User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-11-19

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User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 19, 2009.

Topic: Future Topic Brainstorming.


We brainstormed topics for future UXIG discussions:

  • Reducing perceived lag (especially avatar movement).
  • Meet on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop/cross-grid issues.
  • What OpenSim creators want in a viewer.
  • Reducing UI presence to improve immersion.
  • "Beyond SL": in what ways would viewers evolve if they weren't tied to SL?
  • Integration with external services (Twitter, Flickr, online marketplaces, llPizza, etc.).
  • Improving usability of online marketplaces, integrating them in the viewer.
  • Reducing the viewer's footprint / improving performance and usability on lower-end hardware.
  • Bugs / issues that affect a specific use case or demographic (builders, clothing creators, animators, models, shoppers, etc.).
  • Hands-on interface discussion for third-party viewers


[15:11] Jacek Antonelli: We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today, so if either of you have any ideas, go ahead :)
[15:11] Geneko Nemeth: I've got none.
[15:11] Geneko Nemeth: Well, almost none.
[15:11] Hal Klaxon: I have one.
[15:12] Geneko Nemeth: Go ahead.
[15:12] Geneko Nemeth: Don't have it yet? I'll go then.
[15:12] Hal Klaxon: back to the conversation on the SLUX mailing lsit about laggy movement.
[15:13] Geneko Nemeth: Yeah. The client doesn't predict movement, it just takes what server gives it and trys to smooth it.
[15:13] McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:13] Hal Klaxon: I'm sure there's a way to improve it by chaning the way the viewer works, but I'm not sure what.
[15:13] Jacek Antonelli: Ahoy McCabe
[15:13] Hal Klaxon: /changing/
[15:13] Geneko Nemeth: Prediction routines inside the network layer.
[15:13] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Morgaine
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Jacek :-)
[15:13] Hal Klaxon: hello
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hi all
[15:14] Jacek Antonelli: We're brainstorming topics for future meetings today
[15:14] Hal Klaxon: If I hold down the W key for T seconds, I should move S*T meters forward.
[15:14] Hal Klaxon: barring obsticals.
[15:15] Hal Klaxon: (S is speed)
[15:15] Geneko Nemeth: ...
[15:15] Hal Klaxon: I'm looking for a nice way to state it as a bug.
[15:16] Geneko Nemeth: Well, I think it is a feature...
[15:17] Hal Klaxon: Does anyone know what's really happening when your walkign speed slws down?
[15:17] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. The viewer could assume that you start moving forward immediately, but it would be hard to sync that up with the server. There would probably be a lot of "rubber banding" (bouncing back to where the sim says you really are)
[15:17] Geneko Nemeth: The server sends an object update packet for your avatar with a slower velocity.
[15:17] Hal Klaxon: But why is your velocity slower?
[15:18] Hal Klaxon: Becasue information got lost about your keystrokes?
[15:18] Jacek Antonelli: How do you mean, when you slow down?
[15:18] Geneko Nemeth: Because you bumped into something?
[15:18] Hal Klaxon: no obsticals. a flat floor.
[15:18] Geneko Nemeth: Because an object is execreting a force over you?
[15:18] Geneko Nemeth: Uphills?
[15:18] Garn Conover: ooga boog
[15:18] Garn Conover: a
[15:18] Hal Klaxon: lots of avatrs nearby, but not in your way.
[15:18] Morgaine Dinova: For the topic brainstorm ... a sort of meta-topic: "Hold a meeting in OSgrid, as a prompt for ideas about interop and about grid cross-over issues."
[15:19] Geneko Nemeth: Just give one second of tweening between what we think is the right position and the server's position then. Nobody will notice!
[15:19] Jacek Antonelli: Sometimes the time dilation on the sim drops when there're too much physics stuff going on
[15:19] Geneko Nemeth: And what OpenSim devs want to see in viewers!
[15:19] Jacek Antonelli: In which case all movement slows down on the sim
[15:19] Geneko Nemeth: Yeah, in that way the avatar rubber-bands, don't want to see that.
[15:19] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Garn
[15:20] Garn Conover woofs
[15:20] Hal Klaxon: when rubberbanding happens, can't the viewer keep moving you towards where it knows you WANT to be?
[15:20] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway. We could make that a topic for a future meeting, if you'd like? "Ways to reduce perceived lag", or something like that
[15:20] Geneko Nemeth: That would be further away to the truth..
[15:20] Geneko Nemeth: Preceived performance is important.
[15:21] Jacek Antonelli earskritches Garn. Hi there
[15:21] Hal Klaxon: exactly!
[15:21] Geneko Nemeth: Firefox developers apprantly think it's more important than real performance..
[15:21] Garn Conover tilts head and thumps foot softly
[15:22] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. And Morgaine suggested we have a meeting on OSGrid to inspire discussion about interop issues.
[15:22] Geneko Nemeth: Anyway as I was'nt saying for the UXIG we could do stuff the UX lindens would do.
[15:22] Geneko Nemeth: ...
[15:22] Geneko Nemeth: Alright.
[15:22] Garn Conover: heya Tech
[15:22] Jacek Antonelli: Go ahead, gen
[15:22] Geneko Nemeth: Do stuff like discussing mockups for Imprudence.
[15:22] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi garn
[15:22] Hal Klaxon: Waht is Imprudence?
[15:23] Techwolf Lupindo: Third pary viewers
[15:23] Geneko Nemeth: New features and featurettes.
[15:23] Techwolf Lupindo: party
[15:23] Geneko Nemeth: Not just any third party viewer!
[15:23] Techwolf Lupindo: I got Imprudence to work in my overaly for gentoo users.
[15:23] Geneko Nemeth looks at Jacek's general direction.
[15:23] McCabe Maxsted: hax
[15:23] Morgaine Dinova refreshes Tech's overlay
[15:23] Techwolf Lupindo: But be forwarn, it based on 1.22.11 code, not 1.23.5.
[15:24] Geneko Nemeth: Although that would probably change in two months...
[15:24] Morgaine Dinova: Tech: that's a *good* think is some cases. It's made Imprudence very stable in Opensim!
[15:24] Morgaine Dinova: thing*
[15:24] Jacek Antonelli: I'm intentionally trying to keep UXIG from turning into "Imprudence Favoritism Hour", but we could have discussions about potential UI mockups for viewers in general
[15:25] Geneko Nemeth: I don't see why it couldn't be "Imprudence Favoritism Hour" as long as the things discussed can be merged into other viewers as well.
[15:26] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe once in a while. What are some other topic ideas?
[15:27] Geneko Nemeth: Maybe more than once in a while.
[15:27] Geneko Nemeth: Twice in a while?
[15:27] Jacek Antonelli: Take a look at the past meetings for inspiration, maybe:
[15:27] Geneko Nemeth: Let the meetings have some actual work produced from it... even if just a little.
[15:27] Geneko Nemeth: How about an art jam?
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: I think that's a really impressive transcripts list.
[15:28] Jacek Antonelli: We could have discussions like the machinima ones, but for other aspects -- building, clothing design, animation, etc. Invite some representatives and talk about bugs and issues that affect them
[15:28] Geneko Nemeth: It's been one year! Woot!
[15:28] Jacek Antonelli: It has!
[15:28] Garn Conover: getting 1.2 silly rss didn't notify me
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: Happy Birthday, UXIG!
[15:29] Geneko Nemeth: Wahoo!
[15:29] Jacek Antonelli: Garn: We haven't blogged about it yet
[15:30] Geneko Nemeth: ... and in the other direction maybe Imprudence could favour UXIG. Like, post some notices on the front page or something.
[15:31] Jacek Antonelli: What are some other topics?
[15:31] Jacek Antonelli: Anything in the UI bugging you lately? Anything you wish it could do?
[15:32] Hal Klaxon: true fullscreen.
[15:32] Hal Klaxon: get rid of the menu bar and everything.
[15:32] Geneko Nemeth has one of those bugs swatted... but there are still lots. Not to mention he's also bugged in real life by blood-sucking bugs.
[15:33] Geneko Nemeth: More immersive experience... Yeah.
[15:33] Hal Klaxon: do you know how to do fullscreen in Gnome?
[15:33] Geneko Nemeth: Alt+Enter?
[15:33] Jacek Antonelli: wb Garn
[15:33] Garn Conover: still popups :(
[15:33] Jacek Antonelli: Aw
[15:34] Hal Klaxon: It's the /apps/metacity/window_keybindings/toggle_fullscreen keybinding.
[15:34] Garn Conover: so whats new on here *sniffs*
[15:34] Hal Klaxon: here?
[15:35] Geneko Nemeth has never smelled more catty before.
[15:35] Geneko Nemeth: How about revisiting some of the earlier topics?
[15:35] Jacek Antonelli: Any in particular that look interesting to revisit?
[15:36] Geneko Nemeth: Not much. Sigh.
[15:36] Garn Conover: on 1.2
[15:36] Geneko Nemeth: I'm thinking about stuff that have been improved like minimap and radar.
[15:37] Geneko Nemeth: Or things that when revisited could give a bit of different perspective...
[15:37] Jacek Antonelli: Right
[15:37] Morgaine Dinova: "Beyond SL" would be an interesting topic. Ie. cutting the bond with LL on viewers, and evolving viewers independently.
[15:38] Jacek Antonelli: Interesting
[15:38] Garn Conover: booo the minimap arrow is yellow lol
[15:39] Garn Conover: i haz a skelly in this guy now lol
[15:39] Geneko Nemeth: Baww... I'm hungry.
[15:39] Geneko Nemeth: Maybe llGetPizza();?
[15:39] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[15:39] Geneko Nemeth:
[15:40] Morgaine Dinova: McCabe's fallen asleep. I'm about to as well
[15:40] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm... so about llPizza()... intergration with outside the metaverse could be a topic?
[15:40] Garn Conover facewashes
[15:40] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[15:40] Geneko Nemeth: What are you doing Garn Mweh Mweh! :O
[15:40] Morgaine Dinova: lol Garn, ew
[15:40] Garn Conover: tryin to wale him up!
[15:41] Techwolf Lupindo lol
[15:41] McCabe Maxsted: actually gotta run
[15:41] Morgaine Dinova: Cya McCabe, tc :-)
[15:41] Jacek Antonelli: Take care McCabe
[15:41] Garn Conover: cya McCabe
[15:41] McCabe Maxsted calls llGetRL()
[15:41] Garn Conover: lol
[15:41] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, integration outside SL... that could be stuff like Twitter and Flickr as well
[15:42] Geneko Nemeth: And SLX? (Of course, SLX sux.)
[15:42] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[15:42] Garn Conover: SLuX
[15:42] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[15:42] Garn Conover: ;)
[15:42] Jacek Antonelli: UXIG was almost going to be called SLUX
[15:42] Garn Conover: >.<
[15:42] Hal Klaxon: let you crop and scale screenshots from inside SL.
[15:43] Morgaine Dinova: Ew
[15:43] Geneko Nemeth: Things like that. And also, like web frontends. Like, who's online...
[15:43] Jacek Antonelli: Actually, the mailing list *is* called SL-UX
[15:43] Geneko Nemeth: maps... that kind of stuff. Things relating to your avatar when it's not online.
[15:43] Garn Conover wonders if the arrow on the minimap is a new colour file line
[15:44] Jacek Antonelli: Garn: Nah, for some reason LL decided to color that one arrow, out of all of them.
[15:44] Garn Conover: well its the one just added, they used to all be yellow
[15:44] Garn Conover: or some of em did
[15:44] Hal Klaxon: Is there a way to make it always 9:00 inthe morning?
[15:45] Geneko Nemeth: It's called the WindLight editor...
[15:45] Jacek Antonelli: Hal: In SL? You can use World > Environment Settings > Environment Editor
[15:45] Jacek Antonelli: Then slide the time slider
[15:46] Hal Klaxon: But doesn't it reset when you log off?
[15:46] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[15:46] Jacek Antonelli: I don't think there's any way to make it stick permanently
[15:46] Hal Klaxon: that should be an option.
[15:47] Geneko Nemeth wants to expose more of Second Life's rendering options into that place, like glow, shadows, WindLight postproc, and such...
[15:47] Jacek Antonelli: Any other topic ideas? How about non-UI things? Other aspects of the total user experience?
[15:48] Geneko Nemeth: There is user experience outside the UI?
[15:48] Jacek Antonelli: Yep
[15:48] Hal Klaxon: AO built into the viewer.
[15:48] Jacek Antonelli: Built-in AO is a popular idea, yep
[15:48] Garn Conover reads up
[15:49] Hal Klaxon: If it's popular, why hasn't it happened?
[15:49] Geneko Nemeth: It has.
[15:49] Geneko Nemeth: Emerald.
[15:49] Hal Klaxon: Really? I can't get that one workign.
[15:49] Garn Conover: because it needs 3rd party before LL does anything these days
[15:49] Garn Conover: u guys hear about SL Mentors?
[15:49] Jacek Antonelli: It hasn't happened in mainline SL because LL has other priorities. -_-
[15:49] Geneko Nemeth: Yeah so what does that have to d-
[15:49] Geneko Nemeth: Yeah, bet that's really damaging to the first hour experience.
[15:50] Jacek Antonelli: They ought to just send newbies straight to NCI, heh. And start paying NCI's operational costs
[15:51] Garn Conover: hehe well they are gonna start RHN again hopefully this time they keep it
[15:51] Jacek Antonelli: I hope so
[15:52] Jacek Antonelli: How about things on the web site? Account information, transaction history, whatever. Anything there that needs some UX love?
[15:52] Jacek Antonelli: Blog, forums, anything
[15:52] Jacek Antonelli: Search
[15:52] Hal Klaxon: why can't we get transaction history from inside the viewer?
[15:52] Jacek Antonelli: Good question
[15:52] Hal Klaxon: At least for the current session.
[15:52] Geneko Nemeth: Second Life? Not much we can do about that... but maybe about OpenSim grids?
[15:53] Hal Klaxon: How does that work on opensim? Do you use any currency?
[15:53] Jacek Antonelli: We can talk about things we can't improve ourselves. Build up some recommendations for LL to ignore.
[15:53] Geneko Nemeth: No, I'm talking about blogs, forums, searches, online friend lists, that kind of stuffs...
[15:54] Geneko Nemeth: Build up some recommendations for OpemSim grids to take.
[15:55] Jacek Antonelli: We could even talk about the usability issues with SLX and other marketplaces, and how those could be improved to make the overall experience better
[15:55] Geneko Nemeth: Although they will probably cite that inexistant license incompability and ignore us too.
[15:55] Hal Klaxon: SLX needs a better wayt ot make a single payment.
[15:55] Hal Klaxon: /way to/
[15:55] Hal Klaxon: without teleporting soemwhere.
[15:55] Geneko Nemeth: You could just Pay Exchange Street...
[15:55] Hal Klaxon: can't I pay a fake avatar directly?
[15:55] Hal Klaxon: Who?
[15:56] Geneko Nemeth: Exchange Street.
[15:56] Hal Klaxon: Oh....
[15:56] Hal Klaxon: And I can pay him directly?
[15:56] Geneko Nemeth: UUID dcdf9a20-6175-45aa-ba0d-118ba0a975ba.
[15:56] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, you can pay him directly.
[15:57] Hal Klaxon: I never knew.
[15:57] Geneko Nemeth: Although maybe it could get more direct than this?
[15:57] Geneko Nemeth: Seriously. LL brought SLX and they still behave as if they are indie.
[15:57] Hal Klaxon: Are they afraid to integrate the accounts for security reasons?
[15:57] Geneko Nemeth: Not that we are going to help them of course.
[15:58] Hal Klaxon: It's nto a first-hour usability issue.
[15:58] Hal Klaxon: /not/
[15:58] Geneko Nemeth liked OnRez shop better.
[15:58] Garn Conover: i wonder if SLX can deduct from your sl account directly
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: Not yet.
[15:59] Jacek Antonelli: Mmkay, I'm gonna add SLX/marketplace usability as a future topic
[15:59] Jacek Antonelli: What else?
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: Uh, please don't.
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: We don't want to help SLX.
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: Okay, I don't.
[15:59] Jacek Antonelli: Think of it as "what other marketplaces should avoid doing" then
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: I'd rather see some third-party marketplace go up.
[15:59] Hal Klaxon: It's reallt LL's business.
[15:59] Geneko Nemeth: So it's like talking about CVS?
[16:00] Geneko Nemeth: Oh man, anachroistic chat.
[16:00] Jacek Antonelli: Other topic ideas?
[16:00] Geneko Nemeth: Pizza?
[16:01] Hal Klaxon: is the devil.
[16:01] Jacek Antonelli: You already said pizza
[16:02] Hal Klaxon: I've gort a question.
[16:02] Jacek Antonelli: Go ahead
[16:02] Hal Klaxon: A bit off topic, but, what kind of hardware are you guys using to get the best user experience?
[16:04] Jacek Antonelli: I'm running a Linux box with an AMD quad-core Phenom, 4GB memory, and dual Geforce 8600 graphics cards.
[16:04] Hal Klaxon: For instance, my CPU is at 100% right now and nobody is moving at all.
[16:05] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, SL pretty much sucks up as much of your resources as it can
[16:05] Hal Klaxon: That seems wrong.
[16:05] Jacek Antonelli: No matter how good your hardware is
[16:05] Hal Klaxon: wasteful.
[16:06] Geneko Nemeth is watching (Skipping the more irrevelant part)
[16:06] Hal Klaxon: or very frugal.
[16:06] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, it is
[16:07] Jacek Antonelli: Mmmkay, I think that's all for this week. One last time -- any other topics?
[16:08] Geneko Nemeth: Pizza!
[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Sleep :-)
[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks for meeting Jacek
[16:09] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, all! Thanks for coming
[16:09] Jacek Antonelli: See you next week