
[7:40] Benja Kepler: how do you manage all these XML files?
[7:41] Wyn Galbraith: Carefully
[7:41] Zero Linden: the point is that any message can be moved to LLSD/TCP as needed when a dev wants to change or extend its functionality
[7:41] Zha Ewry: At this point, given the open source client, the sims have to assume that every client is wonky
[7:41] Dr Scofield: how well did it work?
[7:41] Zero Linden: There are few messages that are rather tied to the UCP semantics and those we must leave as UDP
[7:41] Dr Scofield: compared to the normal settings?
[7:41] Zha Ewry: So. they have to at least cope with things like this. At ;least fail well
[7:41] Wyn Galbraith doesn't care if it's wonky as long as there's chocolate.
[7:42] Zha Ewry: When you say UDP semantics, which part of it do you mean?
[7:42] Zero Linden: compared to the normal settings, there wasn't much noticable difference -
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: willy wonky?
[7:42] Zero Linden: the traffice goes up a bit, due to the XML encoding and HTTP based transport
[7:42] Zero Linden: but between sim and viewer its SSL, so compressed
[7:42] Wyn Galbraith is headache, tends to make silly references when in headache mode.
[7:43] Dr Scofield wonders whether it would help over her on the other side of the norht atlantic
[7:43] Zero Linden: and between sims, the extra bandwidth isn't that much since the amount of chatter between sims is low
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: zero does this have anything to do with llHTTPRequest?
[7:43] Zero Linden: Tree - None whatsoever
[7:43] Dr Scofield: the more hops you have the less reliable UDP tends to get
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: are there scripts to get to the tcp communication from the client?
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: via lsl
[7:44] Dr Scofield: etherape is your friend ;-)
[7:44] Zero Linden holds that first cup....
[7:45] Dr Scofield: could one modify message.xml to use only TCP and still connect?
[7:45] Zero Linden: Tree - I'm not sure what you mean
[7:45] Wyn Galbraith ponders idling long enough to go make some coffee herself.
[7:45] Zero Linden: Dr. yes, though you'd be only changing your communications to the sim, the the return
[7:45] Tree Kyomoon: just trying to get lower level communcation from the client to other websites/pages from LSL
[7:45] Wyn Galbraith: Does the lib of messages also include the conversations sims have bordering sims?
[7:46] Zero Linden: Benja - you asked about file managment - right now we use dsh and rsync as a means of moving release file sets to the 3k+ machines
[7:46] Dr Scofield: the return path would still be UDP?
[7:46] Dr Scofield: sugar
[7:46] Zha Ewry: Ah.. So... you can be totally disjoint?
[7:46] Zha Ewry: TCP in and UDP back?
[7:46] Zero Linden: There has been talk about making the machines fetch those files via HTTP .... pull vs. push the images
[7:46] Zero Linden: Actually, now that I am waking up....
[7:47] Zero Linden: In HetGrid, each simulator host wakes up
[7:47] Zero Linden: asks the "coordinator" - "hey, I'm here, what should I be doing"
[7:47] Zero Linden: the coordinator says "First, make sure you've got version Foo, then run Region Bar..."
[7:48] Pilgrim Dagger: Does that exchange happen over HTTP?
[7:48] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[7:48] Zha Ewry: So, is the coordinator a single machine or a service or?
[7:48] Benja Kepler: Zero: thx - how do you manage the content of all these XML files?
[7:49] Zero Linden: Zha - yes - because the message semantics, at the common protocol layer, are just messages with no repsonses or only confirmation -
[7:49] Zero Linden: and we made confirmation work even if the confirmation comes via a different channel
[7:49] Dr Scofield: pity, that one cannot swtch to TCP just by modding the message.xml file
[7:49] Zero Linden: well - wait - strike that - if you send a message via UDP, the confimration will come back via UDP - even if you are on a TCP only sending side
[7:50] Zero Linden: that is because we can't get rid of the UDP stuff entirely - just vastly
[7:50] Zero Linden: at least for the short term
[7:50] Zero Linden: Benja - there is a set of important XML config files -- they are considered part of the release, and so are in the source code tree
[7:50] Dr Scofield: if the sim sends a UDP msg to the client, the client will send back a UDP response even if it TCP only?
[7:50] Dr Scofield: that's what you meant?
[7:50] Saijanai Kuhn wonders if there are any P2P plans for the client in the fure, longterm or short
[7:51] Saijanai Kuhn: future*
[7:51] Zero Linden: for message.xml, this is a good fit -- -but for the blacklist.xml file, it isn't - since that file must get updated everytime we battle an attack on the grid
[7:51] Zha Ewry: Zeor, what part of the UDP semanics are you depending on?
[7:51] Zero Linden: which means that the grid monkey must be checking files into the source tree all week long
[7:51] Dr Scofield guesses the getting lost one
[7:52] Zero Linden: There are a few messages that relied on the inherit UDP semantics and operation of our UDP based ack. to throttle their own opreation
[7:52] Zha Ewry cringes
[7:53] Zero Linden: so when you switch them to TCP (which sort of, auto-ack)
[7:53] Zero Linden: they flood the system
[7:53] Zha Ewry nods
[7:53] Dr Scofield: hmph
[7:53] Zero Linden: If one were sending only one kind of thing down the pipe - that might have been reasonable - but when it got to many different things,
[7:53] Zha Ewry: Sounds like time for Zero to go put on the black robes and play ninja on those
[7:53] Zero Linden: there is all this code to manage the throttling between them (see LLThrottleGroup)
[7:53] Dr Scofield: yep
[7:55] Dr Scofield: question (unrelated): can it happen, when retrieving group member lists, that one does not get all group members?
[7:55] Zero Linden: Since the biggest reason for the Msg. Lib. was to enable evolution of messages with backward compatibility, it isn't a prioirty to beat those older messages in ine
[7:56] Zha Ewry looks thoughtful
[7:56] Zero Linden: most will probably just be replaced over time with newer subsystems - image packets are a good example - that whole message gets depricated and replaced with textures via HTTP
[7:56] Dr Scofield: for example, SL says that there are X members in the grop but it turns out taht there are in reality X + !
[7:56] Zha Ewry: In the short term, maybe, but I assume you would like to get the old forms out as soon as possible
[7:57] Zero Linden: Zha - I don't know - object update has been very highly tuned and doesn't seem to be a problem - other than any UDP being a problem - so I don't know if that is high on the list to change
[7:57] Zero Linden: Dr. S.: I suppose yes
[7:57] Zero Linden: we do now fetch the group list info in batches
[7:57] Zero Linden: and any batch could fail -
[7:57] Zero Linden: I dno't konw the specifics of that code
[7:58] Zero Linden: also - there is a sync. issue - when do you start fetching the list vs. otherr people joining / leaving
[7:58] Zero Linden: truth is relative!
[7:58] Dr Scofield: ok...that would explain some of the cases we have observed with large groups
[7:58] Zha Ewry nods "But, long term, you're going to end up having to maintain the UDP throtekling and acking, and such,until you get them all weaned off"
[7:59] Dr Scofield: nah, it was people that were ancient members of the group, which we didn't see
[7:59] Zero Linden: Zha - my guess is that a year from now - only the stuff that actually has UDP like semantics will be left - the stuff that we prefer to drop packets rather than garuntee all deleverly
[7:59] Dr Scofield: just wanted to check, thx
[8:00] Zero Linden: and then at some point, someone will go in an make TCP be a viable choice for those as well, and we'll give users the option for those that are in UDP restricted environments
[8:00] Zha Ewry: Hmm... Where you want to drop packets, because you'd rather retry...
[8:00] Zha Ewry: than get the late packet?
[8:00] Saijanai Kuhn: could you give examples of preferable UDP stuff?
[8:00] Dr Scofield: movement updates?
[8:00] Zero Linden: Right - when you are holding down the up-arrow key, sending "walk forward" a zillion times - we don't need to get 'em all
[8:01] Saijanai Kuhn: or even want to...
[8:01] Zero Linden: better to drop some than lock up the stream
[8:01] Zha Ewry nods.. Hmm.
[8:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: Heh ;)
[8:01] Zha Ewry: Of course, you can do some things to merge them.. into sets, or such.. but sure
[8:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: Though iirc, you only send a key upand key down packet
[8:01] Zero Linden: Object updates from the sim, for an object that is moving, samething - better to drop one and just get the latest than stall the stream of messages
[8:01] Zero Linden: for TCP retry
[8:02] Tree Kyomoon: would be good if the movement commands could be locally acted upon at least for the clients avatar
[8:02] Pilgrim Dagger: What happens if you drop the key up packet?
[8:02] Dr Scofield: you keep on walking
[8:02] Tree Kyomoon: immediately instead of waiting for the server to respond before moving forward
[8:02] Zero Linden: Ryozu - I'm not sure about that - either way, frankly,
[8:02] Zha Ewry: Well, they are tree.. Thus the bounce back
[8:02] Ryozu Yamamoto: I do know it's a bitflag toggle either way
[8:02] Zha Ewry: When the sim suddenly puts you back
[8:02] Tree Kyomoon: ahh right
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: but then, why the delay
[8:03] Zha Ewry loves when she starts floating through walls
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: when you hit the up arrow key and just sit ther enot moving for a while?
[8:03] Dr Scofield: timeout to detect that key up is missing
[8:03] Zero Linden: That is important, alas, for things being smooth - there are systems like avatar movement, whre the viewer guesses what the answer will be
[8:03] Zero Linden: rather than wat for the sim
[8:03] Zero Linden: it would be a poor experience otherwise
[8:03] Tree Kyomoon: I pretty much park my avatar and move around with my cam because the avatar movement is too slow and jerky
[8:04] Ryozu Yamamoto: Interpolation, movement prediction. That's clientside.
[8:04] Zha Ewry: Right.. If you don't do that, every thing becomes really slow and erratic
[8:04] Benja Kepler: would that affect animations, like dances, or is that server-side only?
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: which is too bad, would be better if there was a bit of delay for others on my movement, rather than me seeing delay in my own movement
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: zero how much data is passed when avatars move around bit wise?
[8:06] Zero Linden: Er, Tree? that is how it is - we don't delay what you see, but others will have to wait until the sim gets it and redistributes it
[8:06] Zero Linden: Benja - animations are entirely viewer side
[8:06] Zero Linden: though - I don't know the specifics of how we get them sync'd - like for dances
[8:06] Benja Kepler: thx
[8:07] Zha Ewry: Also why you get off things like one ave sitting, the other moving in paired sets
[8:07] Zha Ewry: And.. alas, like many things in the client, there seems to be no way to say 'Hey, try to reset all the animation states"
[8:07] Zero Linden: So - the first iteration of Heterogenous Grid goes to testing this week
[8:07] Dr Scofield: nice
[8:08] Tree Kyomoon: like, if I were to stand up and move forward 1 meter, how much data has to be passed in bits to all the other clients?
[8:08] Zha Ewry: That being the first sime running a different version of the sim code?
[8:08] Zero Linden: When it ships, you won't see much - becuase it will mostly be used for putting up early tests of upcoming releases on Linden private sims on the mainland
[8:08] Zero Linden: er main grid
[8:08] Zero Linden: not mainland
[8:08] Zero Linden: (no panics, please)
[8:08] Wyn Galbraith always seems that one step is more than one meter.
[8:09] Zero Linden: Wyn - you'd be amazed at how much the choice of walking animation affects the perception of distance and speed walked - despite it being a constant!
[8:09] Dr Scofield: hetgrid - is that just the sims or does that also include stuff like the asset servers et al
[8:09] Zero Linden: Dr. - Technically, the simulator hosts
[8:09] Wyn Galbraith: Ah so it's my walk that's doing it ;)
[8:09] Saijanai Kuhn: I note that the beta grid was not available yesterday. Is HetGrid up on teh beta?
[8:09] Zha Ewry: Zero... If you're looking for load..and testers who are willing to be brave... sing out.. I'd be glad to recruit some
[8:09] Zero Linden: so all the central stuff is exempted: DBs and Asset system
[8:10] Zero Linden: but we don't change those much
[8:10] Wyn Galbraith has to dump her sexy walk for newbie default
[8:10] Zero Linden: Zha - that's the second iteration: where we first put out
[8:10] Zero Linden: regions for public trial, then when ready
[8:10] Dr Scofield: but eventually you'll also have het DBs and asset servers, right?
[8:10] Benja Kepler: and Mono? Is MonoIsland in Beta?
[8:10] Tao Takashi: Hi
[8:10] Zero Linden: deploy first, say 100 regions, then the next day 1000, and the third day - all of 'em
[8:10] Saijanai Kuhn wants to be an early beta tester
[8:10] Wyn Galbraith: Hello Tao
[8:11] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:11] Glitch Braess: Hi Tao.
[8:11] Dr Scofield: hi tao
[8:11] Wyn Galbraith is brave.
[8:11] Zero Linden: Benja - Mono will be one of the first projects to make extensive use of the HetGrid system
[8:11] Zha Ewry nods "If you want some stress testers, between the private and the first public.. "
[8:11] Benja Kepler: excellent!
[8:11] Zero Linden: In fact, it is the driving use case - as it brings up the hardest issues with it
[8:11] Zha Ewry shrugs "that might be useful"
[8:12] Dr Scofield: what are the issues?
[8:12] Zero Linden: So the question is - when flying between regions - we have some code now that pops up a window when you cross a version boundary
[8:12] Zero Linden: but what do you want to see or not see when living in a het-grid world?
[8:12] Zha Ewry nods "Says, 'boojums here?'"
[8:12] Wyn Galbraith thinks sim borders are magical.
[8:13] Zha Ewry: I certainly want to be able to turn such messages on and off in terms of how intrusive they are
[8:13] Zero Linden: Remember that sometimes you'll be entering a rgion that has last weeks build, then flying over to another region with this weeks -- both release,
[8:13] Wyn Galbraith tries to hit the fast for the rush.
[8:13] Dr Scofield would not really use "magical" to describe sim borders
[8:13] Tao Takashi: so don't forget to specify the region in a bug report ;)
[8:13] Zero Linden: We expect to do such deploys geographically - so most just walking around won't trigger it - but of course TP'ing will
[8:14] Wyn Galbraith: When they stick you hair to your butt after passing a sim border, that's magical
[8:14] Tao Takashi likes when suddenly boats pass by :)
[8:14] Zha Ewry: I'd think for real user risk, something like changing the window top bar, or adding a some other low key visual cue all the time would be nice
[8:14] Zero Linden: Tao - I know, we were just trying to figure out yesterday if we can get the support ticket system to pick up the version of the region you are reporting about
[8:14] Zha Ewry: But.. I don't want to keep having to dismiss dialog boxes
[8:14] Wyn Galbraith loves the snapback effet too.
[8:14] Wyn Galbraith: *effet
[8:14] Saijanai Kuhn thinks that immersion is the best option: make the alert a part of the user experience, rather than simply Yet Another Dialog Box
[8:14] Dr Scofield: if you are moving inot a really old sim, the viewer could switch to B&W
[8:14] Wyn Galbraith: *effect (need coffee can't spell)
[8:14] Zero Linden: Sad - answer is probably no (due to where the support site is run vs. the grid operations)
[8:15] Tree Kyomoon: B&W sims...hahahah welcome to pleasant ville!
[8:15] Zha Ewry nods
[8:15] Wyn Galbraith: That's an interesting idea Tree.
[8:15] Zero Linden: Gee - that reminds me - has everyone seen Robbie Dingo's latest video?
[8:15] Wyn Galbraith: Shades of Grey Sim.
[8:15] Dr Scofield: nope
[8:15] Zha Ewry: and no matter what.. Make it all such that we can turn it off easily.
[8:15] Tao Takashi: don't think so but if he made a new one I should :)
[8:16] Zero Linden: http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/
[8:16] Wyn Galbraith hasn't seen it Zero.
[8:16] Zero Linden: So worth it
[8:16] Tree Kyomoon: would be neat to have more control over the rendering in the viewer, like switch to cartoon, b&w or whatever
[8:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Wants sketched landscapes ala the film that TOrey promoted this morning
[8:16] Zero Linden: er - don't read the text - it spoils it too much in my mind
[8:16] Saijanai Kuhn: yep
[8:16] Benja Kepler: oh! it's great
[8:16] Benja Kepler: (the vid)
[8:16] Zero Linden: just scroll down to the video
[8:16] Zero Linden: and watch
[8:17] Dr Scofield: ta!
[8:17] Saijanai Kuhn: I posted a reference to the CG Society forums this morning. The CG equivlant of SLash-dotting
[8:17] Zha Ewry wonders how many of use are hitting the server
[8:17] Zero Linden: oh - and listen, he is a musican
[8:17] Tao Takashi: it's blip.tv so many people do hit the server anyway ;-)
[8:18] Ryozu Yamamoto: Zero: More of a policy question really, but you might have some insight into it: As far as Het Grid is concerned, how much effort/concern is there with the devs keeping things at least moderatly consistent?
[8:18] Zero Linden: oh - he didn't do the music to this one...
[8:18] Zero Linden: Ryozu - not sure what you're driving at -
[8:18] Saijanai Kuhn: was going to say, that's a fmous song in its own right...
[8:18] Dr Scofield: na, don't think so ;-)
[8:18] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'd rather kind of hope having publicly accessible different versioned sims would be a rare thing. I'm already pretty concerned with the idea of different client versions running arounda ll the time
[8:18] Zero Linden: but, we move things in very small increments, really
[8:19] Tree Kyomoon: can I ask a dumb question? Does MONO have arrays and objects in it?
[8:19] Zha Ewry: Mono is a runtime
[8:19] Zha Ewry: The question is what changes in the front end
[8:19] Saijanai Kuhn: java VM, er, C# VM
[8:19] Benja Kepler: or even VB.NET
[8:19] Zha Ewry: There should be zero change in the language at first
[8:19] Zero Linden: Ryozu - I imagine that initially, once every two to four weeks we'll release a new version, just as we do now, only for a few days, the grid will be mixed
[8:19] Zero Linden: preview and current version together
[8:20] Zero Linden: our version updates are rarely that monumental..... so should create a farily consistent experience
[8:20] Zero Linden: however
[8:20] Zero Linden: in the not so distant future, we'll be allowing estate managers to choose when, and if, to update their regions
[8:20] Ryozu Yamamoto: Consistency, that's the word I was looking for
[8:20] Zero Linden: and so you may find estates that choose to stay down rev --
[8:20] Wyn Galbraith wows at the video.
[8:21] Saijanai Kuhn contemplatest moon-walk sims using new phyics...
[8:21] Tree Kyomoon: new physics?
[8:21] Tree Kyomoon: is that what this is about?
[8:21] Zero Linden: But really, we don't do things like New Moon Physics! Ray Traced Trees! New Lava Object Type!
[8:21] Zero Linden: that often
[8:21] Zha Ewry: Zero, I assume, that at first, for Mono, LSL doesn't chnage at all, just use the monmo runtime?
[8:21] Ryozu Yamamoto: I assume that's aside from required updates? I'd hate to see a sim owner being able to choose to stay with a sim version in order to exploit a bug or some such
[8:22] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hmmmmm, New Moon Physics would be tastey =D
[8:22] Zero Linden: Zha / Tree - yes, the MONO VM does support both arrays and objects - but at first, we are just compiling LSL to it
[8:22] Zha Ewry nods
[8:22] Zero Linden: so - same annoying language, just new faster implementation
[8:22] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hehe
[8:22] Zha Ewry: Well, that's what I'd do
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: ah ok.
[8:22] Zha Ewry: Get the existing stuff fully debugged and tested
[8:22] Zha Ewry: before adding in new exploitation
[8:22] Zero Linden: Eventualy, MONO opens up the possibility of doing things like comping Python
[8:22] Zero Linden: but that is down the road a wayas
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: adding arrays and objects to LSL will change a lot in world
[8:23] Tao Takashi: replacing LSL would, too ;-)
[8:23] Zha Ewry: Tree, you might well be better off just using a new language
[8:23] Zha Ewry: grafting on objects to languages tends to be messy
[8:23] Zero Linden: If I had to bet (and this is really crystal ball gazing right now) I'd expect that we'd do the work to support an existing language sooner than we'd do the work to extend LSL to new places
[8:23] Zha Ewry recalls the first five iterations of C++
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: ah
[8:23] Zero Linden: even if, were I retired and had nothing else to do, I'd love to do nothing more than make LSL3
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: so I could program in JAVA and implement via mono in SL?
[8:24] Zero Linden recalls those proto-languages as well!
[8:24] Zha Ewry: In theory, the mono runtime wouuld permit lots of languages
[8:24] Zero Linden: Well, Tree, I don't know if there is a Java to MONO compiler
[8:24] Zha Ewry: In practice, there are some really hard issues there
[8:24] Zha Ewry: How much bytecode level stuff do you want to allow in from outside?
[8:24] Zero Linden: there is one for C# (obviously - that is waht the CRI VM spec was made for) and one for Python
[8:25] Wyn Galbraith hears voices.
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: would be best if all this was integrated into a client....mabey ADOBE could make a special "authoring " client for SL that included all these tools
[8:25] Wyn Galbraith: For the speakers I have no voice.
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: and a nice sculpty maker
[8:25] Zero Linden: None -really - we will be moving to doing all the compiling on our side
[8:25] Tree Kyomoon: Id pay big bucks for that
[8:25] Zha Ewry nods
[8:25] Zero Linden: makes things MUCH easier - don't have to do bytecode verification
[8:25] Zero Linden: which is hard
[8:26] Zero Linden: and we have to modify each langague a bit to work within our environment
[8:26] Zha Ewry: Well, NP hard, and halting equivalent..
[8:26] Zero Linden: for example, Python doesn't have events...
[8:26] Tao Takashi heard the talk about IronPython at EuroPython
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: python doesnt have events? wow I had no idea, thats weird
[8:26] Zero Linden: so we have to figure out a way to do dthat (registered handlers is an option, but ugly for such an integral part of the system)
[8:26] Tao Takashi: but it was somehow more about ASP and in general some microsoft advertising talk
[8:26] Zha Ewry: Events are pretty uncommon
[8:26] Tao Takashi: callbacks?
[8:27] Tao Takashi: which language has events actually?
[8:27] Tao Takashi: and what do events mean in a language?
[8:27] Dr Scofield: C#
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: actionscript has events
[8:27] Benja Kepler: Zero, didn't Babbage do a video on Mono once? do you know the url for it?
[8:27] Zha Ewry: Events, as core language features, are probably only in about 10-120% of languages mostly recent ones
[8:27] Rex Cronon: java
[8:27] Zero Linden: Benja - I don't know the URL
[8:27] Tao Takashi: but aren't these just callbacks then?
[8:27] Benja Kepler: ok
[8:27] Zha Ewry: And.. even in those.. They are kind of awkward, often
[8:27] Wyn Galbraith notes having voice on adds different layers of conversation.
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: whats the difference between callbacks and events?
[8:27] Dr Scofield: tao, ues
[8:27] Dr Scofield: yes
[8:28] Tao Takashi: zope3 has events ;-)
[8:28] Rex Cronon: event in java are not awkward
[8:28] Zero Linden: Tree - not much
[8:28] Tao Takashi: but they are implemented as callbacks basically
[8:28] Benja Kepler: oh, I found it - it's on Microsoft's website
[8:28] Benja Kepler: http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/4/1/94138e2a-d9dc-435a-9240-bcd985bf5bd7/Jim-Cory-SecondLife.wmv
[8:28] Zero Linden: Though the system of switching between sets of them (states in LSL) is rather useful, but not in many languages
[8:28] Benja Kepler: I remember it explaining the LSL / MONO
[8:28] Dr Scofield: events will be delivered to all subscribers
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: theres a microsoft big wig coming to SL very soon
[8:29] Zero Linden: Tao - there can be, in richer languages than LSL, some subtle issues of scoping
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: to speak on vb island
[8:29] Zero Linden: and "callbacks" implies a particular set answers to those questions, where as the more general term events can admit several designs
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: "Join us for a special speaking event! Jon Erickson, long time editor for Dr. Dobb's Journal will be here in the Microsoft Island Theater on Thursday, July 29th, 4 PM SLT."
[8:29] Zero Linden: of course, in LSL, with only globals and function locals - there is little difference
[8:30] Zha Ewry nods "One of the more annoying limits in LSL at the moment"
[8:30] Zero Linden: Well all - I have a 8:30am phone call... So I'm bowing out on the dot today
[8:30] Ryozu Yamamoto misses SLT
[8:30] Zero Linden: Thank you all for coming
[8:30] Zha Ewry: Thanks as always Zero...
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: thx zero
[8:30] Benja Kepler: tree: 29th is a Sunday?
[8:30] Pilgrim Dagger: Thanks for the info.
[8:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: Later Zero
[8:30] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
[8:30] Benja Kepler: thx Zero
[8:30] Zero Linden: This has been fun as always
[8:30] Dr Scofield: thx! was interesting!
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[8:30] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[8:30] Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D
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