User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 November 06

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  • [8:25] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning all :-)
  • [8:25] Rex Cronon: hii
  • [8:25] Tree Kyomoon: weeee
  • [8:26] Rex Cronon: u really broke a bone tree:)
  • [8:26] Morgaine Dinova: Almost no groupies online other than us
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: yes my meat puppet in RL squishe his hand under a 100lb granite stone
  • [8:27] Morgaine Dinova: Ouch! :-(
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: dumbass
  • [8:27] Rex Cronon: sorry to hear that
  • [8:27] Rex Cronon: wish u fast healing, and full recovery
  • [8:27] Tree Kyomoon: fortunately just caught the fingertips...one broke
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Looking like no Infinity today. When was Zero returning?
  • [8:28] Tree Kyomoon: so im a 7 finger typist today :)
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Ouch :-(
  • [8:28] Kerry Giha: I saw infinity in the sim earlier.
  • [8:28] Kerry Giha: Probably just currently busy.
  • [8:28] Tree Kyomoon: can one actually "see" infinity?
  • [8:29] Rex Cronon: that object was created today so is recent
  • [8:29] Kerry Giha: I didn't even notice that
  • [8:29] Tree Kyomoon: ah so theres no meeting today officially then...awww
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Is Zero on holiday, or something else?
  • [8:30] Kerry Giha: I was hoping there would be some secrets revieled too hehe.
  • [8:31] Kerry Giha: Not sure.
  • [8:31] Morgaine Dinova: Aha, Sai is on
  • [8:31] Tree Kyomoon: me tries to think of a secret to reveal
  • [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: "journey to the center of the earth" ends with the protagonists popping up in italy
  • [8:32] Morgaine Dinova: Must be a long secret ;-)
  • [8:32] Kerry Giha: I was referring to the secrets involved in exactly how SL IM work.
  • [8:32] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [8:33] Kerry Giha: well anyhow
  • [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Kerry: LL doesn't know how IM works either
  • [8:33] Rex Cronon: something weird going on
  • [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai, how goes?
  • [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: zzzzz new meds doing new med stuff
  • [8:33] Kerry Giha: I dont think there is Office hours today
  • [8:33] Rex Cronon: hi sai
  • [8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all
  • [8:34] Kerry Giha: That sign was created today so it is prolly ment for this one :)
  • [8:35] Morgaine Dinova: What's EQG?
  • [8:36] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Event Queue Get CAP
  • [8:36] Morgaine Dinova: Get yourself a coffee, Sai :-))))
  • [8:36] Tree Kyomoon: is SL using caps these days?
  • [8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Is the event queue in operation then?
  • [8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Via long poll?
  • [8:42] Tree Kyomoon: sounds like tcp...are we off UDP now?
  • [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Nah, sadly.
  • [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Don't think Sai is with us.
  • [8:44] Tree Kyomoon: things seem to have slowed significantly.
  • [8:44] Tree Kyomoon: wonders if the new opensim pricing will hurt SL
  • [8:45] Chaley May: no zero?
  • [8:45] Morgaine Dinova: That's why I was asking where Zero's got too ... he kept things moving, or at least the appearance of it.
  • [8:45] Rex Cronon: no lindens at all chaley
  • [8:45] Rex Cronon: they bailed out
  • [8:45] Rex Cronon:  :)
  • [8:45] Chaley May: aww why?
  • [8:45] Tree Kyomoon: mabey having an obama party
  • [8:46] Kerry Giha: The sign has some data on reasons.
  • [8:46] Kerry Giha: Above the couch
  • [8:46] Rex Cronon: i think the lindens got lost in the code, while tring so find out how IM works:)
  • [8:46] Chaley May: tnx
  • [8:47] Chaley May: i think SL will suffer over the new open space changes
  • [8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Curvature of space approaches infinity as you get closer to the IM code .... you never quite reach it.
  • [8:48] Rex Cronon: aka "black hole" :)
  • [8:48] Morgaine Dinova: Very black
  • [8:48] Rex Cronon: i think the lindens made some changes regarding the openspace sims
  • [8:49] Rex Cronon: the new policy is a little different than the original one
  • [8:49] Chaley May: new policy is on some ways worse
  • [8:49] Morgaine Dinova: No changes that matter. Sims are still non-scalable, by design, so the root of the problem won't go away.
  • [8:49] Tree Kyomoon: is that akin to fractal measurement?
  • [8:49] Morgaine Dinova: Well, the "frac" part of that is right ;-)
  • [8:50] Tree Kyomoon: like..how long is a coastline...depends on how big your ruler is...
  • [8:50] Chaley May: the problem with SL is it was wrong from the start.. sims have too many prims for too little area
  • [8:51] Kerry Giha: what if your ruler was 1 planck length?
  • [8:51] Tree Kyomoon: too many prims? Id argue the opposite
  • [8:51] Rex Cronon: i don't think so chaley, the computer can take it
  • [8:51] Chaley May: sure the computer can take it.. but its peoples wallets that cant
  • [8:51] Tree Kyomoon: we need more procedurals and more prims
  • [8:51] Chaley May: people want space
  • [8:51] Morgaine Dinova: That's not the problem at all. The problem is that prim counts were coupled to land acreage because of the static sim tiling, so the whole design is a disaster waiting to happen.
  • [8:52] Tree Kyomoon: what isnt a disaster waiting to happen in all existence?
  • [8:52] Rim Skytower: HI, I'm looking for Zero's office, and the AMG people.
  • [8:52] Chaley May: look on the mainland.. people hate being grouped so close to their neighbours house
  • [8:52] Kerry Giha: Who are the AMG people?
  • [8:52] Rex Cronon: hi rim. u found the right place
  • [8:53] Tree Kyomoon: AMG-architecture mangling group
  • [8:53] Rex Cronon: but there are no lindens around
  • [8:53] Rim Skytower: ty, Rex.
  • [8:53] Rex Cronon: he means awg
  • [8:53] Tree Kyomoon:  ;)
  • [8:53] Kerry Giha: hehe ok
  • [8:53] Morgaine Dinova: OpenSims will be able to offer huge estates for L$1, since inactive land acreage is just disk space, which costs nothing these days. So LL's revenue stream is going to collapse as soon as we have interop .... but that's what they chose. Madness.
  • [8:53] Chaley May: open spaces have the perfect ratio of prims to space
  • [8:54] Chaley May: yes
  • [8:54] Chaley May: LL needs to recognice bigger spaces and limit the prims only
  • [8:55] Chaley May: with prims being so spread out there will be less objects to draw within viewer range
  • [8:55] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed. Prims entail CPU usage and bandwidth, they need hard limits. But land acreage has almost no resource implication, so coupling the two is nuts. And they will pay for that bad design.
  • [8:55] Chaley May: right now we draw every single object in neighbours houses which we will never see
  • [8:55] Rex Cronon: unless u have 50 or more people all filled with prims in close proximity of one another:)
  • [8:56] Kerry Giha: Spread out? whatcha mean you can still pile them all in the center of the sim if ya want.
  • [8:56] Chaley May: of course
  • [8:56] Chaley May: but on average all prims will be spread out
  • [8:56] Chaley May: over the whole grid
  • [8:57] Tree Kyomoon: yes, having to download and draw things that arent ultimately visible seems dumb...and relatively solvable
  • [8:57] Kerry Giha: Well I think that LL may be a little shy anymore about just letting things go unclear like that.
  • [8:57] Chaley May: having so many prims so close which we dont want close to us is costing us
  • [8:58] Kerry Giha: It seems that it would still leave the remote possibility that sims would still be used unexpectedly and cause problems.
  • [8:58] Rex Cronon: there is nothing u can do about that chaley
  • [8:58] Rex Cronon: prims want to be close to one another:)
  • [8:58] Chaley May: open spaces did that perfectly
  • [8:58] Chaley May: but clubs shouldve been forced off of open spaces
  • [8:58] Chaley May: and malls
  • [8:59] Chaley May: and too many subdivided rental plots
  • [8:59] Kerry Giha: I think LL bent over backwards with the current plans to support Sims that use lots of resources being upgraded to homesteads and sims being used as open spaces as intended staying openspace sims.
  • [9:00] Chaley May: umm how have they bent over backwards?
  • [9:00] Chaley May: they changed their names
  • [9:00] Kerry Giha: Delaying the price increace completly till july was a nice thing to do as well.
  • [9:01] Chaley May: but the price increase is still a bad thing
  • [9:01] Morgaine Dinova: Who is the Linden most in charge of the client?
  • [9:01] Chaley May: its easy to give more time
  • [9:01] Tree Kyomoon: m linden is
  • [9:01] Tree Kyomoon: most in charge i think
  • [9:02] Kerry Giha: The hard caps across the entire openspace sims would be the most logical solution to fixing the performance problems.
  • [9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Looking up
  • [9:02] Tree Kyomoon: Mabey they already tried that and it didnt work
  • [9:02] Kerry Giha: Then people who have residences on thoes sims would find their sims not as usefull.
  • [9:02] Tree Kyomoon: im just sayin
  • [9:02] Rex Cronon: attention(for those that came a little late): today there are no lindens here. just letting u know
  • [9:02] Chaley May: but what they are doing is making people pay more for the same amount of server space... there is no justive in that
  • [9:02] Chaley May: justice
  • [9:03] Tree Kyomoon: all lindens have been abducted by aliens
  • [9:03] Rim Skytower: Thanks, Rex. We'll just quietly get up to speed...
  • [9:03] Tree Kyomoon: in space...that giant space war...what can they do?
  • [9:03] Rex Cronon: ok
  • [9:04] Kerry Giha: What do you mean same ammount of server space? You mean as in prims your are alloted or resources it now costs LL?
  • [9:04] Tree Kyomoon: I think its a resource/support cost
  • [9:04] Chaley May: same amount of server space meaning 16 homesteads per server
  • [9:04] Tree Kyomoon: customers are expensive to support
  • [9:05] Rim Skytower: As a quick introductoion, if I may: I'm coming here with interest (and wanting to make contributions to AWG) as a community builder - having worked with Howard Rheingold, who is a long-time friend, for many years
  • [9:05] Chaley May: if they dropped it to 12 homesteads per server then the price increases make sense
  • [9:05] Chaley May: but they arent
  • [9:05] Tree Kyomoon: my guess is they found OS customers were as much if not more difficult to support than full sim customers so they jacked up the price to compensate
  • [9:06] Elric Ember: Welcome Rim
  • [9:06] Chaley May: that doesnt seem to be true
  • [9:06] Tree Kyomoon: I, for one, can be a major pain in the butt
  • [9:06] Kerry Giha: Looking at this from the LL point of view you have to understand that servers and sims are expensive things to operate. Pretty much the tier fee goes to paying for server costs including running them and the bandwidth they use.
  • [9:06] Tree Kyomoon: particularly if you sit on my head
  • [9:07] Rex Cronon: welcome rim, and have a great time reading all the transcripts:)
  • [9:07] Chaley May: all openspaces are owned by people who allready pay for a full sim
  • [9:07] Chaley May: and they usually have multiple OSes
  • [9:07] Kerry Giha: The illusion that they are just raking in the money is just that (an illusion).
  • [9:07] Tree Kyomoon: I know people who have opensims but no full sim
  • [9:07] Chaley May: people paying over $2000 monthly
  • [9:08] Chaley May: I have heard of that too Tree but that is a mistake.. LL shouldnt be doing that
  • [9:08] Tree Kyomoon: I bet LL is still losing money. The CoLab alone is brutally expensive
  • [9:08] Kerry Giha: For example there is this group of sims that are for sailing where about 90% is water.
  • [9:08] Kerry Giha: That is what LL had in mind for openspace sims.
  • [9:08] Tree Kyomoon: +300 employees must mean millions per month in costs
  • [9:09] Chaley May: thats the problem with just having it in mind... thats their mind and not their customers
  • [9:09] Morgaine Dinova: All this is history. AWG ought to be talking about how to avoid such problems in the future, not rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
  • [9:10] Tree Kyomoon: there has to be a reason no one else is trying to really compete with SL
  • [9:10] Morgaine Dinova: It's because there's no interop yet, Tree
  • [9:10] Tree Kyomoon: I think its because theres no profit model
  • [9:10] Morgaine Dinova: Pointless creating a separate walled garden.
  • [9:10] Kerry Giha: I have seen clubs and malls on openspace sims. These sims basically rob performance from people who are using sims like intended. The solution would be to let people keep their sims like they have them and just have them pay for the resources they consume.
  • [9:10] Rex Cronon: they r waiting for sl server code to be free of bugs:)
  • [9:11] Tree Kyomoon: interop is not the core issue, I htink its funny how interop is our biggest mandate, yet theres no one out there to interop with.
  • [9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Profit comes, you don't plan worlds to support profit. Worlds evolve, and you make profit in the environment of the day. Those who don't, fail.
  • [9:11] Rex Cronon: wow?
  • [9:12] Tree Kyomoon: the key issue is compelling people to use SL for real world business by making it practical and popular
  • [9:13] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: Opensim isn't ready for the big time yet, that's the reason for that, and nobody else wants to create a separate compatible platform because it would be chasing LL's tail lights.
  • [9:13] Chaley May: RL businesses dont care about SL because its not stable enough for their conferences
  • [9:13] Morgaine Dinova: Once we know the interop spec, sure, every man and her dog will be creating another grid.
  • [9:13] Tree Kyomoon: WOW seems to have done pretty well with their "walled garden"
  • [9:14] Morgaine Dinova: WoW isn't a world in the sense of SL.
  • [9:14] Rex Cronon: is entertainment that people go there for
  • [9:14] Chaley May: i think sim sizes need to be 4x bigger
  • [9:15] Tree Kyomoon: well you can spout off symantics all you want. but in reality, SL needs to appeal to real business and figure out why WOW didnt build thier world inside SL
  • [9:15] Morgaine Dinova: The WoW world couldn't support interop because it would destroy their game.
  • [9:15] Rex Cronon: u can't tree:(
  • [9:15] Kerry Giha: I think an economy in SL is a driving force behind its sucess. Being able to buy and make stuff and sell it is attractive. IMO it is what the Opensims really need.
  • [9:15] Tree Kyomoon: and why EA games, big online training companies, and other huge content businesses arent here
  • [9:15] Chaley May: a game cant be inside SL because the space limitation and SL is terrible for crossing into other sims
  • [9:16] Rex Cronon: sims could be any size(in theory) but sadly the existing sizes were hardwired:(
  • [9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Chaley ... we've just discussed that. The land acreage is a fiction, proposing 4X bigger is just the same fiction. Acreage is irrelevant, except in the sense that LL will collapse because of it.
  • [9:16] Chaley May: its not a fiction
  • [9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Total fiction
  • [9:16] Kerry Giha: Chaley go tell that to the RP sims :) I think they have quite a game going using the SL environment.
  • [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: until SL gets the need to attract and sustain real profit models in here, it will remain a big nerd experiment, irrelevant to 99% of the world population
  • [9:17] Chaley May: RP sims are jsut one type of game
  • [9:17] Rex Cronon: not everybody likes RP
  • [9:17] Chaley May: how many of you can imagine racing cars in SL
  • [9:17] Chaley May: i mean realisticly
  • [9:17] Kerry Giha: There are sims that do that too.
  • [9:17] Chaley May: you reach a border and your in the sea
  • [9:18] Kerry Giha: Stock car races, I been to some of thoes in SL.
  • [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: chaley that shouldnt be a problem really if you can plug and play physics engines as SL promised
  • [9:18] Squirrel Wood: racing cars would make sense if sim transitions were seamless
  • [9:18] Chaley May: i know there are sims that do that.. but they are very limited
  • [9:18] Chaley May: noone races in SL
  • [9:18] Rex Cronon: actually u can chaley if u convince the lindes to host one sim per computer:)
  • [9:18] Chaley May: racing sims are empty
  • [9:18] Morgaine Dinova: Chaley: you're confusing the SL of today and the VWs that are coming, which AWG is sort of designing towards. Just because you can't do anything highly interactive in SL today doesn't mean that it won't be possible tomorrow.
  • [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: or if you could stretch a sim and optimize it for big distances and high speeds
  • [9:19] Squirrel Wood: sim size is hardcoded afaik
  • [9:19] Chaley May: ok then.. look at the structure of games
  • [9:19] Chaley May: they will host a whole circuit on 1 server
  • [9:19] Chaley May: and the size doesnt matter
  • [9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, sim size is hardcoded. That's what'll make LL collapse ... it's a total redesign if they're to change it.
  • [9:19] Chaley May: on SL they will have to host a circuit over multiple servers
  • [9:20] Chaley May: this is inefficient
  • [9:20] Rex Cronon: chaley when u say circuit, u mean a race track?
  • [9:20] Chaley May: yes
  • [9:20] Chaley May: a full size race track like silverstone
  • [9:20] Tree Kyomoon: well depends if sim size is or its just the number of grid lines. SHould be able to put the grid lines closer together or further apart
  • [9:21] Tree Kyomoon: but that would likely mess with the avatars
  • [9:21] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's static tiling for you. Yep, it's a godawful idea and leads to all kinds of problems, not the least of which is handover. Yet, that's what they chose, and it's going to kill them.
  • [9:21] Morgaine Dinova: You can't simulate neither tiny spaces nor vast spaces in SL
  • [9:22] Tree Kyomoon: but if you could seperate the avatars from the environment it wouldnt be a problem to scale the tiles
  • [9:22] Tree Kyomoon: bigger for high speed stuff, smaller for precise stuff
  • [9:22] Chaley May: games like WOW cant be ustained in SL
  • [9:22] Squirrel Wood: in the beginning they needed a cheap solution
  • [9:22] Chaley May: sustained
  • [9:22] Squirrel Wood: and that's why we are stil stuck with it
  • [9:23] Morgaine Dinova: And that's what open sims will do no doubt. But LL can't, and won't, by choice.
  • [9:23] Chaley May: their usage of space and prims are way more efficient and far less costly
  • [9:23] Chaley May: i can make a game now in SL
  • [9:23] Rex Cronon: sadly lsl can tell when an object is selecte, and what other objects are in the selection group
  • [9:24] Tree Kyomoon: dont get me wrong, SL is an amazing achievement, but it will remain an academic study and continue gathering dust if we dont try to popularize it, and instead focus on technology for technology's sake
  • [9:24] Chaley May: They need to break SL from its limits to make it huge
  • [9:24] Rex Cronon: what sl might need is a game that is as addictive as WOW, and that will bring and keep people here
  • [9:25] Tree Kyomoon: exactly rex
  • [9:25] Morgaine Dinova: Technology is the only thing that matters Tree. Everything else just follows from it, including society and economics ;-)
  • [9:25] Tree Kyomoon: compelling pro level content
  • [9:25] Chaley May: every time i cross sims it goes through my mind am i going to crash?
  • [9:26] Rex Cronon: chaley, i haven't crashed crossing a sim in quite a while
  • [9:26] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah well Chaley, handover is an idiotic concept, welcome to Crashland ;-)
  • [9:26] Tree Kyomoon: thats your perspective Morgaine, but I think need drives innovation, not the other way arounf
  • [9:26] Chaley May: neither have i lol
  • [9:26] Chaley May: it has improved
  • [9:26] Tree Kyomoon: invention is not the mother of necessity :)_
  • [9:26] Chaley May: wait
  • [9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: nope, needs never drive innovation. Needs only drive production. Innovation comes from looking into the unknown.
  • [9:27] Chaley May: how many times do you actually cross sims anyway
  • [9:27] Chaley May: none of us like crossing sims anymore
  • [9:27] Chaley May: we will teleport
  • [9:27] Chaley May: because flying there is such a pain in the ass
  • [9:27] Chaley May: if its more than 1 sim away
  • [9:27] Rex Cronon: what i usually experience now when crossing is rubber banding
  • [9:27] Tree Kyomoon: well you can certainly say up is down and the sky is green, but in reality, all innovation is born of need. Its a fact.
  • [9:28] Chaley May: i would love to be able to get into a car and drive to a destination
  • [9:28] Chaley May: but its just not fun to do that in SL
  • [9:28] Chaley May: or fly
  • [9:28] Morgaine Dinova: You're confusing innovation with production. Einstein didn't create E=MC^2 because of need.
  • [9:28] Rim Skytower: A lot of people who look into the unknown just come back with a blacnk stare.
  • [9:28] Rex Cronon: actually chaley, u can do that but with cars that are NP(not physical)
  • [9:29] Tree Kyomoon: no im not confusing innovation with production, but you may be confusing brainstorming with inventing
  • [9:29] Chaley May: yes and anything non physical moves terribly :(
  • [9:29] Squirrel Wood: innovation happens when there is enough money to pay people to do the thinking :p
  • [9:29] Kerry Giha: Morgaine there was definately a need to understand the relationship between light, mass, and energy.
  • [9:29] Kerry Giha: It was a scientific quandry for a long time.
  • [9:30] Tree Kyomoon: I think morgaine, you cant possibly be serious
  • [9:30] Chaley May: i tell you now that if they made seamless crossing between sims then this game would go crazy
  • [9:30] Chaley May: i think avatars shouldnt be hosted on the sim
  • [9:31] Chaley May: avatars should be on their own servers
  • [9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Squirrel: it's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs again. Getting paid only fulfils low-level requirements in the pyramid, very basic needs. Invention happens way above that, same place as artistry.
  • [9:31] Tree Kyomoon: to get back to the point, if SL is a "solution" to an imaginary problem, it will fade away.
  • [9:31] Tree Kyomoon: problems always preceed invention
  • [9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Rubbish
  • [9:32] Tree Kyomoon: cite?
  • [9:32] Ina Centaur: gave you PR: AP1 SL Shakespeare Company Twelfth Night - (Short Version).
  • [9:32] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, don't need to cite, I've been in research all my life. Invention comes from interest in the unknown, nothing else.
  • [9:32] Rex Cronon: chaley, avatars in same sim kind of need to be on same server, otherwise there might be even more lag
  • [9:33] Kerry Giha: "Citation Needed" would make a good sign to have when attending political events. :)
  • [9:33] Chaley May: i dont believe so
  • [9:33] Chaley May: all a sim needs to know is the mass, size and movement of an avatar
  • [9:33] Tree Kyomoon: well I can cite since you clearly are out to lunch. Man perceives he cant fly. Man wants to fly so much it becomes need. Man invents flying machine.
  • [9:33] Chaley May: let another sever handle the rest
  • [9:34] Squirrel Wood: one cluster handles avatars, textures and such, one cluster handles physics, one cluster handles terrain.
  • [9:34] Squirrel Wood: and you have a seamless, scalable solution
  • [9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe this is part of the problem, those who aren't in research think it's done on demand, pay money, invention happens, just like writing programs. LOL, it's not like that. You can set up good research environments and powerful instruments for it with money, so yes, money helps, but that's not what actually delivers the new.
  • [9:35] Chaley May: a simulator only needs to handlt the physics of an avatar
  • [9:35] Tree Kyomoon: however, so far man has not seen a need to make an easy way to make rocks into spaghetti, so theres no research funding or invention happening there
  • [9:35] Tree Kyomoon: however, so far man has not seen a need to make an easy way to make rocks into spaghetti, so theres no research funding or invention happening there
  • [9:35] Chaley May: and then let a independant sever handle the rest of the avatar
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: They're working on rocks into spaghetti (ie. nanotech research), but Drexler didn't come up with it because there was a need. He came up with it because his mind went a-seeking out of interest.
  • [9:36] Chaley May: then the sims wont have to switch every single detail of avatars during crossing
  • [9:36] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine...do you think people set up cancer research labs before cancer was perceived to be a harmful disease in any significant way?
  • [9:36] Rim Skytower: Morgaine, that's a great point about Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. At a base level, SL is a constant threat to many individuals basic needs. And until those are addressed and met, the bottom will continue to fall out from many people who could be true innovators if given a safe environment to do so. The WWW is a good example of a platform with relatively low barrier to entry, an low cost to maintain. What people really pay with is their attention and contrbutions.
  • [9:36] Kerry Giha: Morgaine most scientific discoveries occur from long progressive research. These happen in well funded labs. The Eureka moments are popular fictions.
  • [9:37] Tree Kyomoon: long progressive research that effectively (and routinely) ends if funding runs out
  • [9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: I said money can help research by providing a powerful environment for it. But the actual inventors work to their own pace, fueled by their own interest. If the two coincide, that would be perfection, but it can't be guaranteed.
  • [9:38] Morgaine Dinova: Kerry: that's absolutely false. Most scientific discoveries stem from the opposite: because someone observed something odd in passing, and had a "WTF?" moment and pursued it.
  • [9:39] Chaley May: on opensim what are sim crossings like when crossing between sims over the internet... compared to crossing in SL between sims that are in the same building?
  • [9:39] Chaley May: ive not tried opensim
  • [9:40] Tree Kyomoon: rarely inventors are so motivated and wealthy they can fund their own research. They do it because they think they "need" to. NO one except a great fool says " i spent 100,000 and 5 years conceiving, planning, and building this radical new concrete snail on a whim, and with no real desire or need to do so"
  • [9:40] Rex Cronon: chaley, u have 2 ask a linden about that
  • [9:41] Chaley May: i am guessing it is far worse than SL
  • [9:42] Rex Cronon: u mean openspace or opensim?
  • [9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I agree there. Research into high-energy particles requires high energies, so mostly it requires very expensive machines, and hence a lot of cash promotes such research. But it's not essential. Eg. the LHC's work could also be done just by observing cosmic rays for next to nothing, but the yield would be vastly less.
  • [9:42] Kerry Giha: hahaha
  • [9:42] Chaley May: opensims as in other grids
  • [9:42] Tree Kyomoon: sure there are occasional unintended "inventions" that come along as an unintended surprise, but most inventions started with a problem someone set out to solve.
  • [9:42] Squirrel Wood: There lives a black hole next door...
  • [9:43] Kerry Giha: Exactly how are you going to "Observe" a cosmic ray and aquire data from the decay of a particle that exists in the trillionths of a sec
  • [9:43] Squirrel Wood: and quite a few americans are terrified by the result of the election. they cower in fear of their uneducatedness.
  • [9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: the exact opposite. You're talking about engineering solutions, not anything really new. You can only create on demand something for which the principles are known. That pretty much excludes doing anything new just necause there is a need.
  • [9:44] Tree Kyomoon: ignorance is so scary, we invented religion to cope with ti
  • [9:44] Rex Cronon: chaley, do a searh for "opensim" groups, the people that r in those groups, usually either have one, or have been on one
  • [9:44] Chaley May: ok :)
  • [9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Engineers regularly produce things that people consider "innovative", but that's a different use of the word. It's actually not innovative at all, just merely not seen in the market before.
  • [9:46] Tree Kyomoon: well morgaine you can continue to live alone in your pretend, academic nerdiverse while SL gets emptier and less relevant to the rest of society...and rock back and forth alone reciting "im right and everyone else is stupid" all you want. I personally want to keep SL relevant and realize its potential.
  • [9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Ignorance isn't scary in Science, it's the most wonderful that can happen --- it means that our models are wrong and we have to invent new ones.
  • [9:47] Kerry Giha: Yes, Tree, even if it means reapplying existing technology.
  • [9:47] Rim Skytower: Rex, we just wanted to drop in. We'll have to excuse ourselves as we need to prepare for a presentaion at 10 o'clock. We'll read through more of the transcripts. Cheers....
  • [9:47] Rex Cronon: have fun rim. bye:)
  • [9:48] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: who cares about SL? It's just the first step on the ladder of progress in virtual worlds. Even LL know that the current SL doesn't matter ... that's why they created AWG, to work towards the SL-NG of the future.
  • [9:48] Santanna Surya: take care ;) thanks for letting me listen in
  • [9:48] Squirrel Wood: SL does very much matter as it is where the funds for further research on LLs side come from
  • [9:48] Tree Kyomoon: has to leave the theoretical and return to reality.
  • [9:49] Rex Cronon: zero usually has an open door policy, so everybody can come:)
  • [9:49] Rex Cronon: tc tree