User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 18

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  • [7:29] Morgaine Dinova: Wiki is working wonderfully, no more excuses for not working on it folks :-)
  • [7:29] Dr Scofield: darn
  • [7:29] Zha Ewry: Yeah Cory added 8K of ram to the ZX81
  • [7:29] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [7:29] Neas Bade: morning
  • [7:29] Tree Kyomoon: hopes they will let us embed flash in the wiki
  • [7:29] Wyn Galbraith: Too early for math, I just crawled out of bed.
  • [7:29] Zha Ewry: Or possibly rehosted it on a Atari 800
  • [7:30] Dr Scofield: that much?
  • [7:30] Wyn Galbraith: has an Atari in storage.
  • [7:30] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine did you enjoy the cynlindrian concert at Morris's place yesterday?
  • [7:30] Dr Scofield: better than storage on an atari
  • [7:30] Tao Takashi: maybe he just replaced the modem by some T1
  • [7:31] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: I went to 3 Cylindrian concerts yesterday. The one at Ratepoint was fabulous. I think she was a bit tired for the other two.
  • [7:31] Tree Kyomoon: oh wow 3 shows in one day!
  • [7:31] Tao Takashi: concerts marathon?
  • [7:32] Morgaine Dinova: SL musicians work really hard. And teh non-scalability shafts them, it's not fair.
  • [7:33] Tree Kyomoon: anyone know the agenda for today?
  • [7:33] Morgaine Dinova: Well that sure killed the conversation :-)
  • [7:33] Morgaine Dinova: Not aware of any agenda.
  • [7:33] Hypatia Callisto: sorry had to moderate Fashcon for a moment :)
  • [7:33] Tree Kyomoon: Fashcon?
  • [7:34] Nika Talaj: ty Hypatia
  • [7:34] Hypatia Callisto: Fashion Consolidated :) its a group for the fashionistas to send notices about new releases.
  • [7:34] Tree Kyomoon: cool!
  • [7:34] Hypatia Callisto: its huge, and the group chat, well, its pretty restricted because of how bad it is
  • [7:34] Morgaine Dinova: How big?
  • [7:34] Hypatia Callisto: over 2500 members
  • [7:35] Tree Kyomoon: thats a big group all right
  • [7:35] Morgaine Dinova: Same as Live Music Enthusiasts then, over 27000 in group
  • [7:35] Nika Talaj: even some nerds belong ;)
  • [7:35] Morgaine Dinova: Whoops, 2700
  • [7:35] Hypatia Callisto: yeah similar situation
  • [7:35] Wyn Galbraith: needs a new desktop, "This is so slow."
  • [7:36] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, I need a box upgrade before Xmas too
  • [7:36] Tillie Ariantho: Can someone please fix the crash-on-texture-upload-bug? :-/ that sucks a lot.
  • [7:36] Hypatia Callisto: sure does
  • [7:37] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all
  • [7:37] Turtle whispers: typically rude. He really means:
  • [7:37] Turtle: Hey: Goldie Katsu; Hey Dr Scofield; Hey Morgaine Dinova; Hey Neas Bade; Hey Tillie Ariantho; Hey Nika Talaj; Hey Wyn Galbraith; Hey AC; Hey Tree Kyomoon;
  • [7:37] Morgaine Dinova: Got a nice 8-core DL140 server to play with for this project, but need a workstation upgrade too.
  • [7:37] Dr Scofield: hi saijanai
  • [7:37] Goldie Katsu: Heya! Saijanai
  • [7:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Sai
  • [7:37] Goldie Katsu: Helllo Everyone
  • [7:37] Wyn Galbraith: Heya Sai.
  • [7:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Goldie
  • [7:37] Dr Scofield: hi goldie
  • [7:38] Morgaine Dinova: You're looking quite yellow Tao, heavy night?
  • [7:38] Saijanai Kuhn: so what's up with everyone?
  • [7:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Is this a Wating for Zero play?
  • [7:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Waiting*
  • [7:39] Hypatia Callisto: seems so :)
  • [7:39] Tree Kyomoon: evidently
  • [7:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Will he ever come, do you think?
  • [7:40] Morgaine Dinova: If he doesn't, other Icehouse peeps will probably fill in.
  • [7:40] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe someday if we're good.
  • [7:40] Tree Kyomoon: anyone here have facebook versions of their in world avvies?
  • [7:41] Goldie Katsu: I'll be right back - need to make some coffee.
  • [7:41] Goldie Katsu: YEah I have facebook for me
  • [7:41] Saijanai Kuhn: ESTRAGON: (despairingly). Ah! (Pause.) You're sure it was here?
  • [7:41] Tree Kyomoon: I do, Ive been trying to use facebook to promote/integrate SL
  • [7:41] Goldie Katsu: [1]
  • [7:41] Rex Cronon: hello everybody. i crashed about 10 min when i tried to tp here:(
  • [7:41] Dr Scofield: ah, zero incoming
  • [7:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Wait, that's not in the script...
  • [7:42] Rex Cronon: 10 min before*
  • [7:42] Dr Scofield: not?
  • [7:42] Dr Scofield: script?
  • [7:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero neer shows
  • [7:42] Morgaine Dinova: Reminded me of EverQuest ... "XXX incoming, one per message"
  • [7:42] Dr Scofield: should have learnt the script
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: hello all
  • [7:42] Wyn Galbraith: I just got facebook but used my online personna from the olden days, but used Wyn's picture
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: sorry for being late
  • [7:42] Hypatia Callisto: hi hi :)
  • [7:42] Dr Scofield: hi zero!
  • [7:42] Zero Linden: my computer needed a full reboot...
  • [7:42] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Zero
  • [7:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Waiting for Zoer, by Samuel Beckette
  • [7:42] Goldie Katsu: Hello Zero!
  • [7:42] AC: Hi Zero
  • [7:42] Wyn Galbraith: Elwyndas Raven on FAcebook
  • [7:42] Rex Cronon: hi zero
  • [7:43] Saijanai Kuhn: beckett
  • [7:43] Tree Kyomoon: hi 0
  • [7:43] Wyn Galbraith: Morning Zero. Song and dance.
  • [7:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Zero, just discussing SL Abusurdism
  • [7:43] Tree Kyomoon: great avvie rex! should we be aware of some outbreak?
  • [7:43] Zero Linden: Is that a use case?
  • [7:43] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [7:43] Dr Scofield: is that flame retardent, rex?
  • [7:44] Rex Cronon: thanks tree:) is a freebie, from "I am legend" a new fighting sim:)
  • [7:44] Saijanai Kuhn: fighting sims, should be the biggist use case of all
  • [7:44] Saijanai Kuhn: after the porn of course
  • [7:44] Dr Scofield: "it's not mandatory to wear flame retardent suits when participating in AWGroupies...but it is recommended." --- lol
  • [7:44] Rex Cronon: is kind of cool but a little laggy. close to 14k prims in that sim:(
  • [7:44] Saijanai Kuhn: of course, with Goreans, you get the ..best... of both worlds
  • [7:44] Morgaine Dinova: Well one day SL will be a gaming platform. Philip said so. :-)
  • [7:45] Wyn Galbraith: wants a new computer for Christmas.
  • [7:45] Rex Cronon: it is a biohazard suit:)
  • [7:45] Saijanai Kuhn: wants a new llife for Xmas, or at least a job
  • [7:45] Rex Cronon: and i never tried flames on it:)
  • [7:45] Dr Scofield: wants an openmoko for xmas
  • [7:45] Tree Kyomoon: I was playing the old unreal tournament yesterday...I think you could do most of htat in SL these days
  • [7:45] Morgaine Dinova: Dr Scofield: GTA-02 out yet?
  • [7:45] Saijanai Kuhn: have you seen Marathon?
  • [7:46] Dr Scofield: haven't seen it yet
  • [7:46] Nika Talaj: (whispers) is there an agenda?
  • [7:46] Rex Cronon: isn't that a very old game saijanai?
  • [7:46] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, THAT is a new usecase. Use QUickTIme as the playback for SL activities, but use the SL engine as the codec
  • [7:46] Zero Linden: see - now their talking a different language
  • [7:46] Hypatia Callisto: I remember it from my aol days :)
  • [7:46] Wyn Galbraith: Job would in surethe computer Saijanai, so that's a given ;)
  • [7:46] Hypatia Callisto: peeps installed it surreptitiously on the mac network and played it :p
  • [7:46] Saijanai Kuhn: that's a real idea, BTW
  • [7:47] Zero Linden: OK - Welcome all to my office hoursee ... yadda yadda yadda - transcripts posted - blah blah woof woof - Welcome!
  • [7:47] Saijanai Kuhn: 'The original Marathon game used that strategy and could replay anhour's network gameplay using a 250KB Quicktime file
  • [7:47] Tree Kyomoon: Zero did you get my note about hearing that someone from Linden Labs was apparently meeting with people at Adobe about something ?
  • [7:47] Saijanai Kuhn: All it recorded were mouse movements and keystrokes
  • [7:47] Zero Linden: Now - I've started to paw through the wiki stuff and I have some observations
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: First and foremost - pages are toooooooo looooooong
  • [7:48] Rex Cronon: so many things on wiki. which ones did u read?
  • [7:48] Morgaine Dinova: Folks, a quick notice, now that the wiki's problems seem to have ended: VAGs need contributors (list of current VAGs down the bottom): [2]
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: please break topics out into separate pages
  • [7:48] Saijanai Kuhn: nods
  • [7:48] Wyn Galbraith: Oos, observations!
  • [7:48] Zero Linden: Especially Discussion pages
  • [7:48] Saijanai Kuhn: nods even more vigorously, endangering himself and others
  • [7:48] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: yep, I've done that on scalability, workin to reduce that Talk page now.
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: which in many places have become whole topics unto their own
  • [7:49] Morgaine Dinova: Hence the VAGs ... now those discussions can be all separate.
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: let's keep discussion pages for discussion about just the page it refers to - when things get into more than, say , two or three paragaphs of information - start thinking about new page
  • [7:49] Zero Linden: when it is 10 paragarphs - new page for sure
  • [7:49] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [7:50] Morgaine Dinova: Except Brainstorming? Or not?
  • [7:50] Zero Linden: Even brainstorming - if you feel that it needs to be structurally linked to some main page, then use sub-pages
  • [7:50] Dr Scofield: how about using an "AWG" as a wiki namespace?
  • [7:50] Saijanai Kuhn: brainstorming needs to get factored out once something gets longer than a page or 2
  • [7:51] Saijanai Kuhn: 30 items = 60 pages
  • [7:51] Zero Linden: Dr. - I'll talk to RobLa about that
  • [7:51] Dr Scofield: would make searches easier and keep arch stuff ( == future stuff) separate from the current SL stuff
  • [7:52] Dr Scofield: thx
  • [7:52] Zero Linden: Now, the other thing is this - I want to set up the expectations about how this seems likely to proceed over the next year
  • [7:52] Morgaine Dinova: I see how to refactor the Analysis sections of Brainstorming. The rest is going to be difficult.
  • [7:52] Neas Bade: zero: great :)
  • [7:52] Saijanai Kuhn: if its more than a page or two, it just gets its own page and a URL back to BS
  • [7:52] Dr Scofield: we should come up with a road map of topics
  • [7:52] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: Zha wrote a section on Process, it's quite comprehensive.
  • [7:53] Saijanai Kuhn: also, any page created by an W Groupy member should get an AW Grouiy tag
  • [7:53] Saijanai Kuhn: category
  • [7:54] Dr Scofield: right!
  • [7:54] Saijanai Kuhn: that way its indexed to our page instead of the AWG page
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: Well, I'm trying to set a meta expectations,
  • [7:54] Saijanai Kuhn: which should be kept clean of speculation until we make stuff more manageable
  • [7:54] Zero Linden: I think that will inform Zha's process page a bit
  • [7:55] Zha Ewry: pricks up her ears
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: Recognize that LL wants to make incremental progress toward this grander future
  • [7:55] Zero Linden: And while it is excellent to have all possible use cases inform the design, in the interests of getting something working,
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: we will often have to proceed without full community agreement on all uses cases
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: that's okay
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: It also means that we won't be able to do everything out of the starting gate
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: In fact, there should be no starting gate at all
  • [7:56] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: This is going to be a long, slow slide into a home run
  • [7:56] Neas Bade: zero: definitely understand that. I think we've all gotten wipped up with all the possibilities, but infinite possibilities lead to no ability to implement :)
  • [7:56] Zha Ewry: You'll find that desire in the acual process
  • [7:56] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, so LL might well wish to just pick and choose from the overall picture.
  • [7:56] Zero Linden: notes that's the first and last time you'll ever hear Zero use a baseball metaphore
  • [7:56] Zha Ewry: Includnig words likte stepwise implementation
  • [7:57] Zha Ewry: And.. *EVERYONE* feedback comment, input on the process page!
  • [7:57] Hypatia Callisto: hee
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: Indeed, LL will
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: It also means that LL will take a deeper interest in some parts first
  • [7:57] Zero Linden: and leave other parts for review and input until later
  • [7:58] Saijanai Kuhn: before all else... IM?
  • [7:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha .... yes please, let's design a scalable IM first :-)
  • [7:58] Dr Scofield: jabber
  • [7:58] Hypatia Callisto: group IM... oh please yes please :)
  • [7:58] Tao Takashi: I think first should come better feet
  • [7:59] Zero Linden: Now, this means a fine line to walk on the design issues:
  • [7:59] Morgaine Dinova: IM problems are really destroying group discussions at the moment.
  • [7:59] Tillie Ariantho: true
  • [7:59] Neas Bade: Zero, given that a 4Q goal for icehouse is a prototype agent domain, is that one of the areas we'd expect more depth up front?
  • [7:59] Tillie Ariantho: and the slow wiki does, too. .P
  • [7:59] Zero Linden: On the one hand, we want to make sure, that even if we aren't covering all use cases we know of at first, that we are comfrotable that the protocols will be extensible in the future
  • [8:00] Zero Linden: On the other hand, designing extension mechanisms and optional protocol pieces often get way out of control if not driven by functionality you are actually implementting
  • [8:00] Rex Cronon: shouldn't this be fixed first: bad packets from the server seem to crash the viewer, and to reset the router
  • [8:00] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, We're designing for scalability. That's very different to scaling, which is dependent on how much resource is supplied.
  • [8:01] Rex Cronon: that your computer is connected to
  • [8:01] Zero Linden: So we will have to walk that line - and trust that we are all smart enough to not box ourselves in, and that we'll figure it out in the future
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero. "One thing, I think we'll try to do... is link the use cases up to the things the influence, so we'llbe able to say:
  • [8:02] Saijanai Kuhn: looks worried, thinking about the client GUI...
  • [8:02] Zha Ewry: 'this area, here.. we know we haven't adffressed yet.'"
  • [8:02] Zero Linden: One thing I'm acutely aware of is that we can only hypthosize so far out - a year from now we are going to understand and know alot more about 2010, than we do right now
  • [8:02] Neas Bade: right, we don't have to invent everything in the next year
  • [8:02] Zero Linden: so I'd like to take the XP approach of not doing today what we can put off until tomorrow
  • [8:02] Morgaine Dinova: I think "trust" is the wrong word. SL1 was designed "trusting" that is was scalable, we heard from Philip and Cory. But it's not. We need to do better than merely "trust".
  • [8:03] Saijanai Kuhn: reminds everyone of the client
  • [8:03] Tao Takashi: speaking of XP, I'd like to see some sprint :)
  • [8:03] Zha Ewry: And.. one trycky question Zero.. that I intentinally ducked, in the process writeup thus far... is how we "force" consensus
  • [8:03] Tillie Ariantho: But when doing one thing, we should always have a look at all others, too. Some things in the lists are pretty hard to do if others before are done in the wrong way.
  • [8:03] Zha Ewry: Every standards effort i've seen (and I have the RL gray hair from them)
  • [8:03] Rex Cronon: voting?
  • [8:03] Zha Ewry: sooner or later, needs to forge a consensus
  • [8:04] Dr Scofield: just ask me
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: No - I think "trust" is exactly the work we need have here - everyone in this group needs to trust eachother - trust that we are acting in good faith, trust that when we speak we are doing so to express an informed idea
  • [8:04] Dr Scofield:  :-)
  • [8:04] Zha Ewry: say 'This is the group's best guess effort and we'll move forward from here, even if there is some disent"
  • [8:04] Zero Linden: and trust that after we have spoken, even if others disagree, that we have been heard
  • [8:04] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: Gig's idea tacked that issue: by separating people into VAGs, 90% of discussions are separate. It's only when the viewpoints are merged that well-reasoned positions need engineering tradeoffs.
  • [8:05] Zha Ewry: Morg: yes, to a point. but.. being mere humans, sooner or later we will end up with places where we don't get c
  • [8:05] No Freenote: hello everyone
  • [8:05] Rex Cronon: hi no
  • [8:05] Zha Ewry: compleete consensus.. (at theVag level, at team, at subteams... etc) sooner or later.. we end up needing to say
  • [8:06] Neas Bade: well, VAGs only help a bit, because what if different VAGs come to completely different points of views on an issue
  • [8:06] Zha Ewry: "Here' is the best consensus we could get"
  • [8:06] Zha Ewry: Which will, as it always does, mean some poeple won't be happy, with it.. but.. you have to move on, or else you
  • [8:06] Zha Ewry: never get past the one person who decides that is should all be painted pink.
  • [8:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Well, it SHOULD!
  • [8:07] Tillie Ariantho: Neas: But the breakdown is good. For example I get pretty sleepy when talking about physics. .P Might be similar for others on different topics. :)
  • [8:07] Zero Linden: Now - Mic Bowman (RL) - has suggested that we need to work on a set of meta-criteria - or a framework for how we'll evaluate actual architectural decisions
  • [8:07] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I agree to a limited extent, but no further. If a person whose interest is another viewpoint says to me "This is scalable, trust me", that is not good enough. As engineers, handwaving without justification is not sufficient.
  • [8:07] Zha Ewry: (No, RL me hasn't been in a coop board meeting recently, about hallways, oh no.)
  • [8:07] Neas Bade: Tillie, I'm not saying VAGs are bad
  • [8:07] Tree Kyomoon: would that be something like a voting mechanism, Zero?
  • [8:07] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I'm not asking you not to be engineers, nor to not be analytic
  • [8:08] Zero Linden: I'm asking everyone that when the persons "I believe this is scalable, it meets X Y and Z criteria, and the algorigthms are easy to do" - that you trust that sincerly believe that
  • [8:08] Neas Bade: just that we need something more akin to typical standards chair to be able to declare rathole, and move on. I think that will be important at times.
  • [8:09] Morgaine Dinova: I think it'll be fine. We've resolved many things on the fly. The group works, as a team.
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: that you trust that they aren't being sloppy
  • [8:09] Dr Scofield: thinks so too
  • [8:09] Zha Ewry: nods at Neas
  • [8:09] Saijanai Kuhn: unless you can demonstrate otherwise
  • [8:09] Zero Linden: you are welcome to , and should, ask for details if you want, but you must start from the position of trust, the assumption of good faith
  • [8:09] Hypatia Callisto: agreed
  • [8:09] Morgaine Dinova: Oh definitely.
  • [8:10] Morgaine Dinova: And that's the professional approach too.
  • [8:10] Zha Ewry: There is.. and it's not out of bad faith.. just out of different perspective, or viewopints.. or.. cunfsion, or whatever.
  • [8:10] Zero Linden: The flip side is that the other person must trust that your questioning is well intentioned, not just skepticism or rhetoric
  • [8:10] Zha Ewry: Always.. a point, where people will disagree. and we do need ways to get though that
  • [8:10] Zha Ewry: Oh, and Rhino hide.
  • [8:10] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: very good point re flipside
  • [8:10] Zha Ewry: I strongly recommend growing rhino skin, and remembering it isn't personal
  • [8:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex has the SLRUL to those freebie suits
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: Okay - so
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: onto what I'd like to tackle first
  • [8:11] Dr Scofield: saij, lol
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: And perhaps these should be VAGs
  • [8:11] Tedd Maa: tacos?
  • [8:11] Zero Linden: No - I prefer burritos....
  • [8:11] Tree Kyomoon: cookies in HTTP request?
  • [8:11] Tree Kyomoon:  :)
  • [8:11] Tao Takashi: we don't even get any of these in good quality around here ;-)
  • [8:12] Hypatia Callisto: yeah, I miss them. :(
  • [8:12] Rex Cronon: sai, just searc in map for "ial"
  • [8:12] Morgaine Dinova: And on the wiki, if there is an issue, it's always best not to mention names, just in case it's taken the wrong way. It's hard to get actual feelings and desires across.
  • [8:12] Zha Ewry: (( ah, and a personal reques.. in the wike.. try not to just over write, but start in the talk, or IM with the person?"
  • [8:12] Zero Linden: 1) Criteria for designs and protocols - this is the meta-level work that Mic Bowman of Intel suggested
  • [8:12] Zha Ewry: ))
  • [8:13] Tao Takashi: I though you just add first anyway in a wiki and then after some consensus it gets cleaned up
  • [8:13] Tao Takashi: thought
  • [8:13] Zha Ewry: Add is goood
  • [8:13] Zha Ewry: Delete.. is.. difficult
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: 2) Base technologies (REST, HTTP, LLSD, caps, cHTTP, etc...)
  • [8:13] Tao Takashi: delete after discussion
  • [8:13] Zha Ewry: I'm much happierr with mess, then consensus
  • [8:13] Zha Ewry: then page flipping
  • [8:13] Zero Linden: 3) Login
  • [8:14] Tao Takashi: or page flipping
  • [8:14] Tao Takashi: that wiki will grow all the time anyway into different structures I'd think
  • [8:14] Tao Takashi: at least at the beginning
  • [8:15] Morgaine Dinova: Any latecomers, please add your VAGs at the bottom of [3]
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: Oh - ther eis also some base structural design
  • [8:15] No Freenote: OOOO...,,, Vag.
  • [8:15] Zero Linden: that we could work on now ("what is a domain?" "what is an asset?")
  • [8:15] Tao Takashi: I guess Login will be also split into design and implementation
  • [8:15] Tao Takashi: I think what I am missing mostly is some example of how something coudl work with all the technologies involved
  • [8:15] Dr Scofield: asset is hot :-)
  • [8:16] Dr Scofield: i think we should tackle asset and then domain
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: I don't think that that, however, is as urgent
  • [8:16] Tedd Maa: Morgaine; Send that as notice to the group so ppl get it on login/mail
  • [8:16] Dr Scofield: asset is currently topic on sldev
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: becuase for the most part, as an incremental process, those aren't going to change much in the next six months
  • [8:16] Morgaine Dinova: Tedd: kk
  • [8:16] Zha Ewry: Zero. I think we also need to be very careful about glossary/terminology.. in that we're constantly gettnig into
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: To be honest, I don't know why
  • [8:16] Zero Linden: an asset isn't that complicated of a concept
  • [8:16] Tao Takashi: well... :)
  • [8:16] Dr Scofield: thinks it's because ppl care about how their asset will work in an open grid
  • [8:17] Dr Scofield: psychological
  • [8:17] Neas Bade: ++ on glossary
  • [8:17] Zha Ewry: two things "The absract, casual name, like "asset"" and the formal "This is exactly what we mean by asset in terms of how we will use it in these six flows"
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: It is a blob of binary data, with a very small amount of meta data, a globably unique id, and a URL
  • [8:17] Morgaine Dinova: I'd be happy if Zero were to define "asset" unilaterally, because it is a subject of so much discussion.
  • [8:17] Zero Linden: Sigh - okay, I will
  • [8:17] Tao Takashi: but will it be linked to other assets etc. where are they stored and so on
  • [8:17] Dr Scofield: that def, is what we tried
  • [8:17] Tao Takashi: how to control their spread
  • [8:18] Zha Ewry: And.. note... All.. that we will.. often have two or three notions of the same thing. "ie the asset in the definitive asset store,"
  • [8:18] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone who is not an AWGroupy IM me or Zha for an invite to the group. Required for TPs to our meetings
  • [8:18] Tedd Maa: can it be streamed? ;)
  • [8:18] Zha Ewry: the asset in a sim at the moment
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: Access is controled through a different concept: Inventory item
  • [8:18] Rex Cronon: there isn't one single asset type
  • [8:18] Zha Ewry: the aasset as handed to the client
  • [8:18] Zha Ewry: Need to be able to talk about all three.. or more.. and be clear what we mean in each case.
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: Tedd - it is a standard, HTTP resource - so, yes
  • [8:18] Tao Takashi: Zero: then we'd need some definition of inventory item and how it is related to assets
  • [8:18] Zero Linden: But not via rstp: or other
  • [8:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: defining it doesn't come free .... you have to write it up with precision in the glossary :-)))))
  • [8:19] Saijanai Kuhn: proto-assets, and private user-data...
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: Okay - sorry, I realize that my familiarlartiy with how the internals are put together isn't always out in the community
  • [8:19] Dr Scofield: and what happens when you modify the meta data of a rezz'ed asset that you are wearing in a foreign grid
  • [8:19] Dr Scofield: and you return...
  • [8:19] Saijanai Kuhn: the internals in the client limit the client considerably. Make sure the same isn't true on the server side
  • [8:19] Goldie Katsu: Yes the internals are a bit shielded from the rest of us.
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: Dr. - you can't modify the meta data of an asset
  • [8:20] Dr Scofield: see..didn't know that
  • [8:20] Zero Linden: Please hold....
  • [8:20] Morgaine Dinova: This is VERY important material. In glossary pls.
  • [8:20] Tao Takashi: maybe we also need a definition of what is metadata and what isn't
  • [8:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Thing is, shielded from the outside doesn't mean that you should ONLY deal with such things internally. That's the route the client took and its horrid
  • [8:20] Dr Scofield: morgaine, will do
  • [8:20] Tao Takashi: and maybe an object is sort of a set of data sets
  • [8:21] Tao Takashi: but that probably gets too difficulty for now and might be added later if necessary
  • [8:21] Dr Scofield: zero, we've been assuming that you could change meta data (permissions, etc)
  • [8:21] Tao Takashi: but what should happen when you come back?
  • [8:21] Saijanai Kuhn: poihnts everyone to the discussions about OpenDoc's distributed documents from 15 years ago. They covered all possible cases except trust
  • [8:21] Tao Takashi: I geuss they still are changed
  • [8:22] Goldie Katsu: waits for Zero's unhold
  • [8:22] Morgaine Dinova: ^Q
  • [8:22] Morgaine Dinova: (oldtimer) :P
  • [8:24] Tedd Maa: LOAD "$",8
  • [8:24] Jetpack: All: Go
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: sorry -
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: kid trauma
  • [8:26] No Freenote: man..., nothing can brighten a persons day like inflicting kid trauma....
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: Dr. - well, no
  • [8:26] Wyn Galbraith: RL Interruptous.
  • [8:26] Tedd Maa: What VAG does script engine go under?
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: meta data on an asset is EXACTLY as per HTTP: things like content-type
  • [8:26] Dr Scofield: so, what happens when i change permissions?
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: permissions are not stored with the asset
  • [8:26] Saijanai Kuhn: first, we make the client scriptable, then we worry about which scripting engine to use
  • [8:26] Dr Scofield: ok
  • [8:26] Dr Scofield: not?
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: you and I can have references to the same asset with different permissions
  • [8:26] Zero Linden: happens all the time when objects are sold
  • [8:27] Hypatia Callisto: right
  • [8:27] Morgaine Dinova: Tedd: none so far. She's all yours :-)
  • [8:27] Tao Takashi: so these are references and not copies then
  • [8:27] Dr Scofield: so, we have something for permissions
  • [8:27] Hypatia Callisto: so its a rights thing
  • [8:27] Tao Takashi: will that also work in an open grid?
  • [8:27] Tao Takashi: question is probably more: how
  • [8:27] Zero Linden: Please note - scripting the client, probably doesn't fall under the AWG
  • [8:27] Dr Scofield: permissions are stored in references?
  • [8:27] Goldie Katsu: It wouldn't make sense to have it be part of the asset
  • [8:27] Tao Takashi: what if I am in disconnected mode and I want to use bought objects?
  • [8:28] Rex Cronon: waht u mean "scripting the client"?
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: Dr. - permissions are stored in references which are "inventory items"
  • [8:28] Dr Scofield: ok
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: both personal inventory and object inventory
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: Tedd was talking about server-side scripting.
  • [8:28] Saijanai Kuhn: ahhhh
  • [8:28] Tao Takashi: so an inventory item is a reference with metadata to the actual asset/object?
  • [8:28] Zero Linden: giving inventory means giving a reference, with possible modified access bits
  • [8:28] Goldie Katsu: so the asset is the data that describes what makes up the asset?
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: "metadata" is an incorrect term there
  • [8:29] Dr Scofield: so, we have: asset == pure data, reference == permissions/properties + ref to pure data, meta data== HTTP meta data
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: an invenotry item contains data ( the permissions) and a reference
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: yes
  • [8:29] Tao Takashi: for me permissions are also metadata, just a different kind of metadata ;-)
  • [8:29] Dr Scofield: description as well, i gues?
  • [8:29] Morgaine Dinova: Excellent, I understand that.
  • [8:30] Goldie Katsu: Then I guess we need to glossary what we mean by metadata
  • [8:30] Dr Scofield: will update the glossary with that
  • [8:30] Goldie Katsu:  :-)
  • [8:30] Tao Takashi: probably ;-)
  • [8:30] Zero Linden: Tao - generally, meta data means additional information needed to properly interpret the main data, running in a parallel channel to the data
  • [8:30] Saijanai Kuhn: pleads everyone to make adistinction between asset inventory and private user inventory
  • [8:30] Rex Cronon: link to glossary needed. please
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Metadata is purely transient by that definition. If it's not actually transient, then we need more info on where it's held, if anywhere.
  • [8:31] Zero Linden: Saijanai? what? no no - those terms make no sense
  • [8:31] Zha Ewry: Zero, in terms of http, and a get, what is your sense of how you get the metada?
  • [8:31] Dr Scofield: as part of the HTTP response
  • [8:31] Saijanai Kuhn: to a user, anything that appears in folders and lists in the client will be "inventory"
  • [8:31] Tao Takashi: I am still not sure how this works in a distributed grid with eventually disconnected parts though
  • [8:31] Zero Linden: Zha - well, there have been three schools of thought here at LL
  • [8:31] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, only 3?
  • [8:32] Tao Takashi: he probably only discussed it with 3 people ;-)
  • [8:32] Tedd Maa: that would make 4
  • [8:32] Tao Takashi: right
  • [8:32] Tao Takashi: 2 people then
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: how many schools of thought COULD there be on how to get metadata?
  • [8:33] Zero Linden: 1) it should be delivered with the HTTP headers, 2) it should be in a parallel resource (URL+.meta = URL of meta data), 3) the content should be a container type (say MIME or OGG) that has forks for main data and metadata
  • [8:33] Dr Scofield: HTTP headers!
  • [8:33] Tedd Maa: I agree on #3 because of limitations in 1&2, but also for future support
  • [8:34] Zero Linden: None are totally satisfactory - though 1) would be cleanest, but off-the-shelf HTTP stores don't support very much of it (generally only content-type, language)
  • [8:34] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good summary
  • [8:34] Tedd Maa: 1 and 2 are easy to implement though
  • [8:34] Neas Bade: ++ on MIME approach
  • [8:34] Zha Ewry: the probem with 1 is you get it alot
  • [8:34] Zero Linden: 2 is very easy to incrementally add to our current asset system - only it wastes tons of disk
  • [8:34] Zero Linden: Actually, I'm the guy who nixed MIME
  • [8:34] Zha Ewry: the nice thing about 2 + 3 is you can duck lugging around as much
  • [8:35] Tedd Maa: This is exactly same problem mails had at one point
  • [8:35] Neas Bade: doh :)
  • [8:35] Zero Linden: MIME is, alas, a very old format, with many many concessions to RFC822 -
  • [8:35] Dr Scofield: cringes @ MIME
  • [8:35] Tree Kyomoon: Finally! Someone else anti mime, man I hate MIME
  • [8:35] Neas Bade: multi-part-mixed won't work here?
  • [8:35] Zero Linden: and really doing header folding and arcane escaping
  • [8:35] Dr Scofield: don't!
  • [8:35] Neas Bade: well, fair enough on the boundary stuff
  • [8:35] Dr Scofield: don't make us do that!
  • [8:36] Zero Linden: Neas - if you look carefully at HTTP and MIME, you'll see that the outermost layer of an HTTP response looks superficially like MIME but very much isn't
  • [8:36] Tedd Maa: MIME is not necessary as we are not running with 7-bit buckets, so something better is better *sigh*
  • [8:36] Neas Bade: yes, agreed
  • [8:36] Zero Linden: infact there are some famous early web design posts in which the HTTP folks decry that there is no way in hell they are going to do the goofy stuff MIME requires
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: Turns out that when we looked at doing MIME we didn't want to do them either.
  • [8:37] Morgaine Dinova: School of thought #2 just defers the problem, because when you query the separate metadata resource, the same options of #1 and #3 apply.
  • [8:37] Neas Bade: ok, I'm persuaded
  • [8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Im for #1, seems like that is the path of least resistance
  • [8:37] Dr Scofield: applauds LL
  • [8:37] Zero Linden: For example, there is no content-length in mime- it is defined by borders - which you have to ensure don't appear in your data - which basically means no binary formats
  • [8:38] Tedd Maa: Should not the content also be a metadata type?
  • [8:38] Dr Scofield: or, yuck, Base 64 encoding
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks about xml...
  • [8:38] Turtle: xml...?: <snort>
  • [8:38] Turtle thinks: Saijanai is full of himself
  • [8:38] Tedd Maa: like I said, LOAD "$",8 <- dir index is a file
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: Okay - one last quick thing - as we are over
  • [8:38] Zero Linden: "Agent" -
  • [8:39] Tedd Maa: AVI encapsulation?
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: I'm trying to define that portion of your identity that an Agent Domain holds
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: avi encapsulation?
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: right now, we all just have one
  • [8:39] Dr Scofield: prepare to be assimilated
  • [8:39] Zha Ewry: Zero..
  • [8:39] Neas Bade: if you are going to do encapsulation, at least use ogg which is open spec
  • [8:39] Neas Bade: listens attentively to Zero
  • [8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, I want agents better defined, because avatars will need selective or variant handling for scalability ... yet the agent remains fixed.
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: avatar tracks in QT
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: but we agree that we will have several "parts" to a single identity, held by different agent domains
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: can I use "Agent" to mean this? or does anyone have a better term
  • [8:40] Zha Ewry: When you look at that, I think it probably needs be done such that we get to package the services somewhat seperately from the domaines
  • [8:40] Rex Cronon: so there will be a different domain for each of may body parts:)
  • [8:40] Tedd Maa: Saij; If the data protion is just a metadata field one can assume other fields can contain equally large chunks of binary data. streaming these in parallel might be something one wants in the future, AVI is one of the formats that can do that (just a encapsulation format for multiple datastreams)
  • [8:40] Dr Scofield: what are those parts?
  • [8:41] Tao Takashi: So an agent is some SL profile with inventory attached but you can attach many agents to an identity?
  • [8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL. The entire world chose QT and you want to go with AVI???
  • [8:41] Rex Cronon: i will be distributed accross multiple domains:)
  • [8:41] Tedd Maa: Saij; AVI has nothing to do with movies
  • [8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: neither does QQT
  • [8:41] Tedd Maa: actually it has, but not in this context
  • [8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: QT
  • [8:41] Zero Linden: For example: "my personal inventory of friends and clothes", "my work inventory of documents, work groups and access permissions for regions",
  • [8:42] Dr Scofield: possessions
  • [8:42] Dr Scofield:  ?
  • [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: In the current SL, identify:agent is 1:1 ... is that subject to change, in our general architecture?
  • [8:42] Tao Takashi: sounds like alts under one identity (==login and maybe verification/RL info)
  • [8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: look up the fight between MS and the rest of hte world over MPEG4
  • [8:42] Wyn Galbraith: would like that.
  • [8:42] Zero Linden: Well, the thing is, each agent domain (SL Agent Domain, and WorkCo. Agent domain in the above example), each act as my "agent" in different
  • [8:42] Zero Linden: transactions
  • [8:43] Dr Scofield: has to go
  • [8:43] Dr Scofield: see you all!
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: I actually have to go too.....
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
  • [8:43] Turtle: Yeah,: bye...
  • [8:43] Rex Cronon: bye dr
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: So! think about that
  • [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: See you DrS
  • [8:43] Tao Takashi: but will they show up both as Tao Takashi or the one as Tao Takashi and the other as Tao COM.lounge?
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: see you in the wiki
  • [8:43] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero.
  • [8:43] Hypatia Callisto: thanks Zero :))
  • [8:43] Goldie Katsu: Thanks Zero.
  • [8:43] Tao Takashi: cya Zero, thanks
  • [8:43] Neas Bade: thanks zero
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: Tao - I bet you want to appear in world as just "Tao Takaashi" with simultaenous access to both
  • [8:43] JayR Cela: thanks Zero
  • [8:43] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [8:44] Zero Linden: later all

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