User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 30

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  • [13:00] Morgaine Dinova: So, what news on the tech front?
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: mu
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: it'
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: it's close enough to the end of the quarter that my brain has stopped working
  • [13:01] Rex Cronon: i think that everybody is just waiting for the new year to come:)
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: yup. a lot of us internally too
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: gives a whole new reason to own a mac
  • [13:02] Jonit Ivory: oh Sai that will crash me if I open a broswer, but ok
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: freaky
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: uh oh
  • [13:03] Anamolie Poitier: wow, that's pretty cool :)
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: I like that
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: Does it generate MIDI?
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: it generates the data, but it has to be piped to a separatae program to get into a midi program
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: webcam => qc => OSCulator => midi sythensizer
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: from the pricking of the thumbs...
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: someone i thought would be on vacation today this way comes
  • [13:05] Rex Cronon: qc=?
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: basically, it generates a grid of regions and detects motion in each square and maps that to a function to generate the midi
  • [13:05] Morgaine Dinova: OMG, hiya Zero!
  • [13:05] Rex Cronon: look who showed up:)
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: I *AM* on vacation - but I came in for office hours
  • [13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Merry Xmas past :-))))
  • [13:05] Rex Cronon: hello zero
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Quartz Composer. Visual programmer for your graphpic card's DSP
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: zero have you seen this? [2]
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: oooooo Quartz Composer ---- I love messing around with that
  • [13:05] Nadine Neddings: gave you MB!CrimsonTowersAcorn.
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: I built a SL terrain editor using it!
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Zero's on vacation, let's not talk business :-)
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: I think that's very cool
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: I downloaded the software last night. Code looks li,e a plate of spaghetti
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: for quartz composer?
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: the qtz file
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: one of the lessor known features of quartz composer is that you can take the "patch" built in it, add it as a resource to a Mac OS X Cocoa program, and then "call" it from Objective C code
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: there's a link in his youtube to his website
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: using it as a video or graphic processing engine
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: I'
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: you should see the software that went into the guitars i used to monkey with
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: m guessing that starting with Snow Leopard, there's going to be a "big brother" for QC that exposes a LOT more of the code to the programmer
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: QC only lets you do "safe" stuff
  • [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Sai, we should be able to add MIDI programming into our client-side scripting. Use an NTP server for time sync, which is better than nothing ;-)
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: oh, actually there are a few panels you can "open" up -- I wrote custom Open GL shader code, incorporated it and used that in Backhoe
  • [13:09] Squirrel Wood: Hellos!
  • [13:10] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Squirrel
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: oh oh... we should get Craig (netjam.org) in on this discussion
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: [3]
  • [13:10] Jonit Ivory: may I throw some meat into the discussion?
  • [13:10] Jonit Ivory: Imprudence seems to be gaining ground...
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: i'm a vegetarian... but sure
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: zro, right, but the interfaces are all predefined. Don't think you can take full control of hte DSP from within QC
  • [13:10] Jonit Ivory: how much is this driving LL away from proprietary plugins?
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: Oh - I know Craig!
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: yeah! we've talked about that before
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: i think Zha knows Craig too from some weird set of connections
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: Er, "this"? which "this"?
  • [13:11] Morgaine Dinova: I know there's loads of interest in LL in supporting music making, but it never got anywhere.
  • [13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tera!
  • [13:12] Teravus Ousley: hello
  • [13:12] Teravus Ousley: happy new year and all.. almost...
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hey, maybe we could talk about AWG New Year Resolutions ... or is that getting too close to being work related? ;-)
  • [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine and Zero and Infinity. re MIDI and SL clients, was thinking that w can define an external connection point for generic plugins, and let 3rd parties define how it works. E.G. server/p2p for collaborative music plugin
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: work related is fine - I'm at the office (SL & RL!)
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!
  • [13:14] Larissa Vacano: hi ;-)
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: well... i've often said that long term... it would be nice if the viewer could simply turn into a message bus system with protocols for various types of plugins
  • [13:14] Larissa Vacano: sorry i am to late
  • [13:14] Imaze Rhiano: is there something like networkd MIDI already? I think that is huge problem to get everything synchronized to all clients and such...
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: there seems to be an interesting tension in thinking about things like MIDI in OGP
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: but that's a LONG, LONG way off
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Imaze there's a bunch of ways of doing it. goggle collaborative music
  • [13:14] Imaze Rhiano: ... I will...
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: some are OOS and some are proprietary
  • [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: not a long way off in the community
  • [13:14] Rex Cronon: hi. u r not late, things just started
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: gotta run be back in 20 or so
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: hmm... maybe i should login as Meadhbh instead of Infinity to talk about RTP
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: chat log mode on
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: On the one hand, one could imagine that once the presence of those around you is established, then the region could some how orchestrate (pun intended) the exchange of arbitrary streams of data between the hosts of the connected avatars ---whether it be P2P or re-broadcast
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: mmorphs into a bad imitation of a Power Ranger with a typewriter
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: but if we did do RTP, it would be trivial to embed time codes in the object update stream
  • [13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: do you mean the sim acting as stream replicator?
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: But on the other, then you get into the morass of "does everyone have the right plug-in?" or rather "does their viewer-system support streams in format X?"
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: AND - I'm pretty sure that most region operators/owners don't want to be in the buisness of arbitrary packet routing -- that is the provence of ISPs
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: ack. getting called away from the terminal
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: cheers all
  • [13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: there is no alternative, because we sure as hell aren't going to extend the viewer infinitely with what everyone wants :-) Having the right handlers may be messy, but at least it's viable. infinite growth isn't.
  • [13:17] Teravus Ousley: tc
  • [13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Infi
  • [13:17] Rex Cronon: bye infinity
  • [13:17] Imaze Rhiano: buy infinity
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: Blythe yule and a guid hogmanay
  • [13:18] Rex Cronon: bye*
  • [13:18] Imaze Rhiano: bye...
  • [13:18] Morgaine Dinova: Ditto, and look after the liver ;-)
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: right - so the thing to navigate, in my mind, is at what level do we negotiate and orchestrate handlers?
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: do streams come from regions? is proximity built in (you get the stream as long as you are in X meters of it?)
  • [13:18] Morgaine Dinova: It's kind of like the GM problem.
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: are streams rooted in a location? a parcel? a region?
  • [13:19] Morgaine Dinova: It was all a mess until GM was defined
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: do they get proximal, one-to-one, and multi-avatar styles like text chat?
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: How about decouple stream endpoints entirely from VWs ... they can always be assigned if need be.
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: well - in that case, what role is the VW playing at all?
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: why then, would Craig's netjam protocol have anything to do with OGP?
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: It provides the model to which things are coupled
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: but again - all the things I mentioned are aspects one may, or may not, want to take into consideration when providing an "introduction" to initiate another protocol
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: and then there is control -- it isn't enough to start it....
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: for example - suppose one had a midi streaming system - well, when I walk up to it in world we want it to connect and when I walk away it should stop...
  • [13:23] Morgaine Dinova: This is slightly LSD'ish, but media endpoints could themselves be the resources of a virtual world that doesn't look like SL's very RL-ish one.
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: and perhaps there is volume control associated with distance...
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: true 'nuf
  • [13:24] Morgaine Dinova: "Music of the spheres" .... see the music sources as points in the sky, pull them down, open them up? ;-)
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: hmmmmm......
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Dang, what we really need is to be able to extend the events system in SL.
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Could OGP help there at all? Our events system is so limited.
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: as in the "events calendar"?
  • [13:26] Morgaine Dinova: No no, computing events
  • [13:26] Morgaine Dinova: Programmer level, hehe
  • [13:26] Morgaine Dinova: States, events, etc
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: If we run handlers, we want to trigger them on events. Not everying is a continuous stream.
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: well, were this more like Croquet and written in Smalltalk -- or uniformly in Java, then I suppose the event system *could* be more generalized
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: but - it isn't
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Come to think of it, the stream is just the event carrier. In that case, we need to map in-world events onto that stream.
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: i suppose one option is to just reinvent CORBA --- or even just use it!
  • [13:28] Teravus Ousley: yep, and we need to contend with all the old ways of doing things sometimes
  • [13:28] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: we'd have to come up with a mechanism of Infinity restraint first. Kryptonite?
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: but really, we probably want a less general approach, and instead of defining an entire semantic OO model, just add a "event_type" field to the event map
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: and simply define an namespace sharing mechanism (like: "org.example.ogp.event.cartoon-stars"
  • [13:29] Teravus Ousley: heh, event_type (string or Uint Flags?)
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: Uint Flags?????
  • [13:30] Zero Linden:  ;-O
  • [13:30] Teravus Ousley: old way of doing things.. such as region flags :)
  • [13:30] Morgaine Dinova: Even simpler, just add to LSL an llRaiseNamedEvent(event, args) which send down a named event ... we pick it up in the viewer and dispatch to an appropriate handler.
  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: That would seem to be a sim-centric solution, but it's a start.
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: "hey, I know... they'll NEVER be more than 32 of these things..... let's save a few bytes out of several meg, and encode it as an Int"
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Well said Zero. Let's never do that :-)
  • [13:32] Morgaine Dinova: Named events should be enough though 62^256 ...
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: What? You don't want to enable named events in Korean? or Babylonian?
  • [13:33] Morgaine Dinova: They can program their own, I haven't cracked immortality yet ;-)
  • [13:33] Imaze Rhiano: I would like to have them in Klingon
  • [13:33] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
  • [13:33] Teravus Ousley: make them run their events through babblefish?
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: sorry, Klingon is not a Unicode script
  • [13:33] Larissa Vacano:  :-)
  • [13:34] Teravus Ousley: ahh, but U-8 or U-16?
  • [13:35] Morgaine Dinova: I like Imprudence's stance on these kinds of questions: We haven't got all day, so while you discuss it for the next 5 years, we'll do something. ;-)
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: actually, the character encoding is dependent on the encoding of LLSD used:
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: application/llsd+xml would use the full XML range of options, though UTF-8 and UTF-16 *MUST* both be supported
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: application/llsd+json would use the rather combersome JSON detection method - and I'm not sure that JSON requires support of anything other than ASCII -- which basically forces you into that
  • [13:36] Imaze Rhiano: .NET ---> mono uses UTF-16
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: and application/llsd+notation or application/llsd+binary are boht UTF-8 based
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: well, even thought .NET's strings are internally UTF-16, it can still easily read and parse incoming data from UTF-8
  • [13:38] Imaze Rhiano: ... famous last words
  • [13:38] Morgaine Dinova: Let's talk about something more interesting and ambitious than Unicode support.
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: well - anyway, yes, character enocding should be considered a closed issue: all transports well define what the character encoding is, and mostly everything can handle UTF-8 and UTF-16
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: done
  • [13:38] Teravus Ousley: nah, provide the proper xml declaration and it's ok
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: Hah - just wait until we start talking about MIDI encodings.....
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: BUT - speaking of the *other* events system, the "events calendar"...
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: ...I'm curious to what people think how that translates into an open grid world?
  • [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: It doesn't. Leave that to the Googles of this world.
  • [13:40] Teravus Ousley: that is a good question. some might argue the BBS method
  • [13:41] Teravus Ousley: maybe with an outside aggregator..
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: There will be no shortage of events listings suppliers, since it's an obvious profit stream from advertising.
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: Morgaine - then you'd expect that popular viewers would just hard-code a link to, say, "google.com/vw/events" into their search panels.... much as browsers hard code google.com for search?
  • [13:41] Teravus Ousley: .. such as google indexing each individual domain of events.
  • [13:42] Imaze Rhiano: ya... most of grids are going to have own calendar system - until some will implement superior googlecalendar system
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: Teravus -- "the BBS method"? bulletin boards?
  • [13:42] Teravus Ousley: yes
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: hey again all
  • [13:42] Teravus Ousley: individual domains of events.
  • [13:43] Teravus Ousley: with no real connection to each other.. except by .. an aggregator.
  • [13:43] Rex Cronon: wb
  • [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: that's one of the things we're working towards with client-side scripting. Once scripts can set up arbitrary viewer panels and create external connections, there isn't really any limit to what can be presented or by whom.
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: shudders
  • [13:44] Morgaine Dinova: The unknown is exhilarating ;-)
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: thinks about walking into regions where objects pop-up windows with arbitrary HTML on them....
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: popups don't happen in Firefox ... nor should they in VWs
  • [13:45] Blogland Oh: llDialog is not a popup?
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: oh yes - both points are certainly true
  • [13:46] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, good point
  • [13:46] Teravus Ousley: WebPage RTT ftw :) (RTT=Render to Texture)
  • [13:46] Jonit Ivory: llDialog to Yes an activeX control... shudders
  • [13:46] Imaze Rhiano: event clouds.. .
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: I think it is pretty clear that activeX controls are NOT a direction we want to go
  • [13:46] Morgaine Dinova: But llDialog won't pop up in Imprudence unless there's no handler for it (so it'll pop up by default). Given a handler, it could be suppressed, or handled automatically for you.
  • [13:46] Jonit Ivory: YAY :)
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Make the viewer work for you.
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, office hours an Enus' were taken over by me and Morgaine talking about plugin and scripting client side. I'm working on an AppleEvents like dictionary for pyogp that I think could be extended to any other sL-compatible client
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: just don't make my mother have to decide to install... or not install... any of a dozen or so various handlers...
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: e.g. login: firstname, lastname, password command
  • [13:48] Imaze Rhiano: how viewer is subscribing events?
  • [13:48] Jonit Ivory: LL has to give the client a trusted handler list
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: I'm sure someone will suggest a means for packaging default (safe) plugins, that's not a hard problem.
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: well, Jonit - then why not just include those handlers in the viewer and be done with it?
  • [13:49] Lim Catteneo: sai, yeah :P how about taking office hours to work out something of practical importance to OGP? like specifying agent-agent messaging protocol :D
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: Morgaine - it is a VERY hard problem --- look at the web
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: tut tut. Because the viewer does not scale arbitrarily.
  • [13:49] Blogland Oh: sorry to interrupt is there a calendar for this group so I know when to be on for the meetings?
  • [13:49] Jonit Ivory: because the viewer is open source?
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: because a universal scripting architecture for the videwer is probalby much easier, Lim
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: ah - this meeting is weekly -- Tuesdays from 1pm to 2pm
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: (I need to fix the sign)
  • [13:50] Blogland Oh: ah thanks
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone want a copy of CG's office Hours HUD?
  • [13:50] Rex Cronon: [4]
  • [13:50] Blogland Oh: I will barcode it on my brain
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: well- that's my point Jonit --- a LL "trusted list" is really no better than LL including those directly.....
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: We're trying to keep the viewer from collapsing into a black hole, with more bugs than features, simple through its size.
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: and as for "packaging them so they are safe" -- there still isn't really a good method for this for the web
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Huh?
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley: APPL IPhone Ap store with killswitch! not.
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: "because a universal scripting architecture..."
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: oh no - are we going to have a Python vs. Java vs. C# vs. ???? debate?
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: What does apt-get or emerge or yum do, if not to uniformly grab and install known components?
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, that was for me, concerning safety?
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: If so, I'm rooting for either Smalltalk or Haskell... or Io... or ....
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: We're not having such a debate, no. But Zero has just chucked in some FUD about it, so I'm countering him.
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: no, just the command strcture passed via an external connection, be it http, port, command file, command line, external script engine
  • [13:53] Blogland Oh: what are the concerns of Python vs. Java vs. C# vs. ????
  • [13:53] Teravus Ousley: true.. though that's 'downloading *new*' software.. and you have control over the list of sources you download from..
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: Morgain - apt-get or emerge or yum are totally unsable and unsafe for the vast majority of users
  • [13:53] Teravus Ousley: maybe someone wants to provide an index with an easy command to download them.
  • [13:53] Jonit Ivory: so handlers need caps too?
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: our plugins are all "new" software, in exactly the same way.
  • [13:53] Teravus Ousley: not really..
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: and none of them enforce safety or give assurance -- it is the repos they are configured to pull from that do
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: and even then they amostly don't
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: your world is not the world of all those present here then. ;-)
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: I'm thinking of signed ActiveX controls, and Java WebStart privledge dialogs.... .all of which attempt to do more than apt-get or yum - and still fall short fo rusers
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: There are no assurances in this world, except possibly death.
  • [13:55] Blogland Oh: and sleep :)
  • [13:55] Teravus Ousley: well, we're talking about the interface in the client to manage plugins here.. we're not really talking about changing it based on some downloads.. we're talking generic
  • [13:55] Blogland Oh: to die another day :)
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: Nope, Morgaine, it is not -- the world we need to make OGP work for is not the world of people comfortable using apt-get
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: I'm just saying --- allowing it all to be very modular with plug-in handlers and all - and expect there to be 100s of packages to choose from, etc.....
  • [13:56] Teravus Ousley: if someone wants to make an apt-get for known plugins, that's cool
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: doesn't really solve the issues of plug-ins for the vast majority of users
  • [13:56] Jonit Ivory: and dependency resolutions, who signs all of this?
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: we're on rung 1 of the ladder here. To try to make a perfectly safe system for grannie is really quite nuts. If you still adhere to your Project Motivation numbers, you will know that now is not the time for safety for grannies.
  • [13:56] Rex Cronon: why shouldn' users be able to down;oad whatever addon then want?
  • [13:56] Teravus Ousley: .. but, it probably doesn't affect the client interface
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: Rex- they should
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, the default condition should make it safe for Granny and not allow Granny to make it unsafe unless she's got a techno-nerd background
  • [13:57] Lim Catteneo: well if you're designing a plugin interface, base it on something that has proven to work. like firefox
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: what I wouldn't want to see happen is a scenario where encountering a content in world was often (>0.1%) accompanied by a prompt of "you don't have a handler for thiat -- would you like to download and install one?"
  • [13:58] Jonit Ivory: yes Sai but Granny may well miss out on the experience, an 2 tier Sl
  • [13:58] Goldie Dastardly: Maybe we don't need to make it safe for granny right now, but it would be good if it could evolve to that with the structure that is created.
  • [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: zero, I can see that happening in NEW worlds, but shouldn't ever happen in one you are already visiting unless there's been formal annoucement
  • [13:59] Morgaine Dinova: I'm sorry, but if you think that Grannie must hold the reigns of the future 60m region metaverse, then we're working to different goals.
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: see - there was this period of time in the internet when web content tools were indiscriminantly building content that required the user to download and install various add-ons
  • [13:59] Goldie Dastardly: I suppose it depends what "safe for granny" means
  • [13:59] Jonit Ivory: yes but ist should be inclusive
  • [13:59] Rex Cronon: u could make the downloading of the addon automatic:) especially if it doesn't require special privileges
  • [13:59] Jonit Ivory: not an exclusive experience
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: this was often done for things as mundane as drop-down menus
  • [13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, Granny wants to visit her son's new opensim website, not worry aobut hackers using her client to break into a bank (or whatever)
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: it didn't help that some of these things were "signed" by well known comapnies
  • [13:59] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: you look after her then, in these early years.
  • [14:00] Teravus Ousley: suspects this is a 'windows' vs 'linux' conversation.. .. Windows is to Zero's idea of usibility, as Linux is to Morgaine's idea of usability
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: the Mac model works here. Root isn't enabled unless you use the startup disk to enable the account
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: it created a nighmare of a browswing experience --- it was sluggish at best, and a security nightmare at worst
  • [14:00] Blogland Oh: wouldn't it be good for the granny group to set goals and the group who have other priorities to set their targets then meet up next weeks hours withthe results?
  • [14:00] Goldie Dastardly: you need some baseline functionality or a way to compensate for it (ala lynx if you are text only)
  • [14:01] Blogland Oh: I mean it seems like there is a division here
  • [14:01] Blogland Oh: for now anyways
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: so even right now - I bet you that of all the firefox add-ons you might have installed right now --- almost NONE of them are bound to particular types of content -- save your Flash plug in and your Quicktime plug-in
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Why exactly are we talking about usability anyway? Aren't the infrastructure ramifications more interesting, in this venue?
  • [14:01] Imaze Rhiano: MIcrosoft have system called ClickOnce deployment - it allows you to install temporally applications from webpages
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: Becuase infrastructure implicates usability
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: No it does not
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Zero, get back to being a tech, please :-(
  • [14:02] Goldie Dastardly: protocol may impact usability.
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: infrastructure enables usability
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: There are infrastructure choices we can make that will direct how content is built, which in turn affect the success of the system
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: And, thank you, this is the tech.
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: Becuase the tech of how we choose to make content available, and how we choose to enable or restrict, or channel the extensibility, will have a
  • [14:03] Goldie Dastardly: That's the implication of a layered model.
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: large implication on the viability of the system
  • [14:03] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
  • [14:03] Object: Hello,: Avatar!
  • [14:04] Blogland Oh: did everyone get kicked out or was that just me?
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: some did some didn't
  • [14:04] Rex Cronon: i wasn't kicked
  • [14:04] Blogland Oh: Ironman is first to rez, excellent :)
  • [14:04] Jonit Ivory: I was
  • [14:04] Jonit Ivory: hmm
  • [14:04] Goldie Dastardly: I saw more than one person disappear so I'd guess something in the net?
  • [14:05] Rex Cronon:  :)
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: half my friends went offline at once it seems
  • [14:05] Goldie Dastardly: (common point in traceroute?)
  • [14:05] Rex Cronon: a DOS attack?
  • [14:05] Chaley May: i am a survivor :)
  • [14:05] Goldie Dastardly: At least it is better than a Windows attack
  • [14:05] eaglefx Binder:  ;)
  • [14:05] Goldie Dastardly:  ;)
  • [14:05] Flight Band: All Go
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: There are plenty of ways to go about building a virtual world, which tech we choose matters --- navigating that difficult path between buildable, practical, deployable, extensible and general is the aim
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: WB all
  • [14:05] Goldie Dastardly: nods
  • [14:05] Imaze Rhiano: crash boom bang
  • [14:05] Rex Cronon: wb
  • [14:06] Zero Linden: I never left....
  • [14:06] Morgaine Dinova: Wow, everything went down?
  • [14:06] Goldie Dastardly: and for that we are thankful.
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: 20-30% it looks like
  • [14:06] Jonit Ivory: you're closer to tyhe colo than the rest of us
  • [14:06] Teravus Ousley: I encountered a client issue. 0x0000004 memory could not be read.
  • [14:06] Jonit Ivory: maybe even on LLNet
  • [14:06] Imaze Rhiano: "I never left...."
  • [14:07] Jonit Ivory: wb Zero
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: HA!
  • [14:07] Jonit Ivory: lol
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: and then my viewer crashed!
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: LOL
  • [14:07] Chaley May:  :)
  • [14:07] Teravus Ousley:
  • [14:07] Leezi Stine:  :-) webe
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: okay - on that note
  • [14:07] Jonit Ivory: pride before the fall etc
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: I'll say - thank you all for coming
  • [14:07] Zero Linden: I'll see you all in the new year
  • [14:07] Teravus Ousley: yep.. have a good new year sir!
  • [14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks for coming zero.
  • [14:07] Rex Cronon: i must be lucky:)
  • [14:07] Blogland Oh: thankyou
  • [14:07] Liznwiz Wei: happy new year to everyone from me
  • [14:07] Imaze Rhiano: happy new year
  • [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, chat log time