User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 17

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  • [12:52] Jamest Barnett: waits patiently for everything to rez
  • [12:52] Whump Linden: Afternoon, all.
  • [12:52] Jamest Barnett: Hi. Hi Zha
  • [12:53] Jaye Jewell: title off
  • [12:54] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWGroupies-2008-06-17
  • [12:54] Extreme Heslop: enter in my comunnity in the orkut
  • [12:55] Squirrel Wood: Hullo
  • [12:55] Alliez Mysterio: hi
  • [12:55] Extreme Heslop: enter in my community
  • [12:55] Extreme Heslop: in the orkut
  • [12:56] Extreme Heslop: playstation 3 mine community
  • [12:56] Extreme Heslop: who is crazy by playstation 3
  • [12:57] Extreme Heslop: hello folks!
  • [12:57] Alliez Mysterio: HI
  • [12:58] Hamilton Linden: Hi
  • [12:58] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: Hello all
  • [12:58] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Hamilton
  • [12:58] Hamilton Linden: Hey
  • [12:58] Extreme Heslop: youre where from?
  • [12:59] Extreme Heslop: im from new york
  • [12:59] Alliez Mysterio: me too
  • [12:59] Alliez Mysterio: upstate
  • [12:59] Zha Ewry: New York. Bah. Only crazies like Zha live there.
  • [12:59] Alliez Mysterio: I agree
  • [12:59] Alliez Mysterio: lol
  • [13:00] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: so how geeky does this chat get
  • [13:01] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: and does it focus on the hardware or the zeros and one or anything and everything?
  • [13:01] Jamest Barnett: I'm guessing quite geeky judging by the wiki link from Saijanai
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours
  • [13:02] Squirrel Wood: Hello Zero!
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn:  ???
  • [13:02] Zero Linden: heeeeelllo!
  • [13:02] Zero Linden:  ?
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Thought you were on vacation...
  • [13:02] Harleen Gretzky: hi Zero
  • [13:02] Zero Linden: I actually leave tomorrow AM
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: ah ok
  • [13:03] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: well thank you for coming here to chat with us first
  • [13:03] Hamilton Linden: / I'll only be here for 1/2 hour FYI, then gotta run
  • [13:04] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: wus that yer driking, Zero
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: coffee - always coffee...
  • [13:04] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: though tomorrow it'll be gin-and-tonics
  • [13:04] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: hehe
  • [13:04] Alliez Mysterio: Hi Rex
  • [13:04] Rex Cronon: hiii. we have zero. what do u know:)
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: so - agenda topics....
  • [13:05] Zero Linden:  ?
  • [13:05] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: first time here
  • [13:05] Rex Cronon: i thought u were on vacation zero
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: Well - welcome to my office hours - we are here to discuss the architecture of SL, present and future
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: We talk on the record - as the transcript is published up to the wiki
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: Welcome!
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: I'm not quite on vacation - but just 4 hours from it....
  • [13:06] Rex Cronon: hi zero
  • [13:06] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: thanx
  • [13:06] Jillian Callahan: waves hi
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: So, execuse me if I'm inching out the door..... :-)
  • [13:07] Rex Cronon: that is called dedication to your work:)
  • [13:07] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: well, just as long as that coffee cup stays a coffee cup, yer good
  • [13:08] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: ah, since I'm new all around, can I get an idiot's overview as to the meaning of archituecture is
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm causing headaches for everyone with https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1277 Request for policy clarification concerning cross-grid copying of assets
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: yes, saijanai, I think you are
  • [13:09] Squirrel Wood: I think I still need to vote on that one...
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: let's put that at the top of the aagenda
  • [13:09] j3rry Paine: argent's comments this morning are to the point
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: but limited
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: chuckles at headaches
  • [13:10] Dahlia Trimble: wants to be able to attach metadata to assets
  • [13:10] Joshua Nightshade: hi everyone.
  • [13:10] j3rry Paine: sai and argent are pointing fingers at each other, each saying 'not enought! not enough!"
  • [13:10] Rex Cronon: it might have been interesting to see what would have happned if people could vote no on jira:)
  • [13:10] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: well, he' not thinking in terms of overlapping trust and the other oddities we in the AWG have batted around fo r awhile
  • [13:11] j3rry Paine: see? lol
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: oy vey
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: okay
  • [13:11] j3rry Paine: that's why we love you, sai
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: let's get going and try to put some perspective on this
  • [13:12] Extreme Heslop: goodbye folks im going leave
  • [13:12] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: Bye Extreme
  • [13:12] Rex Cronon: bye extreme
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: So, Saijanai proposes a change that primarily signals to content creators that inspite of what this crazy AWG group is doing, the content they create today (and have created in the past)
  • [13:13] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: will be limited to "Creation Grid Only [Second Life Grid]"
  • [13:13] Adam Zaius: Seems sane to me.
  • [13:13] Adam Zaius: Unless you explicitly want it transferred, default deny is the least problematic option.
  • [13:13] Joshua Nightshade: I have to say that Sai's proposal seems pointless to me.
  • [13:13] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
  • [13:13] Connected undefined:
  • [13:13] Joshua Nightshade: and is guaranteed to inspire confusion.
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: The change is primarily cosmetic for now because you wouldn't be able to deselect it....
  • [13:13] j3rry Paine: a flag is not a substitute for an unambiguous license
  • [13:14] Joshua Nightshade: content creators already understand that content only exists in SL and can't be transfered right now.
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: hold that thought j3rry
  • [13:14] Joshua Nightshade: why does time need to be spent configuring a flag that is meaningless when it can be spent around an actual revamp of the permissions system?
  • [13:14] Teravus Ousley: notecard with CC, or BSD, or GPL, or whatever 1st life license that you want... :D
  • [13:14] Adam Zaius: Because it's not the same amount of time required, for one.
  • [13:14] Adam Zaius: Adding the UI option would probably take only a few minutes.
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: one linter in xml file
  • [13:15] JB Kraft: forgive me but, is this a legal thing or tech/protocol thing we are looking toward?
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe two-liner (well, 3)
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: RL - hold a sec
  • [13:15] Joshua Nightshade: But how many hours will be spent with screaming masses clamboring to understand why LL is suddenly allowing off-grid transportation of content?
  • [13:15] Rex Cronon: content can be transffered, with second inventory
  • [13:15] Adam Zaius: Well, the point is they wont.
  • [13:15] Squirrel Wood: A possible option that I could see being implemented is one where you can either select "this grid only" or "trusted grids" or "license based" where you operate either on a pre-defined license or make up your own.
  • [13:15] Joshua Nightshade: But without any education behind this people are going to be totally confused.
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: sorry - back
  • [13:15] Adam Zaius: Zero just said it LL-grid-only would be the only option.
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: This issue is to simply clarify what *I* think is already the case: can't copy assets off-grid without explicit permissions
  • [13:15] Dahlia Trimble: second inventory users would have know way of seeing the flag anyway
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: wait
  • [13:16] Dahlia Trimble: *no
  • [13:16] Joshua Nightshade: Second Inventory only copies content that you've created or have full permissions for.
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: so they would know to contact the creator directly until an active flag was put in place
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: So - the proposal itself is primarily cosmetic - as even if we did put in a database field to hold it - there *are* no other options for this value at present
  • [13:16] Joshua Nightshade: which is why it strikes me as irrelevant.
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: the point is, that many of us believe that you don't have permissions
  • [13:16] Adam Zaius: Personally, having the flag WOULD be handy to me.
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: If we *did* allow you to uncleck this (assuming that we did implement saving in the database)
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: That would be basically a signal about the shape of the permissions system in the future
  • [13:17] Adam Zaius: Being able to know which content I could transfer offgrid myself later when the option becomes availible.
  • [13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: could just be a line of text to remind people
  • [13:17] Dahlia Trimble: thinks adding asset metadata would appease all camps
  • [13:17] Joshua Nightshade: Sai, my copyright to my content supercedes anything else. I have not relinquished that copyright to anyone, including LL.
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: which, I'm pretty sure we don't want to declare without this, and other groups getting some involvement in that design
  • [13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Dahlia, yeah, but WHICH asset meta data and how does the asset server evaluate anything past a simple set of flags?
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: NOW
  • [13:17] Joshua Nightshade: I believe argent's proposal is significantly better.
  • [13:17] Joshua Nightshade: and isn't cosmetic.
  • [13:18] Adam Zaius: What's the JIRA for Argents?
  • [13:18] Joshua Nightshade: one second.
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: thin kits at the top "related to" section
  • [13:18] Teravus Ousley: wonders how the caching mechansim will handle perms on assets directly
  • [13:18] j3rry Paine: and encourages *more* educaton about the relevant issue
  • [13:18] Joshua Nightshade: [1]
  • [13:18] Dahlia Trimble: Metadata wold be specified by the creator, similar to the metadata they can add to many image file formats
  • [13:18] Rex Cronon: where can more info about argent proposal?
  • [13:18] Joshua Nightshade: j3rry, exactly.
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: If the goal is one of signaling some preservation the current permissions - let me make it clear: the open grid protocol will not invalidate or override content permissions
  • [13:18] Joshua Nightshade: without further information and education this is a clusterfuck waiting to explode.
  • [13:19] Joshua Nightshade: that's the link to argent's proposal.
  • [13:19] Adam Zaius: Hrrm.
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: If the goal is signaling - there are far better ways than adding this checkbox, functional or not
  • [13:19] ColonelKernel Biegeleisen: Zero, I offer you the chair
  • [13:19] Rex Cronon: ok, thank u
  • [13:19] Joshua Nightshade: which is to establish a field for a license.
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: ure, was a "for example" not the endall of possibilities
  • [13:19] Adam Zaius: Zero: I think we definetely need a machine-readably field where we can determine if something can be transfered off-grid, but having the ability to put in a license URL or similar would be very invaluable too.
  • [13:19] Adam Zaius: machine-readable(
  • [13:19] Adam Zaius: *
  • [13:19] j3rry Paine: argent's edited comment of this morning is most enlightenging
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: Argent's proposal is essential a click-through EULA, yes?
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: I think there are a lot of long term issues lurking here, but..
  • [13:20] Joshua Nightshade: Zero: yes.
  • [13:20] Adam Zaius: Zero: looks like extra fields for copyright information.
  • [13:20] Zha Ewry: We clearly need to do something before we let assetsstart moving
  • [13:20] Joshua Nightshade: and I think adding to that an additional three checkboxes of "Second Life only" "Transfer to trusted grids" and "transfer everywhere" is the way to go.
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: but they already are. Had a nice chat with the Second INventory author yesterday. He's positive he's allowed to let full perms stuff move offworld
  • [13:20] Adam Zaius: Checkboxes are too limited.
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: So - I'm not going to comment on Argent's because again, I don't want to signal a direction or imply in any way that there has been a choice at LL on this BEFORE groups have had the
  • [13:20] Adam Zaius: They dont allow you to say "This grid, but NOT this grid".
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: ability to be involved in it's design
  • [13:21] j3rry Paine: there has been concern about the "official" stance of LL about alternative grids
  • [13:21] Adam Zaius: The LL grid I dont think is the be-all and end-all of grids, so doesnt deserve special protocol treatment.
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: I've asked Xen Linden, who has done a fair bit of content forensics in SL in the past, to join me here the first week of July for two sessions to kick off
  • [13:21] j3rry Paine: requests have been made to memorialize LL's attitude.
  • [13:21] Joshua Nightshade: Well I think as content is coming out of SL they're well within their rights to assume the responsibility of deciding who they want to give "trusted" status.
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: some substantive discussion on permissions in the open grid protocol
  • [13:21] j3rry Paine: in writing per section 4 of the TOS
  • [13:22] Joshua Nightshade: short of a hundred checkboxes with names to "bob's grid" you're not going to satisfy everyone.
  • [13:22] Joshua Nightshade: an umbrella catchall is better than nothing.
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: right, which is why I said it was a 3-stage process: cosmetic rminder, either/or copy bit, and full-blown thingie
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: mmmmmmm Bob's Grid..........
  • [13:22] Joshua Nightshade: why not just a blog entry then?
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: oh
  • [13:22] Joshua Nightshade: if it's simply cosmetic?
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: A blog entry, I think would be better
  • [13:23] Joshua Nightshade: a blog entry of "Hey, don't take stuff out of SL, k?" will be just as effective.
  • [13:23] Tree Kyomoon: /wow everyone is a cloud of steam...this is cool
  • [13:23] j3rry Paine: a blog entry is not a license
  • [13:23] Adam Zaius: Actually
  • [13:23] Dahlia Trimble: a blog entry would probably get alot moe exposure
  • [13:23] Adam Zaius: A blog entry clarifying if we can take our own stuff out of SL would be handy too.
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: Oh- I meant a blog entry from me about "Ground Rules for an future permission system"
  • [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: I think a bit of text in the general area of hte permissions bits as a reminder wold be good too. That's why I suggested the non-editable flag
  • [13:23] Rex Cronon: why can't we have both what aregent and what sai propossed?
  • [13:23] Adam Zaius: There's still lingering copyright concerns over things built with prims and not brought in from outside.
  • [13:23] Teravus Ousley: well, ultimately, it means 'this grid or any grid'..... or 'a grid listed in a white list' or 'any grid'
  • [13:23] JayR Cela: hi Tree / hi Rwx / hi Zero / hi Zha :_)
  • [13:23] Rex Cronon: hi jayr
  • [13:24] Adam Zaius: Teravus: agreed.
  • [13:24] Joshua Nightshade: I just think a field right next to the permissions is going to confuse people.
  • [13:24] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:24] Joshua Nightshade: both those new to SL who think that means there is a way to get content out of SL and into a new grid.
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: Well - the big problem with Sai's proposal is that it involves quite a burden on LL support: as it will place this front and center infront of everybody
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: So -
  • [13:24] Joshua Nightshade: chat lag!
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: Let's consider some ground rules
  • [13:24] Rex Cronon: would a drop down box with multipple selections be better?
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: 1) We cannot break the expectations of existing content
  • [13:25] Alliez Mysterio: bye all
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: 2) But two, this new universe may make those expectations less clear than they were.....
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: 3) Any system that OGP uses will need to support a range of approaches to digital content
  • [13:26] Joshua Nightshade: that's why I think greater education is key. there are people who legitimately believe that LL can stop things like glintercept and copybot and choose not to.
  • [13:26] Teravus Ousley: <sarcasm> AppleDRM</sarcasm
  • [13:26] Teravus Ousley: >
  • [13:26] Joshua Nightshade: I don't see a cosmetic field next to the permissions system as being further educational personally.
  • [13:26] Teravus Ousley: (sorry, had to just for amusement sake)
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: 4) We should not expect that code will be the "law" --- code and systems will be an assist to what people and law actually agree to
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: That is correct - we (AWG & LL) will not undertake to produce a system that attempts to do more than is reasonable --
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: for example - there is no reliable or clear way to stop things like glIntercept
  • [13:27] j3rry Paine: there are those who think thehy have reserved *all* their intellectual property rights in sl, when the TOS mandates that some of those rights be licensed to LL and others
  • [13:28] Joshua Nightshade: j3rry, exactly.
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: we shouldn't attempt to build systems that are broken out-the-door
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: the only reason to have a flag or text note is to serve as a constant reminder. If you think that unwise for some reason...
  • [13:28] j3rry Paine: no offense, josh
  • [13:28] Joshua Nightshade: well none taken, I've never thought that. :P
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: Sai - it is just that at present I think that would generate such a high confusion factor and high support factor that it would overwhelm any clarity it was imparting to some
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: OK. I see what yo umean.
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: That is, until we have a full story
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: that we can clearly point to and explain
  • [13:29] Joshua Nightshade: sai, I seriously am not understanding why it's necessary though. I'm trying to figure it out and I don't. I think with all the confusion about what you can and can't do, a blog entry is significantly better.
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: (or at least most of a story)
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: Another ground rule, I think, I
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Joshua, I was not thinking in terms of support, but the 6x18 months rule in advertsing mention somethin 6 times in 18 months and people remember it
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: is 5) Do not expect code or meta data to encode fully what the agreement is - only an approximation
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: o if its only in one blog entry, most people won't know abou tit, even if they read the blog
  • [13:30] Adam Zaius: Zero: that's why we have XML -- for when we cant actually solve a problem. ;)
  • [13:30] Joshua Nightshade: well let's give everyone a link six times in 18 months.
  • [13:30] Adam Zaius: ducks.
  • [13:30] Rex Cronon: i think that what sai is propossing could be used as an intermediate step to argent proposal
  • [13:31] Tree Kyomoon: heh heh
  • [13:31] Dahlia Trimble: metadata could hold a reference to a notecard or a license agreement, or even a synopsis
  • [13:31] Tree Kyomoon: some problems are not for solving
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: Sees XML meta data about digital rights that exceeds the length of the digital object under concern
  • [13:31] Joshua Nightshade: haha.
  • [13:31] Zero Linden:  !
  • [13:31] Dahlia Trimble: many modern image formats have implemented metadata
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: Ultimately - total flexibility is both good and bad ----
  • [13:32] Tree Kyomoon: exactly...you want to write a tune? fill out form 37b, 43a and 56b in triplicate and file the metadata with the RIAA
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: Personally, the state of click-through-EULAs is so bad (they are all different and long and legal-ese) that I can't read them ....
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: I just click away and assume some normal social convention
  • [13:32] Joshua Nightshade: I actually include a simple notecard with my products that establishes my intended EULA.
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: Open Source understood this starting about 10 years ago
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: and has coallesced around a small number of licenses
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: and even there, mostly just two
  • [13:33] Rex Cronon: the existing TOS has a similar problem:)
  • [13:33] Joshua Nightshade: <3
  • [13:33] Jamest Barnett:  :)
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: CC understood this and has, over time, reduced it's license set to something small, clear, understandable
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: SO
  • [13:33] j3rry Paine: many comments in jira 1277 suggest clarification of the tos
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: don't even look at 1272
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: or you can, just for a giggle
  • [13:34] Joshua Nightshade: heh.
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: I think LL recognizes that once there is a design for a permission system that handles OGP, there will need to be a TOS change
  • [13:34] Dahlia Trimble: most modern content creation software packages have chosen the metadata route
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: this was meant to handle the external application copying, which is happening now
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: stage 1 and 2 are meant for external applications that is
  • [13:36] Joshua Nightshade: I use Second Inventory to copy my products into an offline opensim where I can build without getting a million IMs. and quite frankly I'm going to continue to do that regardless of what LL's ToS tells me. the people who are stealing stuff will continue to steal stuff irrespective of a constant reminder.
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: Dahlia - actually, I'd say only modern content creation software intended for creating large works with a history of complex arrangements
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: stage three is OGP territory
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: for example, my text editor, my image editor don't have such
  • [13:36] Dahlia Trimble: or differing license requiremnts
  • [13:36] Dahlia Trimble: photoshop has it
  • [13:36] j3rry Paine: by "this" do you mean 1277 suggesting a flag to address theambiguity of the TOS?
  • [13:36] Teravus Ousley: I dunno if the urgency is necessary.. given the state of affairs have not changed..
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Joshua, I dobut anyone is going to ojbect about an OPenSIm that only you know about
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: really - only software has such a mess
  • [13:37] Joshua Nightshade: if the creator of SI feels that full perm objects are free to take out of SL I think that's an issue that merits clarification on the intended points by LL.
  • [13:37] Joshua Nightshade: another checkbox that's just dropped into the UI doesn't clarify anything for me.
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: its republishing assets in a publicly available sim that is the issue, for me
  • [13:38] Joshua Nightshade: and further as it will apply to content I've created, that checkbox suddenly seems to purport that if I take my content out of SL I'm violating the ToS.
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: So - here's an example of point number 2:
  • [13:38] Joshua Nightshade: that's why I have a problem with it.
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: Will it be reasonable to assume that objects marked full perm *can* be taken out of SL's regions and rez'd in other region domains?
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: "Full perms" was concieved in a world with only LL servers
  • [13:39] Dahlia Trimble: I've heard some arguments against it
  • [13:39] Rex Cronon: joshua, nobody can stop u from taking the things u made to whatever grid u like
  • [13:39] Joshua Nightshade: I think most content creators realize when they make something full perm it's going to end up in a business in a box within the hour.
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I've run into several content creators who insist not
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: I think if you polled the intent of creators that used "Full Perms" you'd get a variety of responses
  • [13:39] Joshua Nightshade: I think so as well.
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: Ultimately, with the guidance of the community as a whole, we're going to have to make a call on that - it *is* going to not match some people's ideas
  • [13:40] Teravus Ousley: yes, you would.. I've always considered that when I set my builds full perms.. I don't really care what people do with it.
  • [13:40] Joshua Nightshade: I don't have a problem with it either personally.
  • [13:40] Joshua Nightshade: but I wouldn't object to a checkbox stipulating that something can be full perm but can't come out of SL.
  • [13:40] Dahlia Trimble: texture creators feel compelled to use full perms
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: So - I'm under no illusion that this is going to be easy - even such cases will cause concern
  • [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: some content crators consider "full perms" to be loss leaders for advertising purposes.
  • [13:41] Teravus Ousley: Yes, that is the sticky one Dahlia
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: Exactly - which brings me to another point
  • [13:41] Joshua Nightshade: well even my freebies are sold only copy, because otherwise the content will be stolen.
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: A problem with thinking about the permission bits as an embodyiment of the "law of agreement" or "license" is that they are tied up with
  • [13:42] Joshua Nightshade: yes I mentioned that in sai's jira issue, that as far as copyright law is concerned "full perm" is meaningless.
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: how the mechanics of the software work - they are there to help the software abide by the intent - but they can't always get it right
  • [13:42] Joshua Nightshade: and everyone has a different idea of what it means.
  • [13:42] JayR Cela: transfering things from one grid to anothe / will have to be not only seamless / but we should not have to worry about mindless DCMA issues as well
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: and as such, sometimes things have permissions set on them due to how the system interacts with them, not by what the creator intended
  • [13:42] Joshua Nightshade: the lack of clarification on that is why people justify freebie reselling.
  • [13:43] JayR Cela: who is running this fricking show / anyways the RIAA ?
  • [13:43] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: For example - I'm pretty sure that most clothese are set copy-no-transfer because of the way people like to organize outfits and the system requirement that to be in more than outfit you need copy
  • [13:43] Teravus Ousley: Prok
  • [13:43] Jamest Barnett: Good point- SL permissions are closer to file permissions than any license
  • [13:43] JayR Cela: look at what a mess they maid of the music industry
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: yet - I"m pretty sure that people would prefer to sell clothes no-copy-transfer, if users could put them in several outfits
  • [13:44] Teravus Ousley: shrugs and thinks this is a great and important discussion though.
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: Right -and I hold that any protocol and standardize data is going to be closer to the system mechacnics than the inteded license...
  • [13:44] Jamest Barnett: Probably
  • [13:45] Zha Ewry: The balance act, is to make the basics to happen in markup
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: we should endevour to make such close to the classes of intended license we expect -
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: but recongize the limits of what we can do
  • [13:45] Rex Cronon: the problem is that people are not only making multiple copies of things, but they also sell those copies
  • [13:46] JayR Cela: Rex does have a valid point
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: Imagine a software distribution system who's business logic understood that software has of three kinds of license: GNUish / BSDish / Proprietary
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: the second stage was meant to be a simple either/or simply for the copying programs to deal with since I would expect LL to have a permissions system in place before the meta-grid went live
  • [13:46] Teravus Ousley: I don't know.. if i set something full perms, I really didn't care if they sold it after they got it for free or not.
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: the system could handle the software according to those general classes of license -- but really, in the end, each may have their own varient
  • [13:47] Zero Linden: there is a balance between making the system be comprehendable and workable in a practical way for most users, and having as much detailed expression as creators can think of
  • [13:47] Tree Kyomoon: is anti copyright...he thinks DRM and copyright will die anyway though because evolution doesnt support that mentality
  • [13:47] JB Kraft: should the clarification then not be in the hands of the creator rather then the grid? i can choose the licence for my code with a single line of text for instance but the internet does not police that for me.
  • [13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: not to mention automatable for the asset server
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: only the most simple cases will be handled by the austomatic distributions system inherent in teh Agent Domain permissions
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: well - yes and no, JB - to recast the ballance (the tension) --- if the system is open ended- "here's the one-line ref to the license you are agreeing to"
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: then real people won't read them, and there will be little adherence to the specifics
  • [13:49] JayR Cela: look / folks / WAKE UP !! / you never going to be able to keep people from copyimg things / OR CRACKING Software
  • [13:49] JayR Cela: is not going to happen
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: JayR, this is meant for pople who enjoy playing by the rules
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: you gotta be clar what the rules actually are
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: But - if the system embodies too restrictive a set of options, we shut the system out from classes of content creators
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: SO
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: the key is to find the balance between these, and create a system which mostly helps people do the right thing - and allows a wide-enough variation in approach
  • [13:51] JayR Cela: SAI / I allways play by the rules / but there is a segment of the population that does not / GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD !!!
  • [13:51] JB Kraft: i tend to agree jayr, therefore the ability to clarify (meta) leaves one with some legal recourse, which is where this lies really, imho and marking an object 666 or 777 is reasonable
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: I know JayR, but at least we can post the rules so they can't claim ignorance
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: To the edge-case views I say that the protocol needs to enable all kinds of domains
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: I'm neither going to "side" with the "all digital rights are a sham" group or the "the system must enforce my license desires 100%"
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: side
  • [13:52] Jamest Barnett: I think that's the balance Zero's talking about JayR- guide most people to do the right thing without getting in the way
  • [13:53] JayR Cela: there will allways be someone out there that will crack the code
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: When goods, digital or otherwise, change hands, there are legal and social licenses that govern the transfer
  • [13:53] Joshua Nightshade: I don't really know if this is quite the place for that discussion.
  • [13:54] JB Kraft: jayr, that does not mean you should leave the locks off however
  • [13:54] Jamest Barnett: Yep, and there will always be people who break the law (and sometimes that's the right thing to do) but we still have them
  • [13:54] Tree Kyomoon: You cant fight nature
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: digitally, our goal is to help oil that transaction so it goes smoothly for both parties
  • [13:54] Jamest Barnett: Think of all the lawyers out of work otherwise :)
  • [13:54] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:54] JayR Cela: it is a fact of our digital life and living here within a Virtual World
  • [13:55] Tree Kyomoon: as long as theres an option to make your stuff freely distributable and copyable, then Im all for it
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: suspects that quote is going to escpae this limited venue.... :-)
  • [13:55] Rex Cronon: talking about locks, why aren't things encrypted? even if it possible to crack it, still it will act as a detterent
  • [13:55] Dahlia Trimble: doesnt see many free information advocates posting their credit card details for the general public to see
  • [13:55] JayR Cela: some folks are crooks
  • [13:55] JayR Cela: how do you track them down ?????
  • [13:55] JayR Cela: answer that
  • [13:55] Tree Kyomoon: the lars ulrichs of the world can lock their stuff down while the radio heads give it away and we'll see which one ends up winning in the end
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: again - not really our (AWG) provence to guess
  • [13:56] Joshua Nightshade: JayR seriously I think that's dilluting/confusing this talk.
  • [13:56] JayR Cela: or punnish them ????
  • [13:56] JayR Cela: ok i shut up
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: okay -
  • [13:56] Rex Cronon: it depends on many things tree
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: THAT was a good prelude
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: I'll be gone all next week
  • [13:57] Teravus Ousley: hehe
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: the the week after, hopefully back with Xan for a first round of technical discussion of possible designs
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: thanks all for coming
  • [13:57] Dahlia Trimble: the mice will have free reign in Zero's absence ;)
  • [13:57] JB Kraft: enjoy your g&t's zero ;)
  • [13:57] Rex Cronon: have fun zero.
  • [13:57] Jamest Barnett: Have a good break
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks Zero
  • [13:57] Teravus Ousley: yes, have fun
  • [13:57] Joshua Nightshade: so did we come to a decision on sai's jira proposal? heh.
  • [13:57] JayR Cela: byee Zero :_)
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: Tree - thanks for posting the transcript
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: (s)
  • [13:58] Dahlia Trimble: have a great vacation Zero :)
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: later all
  • [13:58] Tree Kyomoon: can someone pass me the log if you were here for the entire time?
  • [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: taken internall for consideration, I would think?
  • [13:58] Whump Linden: Tree, I'll paste to a notecard and drop it on you.
  • [13:58] Tree Kyomoon: thanks!