Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-16

08:00	Tonya Souther	Hi, Oz.
08:01	Ju	hi Oz
	Oz Linden	Hi everybody
	Nimh	HI Oz
	WolfPup Lowenhar	shouts: Hello Jessica and welcome to Hippotropolis a new game of Zyngo Multi will be starting shortly.
	translator Nimh20's Google Translator	HI Oz
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	morning oz ㋡
	draconis.neurocam	0.0
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
08:02	Nimh	Oz--I have something real quick to put out there
	Jessica Lyon	lol WolfPup
	Oz Linden	how quick is real quick?
	Wolfpup	sorry have @$$ette issues this morning
	WolfPup Lowenhar	shouts: sorry have @$$ette issues this morning
	Oz Linden	not many things are around here, has been my experience....
	Nimh	When a new user logs into SL on V2 the first time their MIC is on --so the speak buttion is pressed---
08:03		So its loud etc. etc.
	Oz Linden	really?
	Nimh	CAn you change this debug setting to False?
		PTTCurrentlyEnabled Use Push to Talk mode Boolean True No
	Jonathan	I brought that up too at the end of a scrum and Q said that was the desired behavior -- mic on for new users
	Tonya Souther	facepaws.
	Nimh	ok i tried
	Ju	ouch
	Toy	>.<
08:04	Oz Linden	well, if that's what Q said, then it's probably true
	Tonya Souther	That one sets the BS flag.
	Nimh	Yeah its great when all the NOOBS get Muted
		makes perfect sense
	Jessica Lyon	cough...
	Wolfpup	Oz there is an issue in the drop from yesterday in basic mode
	WolfPup Lowenhar	shouts: Oz there is an issue in the drop from yesterday in basic mode
	Jonathan	Since we are adding a hint to the speak button maybe that decision can be revisited
	Oz Linden	I assume that there's an issue on that somewhere (or 12)
	Nimh	Excuse me Tanya?
		What was that?
08:05	Oz Linden	put it on the agenda, WP
	Tonya Souther	that it's enabled by default as intended behavior. That can't be right.
		Not saying you're BSing anyone.
	Wolfpup	oz it is more of a bug i think
	WolfPup Lowenhar	shouts: oz it is more of a bug i think
	Oz Linden	would someone look for an issue on that and add it to the end of the agenda, please?
	Tonya Souther	Or certainly at least a misfeature.
	Jonathan	wolfpup could you stop shouting?
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	or at least unwanted behavior by the users
	Oz Linden	stop shouting, Wolfpup
08:06	Nimh	The intended Behavior is causesing all NOOBS to be Muted--Isnt' SL about communitacting
	Wolfpup	sorry loging issues after a crash this morning
	Oz Linden	ok ok - I get it
		find an issue
	Nimh	thanks for your time on a small issue
	Oz Linden	VWR-25167
08:07	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25167 VWR-25167 Attachment point values for parallel limbs have different values in avatar_lad.xml
	draconis.neurocam	just found this , it seems silly
		they should be the same i would think no?
	Robin Cornelius	waves, sorry i'm late
	Tonya Souther	I've been wrangling with it since getting on SL...but wouldn't changing it require people to edit every attachment?
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	new resident is fumeling around, pressing ont he keybaord etc, not knowing they are brodcasting sounds... other residents mute them, then the new resident figures out the sound is on and asks a question, noone heras them
	Wolfpup	hey robin hows the viewer
	Robin Cornelius	not using it yet, at work using radagast
08:08	Wolfpup	ok
	Oz Linden	so the issue is that the attachment points are not symmetric?
	draconis.neurocam	yes
	Tonya Souther	Or, worse, make things look different on people depending on which viewer they're using to look at them?
	Nimh	Thanks Tankmaster but i guess when you code all day you loose common sense
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	or... new resident comes onto SL not knowning the mic is on, says something, others year, and new resident feels SL is invading their privacy by alywas having the mic open, which *may* though unlikely, cauese unwanted legal responce from the new resident
08:09	Oz Linden	seems odd, but I imagine that changing it would be far worse than leaving it alone
		tank ... we've moved on ...
	draconis.neurocam	i thought the position was stored, so if it was changed it would only effect new content
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	oh, lol, sorry :P
	draconis.neurocam	in the attachment
	Tonya Souther	I've had a complaint about the avatar mesh mapping ever since I got on SL, too, but fixing it would break existing content as well.
08:10	draconis.neurocam	the value change is tiny
		but still worthy in my opinion
	Oz Linden	it's stored in the attachment if you edit the position (drag it) ... don't know if it's stored if you leave it on the default relative to the attachment point
	draconis.neurocam	well usually creators, have a default set, when they box it
	Tonya Souther	But is it stored as an absolute value or as an offset from the attchment point?
	Ju	tiny but certainly noticeable
08:12	Tonya Souther	If the latter, moving the attachment piont will move the attachment.
08:13	Oz Linden	from the experiment I just did, it looks like the position stored is the offset from the chosen attach point
	Tonya Souther	Then changing ti will break content.
	Ju	too bad
	Robin Cornelius	attachments are child objects and positions are stored as offsets from the base position
08:14	Oz Linden	in any event - I don't think that we can change those points... we'd break tons of existing stuff
	Tonya Souther	you'd have to have a flag day to change it without getting different results based on viewer.
08:15	draconis.neurocam	legacy weirdness is just part of sl then i guess
	Ju	thanks for trying drac :)
	Oz Linden	Some decisions need to be made right the first time.... and then lived with regardless
	Wolfpup	i know im currently working on one legacy bug
	Oz Linden	like which side of the road to drive on :-)
08:16	Ima Mechanique	oz, that's what my parents said
	Oz Linden	storm-809
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
	Tonya Souther	Sweden changed sides of the road at modnight one New Year's Eve...
	Nimh	When are you all going to hire a new Search GSA person---No changes to GSA since 11/2010
		?
08:17	Oz Linden	Yes, we know about this one....
		nimh ... please stick to the agenda ... feel free to add items at the end
	Nimh	ok
08:18	Oz Linden	The repo for libcurl is public... if someone wants to provide a fix, it will get priority attention
08:19		we do know about this one, and it's on the list of things to sort out as part of moving to vs2010
	Discrete Dreamscape	Would that mean submitting a new prebuilt package as a patch?
	Oz Linden	which we're trying very hard to wrap up asap
	Robin Cornelius	apart from the obvious, what needs doing? is it as simple as patching the configure options of that pacakge to be correct?
	Oz Linden	no, it would mean providing a patch against the repo that builds the prebuild
		probably, Robin
	Discrete Dreamscape	Ah, that's easy then
08:20	Oz Linden	This is why we moved all the open dependencies out to bitbucket - so you could do this kind of issue
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	makes sense
	Robin Cornelius	let me cook a patch, should not take long at all
08:21		Oz will such patches work on review board?
	Oz Linden	you should be able to assign that STORM issue to yourself Robin
		I'd have to set up the repositories
	Robin Cornelius	ok unless you really want to, lets not do that right now, i believe its a one line change
	Oz Linden	I suppose I should do that, but I don't really want to spend the time to do all the ones no one is working on...
08:22		I'll add 3p-libcurl though after we're done here.
		let me know ... if it's more complicated then I'll set up the reviewboard
08:23	Discrete Dreamscape	I fixed it on my build with just a configure options changew
	Robin Cornelius	--non-blocking --c-ares or somthing off the top of my head
	welcome trigger	Leric777 Resident arriving
	Oz Linden	I'd like to make sure that it's correct for all the platforms, though
	Robin Cornelius	windows uses native threads for DNS resolver so its a non issue there
	Discrete Dreamscape	--enable-nonblocking --enable-threaded-resolver was what I added
08:24		Mac experiences the same problem as Linux apparently
	Robin Cornelius	yea makes sense it would
08:25	Tonya Souther	I haven't seen it that I know of...
	Oz Linden	to test the prebuild you'll have to base your viewer build off of oz_linden/viewer-autobuild
		welcome to the brave new world :-)
	Discrete Dreamscape	Woo!
08:26	Oz Linden	I really hope that we can get all that moved to viewer-development now - we were waiting for the 2.6 beta to be done, and I've been distracted by a lot of internal stuff
		will be spending most of today on making a punch list of what remains to be done
08:27		hopefully it won't be disruptive for too long
08:28		which brings us to the end of the list... so what's our next topic?
	Tonya Souther	VWR-25062
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25062 VWR-25062 Add the ability to allow or deny domains that parcel owners want to play in the viewer's media and audio players
	Oz Linden	I'm going to build a viewer with that and get some review done, Tonya - will be in touch soon
	Tonya Souther	nods.
08:29	Oz Linden	whether or not to include it is fairly sure to set off a significant discussion :-)
	Tonya Souther	Go ahead and pick tip off that repository.
	Jessica Lyon	understatement ^
08:30	Jonathan	Where is that allow/deny list stored?
08:31	Tonya Souther	User settings.
	Oz Linden	locally?
	Jessica Lyon	Local yes
	Jonathan	would it make more sense to store it server-side?
	Tonya Souther	yes...hang on, looking for the filename.
	Jonathan	like the mute list is now?
	Jessica Lyon	if LL would make a place for it server side it would make sense
	Tonya Souther	yes, medialist.xml locally.
08:32	Oz Linden	if we take the change, I suppose storing it server side becomes an issue
	Jessica Lyon	Well, if you guys take it, and make room for it server side we'll be happy to make the change to utilize that.
08:33	Jonathan	then there is the issue of how many the server would store, lenths, etc
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	42!
	Tonya Souther	That'd be something the TPV community woul happily accept.
08:34	Toy	COuld you just store md5 hashes in integer format to save space?
	Tonya Souther	not sure it would save any compared to a domain name.
	Oz Linden	I'll let you know if/when there's any decision on it, but I have not had a chance to seriously start the conversation yet
	Toy	In integer format, it's very short.
	Oz Linden	storage space really isn't an issue
08:35	Toy	Ok.
	Oz Linden	we add multiple terabytes/day to the storage for SL
	Toy	O.o
	Oz Linden	look around...
08:36	Jessica Lyon	lol
	Oz Linden	nimh... you had some other topic earlier?
08:37		guess not... anyone else?
08:38		oh... I've got one ....
	Toy	I am here the first time, so I might be behind on issues.
		So ... any plans on bringing back the pie menu?
	Oz Linden	XMPP group chat is now officially live-for-testing on the aditi grid
	Toy	Yay :)
08:39	Jonathan	was that the secret project merging in oz?
	Oz Linden	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Chat_Systems
	Tonya Souther	yay!
	Jessica Lyon	All libs are available now for building Oz?
	Oz Linden	don't know....
		let me look...
08:40	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	i was able to build the XMPP viewer a few weeks ago
	Nimh	Oh yes OZ
	Jonathan	I've been compiling it for over a month
	Jessica Lyon	Kadah, had said there was a missing Lib
	Nimh	Changing this debig value to False
	Oz Linden	no, it looks like libstrophe is still not posted
		will bug them about that
	Jessica Lyon	right ok ty
	Jonathan	the strophe lib was missing for a long time but finally appeared
	Oz Linden	bug there is a Project viewer for it now
08:41		https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers#Second_Life_Project_Viewers
	Nimh	PTTCurrentlyEnabled Use Push to Talk mode Boolean True ----- <------- Changing that to False
08:42	Oz Linden	Find or create a VWR issue for that, please, Nimh and I'll look into why it was done that way
	Nimh	you got it
08:43	Oz Linden	To answer your question, Jonathan... no, XMPP was not the merge we were waiting for
		it was the 2.6.0 beta candidate changes, which went in yesterday
08:44	Discrete Dreamscape	heads off for some sleep..
	Jonathan	I saw a ton of SOCIAL changesets go in
	Oz Linden	I believe Robin made a lot of contributions to that...
	draconis.neurocam	was the basic or skylight skin for v2 it seems
	Oz Linden	right
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	some intl changes to, more translations are nice
08:45	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	"skylight"?
	Jessica Lyon	you mean starlight?
	Oz Linden	a descendant of skylight, yes, but in the downloaded viewer rather than via the web
	Jessica Lyon	not heard of skylight o.0
	Oz Linden	it's being called "Basic Mode" now
08:46	Jonathan	Is this the right venue to tell us a little bit about it?
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	oh, the web viewer thingy?
	Oz Linden	there will be a blog post about it when we launch the beta
	Nimh	Will Windlight setting ever go server side?
	Jessica Lyon	yes, estate windlight.. any eta?
	Oz Linden	We have some people finishing up Windlight region settings
08:47	Ju	great news :)
	Toy	[08:38] Toy (toy.wylie): I am here the first time, so I might be behind on issues.
08:38		So ... any plans on bringing back the pie menu?
08:47	Oz Linden	no
	Toy	>.<
	Randomized Jigsaw	lol\
	Toy	Thanks.
	Jessica Lyon	that's something we're going to have to do I think
08:48		but requires writing it from scratch for lgpl
	Oz Linden	I don't know the full history of the pie menu discussions, really
	Ju	as an option, Jessica?
	Toy	Of course optionally.
		Te pie menu is the hting that keeps me on V1.
	Jessica Lyon	of course, an option
08:49	Ju	good
	Jessica Lyon	we have a LOT of people obviously who want pie back, but not all.. we wouldn't force it on anyone.
	Toy	The context menu is slow, unpredictable and inaccurate. So no option for someone who is used to work fast, without looking at the options.
		As Torley advertised years ago ... Muscle Memory.
08:50	Ju	mm :)
	draconis.neurocam	the context menu is far easier from a code standpoint i would think, standard ui functionality
08:51	Toy	The user doesn't care about code.
		And pie menus are standard in 3D applications like Maya.
	Oz Linden	the real trick will be that some of the existing menus have too many choices to be done as pies
	Jessica Lyon	I've gotten used to the context menu, as have many. some however refuse to get used to it.
	Toy	REarrange them for the pie menu so they make sense.
	Jessica Lyon	Oz, yes.. that's going to be a challenge
	Tonya Souther	"Refuse" is too harsh a word. Many simply find pi menus far easier.
	বরুনদাশ গুপ্তে	The rectangular context menus are easier to extend. One-level pie menus are cool, but mutli-level ones are a PITA.
	Toy	It's nmot refusal, its a question of efficiency.
08:52	Jonathan	a number of menus are dynamic, too, based on context
	Arrehn	I *can* use the context menu, but I believe that the pie menus are better UI overall... sa shame it was just removed. I just assumed it was because someone was lazy.
	Toy	If itr was about "easy" SL was text base :P
		based*
		Pie menu worked great in V1, so why is this suddenly a problem in V2?
	Jessica Lyon	well Pie menus are a pita code wise.
		not nearly as scalable
	Toy	I agree.
	Oz Linden	I believe it was a much more complex issue than just laziness, but I wasn't here for it
08:53	Jonathan	I have not missed the pie menus as much as I thought I would
	Ju	it's really a personal thiing, some people like me do prefer context menus - not all brains work in the same way
	Toy	I did, sadly.
	Jessica Lyon	what Ju said. Thus why it has to be optional
	Toy	Therefore it must be an option.
		Heh
08:54	Jessica Lyon	Default I think would still be context menu's, especially for V2 users migrating to Firestorm
	Jonathan	but, it also has taken me a long time to learn where to find things
	Oz Linden	Just so everyone is clear... Q and I were in full agreement on options... they are at best a neccisary evil
	Jessica Lyon	I think options are very important.. as long as defaults are chosen responsibly
08:55	Ima Mechanique	hey, welcome cummere, SL finally let you in ;-)
	Toy	nods at Jessica
		Optiopns can be hidden to protect the user if needed.
	Cummere Mayo	two hours after failing to get the 2.6.1 build to work
	Jessica Lyon	Phoenix has a LOT of options.. we also take time to hold classese on those options to help educate users.
		Something that is somewhat lacking on the LL side i'm afraid.
08:56	Nimh	So Oz when are we going to hear from Rod Humble about the the state of SL--ever?
	Oz Linden	I tried to run Phoenix and Imprudence yesterday - both messed up the video card on my test system
	Nimh	sorta like the state of the union
	Jessica Lyon	o.0
		how so?
	Oz Linden	Have not put in a support request yet :-)
	Arrehn	I think the reason pie menu keeps coming up 1yr later is due to there never being any real discussion on it when it was removed. The silence was deafening.
	Cummere Mayo	o.O
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	lol
	Jessica Lyon	lol Oz, you could and should!
	Oz Linden	color mapping went all to *!*
	Toy	This, Arrehn.
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thats... odd really
	Nimh	never i guess--the board of directors won't let him or what
	Cummere Mayo	thats wierd
08:57		you sure you dont have a defective card on your test machine?
	Tonya Souther	BTW, anyone who's using my Snowstorm media filter patch, I just pushed an update to it that makes it a bit more useful.
	draconis.neurocam	was it an ati card?
	Oz Linden	have not launched Firestorm on that system yet
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	what about V2?
	Arrehn	You might want to wait for Firestorm Preview 2 then.. less bugs ;)
08:58	Toy	preview #2 ❤
	Oz Linden	I didn't have time for debugging, so I didn't look, but I don't think so - if I recall, it's a fairly high end NVIDIA card.
		v2 works
	Jessica Lyon	firestorm preview 2 is just around the corner btw.
		I'll send you a copy once it's out Oz
	Oz Linden	I'll be watching
	Cummere Mayo	oooh do you have the latest set of drivers? if so roll back
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	which do you recomend, mayo?
08:59	Oz Linden	I'm actually not going to make much effort to fix it... if it works, great... if it doesn't, I'll move on
		it's a win7 system and I've just told it to apply whatever updates it wants to
09:00		I'll write up a problem description tomorrow if I can and send it to both viewer teams... see who figures it out :-)
		anyway... our time is up... thank you all for coming.
	draconis.neurocam	thanks oz
	Oz Linden	Put agenda items on for next time.
	Jessica Lyon	Thanks oz
09:01	Ju	thanks Oz!
	Cummere Mayo	ty oz