User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Nov 01

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  • [7:35] Zero Linden: Good morning all
  • [7:35] Bakus Boccara: good morning
  • [7:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Good morning teacher
  • [7:35] Yakazuki Kohime: Morning
  • [7:35] Neas Bade: good morning
  • [7:35] Zha Ewry: Morning oh Arabic invention Linden
  • [7:35] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [7:35] Zero Linden: At least a more reasonable number this morning
  • [7:36] WarKirby Magojiro: can't see you through the crowd, Zero
  • [7:36] Squirrel Wood: Much more manageable ^^
  • [7:36] Zero Linden: I'm on the bean-bag like chair
  • [7:36] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I was about to say "Hey, that's a new look Zero" ... but it turned out to be Hypatia ;-)
  • [7:36] Hypatia Callisto:  :p
  • [7:37] Zero Linden: So - today's topic is the same as Tuesdays - as I wanted to make sure thatwe could
  • [7:37] Zero Linden: mkae that available for the most number of people
  • [7:37] Zero Linden: The topic is the scope of the AWG
  • [7:37] Zero Linden: and, as an added bonus for today
  • [7:37] Zero Linden: I'd like to discuss the first set of projects to do in Q4
  • [7:38] Zero Linden: Welcome to my opffice hourse
  • [7:38] Zero Linden: *hours
  • [7:38] Tao Takashi: great office horse :)
  • [7:38] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, office horse
  • [7:38] Esmayeeli Delphin: 1
  • [7:38] Zero Linden: Everything said here is said in public and will be posted to the wiki
  • [7:38] Zero Linden: So speak openly, speak freely, and speak in public.
  • [7:38] Tree Kyomoon: our office horse is trained to run the photocopier
  • [7:39] Tree Kyomoon: Zero we discussed splitting into finer discussion groups ... is that in the plans?
  • [7:39] Zero Linden: Well, I've always imagined that there will be various sub-groups within the AWG
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: looking at various aspects
  • [7:40] Tree Kyomoon: would you be willing to create the subheadings and even assign leadership?
  • [7:40] Zha Ewry: There's certainlyu been some self organizatoin in that direction already
  • [7:40] Morgaine Dinova: Self-organize
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: To that end , the concepts of the Viewpoint Advocacy Group seems reasonable
  • [7:41] Yakazuki Kohime: sry it lags so much
  • [7:41] Tao Takashi: still wondering if I should open up a group about assets in general (what is an asset or might be in the future, how can it be transferred, etc.)
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: But before we get into splitting up - let's make sure everyone knows about the focusing of scope of the AWG
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: Well, Tao, perhaps we can use that as an example
  • [7:42] Tao Takashi: well, I also think further than SL here though ;-) so it might not fit the scope
  • [7:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Current grouops: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: That's fine
  • [7:42] Vision Raymaker: hmmm
  • [7:42] Tao Takashi: but where it's stored is probably also important for the new architecture
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: Assets, in the context of opening up the SL Grid over the next two years, probably don't need to change much
  • [7:43] Tao Takashi: my main question is what actually gets transferred when I give soemthing to a friend or rez it on a sim
  • [7:43] Morgaine Dinova: But somebody should definitely be thinking about them, in the context of the wider distributed future.
  • [7:43] Zero Linden: They serve their purpose well, and aren't (mostly) an impediment to opening up and grid scaling
  • [7:43] Sloan Skjellerup: uncle, time to relog!
  • [7:43] Tao Takashi: copy or reference. but maybe we can postpone this to another meeting
  • [7:44] Zero Linden: Tao - I have some thoughts on that, but let's hold off for another meeting
  • [7:44] Tao Takashi: yep
  • [7:44] Zero Linden: But to continue assets as an example
  • [7:44] Wolt Amat: Assets are just one area, I think the entire list of areas of criteria needs to be drawn up first.
  • [7:44] Morgaine Dinova: Even better Tao, get some initial brainstorming down, so that people can think about it in advance of a meeting. Good ideas can get lost.
  • [7:45] Tao Takashi: sure
  • [7:45] Zha Ewry: Except in as much as they presume single flat name space, of assets at some level, which presumably gets sorted out in terms of eb services anyway. (Actually, that's UUIds, not assets per se)
  • [7:45] Tao Takashi: but I think I need to understand the existing model for that better at first
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: we probably need to do some work on the construct of assets just to make them open, but not much - URL interface, standardizing MIME types etc
  • [7:45] Tao Takashi: because there is a lot of knowledge in there already and I don'rt want to brainstorm in the wrong direction
  • [7:45] Zha Ewry: Zero, are you reading my mind again?
  • [7:46] Zero Linden: Well, Zha, with this much lag, I don't think so.... :-)
  • [7:46] Wolt Amat: Shall we brainstorm the list of areas of concern first?
  • [7:46] Saijanai Kuhn: he's been reading the wiki
  • [7:46] Morgaine Dinova: Zha .... what's that's wire trailing out of the back of your head? ;-)
  • [7:46] Zero Linden: Well, Wolt, my concern there is that it sounds like an open ended list of features
  • [7:46] Zero Linden: Rather than being driven from the need of making the protocol work in the open way
  • [7:47] Zero Linden: That said,
  • [7:47] Zha Ewry: No, no. The Blond hair is supposed to act as a detterent. Supposed to put up a nice "shoes, Pretty shoes" field around the technical thoughts.
  • [7:47] Tree Kyomoon: so you need to prioritize
  • [7:47] Wolt Amat: I am not proposing features, I am proposing a list of areas of criteria that will need to be met - Privacy, User Experience, Assets, etc.
  • [7:47] Zero Linden: we should have a list in the wiki of designs to resolve
  • [7:47] Zero Linden: Ah -
  • [7:47] Morgaine Dinova: Suggest that Tao and Wolt get together ;-)
  • [7:47] Tao Takashi: basically I want some example thoughts to brainstorm/discuss these :)
  • [7:47] Tao Takashi: best would be Zero's thoughts ;-)
  • [7:48] Wolt Amat: So we have something to measure and prioritize further work against.,
  • [7:48] Zha Ewry: There is a balancing act, Wolt (and Zero) in that we need to be sure that people see the broader set of topics being addressed, but we also need to keep focused, if Linden's going to be able to move at the pace they want to move. (Not that that doesn't say we can't run in parallel)
  • [7:48] Wolt Amat: I agree.
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: Well I see several work items from Meeting 1 that
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: need this kind of list drawn up
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: WORKITEM: list the requirements that the community needs of identity to have the policies it wants
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: WORKITEM: we need to list a set of agent rights (e.g. being able to leave a region)
  • [7:49] Saijanai Kuhn: please IM Tree Koymoon, me or Zha Ewry about an invite to the AW Groupies --the inworld group for the AWG
  • [7:49] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, agree with Zha. If thereis one thing this group has, it's a LOT of parallelism.
  • [7:49] Wolt Amat: By definition, LOL.
  • [7:50] Aria Eichel: quanta gente
  • [7:50] NaughtyMyke Checchinato: si
  • [7:50] Zero Linden: But I think our first, clear, objective measurable goal is this:
  • [7:50] Wolt Amat: Tao, could we pencil up an initial list of areas that need to be considered as a starting point for Work Item 1?
  • [7:51] Zero Linden: Interoperate with another region domain to the extent that one can login in directly to that region
  • [7:51] Zero Linden: and TP back and forth
  • [7:51] WarKirby Magojiro: What exactly is meant by a regon domain?
  • [7:51] Zero Linden: Beyond that - things like L$ and IM and groups and land, etc.... we can leave for the second goal
  • [7:52] Hypatia Callisto: A sim
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: last
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: slide 20
  • [7:52] Morgaine Dinova: Hold fire on open non-tech invites pls, we seem to have come across a problem yesterday. (Discuss later)
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: In this slide
  • [7:52] WarKirby Magojiro: We already have the ability to login to specific locations, and tp between sims, do we not?
  • [7:52] Hypatia Callisto: sims on other grids :)
  • [7:52] WarKirby Magojiro: I see
  • [7:53] Judah Thor: Hey!
  • [7:53] Zero Linden: A region domain is a set of regions operated by an organization
  • [7:53] Zero Linden: That organization may be different than Linden Lab
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: Those regions, as a set, manage and negotiate trust, security and capabilities with the agent domains that represent the agents that wish to enter those regions
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: So look at the left slide board behind me
  • [7:54] WarKirby Magojiro: is looking
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: The Green boxes are the region domains
  • [7:54] Rex Cronon: does region equal sima?
  • [7:54] Morgaine Dinova: Hang on, I thought the common factor in the elements of a region domain was locality. If it's organization then there is no point in having an Org Domain.
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: Some are run by Linden Lab
  • [7:54] Rex Cronon: sim*
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: Some may be run by others
  • [7:55] Wyn Galbraith: So make a list of what an agent needs to pass from sim to sim within SL first and then see how that applies to moving from region to region (or sim) outside of SL?
  • [7:55] Zha Ewry: Orthogonal Morgaine
  • [7:55] Tao Takashi: a region is sort of a sim, some functionality might be moved to the agent domains though
  • [7:55] Zha Ewry: Locality is one reason to group, Trust is another,
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: Well - in actuallity
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: we beleive that a region domain encompases both
  • [7:56] Morgaine Dinova: Sure, but which one is the gruper in Reg Doms? Can't be the intersection
  • [7:56] Zha Ewry: And.. depending on exactly how we define membership, you can do some very interesting things
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: 1) a region domain is ultimately accountable to a single operator organization
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: 2) a region domain spans a contiguous area of the map
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: Note that 1 doesn't preclude there still be individual parcel owners, or even estate owners with parcel owners within
  • [7:57] Morgaine Dinova:  ??? Whatever does land adjacency have to do with region domains? Mixing up an awful lot of issues there.
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: So, for example, the whole set of regions right now would be a single region domain where the operator organization is Linden Lab
  • [7:58] Saijanai Kuhn: makes it easier to coordinate the map coordinates I guess
  • [7:58] Zero Linden: Land adjacency is disallowed becasue there is a huge amount of trust that directly adjacent regions must have with each other
  • [7:58] Tao Takashi: so the regions of another region domain are somewhere on the map or not?
  • [7:58] Tao Takashi: or at some completely other area?
  • [7:58] Zha Ewry: nods at Morgaine. Not sure I see the need to conflate that hard
  • [7:59] Zero Linden: and we don't think that at this stage we know how to do that split across trust domaines
  • [7:59] Zha Ewry: Easy to say adjancy requires trust
  • [7:59] WarKirby Magojiro: Will the location of region Domains on the map be static ?
  • [7:59] Zha Ewry: Not sure that you need to over force it tho.
  • [7:59] Morgaine Dinova: Decouple concerns, or you will have massive problems ahead. Not the least of them being scalability.
  • [7:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Per haps we can all agree a "for now' applies to this...
  • [7:59] Hypatia Callisto: if I understand correctly, a region domain is another grid, so technically, I would expect it to have its own "map" separate from another grid.
  • [8:00] Wolt Amat: Is sharing a single world map a requirement?
  • [8:00] Zha Ewry: Over baking assumptions like that, is very hard to unbake
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: Right now, in the protocols, the region you are in is allowed to basically negotiate your trust, and visibility into the other regions you can see into
  • [8:00] Tao Takashi: Hypatia: not sure about that but it would make things easier ;-)
  • [8:00] Tao Takashi: I still would like to drive/walk/fly from grid A to B
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: Zha, true enough, but frankly, we haven't see a great need for not baking that assumption
  • [8:00] Tao Takashi: make it planets ;-)
  • [8:00] Saijanai Kuhn: I believe the LL proposal is to use a 64-bit map coordinate
  • [8:00] Wolt Amat: Could each organization's "world" be a "plane" or "dimension"?
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: for example, we enforce this with estates today - and really, it isn't an issue
  • [8:01] Rex Cronon: why not solar systems?
  • [8:01] Wyn Galbraith: Why not Space?
  • [8:01] WarKirby Magojiro: Estaes aeallowed to be adjacentwith consent of all parties though, are they not?
  • [8:01] Tao Takashi: yes
  • [8:01] Hypatia Callisto: if you have planets, the shape of a sim is going to change :)
  • [8:01] Zero Linden: Okay, see - here is where we are perhaps veering off course
  • [8:01] Wolt Amat: Who said planets have to be spherical?
  • [8:01] Zha Ewry: The assumption, for the near term
  • [8:01] Wyn Galbraith: So agents will need a suitcase of assets that are transferable to non-SL regions.
  • [8:02] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: I accept the "for now" aspect, just not that it's the end goal. Server locality, land-mass adjacency, operator, and owner are really quite distinct issues.
  • [8:02] Wolt Amat: Maybe one organization may want to build a ring world.
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: is that we're not going to try to break the whole set of assumptions
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: That Linden has
  • [8:02] Zero Linden: While I'm not doubting that we can imagine virtual worlds with hyperbolic space
  • [8:02] Tao Takashi: Wyn: and here is where my question comes in: how does that actually work ;-) if we still have asset servers somewhere and we just link to them then it might be problematic (eventually)
  • [8:02] Zero Linden: I need to get this nice flat world bigger in the next two years :-)
  • [8:03] Wolt Amat: You will need three main sets of user profile infpormation -
  • [8:03] WarKirby Magojiro: Why does an agent need to "carry around" anything more than a reference key for the asst server ?
  • [8:03] Tao Takashi: simply stack the region domains, we only use 2 dimensions of the map right now ;-)
  • [8:03] Morgaine Dinova: If Tillie were here, she'd run a GLaDOS sound from Portal at this point ;-)))
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: Agents need inventory
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: Agents need L$ balances
  • [8:03] Wolt Amat: That which is owned by the user, that which is owned by a single org, and that which is shared between orgs.
  • [8:03] Zha Ewry: That's a base assumption Zero. I don't think most people are assuming it isn't. If they are, we need to clear that up
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: Agents need group memebrship
  • [8:03] Wyn Galbraith: That's a good question Tao, or each agent carries data reserved for elseVR.
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: Agents need friends and profiles....
  • [8:03] Hypatia Callisto: agents need their avatars, too :)
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: These things will be homed in the agent domain that manages your account
  • [8:03] Tao Takashi: and Agents need an identity
  • [8:03] Tree Kyomoon: I thik OpenSIm will be working on a more dimentional simulator anyway, so LInden can focus on the other issues
  • [8:03] WarKirby Magojiro: Yes, but it is not possibleto simply have that retrieved from theasser server, passing only a key referencing that agent?
  • [8:04] Wolt Amat: No, they can only be partially homed there.
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: No, it is most definitely not
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: These things have to have data consistency about them
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: For example, being a friend means a symetrical arrangement has to be maintaned
  • [8:04] Wyn Galbraith: Also a list of cross references per elseWorld. For example friends on SL might be elseWorld as well, but be different names. Same with the agent, Wyn here might be Elwyndas elseWorld.
  • [8:05] Morgaine Dinova: Agents in the greater world will need a wallet with diverse coinage, L$ being just one.
  • [8:05] Wolt Amat: That needs to be a user choice.
  • [8:05] Zero Linden: So we want a server with a web-service front end that encapsulates the data so that it has integrity at all times
  • [8:05] Wolt Amat: I think if they want to be someone else on elseWorld, the same rules apply as having an alt here.
  • [8:05] Rex Cronon: what is "elseWorld"?
  • [8:05] Saijanai Kuhn: somewhere else
  • [8:05] Tao Takashi: that's maybe another question: Is such a contact always symmetrical?
  • [8:05] Wolt Amat: Some other domain.
  • [8:05] Tree Kyomoon: Yes, zero, with an open API that can be developed / worked on by third parties
  • [8:06] Zero Linden: Currently we do indeed let every simulator at the data set that makes up an agent ( though most of it is in a database, only inventory bits in the asset server)
  • [8:06] Tao Takashi: can't I be just the contact of somebody but not the other way round like with most of the social networks out there?
  • [8:06] Zero Linden: this is unworkable for an open grid
  • [8:06] Wyn Galbraith: 3D VR enviroment that is non-SL = elseWorld. Comes from MUing, elseMU means some other MUSH than the one you're on currently.
  • [8:06] Zero Linden: since there is no reasonable way to allow other region domains, operated by other organizations at that data directly
  • [8:07] Wolt Amat: I would like to volunteer to take on user profile aspects.
  • [8:07] Wyn Galbraith: appears to be interested in that area too.
  • [8:07] Wolt Amat: Good.
  • [8:07] Zero Linden: Tao - sure - SL has other relationships already (contact and partner)
  • [8:07] Zero Linden: and one could imagine yet others
  • [8:07] Morgaine Dinova: Docouple. Agent != av. Agent != identity. Those are just conditional properties,
  • [8:08] Morgaine Dinova: Decouple*
  • [8:08] Zero Linden: well - we already have a confusion of names in this area
  • [8:08] Zero Linden: I'm open to better ones
  • [8:08] Rex Cronon: eventually ll will have to allow other server domain to query its assets servers
  • [8:08] Hypatia Callisto: the av is part of the client, actually :)
  • [8:08] Wyn Galbraith: I don't know if anyone ever say the My Model? It was where you could create an image of yourself in RL to go try on clothes virtually at online stores.
  • [8:09] Wolt Amat: There are some current industry "standards" for identifying "uesrs" versus "customers" versus "IDs".
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: let's start with SL today: we say "avatar" to mean the account in some contests and the body shape in others and the whole body + clothes + attachements in others
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: So I've been working with this:
  • [8:09] Wyn Galbraith: There were times that the model you made had to change because the site you were going to had different stuff, like hair for example.
  • [8:09] Zha Ewry: sighs. "I only think of the Ave as the in world graphical blob, which is rendered on various people's clients"
  • [8:09] Jodeg Janus: virtaul persona would it be better?
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: "user" = person sitting in front of a computer running a viewer
  • [8:09] Morgaine Dinova: I'm happy with any names, don't want to get bogged down in word metadiscussions. But the defs should be precise.
  • [8:10] Zero Linden: "agent" = account at an Agent Domain and encompases one name, one inventory, and one set of friends, groups, profile, etc...
  • [8:10] Wyn Galbraith: likes that, Zero.
  • [8:10] Zero Linden: "avatar" = the representation of an agent in a region --- if you aren't in world, you don't have an avatar
  • [8:11] Hypatia Callisto: I like that. Av is the graphical representation.
  • [8:11] Morgaine Dinova: If that's an agent, then we need another name for the presence in the agent server within the agent doman.
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: Lastly, we want very much that if you have two or more "agents" that you can link them:
  • [8:11] JenzZa Misfit: so a user .....is an agent ....and has an avatar(s)
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: link them privately so that when in world as one you have access to the resources of the other
  • [8:11] Zha Ewry: Oooh.
  • [8:11] WarKirby Magojiro: I would have thought "account" would be better in that context
  • [8:11] Wyn Galbraith: alt-agents connected to the main agent?
  • [8:11] Wolt Amat: 1 user = 1+ agents.
  • [8:11] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: you had some sort of agent proxy idea for the name thee, no?
  • [8:11] Rex Cronon: u mean avatars not agents
  • [8:12] Zero Linden: and link them publically (at your option), so that people know (and can trust) your identity relationships
  • [8:12] Wolt Amat: No Rex, agents.
  • [8:12] Hypatia Callisto: it would be nice if an agent could have more than one avatar.
  • [8:12] Zero Linden: Users, meaning people, may have multiple agents,
  • [8:12] Wyn Galbraith: Oh good idea Zero, sharing inventory among alts.
  • [8:12] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I'd be inclined to mark the part in-world as delgates
  • [8:12] WarKirby Magojiro: Avatar is a graphical representation
  • [8:12] Zero Linden: and may or may not choose to link them, privately and/or publically
  • [8:12] Morgaine Dinova: Zero is defining the agent to be the account
  • [8:12] JenzZa Misfit: omg ..I get it
  • [8:13] Tao Takashi: so what about the term "identity" then?
  • [8:13] Morgaine Dinova: But then we need other names for non-account things that are related to the agent's operation
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: I'd go a bit more than just graphical, WK, because we have to talk about the thing that the region manages while you're there
  • [8:13] Wolt Amat: 1 agent = 1+ avatars.
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: which has things like physics and chat
  • [8:13] WarKirby Magojiro: true
  • [8:13] Tao Takashi: I'd rather think that I'd link my agents via my identity
  • [8:13] Hypatia Callisto: yes, would be so much easier.
  • [8:13] Wolt Amat: Tao, only if you chose.
  • [8:13] Rex Cronon: so one agent can have more avatars?
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: Wolt - in sofar as you can have multiple body shapes in your inventory and may choose to wear them at different times
  • [8:13] Tree Kyomoon: openID?
  • [8:14] Wyn Galbraith: User = Identity, Tao?
  • [8:14] Hypatia Callisto: various avatar names, as well.
  • [8:14] Zero Linden: but I don't anticipate (for now) an agent having two avatars in world at once
  • [8:14] Morgaine Dinova: The region doesn't manage the whole agent as you've defined though, Zero.
  • [8:14] Wolt Amat: Well, no, I can have an alt on my agent account here.
  • [8:14] Zero Linden: I think Agent = Identity
  • [8:14] Tree Kyomoon: or is an agent actually not a RL person, its an instance of a person?
  • [8:14] Hypatia Callisto: say for instance, in worldsaway, long ago > one account had two avatar names. You chose which avatar you logged in with.
  • [8:14] Zha Ewry: I dont want to type people as tied purely to identity, it forces some ties people may not want to have
  • [8:14] Zero Linden: If a region domain chooses to have a concept of customer, where customers can manage several agents
  • [8:14] Hypatia Callisto: one account, more than one avatar
  • [8:14] Wolt Amat: Yes, Zha.
  • [8:15] Wyn Galbraith: We do that sometimes Zero, two avatars inworld at the same time, like to attend meetings happening at the same time in different sims.
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: none of that need affect our design
  • [8:15] Tao Takashi: well, maybe not openid but a more general concept
  • [8:15] Rex Cronon: i think identity makes more sense than agent
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: Wyn - I'm not saying that it isn't a possibly useful case right now
  • [8:15] Tao Takashi: need to post about all these standards anyway :) like XRI, yadis, iNames etc,
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: I'm just saying Out-of-the-box we shouldn't strive for that
  • [8:15] Tree Kyomoon: Zero, other than it would mean the design would not make an Agent surgically tied to an account
  • [8:15] Zha Ewry: politely points out we've dove into a random rathole
  • [8:15] Morgaine Dinova: Identity cannot be == agent, because thre is (will be) a 1:N relationship.
  • [8:15] Wolt Amat: Except with a widely useful VR environment, I will need multiple identities.
  • [8:15] Tree Kyomoon: would make sense to be able to pass agents from account to account
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: Tree - I hope that the design doesn't even think about the account at all -
  • [8:16] Wyn Galbraith: Got ya Zero
  • [8:16] Wolt Amat: So I will need to have choices where I link them in the chain.
  • [8:16] Tao Takashi: depends on the definition of identity -)
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: why should a region know anything about the "account" that operates an agent
  • [8:16] Tao Takashi: If I can log in with the same e.g. openid to different agents then this is fine
  • [8:16] Tree Kyomoon: right OK just checking... :)
  • [8:16] Wolt Amat: It shouldn't
  • [8:16] Bryndyn Burton: May affect agent permissions
  • [8:16] Wyn Galbraith: All it needs to know is the agent's.
  • [8:16] Tao Takashi: well, you can ask the agent domain about the permissions
  • [8:17] Wolt Amat: Inter-grid perms is going to be another category a subteam should drill nto.
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: Tao - I can envision that an agent domain will let you associate an open id with your account, which when logged in gives you access to all your agentsw
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: I could also imagine that each of your agents may have their own open id
  • [8:17] Tao Takashi: of course this should be open
  • [8:17] Tao Takashi: an openid might even have some verification attached
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: that you could choose to link those all together or not, should be about the facilities that you and your agent domain negotiate
  • [8:17] Tree Kyomoon: or one could create agents and sell them for a living ;)
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: actually the best thing would be to attach muliple openids to an agent (read: make it possible to)
  • [8:18] Wolt Amat: But as an in world vendor, I may want to be able to limit transfer/copy/mod kinds of perms in those new scales.
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: One thing we want to enable here is different models of agent accounting and different models of land mangement
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: then I am not bound to one provider
  • [8:18] Rex Cronon: u mean avatars tao?
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: but that's very much up to the agent domain implementation then
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: no, openids to an agent
  • [8:18] Rex Cronon: sorry tree
  • [8:18] Morgaine Dinova: Exactly, the region doesn't need to know about account details, so if a region manipulates "agent data" like position, then that label is wrong if agent == identity or agent == account.
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: ah ok :)
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: So, think of it this way, Wolt:
  • [8:19] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, Zero, 40 in sim, several wanting in. You in the big time now
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: You choose to place a vendor on a l
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: Man - I'm going to have move my office to a corner
  • [8:19] Wolt Amat: I don't know who to ask, can I get a set of these slides to wallytwotoes@hotmail.com?
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: The slides are in the wiki
  • [8:19] Morgaine Dinova: So, we need a new term for the data held in regions about an agent, if agent now means ccount or identity.
  • [8:19] Wolt Amat: Thanks.
  • [8:19] Rex Cronon: morgain, the region handles avatarr position, not agent position
  • [8:20] Tao Takashi: not sure if there is much data about an agent in the region
  • [8:20] Zero Linden: er, didn't we just say that agent != account
  • [8:20] Tao Takashi: if data is needed there should be an interface at the agent domain which you can ask
  • [8:20] Wolt Amat: No, a region will assume validated presence of an avatar because the log on process knows the agent info.
  • [8:20] Zha Ewry: JJust a proxy, for sensing, chatting, and such, and the visual endpoint, needs to be in the region, along with some trust stuff
  • [8:20] Tao Takashi: not sure Zero, it get's complicated if you say identity==agent but agent!=account
  • [8:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you started off saying it was account, which I thought was odd :-)
  • [8:21] Zero Linden: er, I said that an agent could have an open id - meaning that we could talk about the agent as an entity to open-id based web sites
  • [8:21] Kerry Giha: So it will be more like other online MMORPGS where you login and then can choose the char to play. I think I like this
  • [8:21] Hypatia Callisto: this makes sense. :) Say you have a family. One account could have a two kids on the teen grid, and an agent for your roleplay on the main grid, and an agent for your business. Four agents on one account.
  • [8:21] Zero Linden: whcih isn't quite the same as agent = account
  • [8:21] Wolt Amat: It's EXACTLY like the relationship between telecom end offices and transport.
  • [8:21] Morgaine Dinova: OK, what's the term for the data managed by the region which describes the position of a user-controlled entity in the region?
  • [8:21] Zero Linden: account is a concept that I don't think should appear in the AWG design at all
  • [8:21] Wolt Amat: brb
  • [8:22] Wyn Galbraith: avatar region data
  • [8:22] Tao Takashi: ok
  • [8:22] Zero Linden: M- I think that name is "avatar"
  • [8:22] Zero Linden: In otherwords, the name of the class that I'd use in the code for a simulator is: "LLAvatar"
  • [8:22] Wyn Galbraith: Avatar Current Region Data?
  • [8:23] Zero Linden: or "TAvatar" or "CAvatar" (take your naming pick!)
  • [8:23] Tree Kyomoon: Account==identity ?
  • [8:23] Tao Takashi: would simply call the class "Avatar" ;-)
  • [8:23] Morgaine Dinova: OK, fine. Avatar necessarily has client-side components, so we're talking about the server-side part of avatars in this context, implicitly, which is fine.
  • [8:23] Zero Linden: Account = something tha tagent domains need to bill their customers
  • [8:23] Zero Linden: M - exactly
  • [8:24] Tao Takashi: I don't want accounts then ;-)
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: Actually, you've hit upon one of the "aha moments" that we had when working on this high level design
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: Right now we all tend to think of the avatar (loose use of the word) as embodied in the viewer code
  • [8:24] Zha Ewry: You do?
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: This design moves it to the Agent Domain
  • [8:24] Hypatia Callisto: yep. (me has ideas about that, but that's another thing :p)
  • [8:24] Morgaine Dinova: End users do :-)
  • [8:25] Zha Ewry: Wow. My brain never did that. How odd
  • [8:25] WarKirby Magojiro: Therefore, the simulator tracks agent position, not avatar. correct ?
  • [8:25] Wyn Galbraith: Do we have an AWG Glossary?
  • [8:25] Zha Ewry: The cliient is *so* just a way to see into the world
  • [8:25] Wolt Amat: Zero, have use cases been defined?
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: I'd say the simulator creates the illusion of avatars by manging the in-world presence of an agent
  • [8:25] Zha Ewry: Yes, we have a glossary, and we need to keep it in sync
  • [8:26] Rex Cronon: u can have more than one avatar, so one agent can be in 2 places at the same time
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: Wolt - not well defined, no
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: Okay - we have four remaining minutes
  • [8:26] Wolt Amat: I would suggest a set of use cases needs to be scribbled down and shared as well.
  • [8:26] Morgaine Dinova: "In-world presence of an agent" == "server-side part of avatar" then, bringing both points together.
  • [8:26] Wolt Amat: And naming should fall from that.
  • [8:27] Goldie Katsu: And agent to avitar is one to one? (As in current instance of avatar)
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: I fear this is becoming a Laputan discussion....
  • [8:27] Zero Linden: Welcome to the group, Wolt - please start scribbling in the wiki
  • [8:28] Wolt Amat: OK.
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: All we need to know now then is, does the sim PULL agent data, or push it to the agent? Eg. last position in region.
  • [8:28] Goldie Katsu: grins
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: M. I think there is a separation of concerns here
  • [8:28] Wyn Galbraith: can't find the glossary.
  • [8:28] Wolt Amat: That should fall out of a validated use case, Morgaine.
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: If you want to know what region agent X is in, as agent X's agent domain
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: once you know she is in region Y, as region Y's region domain where X is standing exactly
  • [8:29] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: oh, you mean to say that the agent never actually learns of its position in a region? That is always retained in the current sim?
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: That's pretty reasonable. It lets people who need to know find out how to know by goign to the agent
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: and then, get the details from the firect source
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: *direct
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: I don't see that current x,y,z is part of the agent data set - though we could choose to cache it there while in world for efficency reasons, I suppose (ask only one "where are you" question)
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: OK, that's reasonable.
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: If you then did a re-direct on the old sim, it would be horridyingly RESTful and Webish
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: Of course, the viewer will have a live stream from the region
  • [8:30] Tree Kyomoon: horridyingly?
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: Go to the agent, get told "in Grasemere"
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: so the viewer will know from the regions it is connected to the positions of the avatars in those regions
  • [8:31] Zha Ewry: go to Grasmere and get 178,118,27
  • [8:31] Morgaine Dinova: Zha, I think we can draw a relations diagram now
  • [8:31] Zha Ewry: Yep
  • [8:31] Dr Scofield: just realized that time diff between US and EU is one hour less than usual...
  • [8:31] Tao Takashi: indeed, Dr :)
  • [8:31] Hypatia Callisto: just for this week
  • [8:31] Goldie Katsu: yes US changes this sunday
  • [8:31] Dr Scofield: hi all
  • [8:31] Zha Ewry: I'd wonder, Zero, if there is any reason not to do the re-direct?
  • [8:31] Zero Linden: Dr. - for just this week - we sync back up again on Sunday
  • [8:31] Frans Charming: yay
  • [8:31] Tao Takashi: DST is silly ;-)
  • [8:31] Tao Takashi: maybe even sillier than timezones
  • [8:32] Morgaine Dinova: DrS: it's Bush's War on Terror: his current strategy is to make them 1 hour late
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: Zha - I'm not sure at this point
  • [8:32] Wolt Amat: haha, I git bitten by that last year, thought I had 90 minutes to my plane, LOL.
  • [8:32] Dr Scofield: yep...too late for today, need to read up on the log then
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: okay all...
  • [8:32] Wyn Galbraith: agrees with Tao.
  • [8:32] Zha Ewry: k
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: I have to keep on schedule this morning
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: thanks for all coming
  • [8:32] Tao Takashi: cya Zero!
  • [8:32] Goldie Katsu: Thanks Zero
  • [8:32] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
  • [8:32] Hypatia Callisto: Thanks :)
  • [8:32] Zha Ewry: Be nice general topci to think about, Zero, whether we want to try to re-directs in general
  • [8:32] Goldie Katsu: Cya
  • [8:32] Zha Ewry: Thanks Zero
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: To the floating island of laputa :)
  • [8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Zero
  • [8:32] Frans Charming: Thank you Zero, take care.
  • [8:32] Zha Ewry: Really nice stuff today
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: Thanks Tree for getting transcripts into the wiki
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