Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-02-16

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07:59  Cummere Mayo  hey ann :)
  Oz Linden  wow... good turnout today
08:00  Honour McMillan  we were promised cookies
  Cummere Mayo  yeah lotta things to say
  Jonathan  I heard about the popcorn
  Q Linden  hey all
  Jonathan  Hi q
  Oz Linden  all on-topic, of course....
  Temple Fiertze  Hello Oz and Q
  Honour McMillan  Q!
  Q Linden  having machine troubles, brb
  Ann Otoole  Q needs a beefier computer
08:01  Jonathan  Or a hot spare
  Cummere Mayo  is it his comp or is it the client? Im struggling with the 2.7 build
  Ann Otoole  my 2.5 has no delete/trashcan for picks
08:02  Cummere Mayo  that is fixed in 2.7 ann
  Ann Otoole  i'm feeling ripped off :(
  Temple Fiertze  Oz, do you formally open the floor for questions, or do we just dive in?
  Dil Spitz  Hey there :)

if no one protest i like to listen this meeting silently

  Ann Otoole  so another it was there and someone paid to put it back again?
  Jonathan  Everyone is welcome Dil
  Honour McMillan  Dil :) I rarely speak
  draconis.neurocam  there is sort of an agenda page on the wiki
  Cummere Mayo  dil: heathen! we cast you out! J/k
08:03  Ann Otoole  The agenda for the next meeting is:

1. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834 2. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978 3. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49 4. Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned. 5. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136

  JIRA-helper  VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
    VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
    VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
  Jonathan  vwr-24136
08:04  Wolfpup  oz this going to be a mix of text and voice?
  Ann Otoole  i actually like the new OH page. easy tofind stuff and the calendar is great
  Jonathan  what is the url for that agenda?
  draconis.neurocam  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  Oz Linden  no... I was just being lazy... waiting for Q
  Ann Otoole  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
08:05  Oz Linden  if there are things you want to discuss that are not on the agenda, add them now (at the end)
  Cummere Mayo  um might want to refresh the agenda
  Temple Fiertze  I believe this forum is for Viewer 2 changes?
08:06    If that is correct, than I will type question
  Ann Otoole  # https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23834
  1. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16978
  2. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
  3. Broken links in inventory should be able to be reassigned.
  JIRA-helper  VWR-23834 Viewer needlessly hits the "ObjectMedia" cap with thousands of requests
    VWR-16978 'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0
  Cummere Mayo  theres more stuff now ann
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I'm logged in but it still doesn't give me edit perms, Oz
  Oz Linden  Q is having some system difficulties....
  Ann Otoole  # https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
  1. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804
  2. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/storm-2
  3. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24807
  JIRA-helper  VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
    VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
    STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
    VWR-24807 Add ability to filter cookies into the browser
  Fancy Linden Greeter  Q Linden has arrived!
  Ann Otoole  wb Q :)
  Oz Linden  it is not edittable by sections... use the tab at the top of the page
08:07  TriloByte Zanzibar  ok thanks
  Q Linden  sorry, all, Firefox decided to claim all of my machine
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  bad FF
  Cummere Mayo  take it you made the mistake of upgrading too?
  Q Linden  ah well
08:08    anyway, what are we talking about so far?
  Honour McMillan  you
  Cummere Mayo  we jsut psoted the agenda
  Oz Linden  we were waiting
  Ann Otoole  i hesitate toupgrade anything. windows update usually kills ny network card.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  "lets wayt for q to come back"
  Q Linden  nice to see such a big crowd
  Oz Linden  let's start at the top.... VWR-23834
  Cummere Mayo  grins wickedly
  Temple Fiertze  New to this, so maybe I'm missing the agenda, but here is my question...The new Profile View in 2.5 is not working on Mac computers. Is there a fix for this?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  Morning, Q
  Cummere Mayo  temple can you add that to the end of the agenda please?
08:09  TriloByte Zanzibar  Temple, it works fine on my machines
  Cummere Mayo  https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  Temple Fiertze  Where is the agenda?
  Jonathan  I messed up the numbering of the agenda not knowing how to format the wiki
  Temple Fiertze  As stated, new so I think I'm missing something
  Honour McMillan  smacks Jonathan
  Jonathan  https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Evolution_User_Group
  Q Linden  temple, are you getting SSL error?
  Temple Fiertze  thanks
08:10  Ann Otoole  everyone take a deep breath because it is awesome andeasy once you seehowit works
  Oz Linden  who put 23834 on the agenda?
  Cummere Mayo  jonathan for future reference to do what you were trying is ##
  Jonathan  ok, please fix it
  Emma Floresby  hello :) am I bothering ?
  draconis.neurocam  i did, it is a problem that is worse in some sims than others, i notice it usually when logging in
  Ann Otoole  unlike my broken space bar that only half works.
  draconis.neurocam  watching the debug menu
08:11    i just get spammed with llmediadataclient requests
  Honour McMillan  Morning Emma
  Emma Floresby  hi Honour :)
  draconis.neurocam  the sheer amount of which usually causes framerate loss
  TriloByte Zanzibar  Oz, that's the problem that we talked about last week with the viewer stuttering, I believe
  Ann Otoole  are they redzone url forcings? thats everywhere on mainland now.
  Oz Linden  I think we should take a look at it, but would you please add some pointers to places where the problem is especially bad soe that we have good test cases?
08:12  draconis.neurocam  sure, i can add them to the jira comments
  Q Linden  whoops, that's on my queue and I let it slide
  Oz Linden  Ann... not the current agenda item
  Jonathan  Oz, reload that agenda page when you have a moment
08:13  Ann Otoole  so llmediaclient requests are not related to scripted forcing of urls toload?
  Oz Linden  it's not the performance issue, Ann
  Ann Otoole  ok
08:14  Oz Linden  next item : VWR-16978
  TriloByte Zanzibar  VWR-23834 is relates to VWR-23318
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318

VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"

  Q Linden  i'm not sure it is, trilobyte, but it may be
08:15  Ann Otoole  I only get some stutter as stuff firehoses in on landing. After that it settles down.
  draconis.neurocam  for 16978 i added that as well, the fix is easy and has been listed on the viewer 2 tweaks page since the day viewer 2 dropped almost
    im just wondering how it never found its way in
08:16  Q Linden  I'm moving 23834 to STORM so we can tackle it in a sprint
  Jonathan  vwr-23944 and vwr-23946 address this and some other organizational issues
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946

VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944

VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement

08:17  draconis.neurocam  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks/Full_2.0.0.203055#Add_Inspect_back_on_objects_and_avatar_objects is the fix for adding inspect back in
  Oz Linden  I've not used this feature on 1.23, so I can't really comment
    Q?
  draconis.neurocam  it is useful when finding stolen content
  Cummere Mayo  its an amazingly useful feature
  avatar42  I agree
  Jonathan  Oz, those are 2 items from my long list--I thought Wolf would look at them
  Ann Otoole  presumed "stolen"content anyway
  draconis.neurocam  reguardless the information is useful
  Cummere Mayo  theres tons of other places it comes in handy too
08:18  Ann Otoole  i'd love to right click an avatar and see a list of their entire payload by name including memory and script count myself.
08:19  Cummere Mayo  nyx is working on soemthig like that
  Jonathan  Ann, I have a svc jira in for that, too
  lufpleh Obstreperous  wonders if Object Profile > Details is similar to Inspect
  Sera Lok  seems like there is something in the properties window that does "Inspect", it's just not called "INspect"? i'm not on v2 right now so can't check :/
  Q Linden  ann, wouldnt' that be a privacy leak?
  Honour McMillan  Luf it doesn't give the detail
  Jonathan  There is Object Profile and then Object Details
    which is the old Inspect
08:20  Honour McMillan  hmmmm
  Ann Otoole  nope. it would allow us to eject people carrying malicious objects
  Jonathan  but it is hard to find and doesn't always work
  Ann Otoole  and spot script overusers fast
  Jonathan  you can wear a hud to script usage / avatar
  Script Counter 

Total Avatar Scripts - 2250 Highest - Temple Fiertze: 649 (29%) Lowest - Oz Linden: 0 (0%)

  Jonathan  *to see
08:21  Oz Linden  A quick process note... 16978 describes a solution, not a problem
  Q Linden  i'm not really sure what's being asked for here
  Oz Linden  I've just heard several problems for which it _might_ be the right solution
  Ann Otoole  so the feature is there by way of scripts now. why not be in the client?
  Cummere Mayo  a return for a feature that 1.x had that 2.x didnt q...
  F L I P  "'Inspect' is missing from Viewer 2.0" isn't a problem?
  Ann Otoole  we are talking avatar attachments and not rezzeditems right?
08:22  Oz Linden  not clear, Ann
  draconis.neurocam  it is removed functionality from 1.2x and snowglobe
  Cummere Mayo  a feature incredibly useful to buidlers, sim owners, etc
  Jonathan  Oz, my 2 jiras are better written--I mean to pass them by snowstorm once wolf is more settled in
  Cummere Mayo  (btw inspect worked on rezzed items and on attachments)
  oobscure  I apologize for the interruption: unfortunately I have to leave now and i'm not sure I'll be back in SL before the meeting's over. I'm the one who added https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 to the agenda, so feel free not to discuss it here .. but please take note that 2.5 official release seems to be unusable for Linux users because of this bug. Bye everybody, and again sorry.
  JIRA-helper  STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:23  Ann Otoole  i'm kind of curious about privacy in general. which user group should we discuss privacy in?
  Q Linden  thanks, oo, 809 is in process now
08:24    but anyway, let's get back to the other issue
    this feels related to but not identical to the build tools question
  Oz Linden  it is not a requirement that the viewer always preserve all past ways of doing anything, so if a feature is removed that's not by itself a bug. In this case, it's clear that many people have problems that feature helped with, so we should probably do something about it. Whether or not that somethign is bringing back exactly the old way remains to be seen
  Q Linden  oz is correct
  draconis.neurocam  the code is still in the viewer, all that is required is an xml change
  Jonathan  Oz, that feature is present, just not easily discovered
  Cummere Mayo  the code is still there exactly
08:25  Q Linden  I remember that we reenabled this a while back
  Jonathan  That are what my 2 jiras are about
  Ann Otoole  as long as we can be aware of the new method.I've personally relearned everything for SLv2.
    didn'tkillme torelearn
  Jonathan  The old Inspect is now Object Details, down in Object Profile window
  Cummere Mayo  but it doesnt work well with attachments
08:26  Jonathan  Cummere, it will if my 2 jiras are taken up
    I fixed that 2 months ago but they got put on hold
  Q Linden  So yes, I'd like to get wolf in on this discussion, now that we have him.
  Oz Linden  Ann... might it be a good learning tool if we added a Hint for this... the first time you open Object Profile it could popup a reminder that the details are there and describe whta they do?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I like that idea, Oz
08:27  Gentle Heron  Hints are almost always a good idea!
  Ann Otoole  sure. might help some. i hack away tilli figure it out.
  Jonathan  everyone please look at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23944
  JIRA-helper  VWR-23944 Object Menu reorganization and enhancement
  Cummere Mayo  that would work though imo it would be better to make it a front level
  Jonathan  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23946
  draconis.neurocam  oh, i am sorry actually i did not realize it was still there but hidden in the object profile tab
  JIRA-helper  VWR-23946 Add the option to see object details when right clicking on another avatar
  Jonathan  note the attached images
  Cummere Mayo  I like jonathans solution much better
  Q Linden  Jonathan, thanks.
  Cummere Mayo  easier faster less confusing and less clicks
08:28  Oz Linden  ok... I think we've got the problem framed well enough to get some review going on solutions
  Q Linden  Let's get wolf on this and pursue it soon; I'm thinking when we get the build sprint going
    right
    let's move on
  Jonathan  Wolf is our new ui design member, he can evaluate these ideas
  Oz Linden  time to move to the next item?
  draconis.neurocam  yes
  Cummere Mayo  please
  Oz Linden  ecc-49
    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-49
  Jonathan  that's an internal link
  draconis.neurocam  since 2.4 cloth deforms have not been viewable on other avatars
  Cummere Mayo  that looks like it should go to nyx's team but... they no longer have a usergroup
08:29  Oz Linden  clingy pants
  Sera Lok  wow that's a 1.xx thing too eh?
  Q Linden  it's public, though, jonathan
  Sera Lok  found its way into v2 yay
  Q Linden  we talked about this yesterday in our internal meeting
    we're trying to get it some attention
  Nea Fredriksson  i added in the jira comments that this seems to cause avatar cloth effects to show on skintight clothes too
08:30  draconis.neurocam  until mesh comes out theres no way to have baggy clothing that looks semi decent, and non stiff
    without it
  Q Linden  can we just say yes, we know, and we've escalated it?
  draconis.neurocam  ok
  Ann Otoole  are you sure that is not tied to something else like rebakes partially complete and pressing rebake starts the cycle again except the moment you press rebake it rezzes properly?
  Oz Linden  we did some checks yesterday, and rebake doesn't seem to help, Ann
08:31  Q Linden  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17469
  JIRA-helper  VWR-17469 Cannot delete broken links
  Q Linden  doesn't consistently help :(
  Jonathan  I started to work on this--now I know how to make a broken link, but didn't figure out how to delete them yet
08:32  Cummere Mayo  dumb question but might this be a server side thing?
  Oz Linden  well, creating the problem is usually more than half the battle :-)
  Jonathan  no, it is done in the viewer
  Q Linden  jonathan should we move it to storm?
  Jonathan  yes
    it is a definite problem, though occurs rarely
  Cummere Mayo  as i siad dumb question
  TriloByte Zanzibar  wouldn't you delete them by taking the item off (or detaching) from current outfit and re-saving?
  Ann Otoole  no repro is kind of a problem there.
08:33  Jonathan  I will put in the repo
  Ann Otoole  people need tosend the stuff to the devs to try with
  Cummere Mayo  that doesnt work trilo
    at least... not for me
  Jonathan  Trilo, what you said applies to a link, not a broken one
08:34  Cummere Mayo  ann the broken links i had were not easily or consistantly reproed
  Q Linden  jonathan, STORM-1002
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1002

STORM-1002 Cannot delete broken links

  Jonathan  thank you Q
  TriloByte Zanzibar  ok, I'll muck around with it again. The couple times I'd seen a broken link in my inventory, that's what got rid of it
  Cummere Mayo  q open mic
  Jonathan  You should be able to r click on a broken link and just delete it
  Wolfpup  i hear you q ans Oz
08:35  Cummere Mayo  anyways move on?
  Q Linden  ok, sorry about that, voice fail :(
  Oz Linden  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24136
  JIRA-helper  VWR-24136 Deprecate AllowMultipleViewers
  Cummere Mayo  please please please can we do this?
  Q Linden  so the problem is that I think if we do this it will break SLURLS
08:36  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  please no, its usefull being able to run more than one viewer at once
  F L I P  Ya know, if you call someone and they don't accept within a certain amount of time, the call won't work even when they finally do accept. Not sure how relevant that is o.O
  Cummere Mayo  tank this will let you
    easier
  Q Linden  what the bug is asking for is that it be the default
  Oz Linden  The question I've got is... is this potentially confusing to users who are not power-SLers?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  tank this will let you. The idea is to have it always be true and get it off the debug settings list
  Wolfpup  actualy that has ben upgraded so that it is in the general tab of preferences
  Cummere Mayo  i really dont think so oz...
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  then its not being deprecated...
  Q Linden  the SLURLs work by starting a viewer and handing off the destination
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I can't imagine that you'd try to run multiple viewers if you're not a power user
08:37  Cummere Mayo  q ive almsot never had an issue getting the surl to the viewer i want
  Oz Linden  but might you start more than one unintentionally?
  Wolfpup  actualy it is in the advanced tab of preferences
  Oz Linden  like with a slurl?
  Jonathan  If you click on a slurl and have a viewer running you get a teleport-to floater, right?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yeah, slurl links haven't worked for me in over a year
  Cummere Mayo  nope
    it looks for one open
    before it starts a new
  Ann Otoole  grumbles about wiki and the + instead of spaces
  TriloByte Zanzibar  not for me, cummere... at least not in mac os
08:38  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  well, ok, phoenix has this enabled by default, and rarly if ever have we had a support issue on it
  Q Linden  so this isn't a terrible idea, but nor is it a slam dunk
  Oz Linden  that spaces problem is different... and is fixed now except on Linux
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  so it might be alright in the official viewer to have it enabled by default as well
  Cummere Mayo  its one of the first 24 things im usually asked about by new rezis
08:39  Ima Mechanique  sOz soinstead of a "Sl is already running" message that happens currently, replace with a "Are you sure you want to open another viwer dialogue"
  Cummere Mayo  can /how do I run more then one viewer
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  that would be fine
  Ann Otoole  it is an option in preferences to run multiple viewers now
  Q Linden  why do new users want to run mor ethan one viewer?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  same here, it's a popular topic in the macintosh users group as well
  Oz Linden  I've got a suggestion... if we wrote a test plan that included all the ways to launch SL and whether each should or should not start a new one....
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  alts
  Oz Linden  and agreed on that
08:40  Cummere Mayo  q becuase they found a reg api that allows them to make a new avi with a legacy name in most cases
    and want to xfer stuff
  Ann Otoole  heck i reinstalled and slurls just get me adialog toassociate a program now
  Oz Linden  and then had someone turn on Allow Mutiple Viewers in t the current viewer and run through the cases
  TriloByte Zanzibar  alts/photos/machinima
  Q Linden  ok, cummere, that makes sense
  Oz Linden  then we'd know if we've got a problem or not changign the default
  Ann Otoole  use case matrix hades
08:41  Cummere Mayo  (which should give you soem feedback to hand back to whoever about registration names too)
  Q Linden  good point :)
  Oz Linden  do we have a volunteer to write the test cases?
08:42  Cummere Mayo  -if- i find time this weekend
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  the only short term issue might be that sence user settings are inversse of the origonal, there might be some conflits there untill the user clears their settings file
  Oz Linden  if we have to, we could easily build a test viewer once we have a test plan
08:43  Jonathan  Is it in their privat settings file if they have never changed it?
  Oz Linden  but until we know what all teh cases are and what we want for each, there's not much point
  Cummere Mayo  Ill try ang get one together over the weekend. if i dont... remind me at scrum monday
  Q Linden  oh, if this is a binary setting, we literally can't change the default
    we have to create a new setting with the opposite value and change the code
  lufpleh Obstreperous  thinks the present preferance check box is suffucient, little gain to be had by this
08:44  Oz Linden  or just change the code, if we find that we don't really need a setting
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ok
    i think currently its a bool
  Q Linden  yeah, probably
  Cummere Mayo  if its really not needed wouldnt it be awesome to strip it out ?
08:45    unneeded code is a waste
  Q Linden  IF
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  ^
  Q Linden  anyway, let's talk again after investigation
  Oz Linden  Next - VWR-24804
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804

VWR-24804 Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear

  Sera Lok  begs the question in what case does a user NOT want to have the ability to run mult viewers... not so much why they would want it
08:46  draconis.neurocam  this was being looked at by andrew linden, it was mentioned at the server meeting yesterday
  Ryu Darragh  I use it when testing.
  draconis.neurocam  the reattaching issue
  Ann Otoole  I have never repro'd that one.
  Q Linden  sera, because most people don't have multiple logins
  Ryu Darragh  Multiviewer is usefol for content creators.
  TriloByte Zanzibar  The only time I've had removed attachments revert is during periods of heavy server lag
  Oz Linden  moving on....
  Q Linden  it does feel like an advanced use case to me
  Jonathan  Multiple viewers is also useful to be on 2 grids at the same time
  Sera Lok  yes,, I use it alot.. that was my point^^ anyway..
  Q Linden  anyway....
08:47    SH-999 is under active investigation
  Ryu Darragh  I've never had the attachment problem.
    Even with 2.x
  Q Linden  so I think this is happening now
  Cummere Mayo  thats related but NOT the same issue
  Q Linden  not sure we need to say much more here, do we?
  TriloByte Zanzibar  yes, it's been happening occasionally, think of it as rubber-banding on attachments
08:48  Ryu Darragh  Do others see these phantom attachments?
  Cummere Mayo  this occurs with any layer and doesnt always boot attachments, usually puts old clothing and attachments back on
  F L I P  I don't like that JIRA's use of the term "boots off" (presumably to mean "detaches") so close to the word "Jacket"...gets confusing, are we talking about boots or jackets?
  Cummere Mayo  and they arent phaontom everyone sees them
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I believe so, but just like with rubber-banding, removing again usually resolves it
  Ryu Darragh  Any item, I think, Flip
  Q Linden  so if everyone sees them, feels like a server issue
08:49  TriloByte Zanzibar  it's definitely a server issue
  Jonathan  It was discussed in detail with Andrew
  Cummere Mayo  k well i dont have the ability to move to svc
  Ryu Darragh  And if not, is a client machine/connection problem?
  Q Linden  and both andrew and the SH team ar e on it
  Oz Linden  should I move this to SVC, Q
     ?
  Q Linden  yes, let's do that
  lufpleh Obstreperous  oskar & kitty barnet were discussing trying to repro this yesterday in beta group
  Oz Linden  next item is STORM-2
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2

STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.

08:50  Cummere Mayo  ild like to know what the palns are to take this?
  Ryu Darragh  Yummy ^.^
  Ann Otoole  can-o-wurmz?
  Ryu Darragh  I eat wurmz...
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  lol
  TriloByte Zanzibar  the project build showed promise, but needed work
  Cummere Mayo  personally i think graphics movement prefs should be also similarly saveable
  Q Linden  ok, i'm gonna put a stop right here to saving floater states as part of this project
08:51    we could bury this by adding too much
  Ann Otoole  well the default bottom bar buttons are newbieish already. wouldlove an advanced user setting that is the oppositeof that. (for instance)
  Q Linden  first step is just the positions and sizes
    and presence
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  thats really helpful right there
  Cummere Mayo  right... and my understanding is we have that?
  draconis.neurocam  not for things on the sidebar, they are definitely only in one place
  TriloByte Zanzibar  local chat width as well, I don't think that was included yet
08:52  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  id like to see all the buttons on the bottom enabled by efault so new users know they exsist
  Oz Linden  Question for you alll.... what do you tihnk of the bottom bar buttons with icons in Firestorm, as opposed to the text labels?
  Cummere Mayo  oz I love firestorms ui
  TriloByte Zanzibar  I prefer icons, more space efficient
  Ryu Darragh  I'm interested in trying multiple child windows for those of us with multiple monitors.
  Ima Mechanique  loved Firestorm
  Ann Otoole  i don't use tpvs except once in a while kirstens
  Oz Linden  I didn't ask a general question, Cummere
  Cummere Mayo  including their ability to make the annoying sidebar optional
  Dil Spitz  debug-floater also do not remember its pose as the statisics do also no
  lufpleh Obstreperous  fine forolder users, meaningless to new
  Cummere Mayo  bu the iocns are a +
    smaller, sleaker, dont require translating
08:53  Sera Lok  prefers a choice or, if icon, mouseover text at least
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  if you allow different skins, like in FS, you can have different skins with different UI options
  Ann Otoole  i personally think allviewers should use the same iconography
  draconis.neurocam  if the images would make it possible to maybe move some sidebar things to the bottom bar i would be all for it
  TriloByte Zanzibar  the one in 2.x with the little camera seems universally understood (and no need for localization, save for floating help/tooltip)
  Q Linden  based on bitter experience, you have to have some text for buttons, even if it's just a tooltip
  Sera Lok  i like being able to point to a named thing when helping newer residents, not an icon thingie i have to describe
  Q Linden  so you gotta localize that anyway
    exactly, sera
  Oz Linden  focus people... this becomes impossible if everyone goes off on a separate tangent
08:54  Ann Otoole  *if* LL wanted a true skinnable UI then there is a lotof work to be done.
  Q Linden  we know, ann, and that's why storm 2 starts it
  Cummere Mayo  usually if they have tool tips on i can help them find icons
  Ann Otoole  like eqII etc
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  sere does have a point, and the main reason why we added skins with lables instead of icons fo rht ebuttons, despite it takes up more room
  Oz Linden  we're trying to bite off the pieces we have some hope of swallowing and that don't cause support confusion
08:55  Q Linden  right (*gulp*)
  Ann Otoole  LL should not support custom skins
  TriloByte Zanzibar  do you have a lot of support issues with the snapshot button, Oz?
  Cummere Mayo  we might not be able to get rid of ALL text but we could probably make more of them icons
  Ann Otoole  not support teamwise
  Cummere Mayo  like a map for the map button ><
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  if possible, perhaps have it optional to display lables or not?
  Ann Otoole  skinners must support their skins
  Sera Lok  shrugs.. i like text
  Cummere Mayo  and the almsot unviersal speak icon for the vc button
08:56  Oz Linden  Icons arent' the problem for support, TrioByte... fully skinning that allowed users to drastically rearrange the interface probably is
  Ann Otoole  don't be a skinner if you don't want topay the support time price
  Q Linden  and to sera's point, you have to have a name
    for everything
    even if it's not on the screen
  Ryu Darragh  Need to have either rollbacl system or a revert button :P
  Cummere Mayo  yeah but allot of that can be done in tool tips
08:57  Q Linden  anyway, icons on the bottom bar -- i sthere a jira for that?
  Sera Lok  true enough. i'm just thinking of new users already overwhelmed with images/icons
  Oz Linden  The problem arises when skins are shared... some newbie meets a power user, power user says "use this skin", newbie is now off the reservation with little help possible because support doesn't even have the skin
  Ann Otoole  if i made a real mmorpg ui then i would never ask LL's support staff tosupport it.
  Ryu Darragh  Yes.
  Cummere Mayo  amen ann
08:58  TriloByte Zanzibar  I see VWR-22599 for icons on bottom bar
  JIRA-helper  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22599

VWR-22599 Bottom bar icons only

  Ryu Darragh  You'd need to vette such skins like 3rd part viewers and that'd be a nightmare.
  Sera Lok  but you can bet people using it would be looking to LL to support it eh^^
  Cummere Mayo  oz... with all due respect... we dont send new users to support... we want them to get support
    ><
  Oz Linden  not helpful, Cummere
  Ann Otoole  LL's support would simply say "you are detected using a tpv UI. You must contact them for support. Goodbye."
08:59  Cummere Mayo  oz... support tells new residents "file a ticket"
  Ryu Darragh  I'm on a ressie support team and *we* need to know what viewer and have used it when we help newbies :P
  Ann Otoole  so we have a solid requirement for skin identification
  Oz Linden  which is a failure from the newbie point of view, so it's not a trap we want to leave lying around
  Q Linden  ok, so that's all the time we have....
    all the time *I* have anyway
  Jonathan  Can the rest of the agenda carry over to next week?
  Q Linden  so thanks all
    yes
  Oz Linden  thanks folks...good meeting
  draconis.neurocam  yes much thanks q and oz
  Cummere Mayo  wish would could make this twice weekly
  Sera Lok  thank you, will you be looking at the other items not reached today?
  Ryu Darragh  Thanks for being here, Q
09:00  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  aww, i wanted to know whats going to be new in 2.6 :P
  Dil Spitz  thanks Q :)
  Jonathan  Sera, they will carry over to the next meeting
  Temple Fiertze  ANy help from anyone would be good for item 14
  Ann Otoole  tyhanks guys. i'm liking the new format.
  Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks  thx for taking your time with us, oz and Q
  Temple Fiertze  this is a question that effects my RL job
    thanks!
  draconis.neurocam  tank its 2.7 now, but you could easily download and try it
  Sera Lok  ok thanks Jonathan^^