User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Nov 11

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  • [12:59] Infinity Linden: hmm...
  • [13:00] Morgaine Dinova: I guess that's one of the nice things about working for IBM or the old Bell Labs (dunno where in AT&T land that is now)
  • [13:00] Morgaine Dinova: Lots of interesting people
  • [2008/11/11 13:00] Fleep Tuque is Online
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: okay... so.. besides Adam declaring that the entire OpenSim
  • [13:00] Sheet Spotter: Hmmm...From Zero to Infinity. Not touching that one.
  • [13:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sheet --- ask infi your question ;-))))))
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: team is moving to work on WonderLand... any topics?
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: really?
  • [2008/11/11 13:01] Zha Ewry sits and knits little URI sweaters for all the poor nakie UUIDs in the world
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: the joke around the office is that the solution can oft be found somewhere between Zero and Infinity
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [2008/11/11 13:01] Jonit Ivory is Online
  • [13:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: looks confused, checking limbs for stretch marks
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: actually... i don't believe that Adam was serious after he discovered the WonderLand licensing terms
  • [13:02] Second Life: Your object 'Drawing Board II' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Omni Corporation from parcel '!Omni Corporation!' at Content to Hover 131, 127 due to parcel auto return.
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: and besides... i don't think he speaks for the entire OpenSim community
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: though... as always...
  • [2008/11/11 13:02] Zha Ewry shrugs Not as if anyone does
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: feel free to kvetch w/ me if we're not doing what you think we should be doing
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: Go for it Sheet --- ask Infinity before she gets onto another topic ;-)
  • [13:03] Rex Cronon: hellow everybody
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: yup... Sheet.. what up?
  • [13:03] Sheet Spotter: LOL...Not sure Inifnity can deal with source code level questions...
  • [13:03] JayR Cela: hi there Rex :_)
  • [13:03] Rex Cronon: hii
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: It's not strictily source code
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: probably not... i spend most of my day in teh server
  • [13:03] Sheet Spotter: Is out-of-order chat an indication of UDP packet loss?
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: hey yer whumpness
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: it can be
  • [13:04] Whump Linden: Hey Saijanai
  • [13:04] Morgaine Dinova: No dogding the question ;-)
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: it's could also be indicative of an overloaded sim
  • [13:04] Xugu Madison: Before we start... I need to have a worksheet for running people quickly through SL basics in 35 minutes. Anyone done anything like this befoer, and ideally haev one I can shamelessly copy?
  • [13:04] Sheet Spotter: I guess the more general question would be...What is the cause?
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:04] MasterJ Chaplin: Helllooooo
  • [13:04] MasterJ Chaplin: people
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: well we noticed a good bit of it at Zha's sim. out oforder chat and out of order rezzing of the drawing board prims
  • [13:05] Xugu Madison: (wait, there's no Zero, but he's not here this week, is he. Ack, ignore me)
  • [13:05] Sheet Spotter: At a previous meeting some were getting out of order chat while others were not.
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: the answer is slightly complex
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: but drawing board is very responsive here
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: but basically... there are a couple different ways you can get out of order chat
  • [13:05] Latif Khalifa: look at the bottom of help -> about in your client to see % of the packet loss
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: the one that's most commonly encountered is a server bug
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: there are only a certain number of things that can introduce non-determinacy, especially in time ordering of chat. Sheet's Q tries to pin down whether UDP is one possible contributor, in other words, does the UDP-based messaging have its own semantic layer to prevent out of order receipt?
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: when the server gets overloaded and there is network packet loss
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: yes... udp is a contributor
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: but so is a bit of weirdness in the server that needs to get fixed
  • [13:06] Xugu Madison: Could the client accept out of order messages but insert them into chat in order, as they arrive?
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: By bug, or by design? Does it have that resolution layer?
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: UDP packets have acks and message #s and so on
  • [13:07] Sheet Spotter: I believe there are some packets where ordering is considered critical, others where its acceptable.
  • [13:07] Morgaine Dinova: By bug and by design are very different things
  • [13:07] Latif Khalifa: empirical evidence suggest out-of-order chat happens mostly during times of high packet loss
  • [2008/11/11 13:07] Humming Pera is Online
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: but, how would you know how long to wait for packet 157 when you already have packet 195?
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: yeah... the bug is being worked on.. but it's a relatively low priority and a fair amount of work
  • [13:07] Morgaine Dinova: Does the UDP transport have the means of enforcing in-order delivery (but it's bugged), or does it not have the means?
  • [13:08] Latif Khalifa: Saij, TCP uses something called sliding window, i guess something similiar could be employed
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: No means
  • [2008/11/11 13:08] Fleep Tuque is Offline
  • [13:08] Morgaine Dinova: OK, so let's talk no more about BUG then --- it's not a bug. It's simply not in the design.
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: @Latif.. we are not re-implementing TCP again... we've done it 2 and a half times already
  • [13:08] Sheet Spotter: The message that LL layers on top of UDP can enforce an ordering, but it may choose not to for some message types.
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: if we want sliding window... we'll use TCP
  • [13:08] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, I know, just explaining Saij, how TCP does it :)
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: whew
  • [2008/11/11 13:09] Fleep Tuque is Online
  • [13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, have vague idea (need tore-reread the TCP book)
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: every now and again we have to have the argument internally...
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: (UDP vs. TCP for feature FOO)
  • [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: So, since the UDP transport has no method of ensuring in-order delivery, you're saying that the UDP system is now being EXTENDED further?
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: no...
  • [13:10] Sheet Spotter: And are these arguments fueled by coffee and donuts? LOL
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: Well, we all do it, Morgaine
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: basically what happens now is that when the sim is overloaded...
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: zha is your avatar supposed tobe a pure white texture?
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: and there are some messages from the server that don't get ack;d
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: No
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: yes, but Zero said that we will continue to live for a while with UDP legacy, but that it would not be extended.
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: oh, kool Now Morgaine is white also.
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: the next message goes into a queue that doesn't get operated on until the previous message gets acked
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: now zha is black and now grey interesting
  • [2008/11/11 13:11] Saijanai Kuhn wonders if his video card isdying
  • [13:11] Latif Khalifa: Saij. let me guess, newest nvidia driver? :P
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: no no.. this is all in the server
  • [2008/11/11 13:12] Fleep Tuque is Offline
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: but that is a popular answer to user questions...
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: "oh... it's a problem with the latest nVidia driver.. especially on MacOS X"
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: wouldnt' be surprised
  • [13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: cool, I think we're understanding one source of the comms problem, and it's good to know you're working to solve it, although putting even more eggs in the UDP basket is worrying.
  • [13:12] MasterJ Chaplin: it's depend a lot sometimes you must simply wait 5 mins adn all is laodaed suddenly too
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: but definitely lots of texture artifacts with avies right now
  • [13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Is there any other source of in-order delivery non-determinacy?
  • [13:12] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, Saij was seeing Zha all-white, no texutres, we all see her normally, how can that be a server issue lol
  • [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: and Whump is random psycodelics
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: denote dependency on different UDP messages we've received
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: nah... we're not adding new UDP messages, we're fixing the way we
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: nah... we're not adding new UDP messages, we're fixing the way we
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: denote dependency on different UDP messages we've received
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: wow... talk about out of order chat issues...
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: i'm totally having that problem now
  • [13:13] MasterJ Chaplin: ^^hehe
  • [13:14] Rex Cronon: i see your chat double
  • [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: whump's avie is flashing random textures atbaout 1 every 2-3 seconds
  • [13:14] Hermit Barber: One day we will transition to the TCP v6 which it was "urgent" to adopt as a standard in 1996 and then all these arguments can go away. Create n:m broadcast groups on demand and clients can subscribe to them as needed :-) Until then UDP remains the best way of creating ad hoc notification groups.
  • [13:14] Whump Linden: I step away one minute and someone rezzed a star gate.
  • [13:14] MasterJ Chaplin: i see all correctly here just some others texture laod slowly but that's on my side
  • [13:14] Sheet Spotter hopes Infinity gets a shiny new server for Christmas. :-)
  • [13:14] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, get rid of Xfer protocol whle you're at it, its a world of hurt ;)
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: hmm.. could be the nVidia driver giving you trouble
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: noweveryone is random.
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Are you using a Mac? I hear that UDP packets are immune to Jobs' RDF, so you see the reality of out-of-order arrival ;-))))
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: @Latif... no comment
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: or
  • [13:15] Latif Khalifa: haha
  • [2008/11/11 13:15] Saijanai Kuhn wonders what was in those cookies the roommate baked
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: "you might say that... i couldn't possibly comment"
  • [2008/11/11 13:15] KK Jewell is Online
  • [13:15] Hermit Barber: Saij: Change group tag and see if that fixes it.
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe Sai
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: newp. though you never know
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: so.. this might be the time to chat about the upcoming chat changes
  • [13:16] Latif Khalifa: some guys at Libomv were trying to implement raw texture uploads for the estate manager, and they were crying while looking at how Xfer works ;)
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: that i have totally fallen down on getting Sai information about
  • [13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Cool
  • [2008/11/11 13:16] Amalia Broome is Offline
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: its as much about service discovery and a definition for outgoing caps as about IMitself, I think
  • [13:16] MasterJ Chaplin: never try to re-texture the sim it's a pain
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: +1 Sai
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: yeah... moving chat messages from one machine to another is the simple part
  • [2008/11/11 13:17] Mirt Tenk is Offline
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: setting everything up and locating the endpoints of the conversation are the bits that are difficult
  • [13:17] Zha Ewry: The trnasport is almost ininteresting
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: as is knowing when to stop listening
  • [13:17] Zha Ewry: its what gets mapped and encoded and how non inline paytload gets managed that't hard
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: Oh. and yes, when to shut up
  • [2008/11/11 13:18] Jonit Ivory is Offline
  • [2008/11/11 13:18] Saijanai Kuhn is sitting quietly he notes...
  • [13:18] PORTAL Stargate whispers: If the map doesn't appear, please touch the portal, then click TELEPORT on the map to travel.
  • [13:18] [[User:Sheet Spotter <-- has never learned to shuddup. Oops. Proved my point. |Sheet Spotter <-- has never learned to shuddup. Oops. Proved my point. ]]:-)
  • [13:18] Latif Khalifa: that means establising an IM session, right?
  • [13:18] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: Sai was explaining earlier how service discovery is the main barrier to getting the test clients to actually handle objects.
  • [2008/11/11 13:18] Hermit Barber is Offline
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: don't know about that, but its the main barrier to estalibshing anything NEW
  • [2008/11/11 13:19] Morgaine Dinova chuckles
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: in what sense?
  • [2008/11/11 13:19] Humming Pera is Offline
  • [2008/11/11 13:20] Humming Pera is Online
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: well, we have 2 external ADs on the drawing board, but no way defined for them to talk to each other or let clients know what is available besides TP and login/logout
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: the problem with a lot of service discovery protocols is
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: they're great at distributing a description of an interface
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgain'sgroup tag is a great usecase forclient P2P
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: but what are you going to do iwth that
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: but who can set it up?
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: interface if you don;t ahve code on teh client to use it?
  • [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: well, there are several custom clients in the works, too
  • [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: the pyton based ones,libsl
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: i would LOVE to see someone build a client that allows the
  • [13:21] MasterJ Chaplin: yes about different client make the difference no?
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: simulator to download new code into the viewer
  • [13:21] Morgaine Dinova: Well SL live music has been bumping along the bottom of what should be possible for 4 years now, so live music is a good use case for almost everything. We've stopped talking about scalability, but the issue hasn't gone away.
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: to implement new features
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: i don't think it will be done here for quite some time
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: for security and trust reasons
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: well, no nedd togo as far as downloadable code, but any client but the GPL one is easier to extend
  • [13:22] Whump Linden: FYI: OGP Agent Domain and vaak sims are now back up.
  • [13:23] Sheet Spotter: I thought tools like Siverlight were trying to create those sandboxed environments.
  • [13:23] Imaze Rhiano: plugins?
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: yay!
  • [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: easier than the GPL, which is redundant o well
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: sadly... there's nothign i can really say about plugins..
  • [2008/11/11 13:23] Hermit Barber is Online
  • [2008/11/11 13:23] ee Oh is Online
  • [2008/11/11 13:23] Mmark Hancroft says hello
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: aside from getting beaten up by the general community for not supporting them
  • [13:24] MasterJ Chaplin: you mean like open source client based can be more easy to add feature?
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, not worried about them save that without service discovery and an outgoing message cap definition, we can't invent our own in an OGP-ish way
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: the LL GPL client has interesting issues with extensibility.
  • [2008/11/11 13:24] tx Oh is Offline
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: you could create your own service discovery proposal... with services efined in LLIDL
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: non LL clients came later and are moreopen-designed from teh start
  • [2008/11/11 13:25] tx Oh is Online
  • [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but outgoing protocols? nothing remotely likethat is defined
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: i use client i think it's extremly open but it's my opinion
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: v^vv^v^^v^v^vRRRRRRRRRRROOAARRRRRRRRRZZZZZv^v^v^^^v^^vv
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: client i mean
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: v^vv^v^^v^v^vRRRRRRRRRRROOAARRRRRRRRRZZZZZv^v^v^^^v^^vv
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: sorry gesture
  • [13:25] MasterJ Chaplin: rex.
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Well, plugins are a way of overcoming the fact that LL open-sourced the client code but didn't open up their SVN to the community but just keeps throwing code over the wall to us. We don't live in an ideal situation.
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: i think service discovery and plugin-architectures go hand in hand
  • [13:25] Rex Cronon: yes?
  • [13:25] Imaze Rhiano: ideally viewer would be just framework to find and install plugins
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: right...
  • [13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: but it goes back to... how do we send messages outward over a CAP?
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: but it's unlikely we'll be abandoning our legacy codebase for a while
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: ah ah
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: with the existing infrastructure
  • [13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Event Queue is easy enough, but outgoing?
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: (i mean not adding IIOP)
  • [13:27] MasterJ Chaplin: i like the possibility of realxtend viewer especialy the python scripting part can be good to have it on OGP
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: you can POST or GET to a cap
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: and you can have the distant object behind the cap
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: post it's messages to the client to the event queue
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: but that's where Sai's suggestion comes in. You won't abandon (nor change fast enough) your old code base, but given service discovery, we could implement services externally and hence not be dependent on your slow speed.
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but take group IM. how do I send UDP IIM messages out over a cap? There's the XML-LLSD equivalent, but what's the basic method?
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: we know how toreceive but not send
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: i would assume one would send an IM by posting to the appropriate channel
  • [13:29] Latif Khalifa: not for the group IMs, its a bit more involved than that, the current implementation that is
  • [13:29] Morgaine Dinova: MasterJ: what can the Python scripting in realxtend control? Just local client matters, or more?
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: that's kinda open-ended
  • [13:30] Infinity Linden: @Latif... what do you mean?
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: I mean, there's a packet format for incoming messages in the EQG. Do we just assume that hte other end will know what we're talkign about, or wrap it in the EQG messages wrapper or roll our own or...?
  • [13:30] Second Life: Your object 'sample 3D tracker' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Omni Corporation from parcel '!Omni Corporation!' at Content to Hover 131, 130 due to parcel auto return.
  • [13:30] MasterJ Chaplin: morgaine: i don't have test all because i just start in python scripting but it's good to see a prim show you a mini demo of possibility for example
  • [13:30] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, right now the client needs to join the group session first, before it can send messages to group chat
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: right... so what we're going to need to define is a search capability
  • [13:31] Latif Khalifa: it can recieve the messages from the group chat without it though
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: or a profile capability
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: that allows the client to find the cap for the object representing the group
  • [13:31] Latif Khalifa: (that's current proto implementation)
  • [2008/11/11 13:31] JayR Cela is Offline
  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: MasterJ: that's interesting if the Python in realxtend can interact with in-world objects. I wonder what mechanism it uses.
  • [2008/11/11 13:31] Ina Centaur is Offline
  • [13:31] MasterJ Chaplin: group chat and on teh way we can see for conference chat too
  • [2008/11/11 13:32] Ina Centaur is Online
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: so if i wanted to send a message to group foo
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: i would need to find foo's cap
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: then post a session initiation message to it
  • [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: there's several issues with group IM. Some are specific to IIM and some are generic. Generic: how do you send outgoing messages of ANY kind? "POST" isnt' a complete enough answer for me.
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: foo's cap would respond with another cap that represents a session
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: you post to the session
  • [2008/11/11 13:33] tx Oh is Offline
  • [13:33] MasterJ Chaplin: for a fast answer you have a special *rex* feature that's allow you to drop a name class (the script) on the prim for say it's use python feature but i'm a bit lose to expalin mechanism here and it's not really the most important actually ;) hehe
  • [2008/11/11 13:34] Keex Rexroth is Online
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: then the agent domain would send a message down the event queues of all members of group foo
  • [13:35] MasterJ Chaplin: about Im group issue the most problem i have when i use standard client is on Big group i can't send IM or participate when i use the release cnadidate it's ok ...
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: with an alert that it's going to start receiving messages
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: there's a few more things involved though with the current IIM. YOu have to receive packets from the eventqueue get to populate the outgoing IIM's, for example
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: what we need to define are the service interfaces for session initiation, session tear down, IM incoming, post message and receive message
  • [2008/11/11 13:36] Zha Ewry nods you need those
  • [2008/11/11 13:36] Cindy Jewell is Offline
  • [13:36] Zha Ewry: and you need some good way of putting refrerneces to things in the framework inside messages, properly escaped
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: hmm... how did i know you were going to say that Zha?
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: would we be using the current Agent Domain "heartbeat" cap for incoming messages, or request a new one?
  • [2008/11/11 13:37] Zha Ewry laughs
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: I assume we're talking about the IM resource that represents an IM "session", not HTTPS sessions. The IM session is just resource state, basically a time-ordered list for each group, and the resource accepts our PUT and shoves it into the appropriate list, and from there you get a fanout of deliveries.
  • [13:37] Zha Ewry: because I have it on a gesuture?
  • [2008/11/11 13:37] Cindy Jewell is Online
  • [2008/11/11 13:37] tx Oh is Online
  • [2008/11/11 13:37] Zha Ewry isn't very interested in the tubes, but what goes over the tubes, in this case
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: right... having a way to represent items like URLs, locations,
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: agent profiles, inventory, etc. would be necessary
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure ifxmlllsd or LLIDL is up to the task for IIM. its pretty complcated/convoluted
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: mmm... are you suggesting we write it in ZOPE?
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: noe, just not sure howti will work... https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: no... i think we could do it in LLIDL.. but we would need something more than just LLIDL/LLSD
  • [13:39] Zha Ewry: You need to be able to describe how to do the escaping,t oo
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: we would have to define the semantics of the messages
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: right... we would / should have a "standard" way to represent things that aren't text that are sent via IM
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: krunk.
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: or any other non text coming over a cap
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: it might be that simply wrapping IIM was a pipe-dream
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: or leaving, for that matter
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: maybe we should have an OGP service
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure either way
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: that simply uses the same code
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: so you could have a sim that still responded to IIM
  • [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: IIM comes in via UDP binary even now. Not sure if the xml was intended to handle it or not
  • [2008/11/11 13:41] Saijanai Kuhn doubles over, suddenly sick
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: but you would have another service on the AD that speaks IIM to the sim
  • [13:41] Zha Ewry: XML wrapping should be trivial
  • [13:41] Sheet Spotter: What's an example of non-text that needs to be escaped? An SLURL is purely text.
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: yeah... you can do binary encodings like BASE64 and so forth
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: @Sheet... yeah... but we're talking about SLURLs tha might be off the grid
  • [13:42] MasterJ Chaplin: complicated no?
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: on osmeone elses grid
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Teravus had some issues with that. Not sure exactly what, but not something I've dealt with
  • [13:42] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, but overall architecure would remain same? The client only talks to the sim, the sim acts as a grand proxy to ad, assets, and the rest of the known universe?
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: and in the future when assets will live on other people's asset servers
  • [13:43] Imaze Rhiano: I don't think that base64 is going to effecient method to transfrer non-text data... like textures in long term - maybe for IMs...
  • [13:43] Latif Khalifa: but they would they be proxied by the sim, or would the client connect to those asset servers directlt?
  • [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: I have an idea for your IM UDP upgrade work: tag the reposts coming from your second queue in some way, and let a client with some Advanced->DebugSettings enabled indicate which are retransmitted lines. Then we would see the problem live.
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: @Latif... kinda... we've been talking mostly about group IM in the past, which would be managed by the agent host in the agent domain
  • [13:43] Sheet Spotter: I'm blissfuly assuming that it's the client's responsibility to assign a non-text meaning to something that goes over a text-based medium, like IM.
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: though, you can send any inventory over IIM. Not sure if its UUIDs only or what, but "binary bucket" is pretty generic
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: yeah... it's kinda barfy.. but isn't there a lot of existing infrastruture that sends binary data over a HTTP pipe where the content is BASE64 encoded
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: but then gzipped before sending?
  • [2008/11/11 13:45] Humming Pera is Offline
  • [13:45] Latif Khalifa: Saij, right now IIM is used to inform you that you have recieved inventory, actual transfer occurs on the db server, client is not involved with it at all
  • [13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
  • [2008/11/11 13:45] Cindy Jewell is Offline
  • [13:45] Imaze Rhiano: SL might someday be gaming platform... you want best performance from transport then
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: @Sheet... yes and no... you don't want to be able to type in a reference to a protected distant asset
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: (hmm... or maybe you do)
  • [13:45] Latif Khalifa: in fact if you don't respond, the default is to accept it, so you don't have to do anything client side
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: in the past, it has been discovered that premature optimization is a serious contributor to system brittleness
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: (witness the current situation)
  • [2008/11/11 13:46] Cindy Jewell is Online
  • [13:46] Sheet Spotter: My bad. I assumed we were discussing group IM, not the broader class of traffic that includes sending of inventory, etc.
  • [13:46] Latif Khalifa: (unless the inventory offer comes from an object in wich case you need to accept it, since the default is the refuse it, causing a lot of percieved inventory loss we have today)
  • [13:46] MasterJ Chaplin: client tell the server to do something and the server do the job if i'm right
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: we decided we needed to use UDP everywhere because that's "the fastest" way to do things
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Sheet, the IIM inform the clinet of inventory transfer
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: but then we decided that we needed smoe features of TCP, so we added them on top of our own UDP message system
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: pretty much all MMO systems allow you to paste object references into the chat stream, and it makes for excellent communication. Yes, we definitely do want that.
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: and we didn't do nearly as good a job
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: right... object references... not objects themselves
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Correct
  • [13:48] Zha Ewry: Everyone who doesn't use TCP recreates it,
  • [13:48] Zha Ewry: and they almosyt always do it badly
  • [13:48] Sheet Spotter: I (wrongly?) assumed inventory transfers, etc were innappropriate for a text based interface like group IM. I had my wires crossed.
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
  • [13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: haha, yes, a great paraphrase ;-)
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: look at the table at the bottom Sheet
  • [2008/11/11 13:49] Sheet Spotter does not use TCP. It's not appropriate to his RL work.
  • [13:49] Imaze Rhiano: UDP is good for stream data transfer - where losing bits doesn't matter... but most of MMO games are slowly converting to TCP
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: right.. UDP is appropriate for a lot of different thigns
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: and i'm still trying to figure out how we can do object updates and movement via TCP
  • [13:49] Xugu Madison: Imaze, converting _to_? Interesting
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: That's why I'm so disappointed that the UDP messaging is being extended. It's the wrong approach, and goes against the very reason why UDP was chosen (mistakenly). Just cut your losses and move to TCP or SCTP.
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I thought it was NOT being extended...
  • [13:50] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, you are not seriously contemplating doing object updates over tcp?
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: SCTP is not supported (widely) by a certain very large router manufacturer
  • [13:50] Sheet Spotter: UDP can be the ideal choice for some messages. Not all.
  • [13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Ininity just said she's extending it. She's adding in-order message control.
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: @Latif... yup... i am
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: but i'm also considering making object updates an extension to RTP
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: thot she was referrng to the existing system
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: that way there'll be a UDP definition
  • [13:50] Latif Khalifa: and people tought SL was laggy before :P
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: and a more or less canonical technique for wrapping UDP messages in TCP
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: @Latif... interstingly... it's not the TCP that's causing the problems
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: btu
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: i am sworn to secrecy on the details of the topic
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: you're mistaking shagginess from protocol overhead with shagginess because the low-level UDP messaging is inadequate and fails and is now being patched to more resemble TCP ... which negates the whole gain of using UDP in the first place.
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: TCP will cause more problems with stuff like object updates than it would solve IMHP
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: what i can say is (and the OpenSim folks have probably already encountered this)
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, TCP is a single pipe
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: you can have as many pipe as you want.
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: UDP is ideal for things like object updates, where you want multiple massive paralel updates going
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, no you cannot
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: that if we had the ability to prioritize packets, either TCP or UDP, we would live in a better world
  • [13:52] MasterJ Chaplin: ok it's late here badly i must log off ... see you next time
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Or use SCTP and you automatically have N bundles per SCTP session.
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: (that is... the application layer could tag a message as being of a higher priority to the network)
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: we don't do that
  • [13:53] Sheet Spotter: QOS?
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: 64k TCP streams not enough for you? The number of TCP ports is exactly the same as the number of UDP ports.
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: is QOS? a four letter word?
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: but yeah... widely respected QOS tags in IPv4 would have been nice
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:54] Sheet Spotter: Quality of Service. It what keeps my dang VOIP phone working. Mostly.
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: oh well.. .we don't have that
  • [13:54] Rex Cronon: if u don't care if some packets get lost than udp is better
  • [13:55] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, if you ever implemeted a real system you would know that things go south when you try to maintain more than about 1000 open tcp conections, and if you want multiple tcp sessions on a sim, and you have 4 - 16 sims on a server you would know that TCP streams become scarse resource
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: QoS isn't used much, so it's more of a "foreign" word than a 4-letter word. :-) But SCTP implements QoS in another way, by allowing different bundles to have different priorities.
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn goes back to original question: how to define outgoing generic messages from client to AD or other service wihtout using UDP
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: @Latif... depends on your OS and execution environment...
  • [13:55] Latif Khalifa: i am talking real world here, not some academic 64k limit
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: that's one of the reasons that IBM big iron still has a place in the world...
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: no straw men please. You know very well that we don't need 1000+ priority queues.
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: i've seen smoe of those machines do some pretty incredible things with 30,000+ connections at a time
  • [13:56] Latif Khalifa: 4 - 16 sims, 40 agents each, multiple tcp streams, go figure
  • [13:56] Zha Ewry: per NIC, Latif
  • [13:56] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, we are talking about commodity hardware here, that runs the sims
  • [13:56] Zha Ewry: since most of the sims are on a server with several cores running
  • [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif that already exists. EQG for 5 sims per avatar
  • [13:56] Latif Khalifa: plain old Linux debian boxes
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: plus.. remember.. IP connections are a 5-tuple... not a simple port number
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [2008/11/11 13:57] Thoys Pan is Offline
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: or more if you have your distance turned up.
  • [13:57] Latif Khalifa: Zha, multiple core does not matter, they're still on the same IP, all 4-16 sims
  • [2008/11/11 13:57] Anders Falworth is Online
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: Which makes it worse, not better
  • [13:57] Latif Khalifa: exactly
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: its per NIC, you need to acocunt for
  • [13:57] Latif Khalifa: Zha, that's what I am saying
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: right... while Zha would probably love me to try to get everyone here
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: to buy an AS/400, it's probably not in the works
  • [2008/11/11 13:58] Zha Ewry laughs
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: No no
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: A rack of cell boxes
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: with bluegene fabric
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: I can get you a quote on that
  • [13:58] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: You only need a small set of TCP sessions, just so that you can stripe comms across them or use them to get a variety of priorities (which becomes a form of QoS) or to overcome delivery blockage. Lot of options
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: runninng 64 bit debian
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: with a really nice set of messaging support
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: including UDP and IP over shared memory fabric
  • [13:59] Latif Khalifa: i still think if you move object updates over to TCP you're going to end up in a wolrd of hurt :)
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: okay.... Zha... do you get a commission if i buy a cell-processor blade server through you?
  • [2008/11/11 13:59] Zha Ewry smiles broadly
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: ack...
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: i have to run...
  • [13:59] Sheet Spotter: Thank you for this hour, Infinity.
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: i have a hard stop at 2PM SLT
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [13:59] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Infi
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: again... diagrams would be nice
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: Thanks folks
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: and it's totally my fault they haven't been forthcoming
  • [13:59] Rex Cronon: bye infinity
  • [14:00] Imaze Rhiano: bye
  • [14:00] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think SLT actually exists anymore, since they switched the client to displaying PST.
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: so i'm going to work on some before i go home this evening
  • [2008/11/11 14:00] Bjorlyn Loon is Online
  • [14:00] Imaze Rhiano: there is intresting blog about REST and binary here: "Binary Object REst Distributed (BORED) System" - http://blog.livemedia.com.au/
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: cool
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: I think, on the whole
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks Infinity
  • [14:00] Sheet Spotter: Have a wonderful day, everyone! I have to run off too.
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: good acronyms are an important part of any technology
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: the issue is less UDP vs TCP
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: cheers all
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: than havign the right balance
  • [2008/11/11 14:01] Enus Linden is Offline
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: The right balance is 0:N. Like Zero says in his favourite phrase, it's a "bad semantic fit".
  • [14:01] Latif Khalifa: Zha, agree 100%, that's why I think this movement to abandon UDP altogether is going to make a lot of trouble
  • [2008/11/11 14:01] Saijanai Kuhn doesn't care. Just wants a nice working (workable) definition for outgoing data streams
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: it's UDP that's causing the trouble ;-)
  • [2008/11/11 14:02] Enus Linden is Online
  • [2008/11/11 14:02] Thoys Pan is Online
  • [14:02] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, no its not
  • [14:02] Latif Khalifa: its using UDP for what its not well suited for
  • [14:02] Latif Khalifa: sending IM over UDP -> madness
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, in this instance, its defining something that can handle the existing UDP packets over thehttp protocol if its possible. gorup IIM shoudl work fine in a non-UDP world
  • [14:02] Rex Cronon: udp is NOT the problem
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: Infinity explained just half an hour ago how it's causing the problems.
  • [14:03] Latif Khalifa: sending object position updates over TCP -> madness
  • [14:03] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, for chat
  • [14:03] Latif Khalifa: not for terse object position updates
  • [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: for some strange definition of "terse"
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: For things wher you genuinely dont' mind a dropped packet
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: UDP is fine
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: the problem at the moment
  • [14:03] Morgaine Dinova: UDP carries a lot more than positioning updates, lol
  • [14:03] Latif Khalifa: exactly
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: is using UDP for eveyrhign
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: and making it reliable
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: at which point
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: you have TCP
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: just bad TCP
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: so
  • [14:04] Morgaine Dinova: If UDP carried only positioning updates, nobody would be complaining, lol
  • [14:04] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, do you have any idea how SL work right now
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: shuffle off all the reliable stuff
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: to TCP
  • [2008/11/11 14:04] Bjorlyn Loon is Offline
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: and keep the stuff where you really don't care in UDP
  • [14:04] Latif Khalifa: Zha, exactly
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: LL ObjectUpdate packet is NOT "terese": https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ObjectUpdate
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: and if you drop a posiion update
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: terse*
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: fine
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: Terse isn't the issue Saij
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: its reliable
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: sure
  • [14:04] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: do you have a clue about anything at all? (If you stop the ad hominems, so will I --- you started).
  • [14:04] Latif Khalifa: Saij, there is a full object update, and its terse object update
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: as long as the packets can be dropped
  • [14:04] Whump Linden: frack
  • [2008/11/11 14:04] Bjorlyn Loon is Online
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: UDP is ok
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry: as soon as you *need* reliable
  • [14:05] Zha Ewry: UDP sucks
  • [14:05] Morgaine Dinova: Correct
  • [14:05] Latif Khalifa: I will just mute Morgaine ;)
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: though itleads to anther issue: how to refactor those packets to avoid sending that entire packet with every character in Hermit's mesage
  • [14:05] Latif Khalifa: Sai, we know have a full object update when stuff like shape or texture or size is changed
  • [14:05] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: try to be an engineer here. Muting solves nothing except your ego problems. Discuss the tech without resorting to ad hominems and all will be fine.
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: also for floating text
  • [14:06] Latif Khalifa: there is terse compressed object update, that basically tells you "i am here"
  • [14:06] Latif Khalifa: so when someone fires a gun, and bullet flies next to you
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, but nothing inbetween
  • [14:06] Latif Khalifa: all 20 or 40 agents get a stream of terse updates explaining where the object is
  • [2008/11/11 14:06] Fleep Tuque is Online
  • [2008/11/11 14:06] Amalia Broome is Online
  • [14:07] Latif Khalifa: or if i start to run around you, every agent needs to be informed where exacly am i standing
  • [14:07] Latif Khalifa: now, implementing that in TCP would be pure madness
  • [14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm intermediateISizePacketUpdate: relevant identification info, dataname, data lengthbyte(s) and one item of data
  • [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: to replace this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ObjectUpdate
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: actually, Latif, its not clear it would be madness
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: But, if you don't mind that every so often
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: you will skip an update
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: UDP will do just fine for that
  • [14:09] Latif Khalifa: Zha, you want to send position updated to possibly 40 agents over error and flow checked TCP?
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: The 40 isn't the issue, as the 40 UDP packets go to the same 40
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: the rrror and flow checked might be
  • [14:09] Morgaine Dinova: It's horses for courses. If you want to fill in RELIABLE positional updating with additional high speed hints (just to reduce the average granularity of updates), then fine, UDP could be used for that. But positional updates ARE NOT ALL OPTIONAL. Position is too important a matter to be left to unreliable UDP packets alone.
  • [14:10] Morgaine Dinova: I think that's the key point.
  • [14:10] Morgaine Dinova: POSITIONAL UPDATES ARE NOT OPTIONAL
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: The balance point might well be to
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: send the updates both ways
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: UDP a lot
  • [14:10] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: and a reliable sync every so often
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: or
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: possibly
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: even by request
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: if the client hasn't seen an update in a while
  • [2008/11/11 14:11] Zha Ewry muses
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: or a dynmic throttle
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: Start with all UDP
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: and raise the percentage on TCP if you miss too many
  • [2008/11/11 14:11] Zha Ewry shrugs
  • [14:11] Morgaine Dinova: Well, those requests just add overhead for no purpose. The sim is best placed to know when you need an update, although of course you could always say "I've screwed myself, gimme a sync pls"
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: using UDP whenyou wanr reliable
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: is clearly not useful
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Aye
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: but. making TCP do what UDP well
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: isn't sane either
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: *does well
  • [2008/11/11 14:12] Humming Pera is Online
  • [2008/11/11 14:13] Tree Kyomoon is Online
  • [14:13] Rex Cronon: there is a very simple way to resolve this contorversy:)
  • [14:13] Morgaine Dinova: That's whyt I prefer the "fill in" method. UDP should be just an optimization, filling in between TCP updates for finer granularity, but optional. After all, UDP delivery is optional anyway, lol
  • [14:13] Latif Khalifa: there is no contraversy
  • [14:13] Rex Cronon: implement a client and a server that uses TCP:)
  • [14:13] Rex Cronon: .
  • [2008/11/11 14:13] Which Linden is Online
  • [14:13] Morgaine Dinova: There is no controversy at an engineering level.
  • [2008/11/11 14:13] joao Mastroianni is Offline
  • [2008/11/11 14:13] SignpostMarv Martin is Online
  • [14:13] Latif Khalifa: there is a reason why there is no multi-agent simulation that uses tcp for real-time scene updates to the cliuent
  • [14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: they've done that with the current client, to some extent. Measured what is moreefficient. The design is supposed to allow on-the-fly adjstments
  • [14:14] Latif Khalifa: perhaps there are some acedemic papers on the subject that say otherwise
  • [14:14] Latif Khalifa: but nothing in the real world use it, period. and for a good reason
  • [14:14] Rex Cronon: i think there might be some games that do use TCP
  • [14:14] Latif Khalifa: if SL wants to go down road, there is nothing I can do about it
  • [14:15] Imaze Rhiano: here is intresting image tranfer protocol that uses UDP: http://www.ieee-icnp.org/2000/papers/2000-19.pdf
  • [2008/11/11 14:15] Tree Kyomoon is Offline
  • [14:16] Morgaine Dinova: This is one reason why I propose every now and then that SCTP be looked at. The only big downside of TCP for media transport was the blocked channel problem (one lost packet delaying everything for the retransmit interval), and they dealt with that using bundles. Latency of TCP was never a problem, that's just FUD.
  • [14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Latency of TCP is a problem if you open a new stream for every message, but nobody sane does that ;-)
  • [2008/11/11 14:18] Tess Linden is Online
  • [14:18] Imaze Rhiano: I think that things should be keep simple in first version...
  • [2008/11/11 14:18] Enus Linden is Offline
  • [14:18] Imaze Rhiano: use TCP where it is used now... and UDP otherwise - fix later
  • [14:19] Latif Khalifa: SCTP is also some academic proposal that has no practical value
  • [14:19] Imaze Rhiano: don't start implementing new protocols that are not yet widely tested yet
  • [2008/11/11 14:19] Ina Centaur is Offline
  • [14:19] Morgaine Dinova: There goes Latif again. FUD is his middle name
  • [14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: well that is what they are doing for the most part. However, group IM is a special case. There's been no talkof defining UDP between client and Agent Domain
  • [2008/11/11 14:19] Ina Centaur is Online
  • [14:19] Imaze Rhiano: if possible change to TCP
  • [14:19] Latif Khalifa: anyone proposing to do anything other than TCP/UDP does not have an idea what regular users will be capable of using
  • [2008/11/11 14:19] Morgaine Dinova sighs
  • [14:20] Latif Khalifa: no, "real world" is my name
  • [14:20] Imaze Rhiano giggles to morgiaine :P
  • [14:20] Latif Khalifa: what is possible to implement in reasonable time frame
  • [2008/11/11 14:20] Humming Pera is Offline
  • [14:21] Imaze Rhiano: depends of defination of the "reasonable time frame" :P
  • [14:21] Morgaine Dinova: SCTP is implemented on all current normal systems. But if you don't want to use it, fine, the same design is possible using TCP streams instead of SCTP bundles. Just more work.
  • [14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, that's why I was (AM?) hoping to get the ball rolling with a group IM implementation. Infinity is well aware of how much debate has goine on with no action on that front
  • [14:21] Latif Khalifa: exactly
  • [14:22] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, Sai's taking a good approach by doing instead of FUD'ing
  • [14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: so, I'm trying to get them to define how implementing the current gorup IM packets would work using the CAP system instead of UDP
  • [2008/11/11 14:22] Zha Ewry getys sucked off to RL and leaves the TCP/UDP discussion to the transciprt
  • [14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: and I think it exposes a lot of flaws in the design, but not sure
  • [14:22] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Zha, have fun
  • [14:23] Imaze Rhiano: let's not ask them - just post premilinary design document.. that should cause reaction...
  • [14:23] Imaze Rhiano: bye zha
  • [14:23] Rex Cronon: bye zha
  • [14:23] Second Life: Your object 'Drawing Board II' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Zero Linden from parcel 'Zero's Ground' at Grasmere 174, 107 due to parcel auto return.
  • [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: which is my problem. I'm a newbie to this stuff and I can't tell how much is ignorance and how much is shortcoming of the design
  • [14:23] Morgaine Dinova: What Imaze says seems to be true ... LL react more to competing designs than to suggestions ;-)
  • [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: laters Zha