User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 11

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  • [7:03] PulseBurst Flow: hey tree
  • [7:03] Tree Kyomoon: hello there :)
  • [7:03] Tree Kyomoon: are you here for the zero meeting?
  • [7:04] PulseBurst Flow: that's a pretty cool avatar...yeah, it starts in about a half hour...
  • [7:04] PulseBurst Flow: just wanted to check the location..
  • [7:04] PulseBurst Flow: never been here before
  • [7:04] Tree Kyomoon: great
  • [7:05] PulseBurst Flow: you do the transcripts?
  • [7:05] Tree Kyomoon: yes I have been lately
  • [7:05] Tree Kyomoon: I made a little transcript wikifier
  • [7:05] PulseBurst Flow: ccol
  • [7:05] Tree Kyomoon: attempting to make my flash programming skills useful in here :)
  • [7:06] PulseBurst Flow: didn't know there was any use of flash in SL
  • [7:06] Tree Kyomoon: there isnt
  • [7:06] Tree Kyomoon: so my wikifier is external
  • [7:06] PulseBurst Flow: oh, I see
  • [7:06] Tree Kyomoon: but that said, I hope to see some capabilities added
  • [7:06] Tree Kyomoon: as I would like to build flash based clients for SL
  • [7:07] Tree Kyomoon: mini clients I mean
  • [7:07] PulseBurst Flow: you mean, entirely done in flash?
  • [7:07] Tree Kyomoon: well yes
  • [7:07] Tree Kyomoon: except for the viewer part, but flash could be a layer on that
  • [7:08] PulseBurst Flow: so, that should run on any platform..in any web browser that supports flash..
  • [7:08] PulseBurst Flow: have you started it?
  • [7:08] Tree Kyomoon: yes, I could make facebook / sl apps, chat apps, phone apps, inventory management apps
  • [7:09] PulseBurst Flow: oh, sounds like you have some serious flash skills there. ;-D
  • [7:09] Tree Kyomoon: Ive been coming to these meetings hoping to get them to build the tools I would need to get started
  • [7:09] PulseBurst Flow: Well, can't you work with libsecondlife files
  • [7:09] Tree Kyomoon: Ive been building communication/content management tools in flash for many years
  • [7:09] Tree Kyomoon: I could, but my skills are pretty green in the area of C#
  • [7:10] Tree Kyomoon: Im trying to learn though, I have it on my computer
  • [7:10] PulseBurst Flow: well, what are you expecting from the in way of support?
  • [7:10] Tree Kyomoon: more capabilities
  • [7:10] PulseBurst Flow:  ;-D
  • [7:10] Tree Kyomoon: like currently, there are I think three that linden labs provides
  • [7:11] Tree Kyomoon: but what I would want is to be able to use flash to login and access basically all the data in the viewer via a series of web based "capabilities" or methods
  • [7:12] Tree Kyomoon: hey there Tao :)
  • [7:12] Tao Takashi: Hi there
  • [7:12] Tao Takashi: just a quick visit probably as I am at the Plone conference right now
  • [7:12] Tao Takashi: (and doing the streaming)
  • [7:13] PulseBurst Flow: Hmm..well, and I'm still green myself with SL, but I think libsecondlife probably has a lot of the routines you would need...but unfortuantly, not in a language you can use yet
  • [7:13] PulseBurst Flow: Hi Tao../
  • [7:13] PulseBurst Flow: Have you seen AjaxLife
  • [7:13] Tao Takashi: I should use that instead of the real client
  • [7:13] Tree Kyomoon: yes, in fact Ive met with Katharine Berry in RL
  • [7:13] Tao Takashi: oh, cool
  • [7:14] Tree Kyomoon: as far as I can tell, it goes through a staged .net server, so its pretty slow, at least for me
  • [7:14] Tree Kyomoon: Id need a more direct interface
  • [7:15] Tree Kyomoon: and at least on the grid site, they are promising more "capabilities"
  • [7:15] PulseBurst Flow: chat's really lagging.
  • [7:15] Tree Kyomoon: could be, I am on satellite
  • [7:15] PulseBurst Flow: or maybe it ate my post.
  • [7:16] PulseBurst Flow: Oh..stupit newbie error..posted it in wrong groupt..
  • [7:16] PulseBurst Flow: > Wow, very cool..I wanted to invite here into a group I'm forming here, but I think she can't - teen grid.
  • [7:16] Tree Kyomoon: hah
  • [7:16] Tree Kyomoon: yes she is on the teen grid
  • [7:16] Tree Kyomoon: which is unfortunate
  • [7:16] Tree Kyomoon: for us
  • [7:17] Tao Takashi: one day this will change ;-)
  • [7:17] Tree Kyomoon: yes
  • [7:17] PulseBurst Flow: Tao, been looking at your blog recently
  • [7:17] Tree Kyomoon: I heard that the person with the highest iq currently alive is 13 and going to princeton
  • [7:18] Tao Takashi: Pulse, hope you like it :-)
  • [7:18] PulseBurst Flow: Yeah, it was good. I've got a lot of catching up to do.
  • [7:19] PulseBurst Flow: Oh, on my first read, I thought it said IQ of 13. LOL. Show's my IQ, I guess...
  • [7:20] Tree Kyomoon: lol
  • [7:20] PulseBurst Flow: Tree, you're not logging this yet?
  • [7:20] Tree Kyomoon: hey there wyn
  • [7:20] PulseBurst Flow:  ;-D
  • [7:20] Tree Kyomoon: its all logged im afraid :)
  • [7:20] Tao Takashi: btw, Plone Conference streaming at [1] :-)
  • [7:20] Tao Takashi: even in SL
  • [7:21] Wyn Galbraith: Morning
  • [7:21] Tao Takashi: Hi Wyn
  • [7:21] Tree Kyomoon: hello there Wyn :)
  • [7:21] Wyn Galbraith: What'd I miss?
  • [7:21] Tao Takashi: does anybody know what this IBM with Linden Lab post is about?
  • [7:22] Wyn Galbraith: Zha's taking over?
  • [7:22] PulseBurst Flow: Hi Wyn
  • [7:22] Tao Takashi: unfortunately I lost the URL ;-)
  • [7:22] Wyn Galbraith: It's in the official blog.
  • [7:22] Tree Kyomoon: no I didnt, let me have a look...
  • [7:23] Tree Kyomoon: oh its everett
  • [7:23] Wyn Galbraith: [2]
  • [7:24] Tao Takashi: I am a bit disconnected here at the conference ;-)
  • [7:24] Tao Takashi: at least a bit behind
  • [7:24] Tao Takashi: not really disconnected
  • [7:24] Wyn Galbraith: New office hours too *takes a look*
  • [7:25] Wyn Galbraith: Oh for Havok 4
  • [7:25] Tao Takashi: I'd also like to learn more about this stuff, hopefully Zero can talk about it
  • [7:25] Tao Takashi: in fact he should ;-)
  • [7:25] Wyn Galbraith: needs more sleep.
  • [7:25] Wyn Galbraith: it's at 8am Thursdays, so now we have an overlap for Zero.
  • [7:26] Tao Takashi: havok 4?
  • [7:26] Tao Takashi: SLGA is more interesting, havok 4 just a detail ;-)
  • [7:26] Tao Takashi: I trust in them getting it right :)
  • [7:26] Wyn Galbraith: Beta preview for havok4
  • [7:26] Tree Kyomoon: I was at the havok 4 grid the other day
  • [7:27] Tree Kyomoon: good sphere collisions!
  • [7:27] Wyn Galbraith: Morning Morgaine
  • [7:27] Wyn Galbraith: And Dzonatas, nice AV
  • [7:27] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Wyn:-) Morning all :-)
  • [7:27] Dzonatas Sol: Hello!
  • [7:27] Dzonatas Sol: ty!
  • [7:27] Wyn Galbraith: hasn't worn her butterfly in a coon's age.
  • [7:28] Tao Takashi: Hi Dzonatas
  • [7:28] Tree Kyomoon: hey Morgaine :)
  • [7:28] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Tree!!
  • [7:28] Tillie Ariantho: heya! :)
  • [7:28] Tao Takashi: Hi Morgaine, Tillie
  • [7:28] Wyn Galbraith: Morning Tillie
  • [7:28] Dzonatas Sol: I've got a whole landscaped mainland area now that is very lush... I'm not the only one with a butterfly!
  • [7:28] PulseBurst Flow: Hi Tillie, Chase..
  • [7:28] Chase Marellan: Good morning, Pulse, all.
  • [7:28] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, full ennumeration doesn't scale. Hi everyone :-)))
  • [7:28] Tillie Ariantho: ao off
  • [7:29] Wyn Galbraith: will have to check it out.
  • [7:29] PulseBurst Flow: good idea Morgain...hi everyone.
  • [7:29] Dzonatas Sol: let me find the LM...
  • [7:29] Wyn Galbraith: Morning Zha
  • [7:29] Zha Ewry: Morning all
  • [7:29] Morgaine Dinova: Ah cool, hi Zha
  • [7:29] Wyn Galbraith: will have to find her butterfly av, "Inventory is now 26K"
  • [7:30] Tree Kyomoon: Zha I am reading this press release..was that you? [3]
  • [7:30] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks.
  • [7:30] Tao Takashi: yes, Zha can explain :)
  • [7:30] Tao Takashi: Hi Zha
  • [7:30] Zha Ewry: Hmm.
  • [7:30] Zha Ewry: Which precise one?
  • [7:30] Tillie Ariantho: if anyone has any things for the open source meeting, add them to the agenda... Dzonatas nullified most of my entries. .P
  • [7:30] Dzonatas Sol: hehe... i've kept mine between 10-15k.... boxing objects works
  • [7:30] Tao Takashi: boxing objects is just hiding Ks inside boxes ;-)
  • [7:30] Dzonatas Sol: hehe oops =)
  • [7:30] Zha Ewry: Ah
  • [7:31] Tao Takashi: where is the tags implementation? :)
  • [7:31] Zha Ewry: If you look at that one, I've got RL work items on the first and last bullet points in the lower third
  • [7:31] Dzonatas Sol: Well, damnit, i need my walk-in closet sim! Hurry up with this AWG! =p
  • [7:32] Tree Kyomoon: very good!
  • [7:32] Tao Takashi: having 2 streaming apps and SL running on one laptop is makeing it sort of hot...
  • [7:32] Tao Takashi: at which temperature does the CPU melt?
  • [7:32] Tree Kyomoon: if its a mac you might be in danger of catching fire
  • [7:34] Dzonatas Sol: It would be cool to take things from inventory and store them in a sim... a growing inventory I'm surprised isn't in the use cases somehow?
  • [7:34] Zha Ewry: Well, you can write a use case, Dzontas, but in terms o tech, what does that really mean?
  • [7:34] Tree Kyomoon: inventories should be stored locally I think
  • [7:34] Tillie Ariantho: Would be cool to store inventory away on your harddisc. .)
  • [7:34] Tillie Ariantho: Or a copy of it.
  • [7:35] Zha Ewry: Because the only way you can get at it, is if it's accesible to the sims
  • [7:35] Dzonatas Sol: right, it would mean a temporary teleport... maybe even being in two places at once
  • [7:35] Zha Ewry: Oddly, I can' rez objects which live in a laptop, and don't expose themselves to the web in a consistent way, and on many people's laptops, I can't see into it because of a firewall
  • [7:36] Tillie Ariantho: Tree, I see your lungs are totally messed up. Are you a big smoker? .P
  • [7:36] Tillie Ariantho: Bad to the bone. .P
  • [7:36] Tree Kyomoon: my lungs are perfectly fine thank you....in a remote location at this time ;)
  • [7:37] Tillie Ariantho: =D
  • [7:37] Tillie Ariantho: Hah that would be cool. To not get the lungs into danger just leave them at home...
  • [7:37] Dzonatas Sol: so are you saying the inventory would need to exist behind a firewall?
  • [7:38] Zha Ewry: Saying it couldn't
  • [7:38] Tree Kyomoon: exactly! I find that keeping all my organs in a safe place keeps me healthy
  • [7:38] Zha Ewry: If it does, and isn't accesible, to the sims, I'm kind of unable to use it
  • [7:38] Zha Ewry: (And we'll see that, btw)
  • [7:38] Zero Linden: Hello all!
  • [7:38] Zha Ewry: Good Morning Zero!
  • [7:38] Tillie Ariantho: So where is the master himself... uh oh. there he is. .P
  • [7:38] Tree Kyomoon: welcome to your office zero :)
  • [7:38] Wyn Galbraith: Morning Zero.
  • [7:38] Neas Bade: hello zero
  • [7:38] PulseBurst Flow: hi Zero
  • [7:38] Zha Ewry: glances at zero to see if his eyes are bleary from reading all the Wiki posts
  • [7:39] Chase Marellan: Hi, Zero
  • [7:39] Dzonatas Sol: Heya Zero
  • [7:39] Zero Linden: No - they are bleary from the all-day meeting prior to the virtual worlds conference
  • [7:39] Tillie Ariantho: heh
  • [7:39] Zero Linden: So - let's get at it
  • [7:39] Zha Ewry: Chuckle.
  • [7:39] Zero Linden: First
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: Welcome all to my office hourse
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: er horse
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: er hours!
  • [7:40] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Zero :-)
  • [7:40] Dzonatas Sol: Zha, so it wouldn't work behind the typical firewall setup unless the sims behind the firewall used something like uPNP to open channels
  • [7:40] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: I see some new faces
  • [7:40] Zha Ewry: (at Dzon)
  • [7:40] Dr Scofield: hi all
  • [7:40] Tillie Ariantho: I have a new face often, but still the same person behind it. .P
  • [7:40] Zha Ewry: In fact, Dzon, the accesability grid for services, isgoing to be interesting
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: So for them - we are here to discuss the architecture, present and future, of Second Life
  • [7:40] Kooky Jetaime: streches his face...thinkin god its tooo early
  • [7:40] Zero Linden: The tanscript is posted to the wiki - so speak freely and openly!
  • [7:41] Tao Takashi: Hey Zero
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: So Some quick stuff
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: Next Tuesday
  • [7:41] Kooky Jetaime: chuckles.... thats bit of a .. uhm... joke isn't it?
  • [7:41] Morgaine Dinova: I read in Tuesday's transcript that Tess asked AWG folks to introduce themselves. I got there late and didn't see the request, so here's mine now, with the help of cut'n'paste: ;-)
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: Tess and the Icehouse crew would like to come here and discuss Viewer/Web authentication
  • [7:41] Zero Linden: Mark your calendars.... etc....
  • [7:41] Morgaine Dinova: EE grad, CompSci research in parallelism, PhD, postdoc, lecturer in SoftEng, then freelance contractor in systems, networks, arch, defence, kernels, GUIs, analysis, design, coding, regression testing, and multi-year work in ISP services scalability. Long career :P. Main interest here is scalability as a social enabler, ie. events.
  • [7:42] Morgaine Dinova: I can also fetch the tea. :-)
  • [7:42] Wyn Galbraith: marks her calendar.
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: Second, Studio Icehouse has set it's 4th quarter goals
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: And thought you might like to know what they are
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: 1) Finish the Viewer/Web Auth project
  • [7:43] Zero Linden: 2) Do Het-Grid "Intermetzzo" - which is a phase between 1 and 2 - where we change how regions are allocated to simulators
  • [7:44] Tao Takashi: 3) finish up the SLGA ;-)
  • [7:44] Dr Scofield: lol
  • [7:44] Zero Linden: 3) (fanfare) Demonstrate viewer login on a development grid with an agent domain
  • [7:44] Zha Ewry: grins
  • [7:44] Tao Takashi: see! :)
  • [7:44] Zha Ewry: Oooh. 3)
  • [7:44] Zha Ewry: Yummy
  • [7:44] Tree Kyomoon: yay three
  • [7:44] Neas Bade: yay :)
  • [7:44] Tillie Ariantho: w00ties!
  • [7:44] Zha Ewry: 2) ya need to do
  • [7:45] Zha Ewry: 1) you need to sell people on
  • [7:45] Tao Takashi: so is there any docs on how the login is going to work then?
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: For this - the team is committing to getting heavily involed in the SLGAWG process, on the wiki, in the mailing list,
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: so that the design can be developed first (while they are coding 1 & 2)
  • [7:45] Tao Takashi: that's definitely needed then :)
  • [7:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hooray, it's lonely on the wiki :-)
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: and then when 2 is in testing we can dive into coding too
  • [7:45] Tillie Ariantho: Morgaine: hehe. .P
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: Now -
  • [7:45] Zero Linden: Please be kind to them when they show up!
  • [7:46] Zero Linden:  :-)
  • [7:46] Zha Ewry: We don't bite
  • [7:46] Rex Cronon: hello everybody. had to reinstal sl. it was trying to clear cache for 10 minutes. that is why i am late
  • [7:46] Dr Scofield: what no bashing with old fish?
  • [7:46] Zha Ewry: Nibble from time to time, and sometimes
  • [7:46] Dr Scofield: l
  • [7:46] Zha Ewry: we try to suck thier brains dry
  • [7:46] Zha Ewry: But we're nice while we do it
  • [7:46] Dr Scofield: lol
  • [7:46] Neas Bade: zha: reminds me of the song Re: Your Brains :)
  • [7:46] Zero Linden: Naw - bash me, I'm old and craggy - but Tess, Donovan, Leyla, Sabin, and Periapse are actually doing WORK
  • [7:47] Dr Scofield: snow crash distributed via SL AWG logo
  • [7:47] Morgaine Dinova: We're analytic people, and scalpels can be sharp. But this is all technical, and we're friends :-)
  • [7:47] Kooky Jetaime: Oh so your just sittin there Zero? :)
  • [7:47] Kooky Jetaime: chuckles
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: That reminds me of one of the Icehouse "rules":
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: No Ego in Code: We are all highly talented, and we respect each other. We are ruthless to the code.
  • [7:48] Kooky Jetaime: nice rule
  • [7:48] Morgaine Dinova: Lovely!
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: It's rule #1
  • [7:48] Wyn Galbraith: Good rule.
  • [7:48] Tree Kyomoon: wonders how you put ego into code....
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: I should put these in the AWG pages as rules for the AWG!
  • [7:48] Zha Ewry: Ruthless to the design, and spec too
  • [7:48] Zha Ewry: Yes, you should
  • [7:49] Tillie Ariantho: I always make the code look like "TILLIE" if you print it and zoom away from the pages then. .)
  • [7:49] Neas Bade: agreed
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: And.. Tree, lots of people anntropormtigize
  • [7:49] Dr Scofield: thinks we should put that on the AWG wiki page
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: and think of the code as part of them
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: Tree, like this "First I call the database, then I sort the rows, and then I call each module in turn"
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: Yep
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: Just lite that
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: The problem with that is
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: "The database gets updated, and then sroted"
  • [7:49] Arawn Spitteler: "We only like your code, if we can abuse it."
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: *sorted"
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: then someone says "That's stupid, you should get the database to sort them for you."
  • [7:49] Zha Ewry: takes the "I" out
  • [7:49] Dr Scofield: screwed?
  • [7:50] Kooky Jetaime: Code is like a wiki.. once you've put it down, expect it to be unmercilessly edited, revised, rewritten, and restored to its original glory a hundred times.
  • [7:50] Zero Linden: It has become an attack on the programmer, not the code.
  • [7:50] Zha Ewry: glances up at strifes neck, and scritches the giant beast softly under the scales.
  • [7:50] Zero Linden: It is very hard to extract personal feelings from things when the pronouns are all "I" and "you" and "we"
  • [7:50] Tao Takashi: well, I am at a conference right now and as I have to cvhange rooms I will read the transcript later..
  • [7:50] Tao Takashi: cya later! :)
  • [7:51] Kooky Jetaime: Bye...
  • [7:51] Rex Cronon: bye tao
  • [7:51] Tree Kyomoon: ciao tao
  • [7:51] Zha Ewry: Later, Tao
  • [7:51] Zero Linden: Bye
  • [7:51] Strife Onizuka: gives a deep purr
  • [7:51] Dr Scofield: always things of code as "that bugger again is not doing what i want it to do..."
  • [7:51] Strife Onizuka: take care
  • [7:51] Dr Scofield: tao
  • [7:51] Zha Ewry: So.. That's an excellent rule
  • [7:51] Kooky Jetaime: I'llb e leaving shortly...someone decided to schedule another OH during the great and powerful Zero's hour so I'm forced to split my time.. :/ (Havok 4 Office Hour in Brampton @ 8)
  • [7:52] Strife Onizuka: fires up alt
  • [7:52] Zha Ewry: And.. In general.. also trying to keep all the spec/use cases non personal
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: The other part of ego is not feeling like you own a peice of code and no one else can touch it.
  • [7:52] Tree Kyomoon: zero I guess Ive been coding too long by myself to not like the idea of others even LOOKING at my code. Id love it if someone took enough of an interest in it to rip it to shreds!
  • [7:52] Wyn Galbraith: Nice dragon Strife.
  • [7:52] Morgaine Dinova: "This approach here suffers from X,Y,Z, and therefore won't meet goals ABC." Not "Jeez man, are you clueless or something, that will never work."
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: Okay - well, I understand there has been LOTS of discusssion about
  • [7:52] Strife Onizuka: (thx)
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: simulator processes and regions
  • [7:53] Zha Ewry: Geez Morgaine, you are clueless, social engineering like that will never work. ;)
  • [7:53] Zha Ewry: (Joke)
  • [7:53] Zero Linden: is it 1-to-1, is it 1-to-many, why aren't regions arbitrary
  • [7:53] howow Nabob: *mews*
  • [7:53] Morgaine Dinova: Cheers Zha :-) I love you too :-)))
  • [7:53] Zero Linden: etc....
  • [7:53] howow Nabob: friendly greetings !
  • [7:53] Arawn Spitteler: Random Access Regions?
  • [7:53] Tree Kyomoon: arbitrary in what sense Zero?
  • [7:54] Rex Cronon: hi howow
  • [7:54] Zha Ewry: Well, in fact, Zero.. Is there any reason, that the inter-relationship is defined by anything other than a registration service, and how the edge behavior is defined/
  • [7:54] Zha Ewry:  ?
  • [7:54] Dzonatas Sol: Are we saying to rez a region like we can rez a prim?
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: Well, there is a balance here
  • [7:54] Morgaine Dinova: How Zero defines this is central in my view.
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: but first, I want to talk about the realm of our design here
  • [7:55] Zha Ewry: leans forward and listens closely
  • [7:55] howow Nabob: bang on things
  • [7:55] Morgaine Dinova: gets ready to pack her bags
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: So - looking at the image here
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: The first thing I want to point out is that we are designing the red lines
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: what is inside the green boxes is only for illustration
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: the point of my designing (and exposing) how LL intends to implement the inside of teh green box
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: is to prove to ourselves that this design of the red lines can be implemented with a scalable implemetnation
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: But, the lines *inside* the green box - should in general, not be part of the design
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: (There is an exception...... wait for it)
  • [7:57] Zha Ewry: waits
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: So, for the most part
  • [7:58] Zero Linden: (no, I mean wait quite a bit, I'll get to it later)
  • [7:58] Zha Ewry: will wait
  • [7:58] Morgaine Dinova: I've been waiting almost 4 years, can wait a little longer :-)
  • [7:58] howow Nabob: wait while Zero bang on things and lines
  • [7:58] Zero Linden: It shouldn't matter to the red lines
  • [7:58] Zero Linden: if the region you are in is
  • [7:59] Zero Linden: simulated by one process, ten processes or 1/10 of a process
  • [7:59] Morgaine Dinova: As long as ...
  • [7:59] Zero Linden: except for the fact that you have to have AN endpoint (ip:port)
  • [7:59] Zha Ewry: (Or like the SL wiki, hosted on Coyry's old Sinclair ZX81)
  • [7:59] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [8:00] howow Nabob: a region simulated by many process ? i'm not sure to understand
  • [8:00] PulseBurst Flow: Is there a key, or some documenation as to what all those little items are in those green and blue "boxes"?
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: But - a single ip:port could be through a load ballancer
  • [8:00] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero, web 101. The port is the abstraction
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: it could be to a simple router process that then forwards to the right process (say, if you wanted one process per 1024 sq. m.)
  • [8:01] Zero Linden: So, the only issue then is how much does the region division leak into the abstraction of the red lines?
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: How much of the deep state sharing are we stuck exposing, and how does that scale
  • [8:02] Zero Linden: There are two ends of this spectrum
  • [8:02] Morgaine Dinova: And Zero, what if the resource *behind* the singe ip:port is not disjoint from the rest of the resources within the architecture, such that no matter what lovely load balancers etc you put in front of the abstraction, you get no speedup, because it's the backend that's logjammed?
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: a) When an agent connects into a region in a region domain, it gets one ip:port for it's connection to the region domain period
  • [8:03] Zero Linden: b) At anytime, the agent is suseptible to being handed off to another ip:port
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: Morgain - I don't understand - that sounds like a poor implementation choice on the part of the region domain implementor
  • [8:04] Dr Scofield: /av
  • [8:04] Morgaine Dinova: Nope, it depends whether there is a logical dependency within the design of the architecture. Decent design of the region is presuposed.
  • [8:05] Zero Linden: For example, right now Morgaine- you can't actually tell if Grasmere is simulated by one process, or a dozen cooperative processes (LSL, Physics, networking, etc...)
  • [8:05] Zha Ewry: Decent definitino of how much state needs to be shared is preuposed
  • [8:05] Zero Linden: or even 16 processes one per 256 sq. m.
  • [8:05] Dzonatas Sol: The handoff seems like it would be easier under IPv6 than IPv4?
  • [8:06] Dr Scofield: i guess morgaine is concerned about the definition of the region domain (if i understand her correctly...)
  • [8:06] Dr Scofield: that is, do we have the right boundaries
  • [8:06] Zero Linden: So, let's get this point agreed - even if you have one connection point, that doesn't presuppose a particular implementation strategy
  • [8:06] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero... I think, the lurking question, is how much deep state needs to be shared between the regions, as the number of agents and componentn interactoins godes up
  • [8:07] Dr Scofield: agrees vehemently
  • [8:07] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero. "Yep. It's a API contract. We get to define that, and let the builders meet it."
  • [8:07] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I have an example for you, derived from Zha's joke about Cory's ZX81: the wiki is dreadfully logjammed. However, if you test Apache from the front end, Apache is always there and responds instantly. If you make the wiki an abstraction in your model, and do so thinking that it will run fast because Apache is inherently scalable, then you will get a nasty shock. Because it's not Apache that's the problem, if the coupling of Apache to the wiki deeper within the system.
  • [8:07] Zero Linden: *between* regions? Notice that there are no red lines between regions on any of these diagrams
  • [8:07] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero...
  • [8:08] Zha Ewry: But.... in fact there are state transactoins there
  • [8:08] Zero Linden: Ah, so, Morgain - your objection would be that the hypothetical load ballancer or router wouldn't be able to keep up?
  • [8:08] Dr Scofield: between regions is only once you move, i'd think
  • [8:08] Zha Ewry: (Hand off, seeing across an edge)
  • [8:08] Dr Scofield: bu t then the implementation of the region is borked
  • [8:09] howow Nabob: Zero: it's like having a wonderfull cluster of 1000 apache poking a single mysql database running on a 486
  • [8:09] Dr Scofield: zha, that too, you are right
  • [8:09] Zha Ewry: Yes it is howowo, but that's not the archietctures to prevent
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: howow - please explain the metaphore - which thing in the design is the 1000 apaches and which is the db?
  • [8:09] Morgaine Dinova: Zero:other way around. My concern is that people are interested only in front ends that are well known to be scalable, and ignoring the fact that these nice front ends won't give us any scalability whatsoever if the resources in question are not inherently scalable,
  • [8:09] Zha Ewry: I, for one, won't pay to have my sim hosted by someone who does that.
  • [8:10] Wyn Galbraith: I met a man back in '91 who was working on bring VR to the livingroom. He said that the mind doesn't need a lot of information to fill in the blanks. So if there is a way to lessen the data as the views get farther away would that help?
  • [8:10] Zero Linden: Morgaine - ah, is your concern that we have demonstrated enough why the things inside the green box will be scalable?
  • [8:10] Wyn Galbraith: *bringing
  • [8:10] Morgaine Dinova: howow Nabon has given the correct image.
  • [8:10] howow Nabob: zero; jsut a metaphore about what Margaine is trying to explain, i think.
  • [8:10] Zero Linden: it isn't really about the abstraction of region in the external protocol?
  • [8:11] Zha Ewry: gently says, "The only thing I can reason about is the behavior across the abstraction boundaries"
  • [8:11] howow Nabob: morgaine is just afraid that you're just moving the bottleneck from region to "something else"
  • [8:11] Neas Bade: zero, I'd like to hear where you were going on region handoff
  • [8:11] REGION CRASH:
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: fie and tarnation
  • [8:14] Dr Scofield: zero, you should really get one of those new-fangled C64s to run your region domain on
  • [8:14] Zero Linden: "We....; are the champions, my friends...."
  • [8:14] Zha Ewry: 360/168
  • [8:14] Zero Linden: no 360/65 - it was a cooler implementation
  • [8:14] Dr Scofield: ok, blue gene!
  • [8:14] Tree Kyomoon: what was the last mention on the chat history..did anyone remember?
  • [8:15] Zha Ewry: he 65 was cooler, the 168 virtulized better
  • [8:15] Tillie Ariantho: I want a Sun Black Box for my sim. .P
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: last I got was [8:11
  • [8:15] PulseBurst Flow: So what just happend, the red lines got tangled, and the blue boxes imploded?
  • [8:15] Zha Ewry: Neas, on region handoff
  • [8:15] Dzonatas Sol: ...last mention.. about region handoff right after morgain's comments
  • [8:15] Tree Kyomoon: oh good, thats the last I have too, fortunately I managed to salvage it all
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: which was the 360 that had copper plated punch cards soaked in electrolyte as the microcode ROM?
  • [8:15] Neas Bade: I think we all dropped right after my comment
  • [8:15] Zha Ewry: Looks like Neas
  • [8:15] Goldie Katsu: (you can turn on chat logging in preferences)
  • [8:15] Neas Bade: I was afraid I unloosed the magic kill words or something
  • [8:15] Dr Scofield: so, it was your fault
  • [8:16] Neas Bade: ducks
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: The idea of using punch cards as easily programmed arrays of capacitors is shear brilliance
  • [8:16] Zha Ewry: You said handoff, we got handed off
  • [8:16] Saijanai Kuhn: I log in and the sim crashes?
  • [8:16] Goldie Katsu: No it couldn't have been that - I didn't find myself falling through prims before the crash.
  • [8:16] Zha Ewry: That looked like the "Wow, Sim's gone" crash
  • [8:16] Zha Ewry: which I assume means a segfault level halt
  • [8:17] Zha Ewry: stable, stable. GONE
  • [8:17] Tillie Ariantho: I was back up quite fast. Maybe sim wasn't down but we got a packet that said it was down?
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: (the copper platting was in rows on one side, columns on the other, the capacitor formed by the soaked card stock between where they crossed, punching a hole removed a capacitor)
  • [8:17] Goldie Katsu: panic free inode isn't
  • [8:17] Saijanai Kuhn: seriouslly, I TP in and I find I can't move and get the sim going down message. How's that for timing
  • [8:17] Tillie Ariantho: I -> It
  • [8:17] Zha Ewry: checks her notes
  • [8:17] Zha Ewry: I think we have90% of our quorum back
  • [8:17] Saijanai Kuhn: what did I miss? DId I win?
  • [8:18] Zha Ewry: Saij, Morgaine tasked you to fix scaling.
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: nope - it crashed!
  • [8:18] Morgaine Dinova: Boy we're unlucky with restarts.
  • [8:18] Saijanai Kuhn: That was my fix
  • [8:18] Arawn Spitteler: Yes, Sai, and we'd all like to commend your responsibility.
  • [8:18] Saijanai Kuhn: worked didn't it?
  • [8:19] Tree Kyomoon: oh hey strife, didnt see you there :)
  • [8:19] Dzonatas Sol: About the region handoff, I wonder if it is feasible to start it up with IPv6 instead of IP4, then we don't have to worry about older firewall/NAT problems. We don't know when IPv6 will be finally ushered in, but it is a thought to keep in mind in the green areas.
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: well, my frame rate is back down to 6fps, so you all must be here
  • [8:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zero, I saw your questtion just before the crash ... responding.
  • [8:19] Dr Scofield: zero, lol
  • [8:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: Yes, my concern is very targetted (although I can help in many areas): I am concerned about getting us out of the appalling non-scalability that we're currently suffering in events. It's destroying SL community, because SL is no longer just a habitat for builders. It's grown up into a social sphere, and people want to get together in groups, and in numerous use cases that includes larger groups. I want SL to address what is without a doubt its single largest non-scalability.
  • [8:20] PulseBurst Flow: can't wait till the CSI: New York stress test.
  • [8:20] Chase Marellan: shudders.
  • [8:20] Zero Linden: Dzonatas - I hope that we will define most interfaces in terms of HTTP and URLs - and hence ipv6 vs. ipv4 will be transparent
  • [8:20] Saijanai Kuhn: hey, if I start another copy of the client with no mozilla lib, and stay on teh splash screen (not log in) I can get my fps down to .2
  • [8:21] Zero Linden: In those cases where we have to encode actual ip:port combinations, we should think about ipv6....
  • [8:21] Saijanai Kuhn: which says to me the Mac client has some serious issues
  • [8:21] Dzonatas Sol: good good, i agree
  • [8:22] Tree Kyomoon: still cant find a definition for "anthropormotigize"
  • [8:22] Dr Scofield: zero, which cses are those?
  • [8:22] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, we were talking about using IPv6 to replace UUIDs by addresse, saving data since the ID is implicit in the address :-)
  • [8:22] Arawn Spitteler: IP Addressing for each Prim?
  • [8:23] Dr Scofield: couldn't you do that via DNS?
  • [8:23] Dr Scofield: dynamic DNS even?
  • [8:23] Morgaine Dinova: Not just prim, every singe referenceable object :-)
  • [8:23] Saijanai Kuhn: thought DNS was getting saturated
  • [8:23] Rex Cronon: that might be impossible
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: Well, IPv6 isn't going to appear everywhere tomorrow - and it still doesn't solve firewall issues
  • [8:24] Dr Scofield: what might be impossible
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: BUT
  • [8:24] Goldie Katsu: The security of DNS (if exposed externally) does leave something to be desired (at least current commen implementaitions.)
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: I want to finish the other discussion
  • [8:24] Rex Cronon: ip addressing for each object
  • [8:24] Gareth Ellison: hi
  • [8:24] Zha Ewry: leans in to listen to Zero finish
  • [8:24] Goldie Katsu: listens too
  • [8:24] Zero Linden: Morgaine - ah, is your concern that we have not demonstrated enough why the things inside the green box will be scalable?
  • [8:24] Morgaine Dinova: DNS is extraordinarily heavyweight compare to implicit data-less referencing by IPv6 IP address ;-)
  • [8:24] Rex Cronon: .
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: (doesn't konw what is meant by "implicit data-less referencing")
  • [8:25] Gareth Ellison: let me guess - i'm just in time for missing everything here
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: (hopes folks aren't thinking of allocating an IPv6 to every object....)
  • [8:25] Saijanai Kuhn: you missed the sim crash
  • [8:25] Gareth Ellison: heh
  • [8:25] Goldie Katsu: No you are here for the good part Gareth.
  • [8:25] Gareth Ellison: won't distract
  • [8:25] Dr Scofield: the question is: are the rights things in those green boxes?
  • [8:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: "UUID held in address, as opposed to transferred as data"
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: Well, IPv6 isn't an appropriate vechile for that, URLs are
  • [8:26] Dr Scofield: again, if i understand morgaine correctly
  • [8:26] Zha Ewry: Do the green boxes encapculate things whch allow us to have a scalable set of inetractoins between them
  • [8:26] Morgaine Dinova: It was just an AWGroupies rambling, we weren't proposing it Zero :-)
  • [8:26] Goldie Katsu: But back to the green boxes
  • [8:26] Gareth Ellison: err, are discussing IPv6 for object with LSL scripts?
  • [8:26] Goldie Katsu: (much more environmentally friendly than black boxes)
  • [8:26] Gareth Ellison: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [8:26] Saijanai Kuhn: I think were discussing scaling with appropriate strategies
  • [8:27] Zero Linden: <voice type="lily tomlin">STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT CAKE</voice> (where cake = IPv6)
  • [8:27] Goldie Katsu: Yes, IPv6/DNS was a side topic.
  • [8:27] Dr Scofield: green boxes
  • [8:27] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: on regions, yes, my concern is that green AND BLUE region domain boxes are non-scalable. Scalability being one of the twin pillars of AWG, that particular scalability is my concern.
  • [8:27] Zha Ewry: green boxes, red lines, analsysis of state sharing needed toget scalable
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: AH okay,
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: SO
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: IF we can demonstrate to ourselves that we think we can build a scalable implemetnation inside the boxes
  • [8:28] Dzonatas Sol: Morgain, I believe the authenication layer is the biggest impact on scalability, that is being addressed first. At least at next tuesday's meeting
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Green egion domain boxes don't yet exist though, so hand waving there. That's why the worry is blue currently.
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: THEN we will be happy with the abstraction OUTSIDE the boxes that a region = 65k sq. m. = one end point = one unit of connection and caching
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: EVEN THOUGH we understand that the implemetnation
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: has enough freedom to choose
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: either MORE or LESS resources per simulated region
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: yes. Abstraction is fine, it's a prime tennet of our work. But can't ignore what's behind it if one's goal is to relieve the bottlenecks being suffered right now in events.
  • [8:30] Zha Ewry: glances at Zero..."From an archietcture perspective, how wedded are you to the current tesselation?"
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: I think the abstraction OUTSIDE the boxes makes management in the viewer and in the agent domain, etc, etc... easier, but I admit it is a somewhat arbitrary bound
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: (sort of like the bound between the authority section (host:ip) of a URL and the rest of the path)
  • [8:30] Tree Kyomoon: zero, before this ends, I did have a general question about who to talk to about communicating directly with the agni server via http?
  • [8:31] Zero Linden: "the agni server"? Well, you know, god is always open to direct communication!
  • [8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: YOu can even spit on him as long as you're consistent. Wait, that's Shiva
  • [8:31] Zero Linden: But I don't know if s/he has port 80 open!
  • [8:31] Zha Ewry: snorts a little at Zero
  • [8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: completely different tack, but with same goal: "How can I help remove the hard ceiling on event attendance?"
  • [8:32] Rex Cronon: i don't think u bother god to answer network questions:)
  • [8:32] Arawn Spitteler: Different Metaverse.
  • [8:32] Zero Linden: Morgaine - good way to phrase it
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: who could I follow up with?
  • [8:32] Gareth Ellison: problem with abstracting the individual regions and treating them as one unit if they may have multipled network hosts behind them - how do you handle telling the viewer or another client to talk to another host?
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: thepope?
  • [8:32] Gareth Ellison: can't really treat the region as a complete black box on that point
  • [8:32] Saijanai Kuhn: G.O.D. ala G.E.B.?
  • [8:32] Zha Ewry: You don't Gareth, you let the TCP/IP spec handle it
  • [8:32] Gareth Ellison: "agni server" means "login server" to tree i think
  • [8:33] Zero Linden: Okay, I think there are two things that have tobe done to enable 1000 person events
  • [8:33] Tree Kyomoon: yes, the login server
  • [8:33] Gareth Ellison: Zha: hmm? TCP/IP does redirects at the apllication layer now?
  • [8:33] Gareth Ellison: Tree: i'd look at libsl for all that
  • [8:34] Zha Ewry: If you have multiple hosts behind the abstractoin, yes
  • [8:34] Zero Linden: 1) We need some way to signal a lower fidelity of avatar to the viewer: Right now every avatar in your region incurs the same expense to the viewer in both rendering and network bandwidth
  • [8:34] Morgaine Dinova: TCP doesn't do redirects. You can do them with ICMP, but that has security implications, don't go there.
  • [8:34] Gareth Ellison: less detailed mesh would do that
  • [8:34] Zero Linden: So, for a 1000 person events, the sim and viewer will have to have some way to say: "Those 900 avatars? Don't bother sending me thier gestures...."
  • [8:34] Rex Cronon: like based on distance, and number of avatars surrounding u
  • [8:34] Gareth Ellison: Morgaine: that's what i meant - how do you do handle redirects if you're telling the viewer to start talking to some other host?
  • [8:35] Zero Linden: Gareth - well, the viewer will probably need a different rendered texture for a low res. version
  • [8:35] Gareth Ellison: i was thinking an HTTP stream would send some kind of HTTP-based redirect to the new server's httpd
  • [8:35] Neas Bade: right, sort of progressive rendering for animations based on client saying "I've got enough"
  • [8:35] Gareth Ellison: hmm, avatar mesh is currently viewer-side and people do all kinds of hacks to get non-humanoid avatars - would be nice to send the mesh
  • [8:35] Dr Scofield: gareth, that's a possibility as well
  • [8:35] Zero Linden: 2) We need a way for the sim to be able to process the data in and out of 1000 avatars (not to mention the physics.... avatars aren't phantom)
  • [8:36] Gareth Ellison: or have only a few cached viewer-side
  • [8:36] Zha Ewry: Zero.. just to poke a litlte, how wedded do we think we are to the current tesselation?
  • [8:36] Zero Linden: Now, I'm going to assume that we have the network bandwidth for it.... there are plenty of examples of how to build systems with 1000 clients connecting to one end point, and
  • [8:36] Zha Ewry: I'm happy with it as a profile, a standard set of interactoins, that LInden implements, I'm less happy if it bakes in deeper
  • [8:36] Neas Bade: yes, +1 on Zha's question
  • [8:36] Zero Linden: having them get stream data in/out
  • [8:36] Arawn Spitteler: thinks Tesselation might be distinct from Tasseography.
  • [8:36] Gareth Ellison: +2
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: Well, you see, the tesselation has big implications for how the viewer manages resources
  • [8:37] Gareth Ellison: static 256x256 regions with 1 per sim process will limit you to the capacity of one sim process per 256x256 virtual land
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: the region as a unit acts a level in the caching system
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: and in connection management
  • [8:38] Zha Ewry: yes, it does, thus, I'm inclined to promote it to a profile level
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: While I could imagine a fully arbitrary system
  • [8:38] Zero Linden:  :
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: to wit
  • [8:38] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: sure, we always engineer solution to fit within the bandwidth and processing resources at both ends. Re viewer, that's not directly our baby, but the abaility for viewer and server to negociate reduced object download is crucial, yes.
  • [8:38] Zha Ewry: But.. it feels, oddly wrong to pin it deeply into the assumptions
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: you log in, you get given a connection for the location you logged in at
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: then the connection announces to you the geometry it serves
  • [8:38] Dr Scofield: ok
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: then as the viewer wants to display more things beyond that area it asks the current connection for an "introduction" for some area beyond
  • [8:39] Zha Ewry: That.. the self-desciprtive model, feels right
  • [8:39] Dzonatas Sol: Morgaine, that was one of the goals put into thought about the SLQSquid proxy... to redirect downloads away from the sims
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: it gets given a secondary connection to the new area, which announces the area it serves
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: etc....
  • [8:39] Gareth Ellison: Zero: are you familiar with old ID software games like doom?
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: BUT
  • [8:39] Dzonatas Sol: (SLSquid)
  • [8:40] Gareth Ellison: each level was cut into arbitary sectors
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: I worry that this scheme offers not much more value, and incurs some huge complexity on the viewer's part -- not to mention
  • [8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Dzonatas: interesting, I would like to chase that up later if you tell me where
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: the possibility of some hideous logical problems (what if two connections claim the same area?)
  • [8:40] Zha Ewry: Zero.. My thinking there.
  • [8:40] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to know what is meant by 1000 people in a sim?
  • [8:41] Zha Ewry: is that.. you have a registrey service, which, helps deal with a)
  • [8:41] Zha Ewry: and b) you define the handoffs nicely, and the hard bit is how to cue the viewer
  • [8:41] Gareth Ellison: has been pondering doom-style maps - use BSP to cut up a region into sims
  • [8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Can 5 sims share the same space but each only handle 1/5 the avatars?
  • [8:41] Zero Linden: Aside: Yes, I'm pretty sure we'll just make asssets referenced by URL, and hence, a domain can easily not have those downloaded via the sim if it wishes
  • [8:41] Gareth Ellison: the region is defined as a grouping of sims
  • [8:41] Zha Ewry: and.. if you don't do it.. you're really hurt, down the road, when we can do different tilings
  • [8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Saij: mental image: 20,000 people in a current sim meant 1.8m^2 per person, so it's not particularly tight.
  • [8:41] Neas Bade: well, the other thing is just to define what it means to be an edge between regions. Then you can have a tardis, where it's bigger on the inside.
  • [8:42] Dzonatas Sol: Morgaine, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLSquid_Proxy
  • [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Football match crowds are much worse.
  • [8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: except when trying to display 20,000 avatar lblels, not to mention handle physics for 20,000 objects
  • [8:42] Rex Cronon: think on vertical too morgaine:)
  • [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Dzon
  • [8:42] Dr Scofield: spatial arragnement is always an issue, even between region domains, unless you can only go from one to the next via TP
  • [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: on, nice idea!
  • [8:42] Gareth Ellison: so you connect to one of the sims andneighbours prefetch all your data, ready to simply toggle a flag turning child agent to adult agent
  • [8:43] Arawn Spitteler: In a Football match, more attention is paid to the field, than the seats behind.
  • [8:43] Gareth Ellison: so when you walk across, a single packet does the crossover
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: so why not have 5 sims all looking ta the same space, but only showing/handling the itneractions of 1/5 the objects?
  • [8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: you've made me think of the 3D city traffic in The 5th Element --- wonderful image!!!
  • [8:44] Rex Cronon:  :)
  • [8:44] Gareth Ellison: Saijanai: that could work if you keep physics synch'ed
  • [8:44] Zero Linden: So - to wrap up (we're over)
  • [8:44] Saijanai Kuhn: the static elements are shared amongst the sims
  • [8:44] Zha Ewry: So. Zero.. if we want to tesselate differently, we need to work to show you how to keep that sane on the viewer side?
  • [8:45] Gareth Ellison: Zha: as i said, do it ID software old school FPS style
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: Zha - yes, and show that there is benefit to some part of the system
  • [8:45] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [8:45] Zha Ewry: Fair desire
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: Otherwise, from an abstract perspective,the one connection per tesselated square is not such a bad thing to bake into the abstraction
  • [8:45] Morgaine Dinova: I'm already catalogued an *existing and working beautifully* use case for Observer Mode ... because that's used in Guild Wars. Fantastic scalability.
  • [8:45] Zha Ewry: I've a deep intuituion that we want to design for different styles, but then turn around and profile and engineer for current ones
  • [8:45] Dzonatas Sol: Gareth, idSoftware style is a compiled scene, it doesn't run dynamically
  • [8:46] Zero Linden: especially if we add the ability for a region to mid-interaction (or at startup) to redirect you to a different connection for a given square
  • [8:46] Gareth Ellison: Dzonatas - the basic idea of cutting up a large 3D space into sectors can be done dynamically
  • [8:46] Zero Linden: (so that, say, not all connections into a region go the same ip:port)
  • [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: actuallly, they have a painters mode for artists in ther latest online version
  • [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: but its only for inhouse artists I believe
  • [8:46] Gareth Ellison: the compilation of a doom WAD just cuts up the map using BSP and throws the data into a binary blob
  • [8:46] Zero Linden: So briefly
  • [8:46] PritamJaykar Jewell: Hi Zero =)
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: Since we're at the end here
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: this slide is the exception I alluded to earlier
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: If we want to enable this
  • [8:47] Gareth Ellison: all you need to do is send a set of points and lines describing sector borders
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: then SOME of the protocol inside the green box
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: becomes external
  • [8:47] Morgaine Dinova: It doesn't scale at all to subdivide regions in land space: [4]
  • [8:48] Zha Ewry: Can you go al itlte further, Zero?
  • [8:48] Zero Linden: Morgaine - it isn't a scaling mechanism at all
  • [8:48] Morgaine Dinova: But a new person has submitted a scheme on the wiki that scales wonderfully
  • [8:48] Zero Linden: it is a protocol management issue
  • [8:49] Zero Linden: For a viewer, there is no advantage to having 64 connections per one region vs. 1 connection per region
  • [8:49] Zha Ewry: Indeed a huge cost, Zero.
  • [8:49] Simon Pulford: heyas
  • [8:50] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: that depends entirely where the choke point is. The scalability is always limited by the least scalable link in the chain.
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: Right - and it isn't the network connection
  • [8:50] Zha Ewry: Can you say in words, for the chat log, what you mrean ubt "this" in the slide?
  • [8:50] Zha Ewry: *by
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: nor would it be the process that fans that connection out to how ever many processes you need or want for a given 65536 sq. m of land
  • [8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: physics? Drawing client side?
  • [8:51] Morgaine Dinova: Exactly, which is why our REST front ends don't worry me in the slightest. Experience suggest that they will be fantastic ... as long as the actual resource behind them scales.
  • [8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: are those the choke poionts
  • [8:51] Saijanai Kuhn:  ?
  • [8:51] Dzonatas Sol: votes at the issue to subdivide regions based on physics is given low priority and to place other scalable issues before physics =)
  • [8:51] Zero Linden: Oh - that in this slide, there is protcol that would be wholy inside the green box that is exposed as the region in Joe's garage needs to cooperate
  • [8:51] Zero Linden: with web services in the Second Life Self-Host domain
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [8:52] Zero Linden: Agreed, Morgaine
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: I think that's not too bad, actually.
  • [8:52] Dr Scofield: but even that could be hidden behind a VPN or so...or?
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: Tho...
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: the Joes garage issues, get you deepyly into trust and reliabilty
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: and how you deal with Joe's assets server being gone for the day
  • [8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: and asset updating
  • [8:53] Morgaine Dinova: Suggestion to tie this down: examining the flows, bandwidths, max rough transaction rates at each interface, and coming up with an idea of possible performance limits (which isn't scalability, but it's relevant anyway)
  • [8:53] Zero Linden: So what we need to do is see if the architectures that people think will handle dense regions will sit happily behind the protocol abstraction
  • [8:53] Gareth Ellison: joe's asset server dies and nobody can download it's assets
  • [8:53] Gareth Ellison: people upload to their home asset server in the agent domain
  • [8:53] Zero Linden: One of the things is, I don't see actual proposals for possible implementations of dense regions
  • [8:53] Tree Kyomoon: any takers on "anntropormtigize" ?
  • [8:53] Zha Ewry: And.. Zero. my stake in the ground on the anlysis, is two fold
  • [8:53] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: there is a proposal now on the wiki, by a newcomer
  • [8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: a dense region ala the 1000 person concert? or what?
  • [8:54] Zha Ewry: we can only analyze in terms of the boxes we define, and...
  • [8:54] Zha Ewry: we can only make sure it *can* be done, not force it to be done
  • [8:54] PierreJoseph Proudhon: A lot could be gained by diversifying levels of trust.
  • [8:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: Zero can most definitely force it, in the blue boxes!
  • [8:54] Zha Ewry: he can for boxes he builds
  • [8:55] Zha Ewry: He can't when I host a conforming box to test a new part out
  • [8:55] Dr Scofield: just don't color it the wrong color
  • [8:55] PierreJoseph Proudhon: And levels of precense.
  • [8:55] Arawn Spitteler: Intercultural Platform will demand equal access to diverse ethical standards.
  • [8:55] Dr Scofield: got to go, train to catch, thanks for hosting us zero
  • [8:56] Dr Scofield: ye all
  • [8:56] Chase Marellan: isn't sure if Tree is kidding, but just in case, it's "anthropomorphize", or the act of acting like an inanimate object is a person.
  • [8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Remember that we're trying to architect SL's future architecture too, not just that of 3rd parties. Zero isn't designing to make only 3rd parties scale, he wants SL to scale, and better than most I reckon :-)))
  • [8:56] Tree Kyomoon: aha thanks Chase
  • [8:56] Chase Marellan: yw. :)
  • [8:56] Zha Ewry: Of course
  • [8:57] Zha Ewry: But.. Because of the web assuimptions, and the desire to be a web wide standard
  • [8:57] Gareth Ellison: viewer crash - funny considering how dense this particular place is
  • [8:57] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [8:57] Zha Ewry: you get both
  • [8:57] Gareth Ellison: Zero gone?
  • [8:57] Turtle: Hello,: Avatar!
  • [8:57] Arawn Spitteler: Zero's pretty smart, so gone is likely.
  • [8:57] Saijanai Kuhn: chee froze for a while and didn't realize
  • [8:57] Tree Kyomoon: I guess I will arbitrarily cut the log off here
  • [8:57] PierreJoseph Proudhon: I don't think you will be a web-wide standard based on one level of trust
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: FIE
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: crashed
  • [8:58] Gareth Ellison: my cognitive state is a bit screwed so i think i'll read over the logs later
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: He's back
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: okay well
  • [8:58] Tree Kyomoon: oh wait
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: So...
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: that is as good a point as any
  • [8:58] Tree Kyomoon: log still going
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: please post it - as I lost mine
  • [8:58] Gareth Ellison: (sleep at night is good)
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: I'm off
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: k
  • [8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: take care
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: thanks for all coming today
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: remember
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: Comment deeply on the wiki

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