User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 June 26

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  • [8:27] Dr Scofield: hi adam, hi hamilton, hi baba
  • [8:27] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Tree
  • [8:27] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Dr
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: Hi everyone!
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: high everyone?
  • [8:27] Baba Yamamoto: haah no trek references!
  • [8:28] Adam Zaius: Hey, dont suppose Zha's going to be showing up?
  • [8:28] Adam Zaius: Given I heard the topic this week was the interop stuff.
  • [8:28] Dr Scofield: i'd expect her to
  • [8:28] Tree Kyomoon: Zha is always here!
  • [8:28] Adam Zaius: Hehe, must be running late.
  • [8:29] Hamilton Linden: Yeah, I talk to her/him every week
  • [8:30] Hamilton Linden: Do you guys usually start on time or wait a few minutes?
  • [8:30] Adam Zaius: Usually roughly on time from my experience.
  • [8:30] Tree Kyomoon: havent we already started?
  • [8:30] Adam Zaius: Sometimes early.
  • [8:31] Dr Scofield: we start on time and zero hands out free islands to everyone who's on time :-)
  • [8:31] Hamilton Linden: ok, one sec...
  • [8:31] Adam Zaius: Haha
  • [8:31] Hamilton Linden: let's Adam... a few hundred...
  • [8:31] Adam Zaius: At least. :)
  • [8:31] Adam Zaius: Hehe.
  • [8:31] Dr Scofield:  ;-)
  • [8:31] Tree Kyomoon: freedom costs a buck o five
  • [8:31] Adam Zaius: Plus my few thousand opensims if they count. ;)
  • [8:31] Baba Yamamoto: is that how adam got so many?
  • [8:31] Hamilton Linden: shhhh
  • [8:32] Hamilton Linden: well I'm the guest speaker today
  • [8:32] Hamilton Linden: since Zero's on vaca
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: adam has compromising photos of mitch kapor
  • [8:32] Baba Yamamoto: what are you guest speaking about?
  • [8:32] Charlesk Bing: Morning
  • [8:32] Hamilton Linden: Open Grid Protocol
  • [8:32] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Charlesk
  • [8:32] Baba Yamamoto: lame
  • [8:33] Hamilton Linden: I wanted to start by giving some context at Linden Lab since I'm not as familiar a
  • face
  • [8:33] Baba Yamamoto:  ;)
  • [8:33] Hamilton Linden: I'm leading our efforts to implement the Open Grid Protocol at Linden Lab
  • [8:33] Hamilton Linden: Tess and Periapse are key members of this implementation team.
  • [8:33] Hamilton Linden: Zero is leading our Architecture Working Group standardization efforts and the
  • architecture for it.
  • [8:33] Baba Yamamoto: oh.. fearless leader
  • [8:33] Tree Kyomoon: Hamilton that is distinct from Open sim right?
  • [8:34] Tree Kyomoon: (FTR)
  • [8:34] Adam Zaius: Right, but it's related sort of.
  • [8:34] Hamilton Linden: Yes
  • [8:34] Hamilton Linden: This quarter we began taking the very first steps of Open Grid Protocol
  • interoperability development and testing.
  • [8:34] Adam Zaius: Our protocol is Open Grid Services (OGS) vs Open Grid Protocol (OGP)
  • [8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: morning all
  • [8:34] Adam Zaius: I can sense that's going to be confusing in future. heh.
  • [8:34] Hamilton Linden: We're currently working on implementing and testing Login and Teleport.
  • [8:34] Dr Scofield: hi saijanai
  • [8:34] Tree Kyomoon: hey saij
  • [8:34] Hamilton Linden: Yeah :-)
  • [8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: topic this mornign?
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: It's going well, we're still working hard and its not finished yet.
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: Open Grid Protocol
  • [8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
  • [8:35] Tree Kyomoon: I just started playing half life, and man I thought teleporting in SL was rough...
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: lol
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: We're working jointly with IBM to make sure it interoperates with OpenSim
  • [8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Guess ENus is still asleep
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: so am I
  • [8:35] Hamilton Linden: IBM is working with us to add Open Grid Protocol support to OpenSim and jointly
  • enhance the Second Life open source viewer with us.
  • [8:35] Adam Zaius: thanks our benevolent corporate overlord.
  • [8:36] Hamilton Linden: So that was the context
  • [8:36] Tree Kyomoon: Does IBM have an SL page or online public info thing about that relationship?
  • [8:36] Goldie Katsu: a good benevolent corporate overloard.
  • [8:36] Hamilton Linden: there has been mention of it in past press releases, I think they're talking about it
  • at the AWG Groupies meeting
  • [8:37] Goldie Katsu: sighs thinking of her lawyerbound corporate overlord.
  • [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Ah, well Zha works for IBM so doesn Neas Bede
  • [8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Id sure love to see a public facing portal on IBM's website for SL.
  • [8:37] Tao Takashi: Hello
  • [8:37] Dr Scofield: does too
  • [8:37] Tree Kyomoon: Would help a lot in corporate value justification
  • [8:37] Adam Zaius: I think that might be a bit too much to ask personally.
  • [8:37] Hamilton Linden: so now the meat
  • [8:37] Hamilton Linden: I'm gauging interest in OpenSim'ers desire to conduct interoperability testing using
  • SGOGP with Second Life
  • [8:38] Hamilton Linden: What are your thoughts?
  • [8:38] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: I'm up for it - what's required to do the tests, are the caps public and live?
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: SGOGP or SLOGP?
  • [8:38] Tao Takashi: OGP! :)
  • [8:38] Hamilton Linden: lets just keep it simple OGP
  • [8:38] Baba Yamamoto: what is the goal of opensim interop?
  • [8:38] Hamilton Linden: so Adam, if we opened up our beta grid so you could begin testing it then you'd do so?
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Adam the most uptodate stuff is in the Python OGP lib, as far as I know (pyogp)
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
  • [8:39] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Yes, I would personally. I suspect others would too.
  • [8:39] Hamilton Linden: Obviously we're still getting our stuff to work so we can enable that
  • [8:39] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton. I can speak as both an OpenSim core developer and director of OSGrid that we
  • would like to support and help that effort.
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: and if its not, it should be, since that is what the lib is for
  • [8:39] Adam Zaius: Being able to utilise the SL login server would be a big benefit to me personally - since
  • it means I dont need to spend so much time setting up duplicate userservers, etc.
  • [8:40] Tao Takashi: I personally would be interested in writing some agent domain which is capable of
  • connecting to an opensim
  • [8:40] Locklainn Linden: actually, the newest pyogp site is https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pyogp
  • [8:40] Goldie Katsu: Might start here: [2] and links at the
  • bottom (Virtual worlds come to life, and Greater IBM connection)
  • [8:40] Infinity Linden: Hey Baba... to answer your question.. the high-level goals are to prove the protocol
  • is sufficently documented to support interpoerability and to see if we all have our systems (including
  • firewalls, etc.) setup properly
  • [8:40] Charlesk Bing: OSGrid is ready to test an agent domain as soon as it is committed to the OpenSim SVN.
  • [8:40] Adam Zaius: Question: The interop stuff - Zha didnt elaborate too much on this, he used both Login and
  • Teleport in his post.
  • [8:40] Adam Zaius: Was the teleport he did a login-direct-to-opensim, or a offer-teleport/teleport.
  • [8:41] Adam Zaius: (or are both possible?)
  • [8:41] Tao Takashi: I think login
  • [8:41] Dr Scofield: patch from Zha is forth coming...needs a bit of, err, cleanup
  • [8:41] Dr Scofield: login
  • [8:41] Tree Kyomoon: as far as interop is concerned, we are just talking interop between opensim and SL, not SL and any
  • webservice based app?
  • [8:41] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton, I also have to say that I generally support Adam and SDague as two of our key
  • architects for OpenSim.
  • [8:41] Hamilton Linden: very cool guys
  • [8:42] Tao Takashi: so if you see opensim as a region domain I guess right now the question is how to handle
  • place_avatar if I see this right
  • [8:42] Hamilton Linden: What can we do to help with your testing efforts?
  • [8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: tp is one or two steps beyond login. The design is to make them almost identical except
  • login has no "source" simulator
  • [8:42] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Teleports would be incredibly handy if that's at all possible.
  • [8:42] Adam Zaius: Although I admit there are some security concerns which would prohibit it from the main
  • grid -- like the not-so-secret shared-secret keys.
  • [8:42] Baba Yamamoto: why would a teleport need a source? derez in one sim and rez in another
  • [8:42] Hamilton Linden: the good news is we're working on teleport at the moment (with Zha), its a bit tricky
  • but we're making progress
  • [8:42] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton: Are you familiar with OSGrid? [(http://osgrid.org)] It is one of our main
  • testing and development grids for OpenSim and might be a good candidate for interop testing.
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba. That's the diff between login and TP
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: no derez step
  • [8:43] Baba Yamamoto: i think the language is bad then sai
  • [8:44] Charlesk Bing: In general, this grid tests the SVN trunk from OpenSim every day, is non-profit, and
  • stays very close to the OpenSim developers desires, Hamilton.
  • [8:44] Baba Yamamoto: that's not a login.. it's just a rez step after login
  • [8:44] Hamilton Linden: Charlesk, can't remember if I've logged into that OSGrid. I was just on Openlife last
  • week
  • [8:44] Charlesk Bing: Seeing as how it is run by one of the OpenSim core developers.
  • [8:44] Tao Takashi: I wonder which protocol the LL agent domain implements at the moment, is it
  • http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman ?
  • [8:44] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: Charles diverged onto a topic for a moment which may be worth looking into ---
  • the Agent Domain implementation LL has, is it possible to cleanup and release that? (ie we could make the OGS
  • gridservers OGP compatible)
  • [8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba Login establishes credentials with the AD. ONce that happens, you can rez in any
  • sim. If you don't have a sim you're already rezzed in, you don't need to derez, so that is just your initial
  • rez
  • [8:45] Charlesk Bing: Thanks, Adam. My interest here is setting up tests and gathering data at this point to
  • help the developers on both sides.
  • [8:45] Hamilton Linden: Adam, in order to open up our beta grid for interop testing...
  • [8:46] BlueWall Slade: As a region operator on OSGrid, iI would be very interested in participating in interop
  • testing as well
  • [8:46] Baba Yamamoto: sai then teleports dont have sources..
  • [8:46] Hamilton Linden: we'd need to put our first cut of the agent domain there for you to test against
  • [8:46] Hamilton Linden: which is why I was asking if there was interest
  • [8:46] Charlesk Bing: As soon as the agent domain is in the SVN, we will test it.
  • [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: TP's have a derez step as well as a rez step. INitial login is a TP without derez
  • [8:46] Hamilton Linden: by first cut I mean login & tp
  • [8:46] Hamilton Linden: awesome Charlesk
  • [8:47] Baba Yamamoto: sai, then a teleport isnt really a base protocol item.. it's two items tied together by
  • a macro ;)
  • [8:47] Charlesk Bing: I'll back off a bit. If ADam says test before SVN, I will do that also.
  • [8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: initial sim-rez is a TP without derez, sorry. Login has nothing except password
  • screening
  • [8:47] Hamilton Linden: what do you mean by "in the SVN"?
  • [8:47] Charlesk Bing: Also, feel free to make any conditions that LL needs to feel comfortable.
  • [8:48] Charlesk Bing: I backed off that one. Normally, I try to test on OSGrid what is in OpenSim SVN. But, in
  • this particular case, if Adam were to say "test this .exe program". then I will say 'Ok".
  • [8:48] Adam Zaius: Heh, well anything we want to test will end up in SVN anyway.
  • [8:48] Adam Zaius: OSGrid's value is more in the volume of testing it can do.
  • [8:48] Charlesk Bing: Er, as long as it doenst bring down the rest of the OpenSim server processes, that is.
  • [8:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Don't know how complicated ZHa's code was. But it didn't soud ilke rocket science,
  • except perhaps figuring out the interface initially (as usual)
  • [8:49] Charlesk Bing: We could perhaps arrange the interop to only go to a particular isolated island on the
  • LL betagrid to limit the tests until all feel more comfortable.
  • [8:50] Adam Zaius: From what I've been told Zha's code is a little bit ... unsanitary and needs cleaning.
  • [8:50] Charlesk Bing: We can also put in place any restrictions LL feels comfortable with.
  • [8:50] Adam Zaius: Fine for a first implementation as a get-it-working, but I think the proper implementation
  • will likely just use that as a guide.
  • [8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha was suggesting that we need a special test asset server that has ONLY assets created
  • on the starting SL beta sim
  • [8:50] Hamilton Linden: Yes, the first step would be "get it working" step
  • [8:50] Tree Kyomoon: /reminds folks all this is on the record...
  • [8:50] Harleen Gretzky: [3]
  • [8:50] Hamilton Linden: We could even do joint debugging sessions
  • [8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: that way, we won't risk transferring assets from SL to OpenSim
  • [8:51] Charlesk Bing: I'll shut up now unless asked. But, in general, Adam, DrScofield, Neas and the rest of
  • the OpenSim core developers speak for me also.
  • [8:51] Tao Takashi: my refactored code is here:
  • http://pysecondlife.googlecode.com/svn/pyogp/pyogp.lib.base/trunk/pyogp/lib/base/
  • [8:51] Hamilton Linden: No inventory or asset transfer is supported at this time (including clothing, body
  • shapes, etc...)
  • [8:51] Tao Takashi: needs to be merged with LL's code, we will do a plan soon :)
  • [8:51] Baba Yamamoto: heh.. how would asset transfer happen without explicit support?
  • [8:51] Hamilton Linden: We will not add that without community co-design and in a way that protects existing
  • vendors
  • [8:51] Dr Scofield: channelling via sub-ether
  • [8:51] Infinity Linden: I think Saijanai was talking about code written by lindens
  • [8:52] Adam Zaius: What about transferring one-way for the moment? OpenSim->SL but not vice-versa.
  • [8:52] Baba Yamamoto: hamilton, you're too worried about existing vendors
  • [8:52] Baba Yamamoto: drop i nthe bucket
  • [8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: existing vendors are the bread and butter that keeps LL running via landsales
  • [8:52] Hamilton Linden: I'd have to to respectfully disagree Baba
  • [8:53] Hamilton Linden: but anyway, we haven't even designed that piece yet and will be doing so at these
  • office hours
  • [8:53] Charlesk Bing: I would like to say that OSGrid wishes to respect the desires of LL with respect to any
  • transferring of objects.
  • [8:53] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: btw, is place_avatar implemented like in
  • http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman ?
  • [8:54] Tree Kyomoon: thinks SL is still in R&D phase, real profitabiliy is a long ways away but when it hits it
  • will be huge, so for now concentrating on whats best for the platform is a wise move
  • [8:54] Tao Takashi: so could I do the same manually then?
  • [8:54] Hamilton Linden: lets keep in mind what we've been talking about today is only the first small step
  • towards interoperability
  • [8:54] Locklainn Linden: lemme look it over, 1 sec
  • [8:54] Tao Takashi: then this might be what OpenSim needs to implement I assume (and what Zha probably
  • implemented)
  • [8:54] Hamilton Linden: so while there's a lot of messages login and teleport are still a very small subset,
  • which leads me to my next question
  • [8:55] Hamilton Linden: What would you folks like Linden Lab to work on next in terms of interoperability
  • implementation of OGP
  • [8:55] Dr Scofield: chat? im?
  • [8:56] Tao Takashi: I personally would like inventory web services :)
  • [8:56] Adam Zaius: IM, Presence would be good ones.
  • [8:56] Locklainn Linden: Tao, yes, place_avatar is implemented as such
  • [8:56] Adam Zaius: Oh, I had a big question here - this has been discussed before, but I dont think it's been
  • finalised yet.
  • [8:56] Adam Zaius: What are we standardising on in terms of avatar identifiers?
  • [8:56] Locklainn Linden: as far as I know
  • [8:56] Adam Zaius: user@host?
  • [8:56] Tree Kyomoon: remove chat from the viewer and open it up, and allow us to access a mini viewer that we can embed
  • in facebook
  • [8:56] Tree Kyomoon: and youtube
  • [8:57] Hamilton Linden: Excellent question Adam, I'll have to defer to Zero on that till he gets back. But I'm
  • pretty sure we haven't finalized it
  • [8:57] Adam Zaius: Hang on
  • [8:57] Adam Zaius: I need to relog
  • [8:57] Adam Zaius: memory leak
  • [8:57] Adam Zaius: brb
  • [8:57] Tree Kyomoon: its one thing to interface with software no one uses, but it gets more exciting when SL users and
  • developers can access the 70,000,000 people using facebook
  • [8:57] Dr Scofield: chat, IM, presence would nicely complement login/teleport
  • [8:58] Infinity Linden: hmm.. facebook's security model concerns me though
  • [8:58] Tree Kyomoon: Im not saying a full client in facebook, but we should be able to put at least a viewer in an
  • embed on webpages
  • [8:58] Locklainn Linden: what do you mean by "presence"?
  • [8:58] Adam Zaius: Back
  • [8:59] Adam Zaius: Presence =Online Stauts
  • [8:59] Dr Scofield: avatar online status
  • [8:59] Adam Zaius: Status*
  • [8:59] Dr Scofield:  ;-)
  • [8:59] Hamilton Linden: Well if OGP supported IM you could theoretically integrate it with anything on the web
  • [8:59] Locklainn Linden: isn't that just logging in?
  • [8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: phogp should enable thin web-based clients
  • [8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: pyogp
  • [8:59] Hamilton Linden: + presence Locklainn
  • [8:59] Dr Scofield: you also have away, busy
  • [8:59] Tree Kyomoon: right so something like GAIM could access SL chat, which would be awesome
  • [8:59] Adam Zaius: Away, Busy, etc seem kind of restrictive.
  • [9:00] Adam Zaius: I'd have some standard identifiers, but leave it a text field personally.
  • [9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: steps right now are login => rez avatar
  • [9:00] Dr Scofield: i agree those should be extended
  • [9:00] Hamilton Linden: Sorry for being ignorant but what's GAIM?
  • [9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: between login and rez avatar could be "obain inventory" or "send IM"
  • [9:00] Tree Kyomoon: its now called Pidgeon
  • [9:00] Tree Kyomoon: sorry
  • [9:00] Baba Yamamoto: didnt they fork it again?
  • [9:00] Dr Scofield: multi-protocol IM/chat app
  • [9:00] Tree Kyomoon: open chat client
  • [9:00] BlueWall Slade: XMPP
  • [9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: so an IM client could use SL login annd send/receive SL IM messages
  • [9:01] Tao Takashi: the reason I would like inventory is so that I can build some web based inventory client
  •  :)
  • [9:01] Tree Kyomoon: Im already working on one of those
  • [9:01] Hamilton Linden: wouldn't the first step to an open chat client be adding support for IM in our OGP
  • implementation
  • [9:01] Tree Kyomoon: everything is entirely extracted from SL
  • [9:01] Saijanai Kuhn: That's been the plan since the start of SLOGP, Tree
  • [9:01] Tree Kyomoon: but web communication from SL to servers is limited and crappy
  • [9:01] Ehdward Spengler: arent those "text only" sl clients basically glorified chat application?
  • [9:01] Infinity Linden: XMPP has scalability issues though
  • [9:01] Rex Cronon: hello, am i late or what:)
  • [9:02] Dr Scofield: infinity, hmm, seems like google disagrees
  • [9:02] Tree Kyomoon: we need real XML and session connectivity between SL and the httpwebs
  • [9:02] Hamilton Linden: By the way, Infinity is part of our team to design and implement OGP in case it hasn't
  • been stated explicitly before
  • [9:02] Tao Takashi: btw, the question of how to identify an agent is very much related to what dataportability
  • and other groups are thinking about so maybe there is something we can also discuss together
  • [9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: currenty, group IM also handles inventory trading between avatars
  • [9:02] Infinity Linden: google plays a few tricks with its implementation and is rather charded in terms of
  • its use
  • [9:03] Dr Scofield: what do they do?
  • [9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: so get group IM working means inventory passing is also working (or 95% of the way
  • there)
  • [9:03] Infinity Linden: still... maybe using XMPP for the client and having some form of gateway...
  • [9:03] Infinity Linden: hmm..
  • [9:03] Tao Takashi: but wouldn't this maybe something where we could engage with the XMPP community and try to
  • solve these problems instead of inventing something new?
  • [9:03] Infinity Linden: using an "open" chat protocol is probably better than re-inventing the wheel
  • [9:03] Dr Scofield: that's what we are planning for OpenSim (XmppBridgeModule)
  • [9:03] Infinity Linden: great minds think alike
  • [9:04] Adam Zaius: If you do XMPP for IM / Chat -- implement it in the client, and just use a login-share for
  • the server backend.
  • [9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: I think the first step should be to get gorup IM working in the pyogp. Then everyone can
  • hash out how to improvement
  • [9:04] Tao Takashi: XMPP is also one of the things which these days get mentioned over and over again, e.g.
  • related to dataportability again and life streams/twitter like applications
  • [9:04] Adam Zaius: That way it's explicit that you dont have to implement a XMPP server to implement the
  • protocol.
  • [9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero insists that XMPP has issues
  • [9:04] BlueWall Slade: SL group messages to twitter might be good :0
  • [9:04] Tao Takashi: as said, maybe they can be removed by working with the XMPP people
  • [9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha said that after independent checking, she decided that Zero is correct: it doesn't
  • handle the SL requirements properly
  • [9:04] Dr Scofield: has zero had a talk with google folks?
  • [9:04] Tao Takashi: they might be interested in identifying issues and solvign them
  • [9:05] Hypatia Callisto: twitter is "stressing out" a fair bit too much :P
  • [9:05] Infinity Linden: yeah.. Zero and I have gone through some of them
  • [9:05] Tao Takashi: Hypatia: sure, but even with IMs disabled ;-)
  • [9:05] Infinity Linden: there is a possibility that XMPP could be made to work, but not without a few changes
  • [9:05] Hypatia Callisto: its nearly unusable today Tao
  • [9:05] Tree Kyomoon: SL, to be truly open, needs to open up to regular web communication protocols so us flash / html
  • developers can have access to our islands and servers
  • [9:05] Tao Takashi: I still need to read the xmpp spec(s)
  • [9:05] Tao Takashi: if it only wouldn't be too much :)
  • [9:05] Tree Kyomoon: that would totally change the web
  • [9:06] Tao Takashi: and I would like to learn more about the issues
  • [9:06] Tao Takashi: maybe these are issues for other applications as well
  • [9:06] Rex Cronon: u wouldn't be the only one that has access to them tao, hackers would too
  • [9:06] Baba Yamamoto: hackers..
  • [9:06] Baba Yamamoto: Muahahaha
  • [9:06] Tao Takashi: well, I am not sure we talk about security issues here
  • [9:06] Infinity Linden: remember.. in SL, we have the idea of location as well as presence. so you can have
  • agent a and agent who can hear each other along with agent b and agent c who can hear each other, but agent a
  • and agent c can't hear each other
  • [9:06] Tree Kyomoon: fear of hackers should not affect wilingness to evolve
  • [9:06] Ehdward Spengler: hackers have access to the code for firefox 3, how many hack attacks do you know of
  • centered around firefox?
  • [9:06] Rex Cronon: i don't think that ll would like that
  • [9:07] BlueWall Slade: thinks inter-grid inventory transfers of *owner created* content would help testing as
  • well
  • [9:07] Charlesk Bing: I would suggest starting slow and just working out the logic to move as nekkid ruths
  • from one grid to another and then we can have all the rest of these interesting discussions.
  • [9:07] Tao Takashi: Infinity: sure, but isn't this a different chat than IM?
  • [9:07] Dr Scofield: we really only need IM for inter -grid
  • [9:07] Baba Yamamoto: moving nekkid ruths between grids is about 3-4 days of work ?
  • [9:08] Baba Yamamoto: if the specs are all there
  • [9:08] Dr Scofield: for that XMPP is fine
  • [9:08] Rex Cronon: a day might come when people might catch a virus from visiting a sim:)
  • [9:08] Hamilton Linden: I believe the next of Zero's office hours will focus on inventory & permissions and is
  • being led by Xan Linden
  • [9:08] Tao Takashi: I was more thinking about pure IM implemented via XMPP
  • [9:08] Ehdward Spengler: baba, i believe it has already been done
  • [9:08] Hamilton Linden: That's Tuesday 1 pm PST :-)
  • [9:08] Tree Kyomoon: I agree Charlesk that is of clear academic value, I guess I am talking more practical value,
  • increasing the visibility and usefulness of SL today, not 10 or 20 years from now
  • [9:08] Tao Takashi: Hamilton: cool
  • [9:08] Dr Scofield: tao, ys
  • [9:08] Baba Yamamoto: ehdward, i am aware.. but not open ;)
  • [9:08] Dr Scofield: i wasn't thinking straight when i mentioned chat, adam had it spot on
  • [9:09] Dr Scofield: IM & presence
  • [9:09] Adam Zaius:  :)
  • [9:09] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: good to hear btw, I might then try these out someday :)
  • [9:09] Hamilton Linden: So to summarize Presence, IM and Inventory (possibly in that order)
  • [9:09] Hamilton Linden: is what you'd guys would like (with some differences obviously)
  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: but it would also be good to have a clue why it stalls :)
  • [9:10] Tree Kyomoon: and Viewer at least 1 way or 1 way with some interactivity
  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: maybe implementing it myself might help to find it out
  • [9:10] Locklainn Linden: Tao, that reverse HTTP stuff
  • [9:10] Dr Scofield: yes
  • [9:10] Hamilton Linden: as usuall we'll be discussing the design of each before we implement it
  • [9:10] Locklainn Linden: gotta talk to tess and leyla
  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: but shouldn't at least something be coming over the wire?
  • [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: hamilton, you may need to take Zero's office hours to a arena for the inventory
  • discussion next week
  • [9:10] Locklainn Linden: not sure
  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: or maybe it does but the lib does not know it's finished
  • [9:10] Hypatia Callisto: laughs
  • [9:10] Hamilton Linden: Yes, Tess will be in those meetings
  • [9:10] Tao Takashi: maybe I will utilize some hacker tools to find out ;-)
  • [9:10] Dr Scofield: saijanai: lol
  • [9:10] Locklainn Linden: haha
  • [9:11] Locklainn Linden: be s ure tolet me know please! haha
  • [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: not joking actually
  • [9:11] Locklainn Linden: be sure to let me know please*
  • [9:11] Rex Cronon: i guess u r allowed to hack yourself:)
  • [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: zero had to before when gp attempts toped 80
  • [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: TP attempts
  • [9:11] Hamilton Linden: good point Sai
  • [9:11] Tao Takashi: I will let you know :)
  • [9:12] Adam Zaius: Actually.
  • [9:12] Locklainn Linden: awesome
  • [9:12] Adam Zaius: Thinking about it for a moment.
  • [9:12] Adam Zaius: and it's related to IM since it's just a special form of IM, but
  • [9:12] Tao Takashi: do you actually have another reverese http guru now? :)
  • [9:12] Adam Zaius: the Offer Teleport would be really helpful after we get TP's down.
  • [9:12] Adam Zaius: Being able to 'offer teleport' cross-grid would be mindblowingly awesome./
  • [9:12] Hamilton Linden: Definitely Adam
  • [9:12] BlueWall Slade: Adam++
  • [9:12] Dr Scofield: +1
  • [9:12] Hamilton Linden: +10 Adam
  • [9:12] Baba Yamamoto: isnt everything a special form of IM?
  • [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: unlocking group IM would open 75%+ of the functionality of SL to the intergrid
  • [9:13] Tree Kyomoon: making it a real XML based webservice would be amazing
  • [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: everything except voice and local chat, I think
  • [9:13] Locklainn Linden: Tao, I'm not sure what you mean by 'have a guru', like a LL guru?
  • [9:13] Hamilton Linden: Speaking of which Adam, how important is friend's list (because if you have presence
  • and offer teleport)
  • [9:13] Adam Zaius: Group IM is a nasty edge case, I'd rather leave that one for later since the amount of work
  • required would lead to more results spent elsewhere.
  • [9:13] Adam Zaius: Friends list would be helpful, but isnt required - if the other person can IM you first.
  • [9:13] Hamilton Linden: so IM before friends list?
  • [9:14] Tree Kyomoon: would be excellent to be able to offer teleport to someone in facebook!
  • [9:14] Hamilton Linden: would be your preference
  • [9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Adam, I want it taken into pyogp asap, so we can hammer on it in Python
  • [9:14] Adam Zaius: Hamilton: I'd probably say IM first myself, but friends might be dead simple.
  • [9:14] Rex Cronon: isn't facebook 2d?
  • [9:14] Hamilton Linden: Agreed Adam
  • [9:14] Tree Kyomoon: facebook is participated in by humans mostly, as is SL
  • [9:14] Ehdward Spengler: using the anology of the 2d web - right now, a web page tells the browser where to
  • get images, etc from and the browser sends a request to get it and display it. couldnt inventories be similar.
  • then an inventory database could be anywhere
  • [9:14] Baba Yamamoto: rex, don't worry about details like that
  • [9:14] Infinity Linden: well... AjaxLife is a bit 2d as well
  • [9:14] Locklainn Linden: Sai, before we do that we have to talk to Enus and the rest to start the spec and all
  • taht
  • [9:14] Locklainn Linden: otherwise, we're going to get 3 different code bases
  • [9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: friends list is sent with EventQUeueGet, so that should be quite easy to put into the AD
  • (I would think)
  • [9:15] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: somebody who knows much about reverse http :)
  • [9:15] Tao Takashi: and how to implement it in various languages maybe (esp. python would be handy right now)
  • [9:15] Locklainn Linden: Tao, yea, the ones who coded it haha
  • [9:16] Locklainn Linden: coded it on the AD servers*
  • [9:16] Adam Zaius: Ack, EventQueueGet.
  • [9:16] Adam Zaius: IT BURNS US.
  • [9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao, there's not that much to know. The sample code Donovan posted is about all there is
  • to it unless you want to implement it in a library
  • [9:16] Tao Takashi: Sai: the only problem would be to understand it ;-)
  • [9:16] Baba Yamamoto: libsecondlife will have rhttp soon ;)
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: and as I remember the sample code also did not really work for me
  • [9:17] Dr Scofield: nice
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: cool, Baba
  • [9:17] Locklainn Linden: Said, and Don's code uses Eventlets
  • [9:17] Locklainn Linden: Sai*
  • [9:17] LaPiscean Liberty: hytml
  • [9:17] Charlesk Bing: We may also wish to test this logic to transport between DeepGrid and OSGrid and back to
  • test OpenSim<->OpenSim as well as SL<->OpenSim.
  • [9:17] Dr Scofield: will take a look at it for the new OSHttpServer code then
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: I also would like to see how to use it with plain http libs
  • [9:17] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but the principle is found in any complete 1.1 implementation.
  • [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: SL is really 2d in a practical sense. Can you reach your hand into your 2d monitor?
  • [9:17] Tao Takashi: and maybe some counterpart which implements it right to test it against
  • [9:17] Adam Zaius: Charles: exactly why I'm interested in implementing the Agent Domain on the OGS standard
  • servers.
  • [9:18] Tao Takashi: some counterpart which isn't a whole sim maybe ;-)
  • [9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: could swear I tested it with the BASE library in Python
  • [9:18] Baba Yamamoto: tao, it should be fine as long as you have http client and server libs and they support
  • upgrades
  • [9:18] Tao Takashi: post code, Sai :)
  • [9:18] Tao Takashi: well, I haven#t look too deep into it anyway, I might do so someday
  • [9:19] Locklainn Linden: def, and if you could, put it on the pyogp wiki
  • [9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: of course, maybe I dramed that but I thought I did... :-(
  • [9:19] Charlesk Bing: What are the actions items for OpenSim over the next week or two?
  • [9:19] Tao Takashi: one question might be: how do we communicate? via sldev?
  • [9:19] Tree Kyomoon: wonders how many people other than developers currently use opensim
  • [9:20] Dr Scofield: try and get zha's patch into at least an OpenSim branch
  • [9:20] Charlesk Bing: Thousands
  • [9:20] Baba Yamamoto: charlesk, rewriting login
  • [9:20] Charlesk Bing: k
  • [9:20] hackerpc1 Lewsey: hi
  • [9:21] BlueWall Slade: could we get a configuration setting the the client to enter osgrid as a login
  • destination?
  • [9:21] BlueWall Slade: *in the client*
  • [9:21] Tree Kyomoon: /are the open sim useage stats available somewhere online?
  • [9:22] Baba Yamamoto: bluewall thre is a gridselector in debug options?
  • [9:22] Charlesk Bing: Look at the "grids" page on the opensimulator.org wiki.
  • [9:22] Hamilton Linden: So let's start wrapping up this meeting
  • [9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: doh. THOT I tested it... :-(
  • [9:23] Locklainn Linden: haha
  • [9:23] Latif Khalifa: Baba, i think on SL-dev there was mention of allowing arbitrary login url on the login
  • screen of the viewer
  • [9:23] Hamilton Linden: To summarize the meeting, Linden Lab asked if the OpenSim folks they'd be interested
  • in interop testing with our agent domain once we got it working for login and teleport
  • [9:23] BlueWall Slade: baba: Ctrl+Shift+G gets a list in the lower RH corner in teh RC clients
  • [9:24] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton: One last point. We hold an "Office Hour" at 1900UTC each Tuesday on "Wright
  • Plaza" on OSGrid to discuss the weeks software activities for OpenSim and all are welcome.
  • [9:24] Tree Kyomoon: I guess I just see this fretting and fussing over opensim interop, but the elephant in the room
  • aka facebook, youtube, google, open IM etc, are being brushed aside
  • [9:24] Baba Yamamoto: blue, not sure how the grids are set.. i think there is an xml file with a grid list
  • [9:24] Hamilton Linden: Charles I'd like to come to that
  • [9:24] Hamilton Linden: BTW what is UTC in terms of PST?
  • [9:24] Dr Scofield: tree, one step at a time, i guess
  • [9:24] BlueWall Slade: basba: ok - wil look there - thanks
  • [9:25] Hamilton Linden: We also got good feedback in terms of what you'd like our roadmap to be
  • [9:25] Dr Scofield: hamilton: -9 i think
  • [9:25] Hamilton Linden: Everything discussed here is going straight into our development planning
  • [9:25] Harleen Gretzky: 7 hours behind during PDT
  • [9:25] Tao Takashi: Tree: well, you should maybe join effoerts like dataportability.org and the DiSO project,
  • they are thinking about more interoperability
  • [9:25] Hamilton Linden: so we really appreciate it!
  • [9:25] Adam Zaius: IIRC the OSGrid hours are just after Zero's?
  • [9:25] Adam Zaius: (on Tues that is)
  • [9:25] Tao Takashi: I am already trying to bridge these efforts a little bit by taking proposed standards to
  • use back and forth
  • [9:26] LaPiscean Liberty: [4]
  • [9:26] Charlesk Bing: 1900UTC == noon PDT or 3PM EDT
  • [9:26] Tao Takashi: so it's before Zero's I think
  • [9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW< WHich LInden office hours at 11 AM> I'm counting those as AWG-related on the wiki
  • these days (lucky him)
  • [9:27] Dr Scofield: has always been rubbish with timezones
  • [9:27] Infinity Linden: oh... and I see there's a test hour as well
  • [9:27] BlueWall Slade: livin' on SLT :)
  • [9:27] Infinity Linden: for osgrit
  • [9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: just looks at the SL clock in the viewer window
  • [9:27] Adam Zaius: Test hour is our triage for bugs. :)
  • [9:27] Hamilton Linden: I want to thank you guys for this great discussion
  • [9:27] Tree Kyomoon: thanks Tao I'll look into that! I just want to keep these things on the table
  • [9:27] Tao Takashi: I want to think Linden Lab for pushing this forward :)
  • [9:27] Tree Kyomoon: thats why im here :)
  • [9:27] BlueWall Slade: thank you Hamilton!
  • [9:27] Charlesk Bing: We have a taunt the last five minutes of "Test Hour" to any wizard to bring the sim
  • down. We dont always succeed in bringing it down, which is good.
  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: I am also very much interested in getting my data from A to B and use my account whereever
  • I like etc.
  • [9:28] Flight Band: All Go
  • [9:28] Charlesk Bing: Thank you kindly, Hamilton.
  • [9:28] BlueWall Slade: Tao++
  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: and esp. share my friends etc.
  • [9:28] Adam Zaius: Yeah, thanks for this discussion.
  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: and not redefine them on every social network
  • [9:28] Dr Scofield: thx!
  • [9:28] Tao Takashi: and in this regard I see OGP more or less like a social network
  • [9:28] Hamilton Linden: It's been great getting sync'd up on how we can work together with you
  • [9:29] Hamilton Linden: Great analogy Tao
  • [9:29] Tree Kyomoon: SL is vastly more than a social network :)
  • [9:29] Tao Takashi: I also created [5] (and need to work on this more)
  • as a collection of libraries supporting such things
  • [9:29] Charlesk Bing: Hamilton, likewise. We have the highest of respect and appreciation for secondlife.
  • [9:29] Baba Yamamoto: tree, not really
  • [9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: for future reference to meeting schedule:
  • http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings
  • [9:29] Baba Yamamoto: a social network is vastly more than facebook ;)
  • [9:30] Hypatia Callisto: is not a huge fan of social networks such as facebook, but to each his own :P
  • [9:30] BlueWall Slade: SL == Socializing Network
  • [9:30] Tao Takashi: well, my vision for the future is more likely to have specialized services which build
  • upon your social graph
  • [9:30] Tao Takashi: which they can subscribe to
  • [9:30] Tao Takashi: so I can pick and choose what I want
  • [9:30] Orion Shamroy: No, SL = Socializing Universe :0)
  • [9:30] Hamilton Linden: Thanks folks!
  • [9:30] BlueWall Slade: Orion++
  • [9:30] Charlesk Bing: Bye, Hamilton.
  • [9:30] Dr Scofield: bye!
  • [9:30] Hypatia Callisto: thanks :))
  • [9:31] Tao Takashi: and the social graph does not need to live on every social network but should be more "on
  • top" of it all
  • [9:31] BlueWall Slade: G'Day!
  • [9:31] Robinella Muliaina: bye hamilton
  • [9:31] Tao Takashi: cya Hamilton
  • [9:31] Locklainn Linden: Bye everyone!
  • [9:31] Hamilton Linden: One last thing, contact Periapse Linden if you're interested in interop testing
  • [9:31] Adam Zaius: Seeya
  • [9:31] Tree Kyomoon: SL is a platform that is mostly used for a social network. 70,000,000 people are fans of facebook.
  • Im not particularly, but it seems dumb to keep ourselves in an exclusive ivory tower and maintain a wall
  • between us and "the common people"
  • [9:31] Dex Mason: thanks
  • [9:31] Hamilton Linden: or myself if you can't reach him
  • [9:31] Rex Cronon: bye hamilton
  • [9:31] Dr Scofield: train to catch, cu all around! bye!
  • [9:31] Rex Cronon: bye dr
  • [9:31] Hypatia Callisto: I sort of view facebook as I would people who enjoy movies and going to the theater
  •  :)
  • [9:31] Robinella Muliaina: I have to go too but thanks for the enlighting discussion on the OpenSim
  • [9:31] Tao Takashi: Tree: that's right and it makes sense to have the same friends here as on FB if you allow
  • for such connections
  • [9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: who got the full transcript?
  • [9:32] Hamilton Linden: I'll be publishing the transcript
  • [9:32] Hypatia Callisto: some like one and some like the other, and some like botha nd some like neither :)
  • not really related
  • [9:32] Eddy Stryker: is data portability done yet
  • [9:32] Tree Kyomoon: but we can also make interoperability between the platforms. I am mystified as to why people here
  • dont seem to get that
  • [9:32] Hamilton Linden: in Zero's office hours where all the other ones are
  • [9:32] Tao Takashi: Eddy: no, it's more in the beginning ;-)
  • [9:32] Baba Yamamoto: eddy, they're taking their sweet time with it
  • [9:32] Tao Takashi: Eddy: The problem is more politics of course
  • [9:33] Eddy Stryker: baba: who is "they"?
  • [9:33] LaPiscean Liberty: Agreed Tree
  • [9:33] Eddy Stryker: and does it conform to [6] ?
  • [9:33] Baba Yamamoto: they.. these people here ;P
  • [9:33] Tao Takashi: the important think IMHO is to try to make this platform we create here to be as open as
  • possible
  • [9:33] Hypatia Callisto: like my partner thinks SL is for the birds, and I think social networks are... we're
  • totally different. Some grok 2d more than 3d and vice versa
  • [9:33] Baba Yamamoto: eddy, asset migration will require "co development with existing vendors"
  • [9:34] Tao Takashi: and maybe implement (controlled) ways of syncing/exporting/importing data directly into it
  • [9:34] Baba Yamamoto: or something
  • [9:34] Tree Kyomoon: exactly, so XML based webservices instead of proprietary hidden data communication
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hence the OGP from LInden Lab and the OSG from OpenSIm
  • [9:34] Eddy Stryker: baba: not really, i did it the other day just fine
  • [9:34] Tao Takashi: and standardized protocols
  • [9:34] Tao Takashi: but also keep control in place
  • [9:34] Eddy Stryker: is confused
  • [9:34] Tao Takashi: so I can say what I want to expose to which service and which person
  • [9:34] Dirk Talamasca: Please don't grok, Hypatia
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Eddy, was a reference to the political issue of how to create a intergrid permissions
  • system
  • [9:34] Hypatia Callisto:  :P
  • [9:35] Tree Kyomoon: I want to have a camera on my sim, aim it at an interactive 3d thing I make, and port that camera
  • view to an embedded object in an HTML page or a flash application
  • [9:35] Eddy Stryker: ahh
  • [9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: That's the topic at next week's office hours
  • [9:35] Tao Takashi: ok, I need to head off, some work is waiting
  • [9:35] Tao Takashi: great discussion! :)