User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 30

[8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha, hoping Infinity can discuss an outgoing CAP for the OGP viewer at ENus' office hours tomorrow. Whump seemed to think it was a cool idea to define a generic connection point so people could start experimenting outside the official LInden team
[8:34] Zha Ewry: nods
[8:34] Zha Ewry: Whump and I touched on that last night
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
[8:34] Zha Ewry: Hmm. Signs of Infinity
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: looks outward
[8:34] Saijanai Kuhn: yep
[8:35] Zha Ewry: glances at the charming princess on the roof and laughs
[8:35] conor Kaligawa: on the roof
[8:35] Goldie Katsu: watches her float in
[8:35] Infinity Linden: hola
[8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: playing fly, er, angel on the wall
[8:35] conor Kaligawa: nice wings
[8:36] Zha Ewry: Morning Infinity
[8:36] Kerry Giha: Hello Infinity
[8:36] Imaze Rhiano: hi
[8:36] Infinity Linden: nah... i think i'm the mc this morning
[8:36] Infinity Linden: and grid monkey
[8:36] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: Morning Infinity
[8:36] Equinox Pinion: hiya
[8:36] Infinity Linden: this should be interesting
[8:36] conor Kaligawa: take a seat
[8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: ouchies
[8:36] Goldie Katsu: That's an interesting combination of tasks.
[8:36] Goldie Katsu: Interesting as in not particularly compatible.
[8:37] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Thot Grid Monkey was no longer politically correct...
[8:37] Infinity Linden: whoops
[8:37] Zha Ewry: Depends on how the grid is behaving
[8:37] Infinity Linden: er
[8:37] Infinity Linden: uh
[8:37] Infinity Linden: grid angel
[8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: grid primate
[8:37] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: take my seat infinity :)
[8:37] Infinity Linden: yeah... get here late and there's no place to sit
[8:37] Getty Watanabe: grid mammal, please
[8:37] Getty Watanabe: meow
[8:37] Zha Ewry: There you go, behind you
[8:37] Infinity Linden: okay... so...no folks with pitchforks and flags?
[8:37] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: yeah, need to have a big throne, that ejects anyone but you :P
[8:38] Gooden Uggla: just questions, i believe :)
[8:38] Goldie Katsu: I might be able to find one in inventory if I looked.
[8:38] Equinox Pinion: can borrow you a flag :)
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: well, one question: any news to report about OpenSppace?
[8:38] Rush Gastel: i gota flag
[8:38] Goldie Katsu: or could build you one, if you needed it.
[8:38] Zha Ewry: cringes
[8:38] Infinity Linden: yeah... i think i have a pitchfork somewhere
[8:38] Infinity Linden: Sai... are you joking...
[8:38] Zha Ewry: Unless its OGP or grid growth related, no please
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: if not new business
[8:38] Equinox Pinion: lol
[8:38] Infinity Linden: yeah... it's a text only meeting
[8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: thought I'd get the elephant awoken and out of the room first thing
[8:38] Zha Ewry: Inventory and asset seperatoin, and the long queue replacement?
[8:39] Caltosy Eberhardt: Sorry then, Infinity :/
[8:39] Zha Ewry: prefers to keep the elephents out of the tent
[8:39] Infinity Linden: yeah... teh elephant has left the building
[8:39] Caltosy Eberhardt: Was not aware.
[8:39] Infinity Linden: just like Elvis
[8:39] Infinity Linden: yeah... besides.. you don't want to hear me cough every three sentences
[8:39] Gooden Uggla: hope ya feel better soon
[8:39] Infinity Linden: try as i might... i caught the cough that was going around my son't school
[8:40] Infinity Linden: s/son't/son's
[8:40] Zha Ewry: sighs
[8:40] Infinity Linden: so... agenda items?
[8:40] Goldie Katsu: ok well there goes the alarm clock theories.
[8:40] Zha Ewry: Asset/Inventory seperation
[8:40] Infinity Linden: (and Sai.. if you mention open space, i'll (lovingly) kick you into the corn field)
[8:40] Zha Ewry: and.. client bound pipes
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: wheee
[8:41] Equinox Pinion: lets see how that is...open space lol
[8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: AD bound, I thought
[8:41] Zha Ewry: There is a lovely open space across the road from my RL office, complete with trees and wild turkeys
[8:41] Imaze Rhiano: that place still exists?
[8:41] Rush Gastel: how about void
[8:41] Zha Ewry: Well, in fact, w enee dto talk about it in both directions, I think
[8:41] Infinity Linden: but seriously.. the open space thing is getting discussed echelons above me
[8:42] Infinity Linden: Zha... ORLY?
[8:42] Gooden Uggla: question: with the latest news causing contraction of the grid, will there be a gross increase of decrease in user functionality?
[8:42] Gooden Uggla: or*
[8:42] Caltosy Eberhardt: The only way you want to be heard about the OS situation is put your vote in on a site.. I'm sure Linden staff have taken time to read such comments. However, contacting them about this situation will not get you anywhere. They are more busy and aware of the situation.
[8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Doubt Infinity could answer that. Does Meta still hold office hours?
[8:43] Sean Schmid: Gooden, care to reword that?
[8:43] Imaze Rhiano: let's go back to agenda, please
[8:43] Infinity Linden: yeah... there is the JIRA that everyone is supposed to vote on wrt open space
[8:43] Gooden Uggla: will things get better, lag-=wise, or worse?
[8:43] Infinity Linden: i fear there'll likely be no change in lag
[8:43] Gooden Uggla: will the grid be any more stable?
[8:44] Infinity Linden: moderately more stable though
[8:44] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: thats good news
[8:44] Infinity Linden: if we get 16 open space sims abandoned, that means a whole machine is free to be used as a spare
[8:44] Gooden Uggla: mmhmmm
[8:45] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[8:45] Infinity Linden: hola Rex
[8:45] Infinity Linden: and i thought i was late
[8:45] Zha Ewry: Invenotry / Assets, Pipes between parts
[8:45] Rush Gastel: wonders how many unsed machine your end up with
[8:45] Infinity Linden: says lovingly
[8:45] Infinity Linden: okay... inventory
[8:45] Infinity Linden: that sounds like a discussion topic
[8:45] Gooden Uggla: they've been paid for, they'll be able to afford the storage...
[8:45] Rex Cronon: hmm. could happen to anybody:)
[8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Gooden that elephant wandered off. No new news to discuss
[8:46] Kerry Giha: is interested in hearing about inventory.
[8:46] Zha Ewry: so.. right now, permisions and some other odd things hang on inventory, not the asset themelves
[8:46] Gooden Uggla: inventory question: will there be another mass return of "misplaced items" anytime soon?
[8:46] Infinity Linden: (lol.. if people knew how often i was late to how many meetings.. that mention of tardines would be humorous)
[8:46] Gwampa Macchi: Infinity can you confirm that a server is used ONLY for full prim or O/S that they are not both sharing the same machine?
[8:47] Zha Ewry: because it puts the trust boundaries in some very funny places
[8:47] Infinity Linden: hmm... not sure about that Gooden...
[8:47] Zha Ewry: (and the enforcement)
[8:47] Zha Ewry: which gets *very* tricky for real iterop, once you can have mutiple asset clouds and such
[8:47] Infinity Linden: Gwampa... not sure about that one... after the meeting i'll see who can answer that question
[8:47] Infinity Linden: @Zha... tell me about it
[8:47] Gooden Uggla: a number of friends had chims disappear, i was just windering...
[8:48] Zha Ewry: Well, it means that..
[8:48] Zha Ewry: Oh. heh.. I should take that as rhetorical?
[8:48] Infinity Linden: it does make our previous discussions of naked UUIDs more relevant
[8:48] Zha Ewry: it does indeed
[8:48] Zha Ewry: goes out to buy more http swaddling blankets for the poor nakie UUIDs
[8:48] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit giggles
[8:49] Infinity Linden: but i fear we will reinvent CORBA if we decide that all uuids must be tagged with the IP address of the machine that created them
[8:49] Saijanai Kuhn: perhaps Infinity should take one home to keep as alarm clock?
[8:49] Infinity Linden: lol
[8:49] Zha Ewry: Certainly no the IP addree
[8:49] Infinity Linden: or FQDN
[8:49] Caltosy Eberhardt: Infinity, could you explain more about CORBA and it's core use to SL?
[8:49] Zha Ewry: FQDN is better
[8:49] Zha Ewry: But..
[8:49] Zha Ewry: It does have a problem when it comes to migration
[8:49] Kerry Giha: Infinity that is a whole lot of data that is mostly not nessary
[8:50] Infinity Linden: CORBA is a technology that I worked on... that will be used on the grid when all current technical lindens are dead
[8:50] Zha Ewry: We don't use CORBA< and Infinity and I, (annd other people) look at CORBA from a lessons learned perspectice
[8:50] Zha Ewry: as in
[8:50] Infinity Linden: yup
[8:50] Zha Ewry: "DEAR GOD, don't do it like that!"
[8:50] Infinity Linden: as in... "that the hell was i thinking"
[8:50] Zha Ewry: except we're normally more vehement
[8:50] Caltosy Eberhardt: Thank you ;)
[8:50] Zha Ewry: At the same time...
[8:51] Zha Ewry: Once we are loooking at a heterogneous asset cloud...
[8:51] Zha Ewry: Some of the issues obtain
[8:51] Infinity Linden: some of the analysis of the problem of distributed computing that went into the development of CORBA is definitely relevent
[8:51] Zha Ewry: nods
[8:51] Infinity Linden: relevant(sp?)
[8:51] Oliver Szondi: hey did i miss the meeting? :D
[8:52] Zha Ewry: And.. if we don't use FQDNs.. at least in some places, what woudl we use
[8:52] Infinity Linden: and honestly... i do often wish that peeps would have punched open the IIOP ports on their firewalls
[8:52] Infinity Linden: as IIOP wasn't _that_ bad
[8:52] Oliver Szondi: lol i wonder if AVG blocks it
[8:52] Zha Ewry: So... when you look at a random asset, held in some random asset server, you've got two issues at least
[8:53] Zha Ewry: one is naming, and one is permissions
[8:53] Zha Ewry: From a REST perspective
[8:53] Infinity Linden: and there's also consistency between the inventory data and the asset data
[8:53] Zha Ewry: the seperation between inventory and asset is horriblly odd
[8:53] Zha Ewry: as in,
[8:53] Infinity Linden: don't get me started
[8:53] Zha Ewry: you need to look at the inventory to understand how to manipulate the asset
[8:53] Zha Ewry: which...
[8:53] Zha Ewry: ICK
[8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks its a GUI design issue thing
[8:54] Zha Ewry: Not in this case Saih
[8:54] Zha Ewry: this is mostly a "gettign the plumbign right"
[8:54] Zha Ewry: once we do that, we can make the gui show you what you need to see
[8:54] Caltosy Eberhardt: I have one last question that may not be related to what this discussion is based on. Would you care to listen, Infinity?
[8:54] Zha Ewry: And, the sync issue is interesting too
[8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but in this case the plumbing is doing double or triple duty
[8:55] Zha Ewry: Well, we're hoping to untangle that< I think
[8:55] Goldie Katsu: agrees at Zha
[8:55] Infinity Linden: but fortunately the consistency issue isn't too difficult
[8:55] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but I think that the current design is based on original GUI/server designs and no-one has attempted to change them because you can't unless you do it all-at-once
[8:55] Infinity Linden: it's rather akin to the situation where you have operating systems that infer type information from filename endings
[8:55] Caltosy Eberhardt: Actually, I'll hold that question for later. I have other issues to attend to.
[8:56] Caltosy Eberhardt: Do take care everyone. A pleasure to meet you finally, Infinity Linden ;)
[8:56] Infinity Linden: just make sure you don't put a .doc ending on a file that's really an xml blob
[8:56] Saijanai Kuhn: INfinity and icon choice based on that ending, and icon behavor based on that ending and...
[8:56] Infinity Linden: okay Caltosy
[8:56] Infinity Linden: cheers!
[8:56] Rex Cronon: bye caltosy
[8:56] Saijanai Kuhn: to go back to the GUI tie in ;-)
[8:57] Infinity Linden: right... you wind up with the file manager gui behaving in one way and the possibly the application that gets launched behaving a different way
[8:57] Zha Ewry: nods
[8:57] Saijanai Kuhn: or trying to
[8:57] Infinity Linden: hmm.... maybe i should have used .doc and .xls file endings
[8:57] Zha Ewry: So.. One interesting thing, is were looking at the inventory goign to RESt
[8:57] Zha Ewry: and the invenotry eventually goign to AD(s), yes?
[8:57] Infinity Linden: as MS office used to be smart enough to look into the file to see if it was a doc or a spreadsheet
[8:57] Infinity Linden: and interpret it correctly
[8:58] Oliver Szondi: MS office might be going online
[8:58] Oliver Szondi: into the cloud computer space
[8:58] Oliver Szondi: with windows 7 :D
[8:58] Infinity Linden: right... the plan is that inventory in a person's inventory will be managed by the AD
[8:59] Infinity Linden: lol... yeah... you can see ray ozzie's fingerprints all over that
[8:59] Oliver Szondi: lol
[8:59] Infinity Linden: but there's a proposal on the table to create an "inventory domain"
[8:59] Oliver Szondi: i like the mouse not the fingers
[8:59] Zha Ewry: So, if we are going to a replumb of inventory
[8:59] Zha Ewry: it probably
[8:59] Infinity Linden: so the ad can simply point to a different server
[9:00] Zha Ewry: ought to be time to think how it long termn tire sinto assets not being homogenous
[9:00] Zha Ewry: and the security and such issues
[9:00] Infinity Linden: i'm not sure i like that too much a it complicates things
[9:00] Infinity Linden: and right... AAA becomes an issue
[9:00] Getty Watanabe: /map
[9:00] Getty Watanabe: meow
[9:00] Zha Ewry: Well, end of day, it is a cap, so you can redirect it to any server you want, I don't know that it changes much
[9:00] Getty Watanabe: hi Latha
[9:00] Sean Schmid: "AAA" ?
[9:00] Infinity Linden: after we explore the heck out of the current design proposal
[9:01] Infinity Linden: we migth want to revisit
[9:01] Infinity Linden: AAA = Authentication, Authorization and Access control
[9:01] Infinity Linden: rather what people want to use OpenID, OAuth and some not especially well defined fine-grained access control system for
[9:02] Infinity Linden: @Zha.. right... it _is_ a cap, so it shouldn't be too dificult
[9:02] Infinity Linden: but I started wondering what would have to be done under the hood to get the two machines in sync
[9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: So, the cap is for the inventory management in the AD, and the AD tracks what that inventory refers to in some asset server somewhere...?
[9:03] Infinity Linden: and eventually convinced myself there was a touch more work there ...
[9:03] Zha Ewry: Oh there is
[9:03] Zha Ewry: Its easy for Zero to say, "its a cap, put the service where you want"
[9:03] Zha Ewry: the need to keep things coherent, doesn't always help
[9:03] Infinity Linden: @Sai... i would think there would be a generic service cap
[9:04] Infinity Linden: but also... since we now have a cap for every prim on the grid
[9:04] Infinity Linden: we're probably talking about a cap for every inventory item in your inventory
[9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: would the AD then be tracking what the asset is?
[9:04] Zha Ewry: winges
[9:04] Infinity Linden: absolutely
[9:04] Zha Ewry: Those caps arent' entirely free
[9:04] Zha Ewry: Including rezzed ones?
[9:04] Infinity Linden: @Zha... yup
[9:05] Zha Ewry: One of the horribly annoying things now, is that rezzed items
[9:05] Zha Ewry: aren't in your inventory
[9:05] Zha Ewry: so.. if you leave one someplace
[9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: so if the AD gets bonkered, all assets for a gevn avatar are gone forever... or until data recoverin can be done
[9:05] Zha Ewry: you really have a hard time finding it
[9:05] Infinity Linden: @Zha... yeah... that's sorta disturbed me... but it's the philosophic bent of the majority of designing lindens
[9:06] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:06] Zha Ewry: I don't quite get why you can't have a "rezzed items" folder
[9:06] Infinity Linden: i would have preferred to see a prototype based system
[9:06] Zha Ewry: which, would show you at least where you rezzed the thing
[9:06] Zha Ewry: It might be gone, but at least you'd be able to go look
[9:06] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: Completely different subject yet along the same line, is it possible to have the client store data on the fly as to what you built in the last x minutes rather then just the single undo button, then allow you to highlight what you've built, so things don't get lost?
[9:06] Infinity Linden: where the AD and the sim do a dance so they both agree that an item (that remains in someone's inventory) is known to be rezzed at a certain place
[9:07] Patnad Babii: is the AD would be grid based or will it remain LL property ?
[9:07] Sean Schmid: are any of these decisions making it to places like "Software, Experience and Practice?"
[9:07] Zha Ewry: Mutiple ADs Patnad...
[9:07] Infinity Linden: oh blergh YourA...
[9:07] Patnad Babii: yes ok of course :)
[9:07] Saijanai Kuhn: can be several AD's in theory, Pat
[9:07] Infinity Linden: that is a subject that can cause heartburn
[9:07] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: lol, alright then
[9:07] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:07] Zha Ewry: it can indeed
[9:07] Patnad Babii: are we talking of Microsoft Active Directory ?
[9:08] Patnad Babii: or agent domain
[9:08] Infinity Linden: at one time we (as a company) thought that _all_ our value was in getting peeps to build stuff with our viewer
[9:08] Infinity Linden: (as in "no externally created content")
[9:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Agent Domain. Keeps trackof your avatar login and where it is in the metaverse and what stuff you own, etc
[9:08] Patnad Babii: ok sorry for my interuption :)
[9:08] Infinity Linden: but we've sort of lightened up on this concept, but still have an infrastructure that makes it difficult for us to move away from it
[9:09] Infinity Linden: @Patnad.. lol.. yeah... i don't think we talk about active directory very much here
[9:09] Zha Ewry: Right, and it only gets worse, as you see more of the interop, and small grids in isolatoin , and such start to emerge
[9:09] Infinity Linden: @Patnad... we're specifying the AD so that anyone could re-implement one
[9:10] Infinity Linden: and in fact Tao has launched his own AD
[9:10] Zha Ewry: nods and there is some discussion ongoing about buildign one as part of the OpenSim project
[9:10] Infinity Linden: since linden pays my salary... i should also point out that running an AD (like running a CA) is more than just having a machine that does protocol
[9:10] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[9:10] Zha Ewry: A lot more
[9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: fundamental definitions and diagrams for people who aren't familiar with the terms: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Proposed_Architecture
[9:11] Infinity Linden: there's a lot of "touchey feely businessy stuff" that goes along with it
[9:11] Zha Ewry: and as it grows out, a lot of secuity and authenticatoin and RL implications as well
[9:11] Getty Watanabe: whispers: you're a beautiful dog
[9:11] Infinity Linden: so.. come visit the beautiful Linden Agent Domain... complete with enrollment opportunities and a governance and support team to keep you... etc etc
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: and possible extra features like email/IM tracking, etc
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: online checking
[9:12] Infinity Linden: right sai
[9:13] Infinity Linden: and honestly... one of the best things _we_ could do as a company would be to encourage peeps to run out and do interesting AD mashups that we could then add to our service offerings
[9:13] Infinity Linden: but
[9:13] Infinity Linden: i'm not the one who makes such decisions...
[9:13] Infinity Linden: and don't even want to pretend that i am
[9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: that goes ith the defining generic AD ,=> client connections thing
[9:14] Infinity Linden: so it's far from an official linden policy
[9:14] Kerry Giha: I agree :)
[9:14] Infinity Linden: anyway... so
[9:14] Infinity Linden: back to the discussion
[9:14] Infinity Linden: right now the way the system works is you've got inventory items that serve kinda like directory entries in a file system
[9:15] Infinity Linden: the majority of the metadata is there
[9:15] Infinity Linden: and there's a pointer to an extent number identifying where the bulk number may be found
[9:15] Zha Ewry: extent, bulk?
[9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I see it as the old Mac classic way of handing meta data vs the NeXT/MacOS X .app way.
[9:15] Zha Ewry: blinks at unusual terms
[9:16] Infinity Linden: sorry... i grew up studying file systems in the VMS world
[9:16] Zha Ewry: winges
[9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: remembers VMS fondly
[9:16] Infinity Linden: i could use mini-disks and oh... what was it... "control sectors"
[9:16] Infinity Linden: but enough with me trying to remember VM/SP
[9:17] Infinity Linden: meta-data in one place... bulk data in another
[9:17] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:17] Zha Ewry: and at the moment
[9:17] Infinity Linden: the current viewer and simulator expect both items to be behind the same firewall
[9:17] Zha Ewry: the bulk data stores, simply respond to anyone in the linden cloud who tells them to do something
[9:18] Zha Ewry: (Blind trust, based on being inside the firewall, which is fine.. but not scalable, or.. interoperable )
[9:18] Infinity Linden: right
[9:18] Infinity Linden: it's not gonna work for the future
[9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: so, this seems like a usecase for the self-encrypting caps containers thing
[9:19] Infinity Linden: yeah.. you have to be careful with those however
[9:19] Latha Serevi: Yech, Sai--
[9:19] Zha Ewry: cringes
[9:19] Goldie Katsu: was thinking what Saij said about OS9 file tagging handling.
[9:19] Infinity Linden: cause the idea is you want the sim to be able to manipulate many things as well
[9:19] Infinity Linden: and there's also the question of what does the viewer do if it encounters an item it can't decrypt?
[9:20] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:20] Infinity Linden: and then there's the key negotiation issue
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: inventory lose :D
[9:20] Zha Ewry: There is also the problem if you ever get encryption broken
[9:20] Infinity Linden: but yeah... let's think this through
[9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: was thinking more in terms of the AD and servrs talking to each other. By the time the viewer or sim gets it, its more open
[9:20] Zha Ewry: becuase like all the DVD and similar schemes, once you do, its game over
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: so you have a backup encryption
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: or mutiple ones
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: so if one goes down
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: you have others to keep on
[9:20] Infinity Linden: the viewer has to be able to get a list of inventory items so it can populate the inventory floater
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: until you find a way of making them work better
[9:21] Latha Serevi: Don't we want to see an asset server that has metadata for data type, ownership and permissions/caps, so it can correctly act on asset requests more directly?
[9:21] Infinity Linden: we're thinking that in our restful future, inventory items (including folders) will be accessed through caps
[9:21] Zha Ewry: I think we do Latah, but that causes a new set of interesting issues
[9:21] Latha Serevi: F'rinstance, full perms objects don't need a capability at all?
[9:22] Zha Ewry: In particault, you don't really want to have to enumerate the assets on all the assetservers to populate your inventory floater
[9:22] Infinity Linden: on the sim yes, latha
[9:22] Zha Ewry: winces aty scale issues
[9:22] Infinity Linden: but in inventory...
[9:22] Infinity Linden: hold on
[9:22] Oliver Szondi: ackk
[9:22] Rush Gastel: eeekkk
[9:22] Oliver Szondi: G-TEAM
[9:22] Oliver Szondi: shouts: dont kill the cat!
[9:22] Rush Gastel: someones trying to assinate infinity
[9:23] Getty Watanabe: /mao
[9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: look its a street theatre tropp of one
[9:23] Getty Watanabe: meow
[9:23] Zha Ewry: Noisy for a mime
[9:23] Oliver Szondi: lol you have fans?
[9:23] Sean Schmid: Ah, my adoring fans followed me.
[9:23] Infinity Linden: yeah.. seemed like it was aimet at Sean
[9:23] Imaze Rhiano: where we were?
[9:23] Sliagas Aristocrat: hey guys
[9:23] conor Kaligawa: o..k
[9:23] Latha Serevi: Inventory becomes more of an informational list of pointers, right, to make the AD's and viewer's life easier?
[9:23] Sliagas Aristocrat: may i see some ID please?
[9:23] Getty Watanabe: look, take my wallet
[9:23] Scarllet Galicia: yes
[9:24] Gooden Uggla: with regards to a future metaverse, which system will be most reliable and secure?
[9:24] conor Kaligawa: discussion going on here guys
[9:24] Latha Serevi: Grownups are talking, Sliagas.
[9:24] Rush Gastel: no bugger off
[9:24] Sliagas Aristocrat: please maddam may i see some ID?
[9:24] conor Kaligawa: have some manners
[9:24] Patnad Babii: here's a linden go play in traffic
[9:24] Infinity Linden: sliga.. please...
[9:24] Infinity Linden: we're trying to have a meeting
[9:24] Oliver Szondi: Sligas please this is a meeting
[9:24] Sliagas Aristocrat: thanks
[9:24] Rush Gastel: .•••"00"•••..LMAO!!.•••"00"•••..
[9:25] Infinity Linden: so anyway
[9:25] Infinity Linden: you've got the inventory
[9:25] Rush Gastel: laughs at the trapped noob
[9:25] Latha Serevi: We want to eventually work out a way that a sane set of requests w/capabilities zoom back and forth, right?
[9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: always wonders at people who attempt to grief technical Lindens
[9:25] Infinity Linden: and accesses it through a cap
[9:25] conor Kaligawa: sligas go play somewhere else ... find a nice soft play area
[9:25] Sliagas Aristocrat: what just happened?
[9:25] Infinity Linden: thx
[9:25] Zha Ewry: So.. we do, roughl, Latha, and we want to allow
[9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Sliagas you were bothering one of the SL game masters
[9:26] Zha Ewry: ffor multiple sets of iventory
[9:26] Zha Ewry: which are not always accessable
[9:26] Infinity Linden: and the caps are likely to have a lifetime and all that
[9:26] Gooden Uggla: griefing office hours is particularly intelligent *eye roll*
[9:26] conor Kaligawa: can i swear?
[9:26] Zha Ewry: as you hop from sim to sim across the greater gird
[9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: hint: anyone with a last name of Linden? Don't bother them
[9:26] Rush Gastel: "Hahahaha!"
[9:26] Rush Gastel: "Thats funny"
[9:26] Infinity Linden: yeah... some day i'll tell you about the guy who kept taunting me at help island
[9:26] Oliver Szondi: ouch
[9:26] Oliver Szondi: :D
[9:27] Infinity Linden: so it might be important to think of inventory in the AD as not having a fixed cap
[9:27] Infinity Linden: just a cap for manipulation
[9:27] Infinity Linden: or at least that's my idea
[9:27] Zha Ewry: also.. I think, you want to think of is a a deeper tree
[9:27] Zha Ewry: Very much so, I hope Infinity
[9:27] Gooden Uggla: the cap would float upward as assets accumulate?
[9:27] Zha Ewry: so that you don't always need to load it all from one place, or at once
[9:28] Infinity Linden: @Zha.. right
[9:28] Infinity Linden: so we would have a cap that exposes an inventory search service
[9:28] Zha Ewry: (Singletons, are almost always bad news in interop terms)
[9:28] Infinity Linden: you could search by name or search by location in the inventory hierarcy
[9:28] Infinity Linden: and you would get a list of names
[9:29] Kerry Giha: So then what happens to the Inventory Item I rez inworld that is no copy and thus no longer in my inventory? Does that just get transfered to the sim kinda like it does now?
[9:29] Infinity Linden: finally you would ask for the cap for a particular name
[9:29] Infinity Linden: and then use the name to manipulate the metadata
[9:29] Infinity Linden: er
[9:29] Infinity Linden: use the cap that you got by querying the cap for the name
[9:30] Infinity Linden: @Kerry... i think we're thinking that'll still happen
[9:30] Latha Serevi: @Inf - this is all the interaction with an AD, right, except perhaps the last part where it may be on the asset server?
[9:30] Infinity Linden: but obviously when you're moving inventory across administrative domains
[9:30] Infinity Linden: it can get dicey
[9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: reall, just a marker gets transfered, right?
[9:31] Infinity Linden: a couple years ago, i proposed using some of the chaum digital cash IP
[9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: or does the old asset server forget about that item?
[9:31] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:31] Zha Ewry: That is one of the harder questoins
[9:31] Infinity Linden: so there would be a very clear trail for where the inventory item is supposed to live
[9:31] Zha Ewry: Well, saij
[9:31] Zha Ewry: when you rez, and then take back an item
[9:32] Zha Ewry: its a new item, from the inventory perspetive, I think
[9:32] Infinity Linden: well.. yes and no
[9:32] Infinity Linden: there are vestages of code (some of which i recently fixed) in the system
[9:32] Infinity Linden: that allow a rezzed item to know what was it's most recently container
[9:33] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:33] Infinity Linden: back in the old day when "save item to inventory" and "save item to object contents"
[9:33] Infinity Linden: worked
[9:33] Zha Ewry: which is why they sometimes go back there when you pick itu p
[9:33] Infinity Linden: that's what they used
[9:33] Latha Serevi: There's some stuff in the current scheme that we want to throw out; "no copy" handling via shipping-and-deletion of bits may be one?
[9:33] Rex Cronon: can a script access that info?
[9:33] Infinity Linden: the idea was that we wanted the item to go back to the folder it came from
[9:33] Infinity Linden: hmm.. i don't think so rex
[9:33] Rex Cronon: than, too bad
[9:34] Infinity Linden: but yeah... one day Don Linden and myself got cheezed off that some of this stuff didn't work... and fixed it
[9:34] Infinity Linden: but sadly... it's still in the integration queue
[9:34] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:35] Zha Ewry: Its also painfully messy, to sort out where thinsg get "taken" to if you have mutiple asset servers and domains
[9:35] Infinity Linden: if anyone thinks it's important... you could show up at bridie linden's office hours and give it a vote, btw
[9:35] Oliver Szondi: :D
[9:35] Infinity Linden: right
[9:35] Infinity Linden: or where to return your item to
[9:35] Infinity Linden: if auto-return is turned on
[9:35] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:35] Zha Ewry: Yeps
[9:35] Zha Ewry: mutters horrible things about items being autorreturned when a sim no longer can see the asset server
[9:36] Infinity Linden: so yeah... there might be some benefit to having the item (when rezzed) know where the last place it lived was
[9:36] Infinity Linden: including the name of item that contained it as well as the address of the server
[9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: metadata about metadata
[9:36] Infinity Linden: or
[9:36] Zha Ewry: sighs FQDN lurking
[9:36] Infinity Linden: if we want to have a global registry of UUID -> item mappings
[9:36] Infinity Linden: we could just use the UUID
[9:37] Oliver Szondi: i just wanted to say
[9:37] Zha Ewry: Global mappings - don't exactly scale
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Morgaine Cloud
[9:37] Latha Serevi: In our new world, when do changes to an object within a region ever get plunked back to an asset server, and by whom, I wonder?
[9:37] Infinity Linden: and put the UUID -> FQDN / item name smarts in the regustry
[9:37] Oliver Szondi: i hope Zero is oki
[9:37] Infinity Linden: @Latha...
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: waves
[9:37] Zha Ewry: They only get plunked on take, at the moment, Latha, I believe, the local changes just go to the simstate
[9:37] Infinity Linden: once an item's in the simulator.. it's more or less divrced from the inventory
[9:38] Infinity Linden: 'cept for the mechanism i just discused
[9:38] Infinity Linden: well.. that's how it works now..
[9:38] Latha Serevi: inventory!=asset in the future world. perhaps the "plunking" always happens indirectly via the AD? Hrm.
[9:38] Infinity Linden: obviously we'll give considerably more support to an OGP solution that's conceptually similar
[9:39] Zha Ewry: well, you really, have to keep the SIM in charged of rezzed assets
[9:39] Infinity Linden: @Latha... yeah... i like that idea as long as both the sim and the AD are in violent agreement for where the item is
[9:39] Zha Ewry: The pain in any other scheme, is pretty honking awful
[9:39] Zha Ewry: and, totally, Latah and Infinity
[9:39] Zha Ewry: If they can't agree, the world is goign to be badly broken
[9:39] Infinity Linden: right... you dont want to have to have the sim keep updating the AD when it's changed
[9:40] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:40] Zha Ewry: especially during building, and editing
[9:40] Latha Serevi: (sorry for introducing a new and meaningess verb, despite its lovely sound. "plunk". "plunk".)
[9:40] Zha Ewry: plunks Latha gently on the head and then scrichtes between the ears
[9:40] Infinity Linden: but.. the inventory items really are just meta-data and pointers
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: a plunkit is a traditional jub band instrument, you know
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: aka awshtub bass
[9:41] Infinity Linden: so it could be that an item remains in the agent's inventory on the AD
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: jug* band
[9:41] Infinity Linden: with all it's metadata gone but for a pointer to the last sim the ad thought the item was rezzed on
[9:41] Infinity Linden: and "thunking" .. i always liked the term "thunk"
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: is that a technical term though?
[9:42] Infinity Linden: as in... "who would thunk it?" and "the 286 didn't have a real memory model, so we reverte to thunking"
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: strictly speaking, the sim only needs to be in total control of new object "publication", so to speak. Ie. the rezzer and the AD can freely decide that an object gets instantiated, but until the sim melds it into its public state, nobody else gets even a sniff of it.
[9:42] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:42] Kerry Giha: hehe
[9:42] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine... yup
[9:42] Zha Ewry: that's the public exposure, Morgaine, but.. what you don't want, is the notion that the sim and the AD or Asset servers ever have to sync every updaste
[9:43] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed
[9:43] Morgaine Dinova: That wouldn't scale anyway
[9:43] Zha Ewry: And.. you *do* want everyone on the sim to see the intermediate states
[9:43] Infinity Linden: right
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Being able to collaborate on editing, building, and workign a gui built in the 3d parts needs that
[9:44] Latha Serevi: This all seems fairly interesting/important/tricky, especially given that the current setup doesn't move well to interop.
[9:44] Zha Ewry: which eventusally leads to the whole painful "how do we manage the many UUIDs currently created as obejcts change" discussion
[9:44] Infinity Linden: and you probably just need to trust that the sim will not "do bad things" to the item metadata under it's control
[9:44] Zha Ewry: but. we're what, 15 minutes past time, now?
[9:44] Latha Serevi: I'd like the sim to always have a place to "put away" a rezzed/modified object; a capability to save it under agent xyz's name?
[9:44] Infinity Linden: yup.
[9:44] Morgaine Dinova: It would be good to start thinking about interop and how it works with objects. About time, after a year of AWG ;-)
[9:45] Infinity Linden: yup... maybe some written proposals sent out to the mailing list
[9:45] Infinity Linden: followed by discussion
[9:45] Infinity Linden: followed by a wiki page?
[9:45] Infinity Linden: followed by a mockup of the implementation so we can see how it really works?
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Well really it was kind of dependent on getting the REST nouns out and agreed.
[9:46] Infinity Linden: yup
[9:46] Patnad Babii: i was thinking there should be also in place some sort of global ban mechanism that would bloc certain IP (grieffers) from accessing the whole metagrid as well
[9:46] Infinity Linden: we should do that first
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: points to index for wiki pages: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages
[9:46] Infinity Linden: eek.. yup. totally forgot about banning and blacklisting
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Someone give Zha an extra 12 hours per day ;-))))
[9:46] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Bans are especially a hot pototo
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Which had a discussion a few months back
[9:47] Zha Ewry: and the pain points were fascinating
[9:47] Infinity Linden: i thought that's why it's called "second life" cause it gives you an extra 24 hours in the day???
[9:47] Rex Cronon: i don't think is right to block by ip, some people might be using public places, like an internet cafe
[9:47] Zha Ewry: No, it consumes an extra 24 Infinity
[9:47] Imaze Rhiano: IP is not usefull for banning
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: Bans are policy, not mechanism. Pass it to someone else, unless there's a mechanism issue to be discussed.
[9:47] Infinity Linden: good think i have 36 hours in my day
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: SL giveth and SL taketh away...
[9:47] Patnad Babii: no well MAC blocking then
[9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: ban 0 0 0 0 0
[9:48] Infinity Linden: right... banning IP is not especially elegant
[9:48] Patnad Babii: o.O
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Sometimes needed, but hardly elegent
[9:48] Infinity Linden: yup... oh... i guess it's public knowledge that we ban by mac address
[9:48] conor Kaligawa: tollerance is sometimes a better approach than banning
[9:49] Infinity Linden: oh yeah... it was in a previous version of the OGP spec
[9:49] Oliver Szondi: NODS :d
[9:49] Oliver Szondi: :D
[9:49] Infinity Linden: and anyone who's looked at the protocol would have noticed it
[9:49] Zha Ewry: nods
[9:49] Getty Watanabe: /mao
[9:49] Sean Schmid: by all --- griefer in private sandbox.
[9:49] Zha Ewry: which of course, just leads to MAC spoofing, but. heh.
[9:49] Oliver Szondi: i have herd the ticket sytem is run on an opensorce bit of software
[9:49] Infinity Linden: yeah... for what its worth... now that some drafts of OGP are out in public
[9:49] Infinity Linden: more peeps internally have been reviewing them
[9:49] Rex Cronon: bye sean
[9:50] Infinity Linden: and we're getting a lot more feedback re: support issues
[9:50] lyndell Aleixandre: am i too late?
[9:50] Infinity Linden: and krunk
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Depends what you are late or early for ;_)
[9:50] Latha Serevi: Just heading out the door, yep lyndell
[9:50] Infinity Linden: i've got to run along
[9:50] Infinity Linden: and i promised YourA
[9:50] lyndell Aleixandre: bugger :|
[9:50] Infinity Linden: i would chat briefly about the open space issue
[9:50] Oliver Szondi: Oki infiity
[9:50] Kerry Giha: Alright, Thanks for the Office Hour Infinity
[9:50] Oliver Szondi: Tc and Thanks
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Really good discussion, folks
[9:50] Infinity Linden: absolutely
[9:50] Infinity Linden: thanks everyone for showing up!
[9:51] conor Kaligawa: tc Infinity
[9:51] Oliver Szondi: Hope you enjoy the rest of your sl day
[9:51] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[9:51] Oliver Szondi: :D
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Saij, you postying transcript?
[9:51] Infinity Linden: okay... anyone who wants to have a brief chat about open space...
[9:51] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: thank you infinity
[9:51] Infinity Linden: stick around
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: is still recording session for OpenSape issue unless that's off the record...
[9:51] Morgaine Dinova: I got caught out by the change to winter hours, buh
[9:51] Infinity Linden: YourA...
[9:51] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: *nods*
[9:51] Infinity Linden: you had some questions, right?
[9:51] Oliver Szondi: Some did
[9:51] Infinity Linden: nah... not off the record
[9:51] Oliver Szondi: i have seen people protesting about opensims when they them selfs have been abusing the sims
[9:51] Patnad Babii: i think most of the questions will be answered by Jack's meeting hours..
[9:52] Patnad Babii: in about 1 hour
[9:52] Infinity Linden: but i warn everyone that i totally don't give the official line
[9:52] Oliver Szondi: its not good to see Help island
[9:52] Patnad Babii: 4 sim wide
[9:52] Imaze Rhiano: open space != opensim
[9:52] Infinity Linden: the official line comes from Jack, M, Philip
[9:52] Oliver Szondi: with tons of people just protesting
[9:52] Infinity Linden: those folks
[9:52] Infinity Linden: @Imaze.. yup
[9:52] Infinity Linden: it was a touch confusing on tuesday when everyone was yelling about open sim
[9:52] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: yes, I've been trying to understand where the problem originates from, from my undersatnding, there are no extra prims, so its something with the way the open space sims are connecting with client or asset servers
[9:52] Oliver Szondi: tons of flags i know what the sims were used for and i stick by them rules
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: The word "open" is so dreadfully overloaded, lol
[9:52] Oliver Szondi: tons of comments on the forums
[9:53] Oliver Szondi: should be "the sim that looks good but shouldnt be abused" space
[9:53] Infinity Linden: unfortunately... i'm probably not the one to talk about how the open sims connect
[9:53] conor Kaligawa: Oliver thats a very delicate issue . best discussed in the appropriate place and time
[9:53] Oliver Szondi: sorry conor
[9:53] Infinity Linden: my understanding is that they're like regular sims, but with a much lower prim limit
[9:53] Oliver Szondi: infinity they have 4 to a server
[9:53] Infinity Linden: and instead of putting one per core, we have 4
[9:54] Oliver Szondi: :D
[9:54] Infinity Linden: jinkx
[9:54] lyndell Aleixandre: i understand allot of those in the lab are quite divided about this issue
[9:54] conor Kaligawa: especially to make judgement on who is , or isnt abusing land
[9:54] Infinity Linden: mmm... i wouldn't say we're divided
[9:54] Oliver Szondi: conor please see the blog it has coverage of the issye ;)
[9:54] Infinity Linden: it might be more appropriate to say.. there's been a lot of discussion about it internally as well as externally
[9:54] conor Kaligawa: its more the residents who are divided over this issue
[9:54] Oliver Szondi: if there is one
[9:54] Infinity Linden: sadly.. people don't get to see what's going on internally
[9:55] lyndell Aleixandre: no not many anyways
[9:55] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: I'm wondering how is it possible to abuse the land from the technical stand point, because you can't do more then 1 full sim across 4 open sims unless they are all sending data to the asset servers individually, not 4 sims as one connection
[9:55] Infinity Linden: but there has been a LOT of discussion of the things residents have brought up in the last couple of days
[9:55] Oliver Szondi: conor i wish to sday sorry about saying that
[9:55] Infinity Linden: hmm... "abuse" is a touchey word with some folk... maybe "misuse" is the more appropriate one
[9:55] Morgaine Dinova: Well, serves you right for making sims non-scalable. As Zero explained, it's a policy decision. You suffer from that choice --- would have been far better to aim for scalable sims, like we discussed in the first few months of AWG.
[9:56] Oliver Szondi: i know of help people was using opensims it took us 4 months to get them up right
[9:56] conor Kaligawa: appology accepted . i just think its been a headache for everyone
[9:56] Infinity Linden: but... essentially... when you have a lot of scripted physical prims in a region, it taxes it's CPU resources
[9:56] Oliver Szondi: but still it never opened due to the prices
[9:56] Oliver Szondi: so we all have been effected
[9:56] Oliver Szondi: i had to move out my sl home cos of it
[9:57] Oliver Szondi: i have friends whos moving out of land its just somthing i have to brush off
[9:57] Infinity Linden: btw... scalable sims are not completely out of the question
[9:57] lyndell Aleixandre: hmmm there is more amiss here than just the prices .. but im not going to discuss that here
[9:57] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: so its really an issue of 4 sims lagging out at once because of one bad one, not a total network problem?
[9:57] Infinity Linden: @YourA... mostly
[9:57] Infinity Linden: probably about 90% of it
[9:57] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: from what I gathered from the first blog post, and I know, your not to do with that, but he made it sound like it was a traffic issue, not a server problem
[9:58] conor Kaligawa: my open sim is my home , running at 1/3 of its maximum capacity primwise .. i'll be affected by the price rise . and most likely lose my land
[9:58] Infinity Linden: our networking infrastructure was designed for 4 sims per cpu
[9:58] Infinity Linden: @conor.. i understand
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: they were out of the question 6+ months ago when we discussed it. Just a conscious choice. But I'd love it if internally policy was changing on that :-))))
[9:58] Oliver Szondi: they are changing the internal network
[9:58] Infinity Linden: thre's a suggestion that we lower prim limits, not raise prices
[9:58] Oliver Szondi: to try and get LLNetwork online by next year i belive
[9:58] Oliver Szondi: maybe it might speed things up
[9:58] Infinity Linden: Jack is probably the one to talk to if you think that's a better solution
[9:59] Infinity Linden: @Oliver... actually... we're always upgrading our network
[9:59] Oliver Szondi: tada!
[9:59] Infinity Linden: and our cloud of servers
[9:59] lyndell Aleixandre: jacks an asshole tho lol
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[9:59] Oliver Szondi: :(
[9:59] Infinity Linden: @Lyndell... please... keep it clean
[9:59] lyndell Aleixandre: sorry
[9:59] lyndell Aleixandre: gestures
[9:59] Zha Ewry: glances at the RL clock, and gets ready to head out
[9:59] Infinity Linden: yeah... i gotta get going too
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: the new network will be able to get more traffic infinity?
[10:00] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: one thing about physics and scripts, and I don't know if this was removed with havok upgrade, but the sim used to shut itself down as things got heavy, the dil rate dropped below .65 and the scripts started pausing, so as to keep the cpu down
[10:00] Infinity Linden: i've got to check in with grid angel central
[10:00] conor Kaligawa: think its fair to say there is no love lost between Lyndell and Jack
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: infinity
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: when you can
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: please update me on the network upgrades
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: im interested :D
[10:00] Infinity Linden: mmmm... don't think that's still how it works
[10:00] Diana Held: sorry about that he tp'd me in there lol
[10:00] Oliver Szondi: loves network upgrades :D
[10:00] Kerry Giha: hehe if Infinity doesn't check in they will send someone around to look for her.
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: It's not a network problem, it's a sim software design problem. The right algorithm trumps more hardware every time.
[10:01] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: thank you very much for your time infinity, I really do appreciate
[10:01] Infinity Linden: however... there are certain types of failure we see on machines that have 4 cores that are maxxed out
[10:01] Patnad Babii: if you want to know about openspace sim more get there at 11am: [1] <--- New location of Jack's office hours!
[10:01] conor Kaligawa: maybe they'll send jack , and we can lych him :p
[10:01] Infinity Linden: but it's more of a "the program can't schedule all the things it needs to do" kind of thing
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
[10:01] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: ah, that explains alot
[10:01] Infinity Linden: thx Patnad
[10:01] Infinity Linden: saves me from having to look it up
[10:01] Patnad Babii: 4 sim wide office hours
[10:02] Infinity Linden: yeah... i'm thinking with as many people who are passionate about this issue
[10:02] Infinity Linden: it'll be interesting to see if they can all get into Jack's meeting
[10:02] Oliver Szondi: :D
[10:02] lyndell Aleixandre: LOL
[10:02] Infinity Linden: okay... i've got to run
[10:02] Oliver Szondi: Broadcast it
[10:02] Kerry Giha: Thanks Infinity
[10:02] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: lol, seeing your transcript last week, it won't matter
[10:03] Infinity Linden: sorry if i couldn't answer all of your questions
[10:03] Infinity Linden: but
[10:03] Patnad Babii: have a good day INfinity
[10:03] Infinity Linden: you're always welcome to find me on the grid or send me an email
[10:03] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: no, I completely understand and thank you for answering what you did
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Well I *was* passionate about scalable sims. But you can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink. ;-)))
[10:03] Infinity Linden: cheers!
[10:03] Saijanai KuhnrA: Misfit: thank you Infinity

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 30

Navigation menu

Search