Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-03-30

08:08	Oz Linden	rummages for agenda....
08:11		https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group
		has it together now
		VWR-25368
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25368 VWR-25368 Linux viewer sucks up file descriptors, stops loading content and crashes
08:12	Haravikk	Doh, I completely forgot to add my issues, I'll add them now in case we have time
	Oz Linden	is that reproducible on one of our builds?
08:13	Discrete Dreamscape	Unless there's a reason Linux needs fallback font support anymore, I think it's pretty much done. It's reproducible on the current release and pretty much everything around it.
08:14	Oz Linden	I'll pull it to STORM for review - please put the patch in an hg repo and post to codereview
	Discrete Dreamscape	k!
08:15	Oz Linden	storm-809
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-809 STORM-809 Official Linux builds no longer built with c-ares support - causes big performance pauses
08:16	Oz Linden	that is fixed on the autobuild branch, which should merge to viewer-development any day now
		yes, I know I've been saying that for a while
	Discrete Dreamscape	<:
	Oz Linden	vwr-23318
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23318 VWR-23318 Persistent Viewer 2 Framerate "Stutter"
08:17	Oz Linden	I believe that's probably the same issue
	Discrete Dreamscape	If it weren't reported from Windows, I would think it is.
		Windows already has a threaded resolver built in and doesn't need c-ares
	Oz Linden	any time we look up a DNS name (which happens a lot), we're blocked
	draconis.neurocam	it seems like a meta issue, the jira isnt very descriptive
08:18		looking at the actual log in the jira
		it would seem 2010-10-06T20:34:59Z WARNING: LLViewerObject::setRegion: viewer object set region to NULL
		is the persons problem
	Oz Linden	I'll leave it open for now and we'll look at it again after the vs2010/autobuild branch is merged
	Discrete Dreamscape	The console txt doesn't show what the standard problem seems to have
08:19	Oz Linden	the next couple ... gpu table and Windlight ... legit issues, but I don't have anything new to report on them
08:20		VWR-25260
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25260 VWR-25260 Ability to synch landmarks between alts on the same computer
	Oz Linden	We talked about this some last week, and I did a little digging around on it
08:21		it's not clear that there's any really good reason for such a small limit on how many items can be selected
	welcome trigger	NielArcher Resident arriving
08:22	Oz Linden	I don't see this getting a very high priority internally very soon, but if someone wanted to do some experimenting with removing or raising that limit, I'd be glad to support that
	Tonya Souther	I don't see the discussion about limits in that JIRA, Oz...
	Jonathan	What limit?
	Oz Linden	Syncing itself is way to complicated to get into (a deep rathole full of dark scary corner cases)
08:23		see the archive of this meeting from last week
	Tonya Souther	okkay.
08:25	Oz Linden	Next topic... the media filtering issues....
		I've been working with Tonya on refining that contribution....
08:26	Tonya Souther	I do have a question there, and a request for help.
	Oz Linden	I have not yet gotten wider internal review of whether or not we'll take it (waiting for a version I think will be more palatable); we're making progress
		shoot, Tonya
	Discrete Dreamscape	Heading out for a while.. If I don't make it back, see ya!
08:27	Tonya Souther	1) What's avatar media, and how do I make some? and 2) if anyone has any suggestions for where I can hook the filter for MoaP and avatar media, I'd be grateful.
	draconis.neurocam	avatar media would be media on a prim attached to an avatar im guessing
	Oz Linden	avatars certainly sometimes make noise
08:28	Tonya Souther	Because the job isn't done till those are handled.
	Oz Linden	I think draconis is right
		if so, I suspect that if you handle the MoaP case the other comes for free
	Tonya Souther	Avatar sounds are not a security risk, since they're played with in-wrld sound assets.
		I think so too.
	Qie	The MoaP stuff is a big deal, indeed, because even with avatar-attached media disabled, the damned stuff leaks in from all over, way outside parcel boundaries.
08:29	Tonya Souther	I don't want to bog down this meeting with that discussion, but would be happy to talk to folks outside this meeting.
	Jonathan	Bring it up on some IRC channel?
	Cummere Mayo	moap aslo seems to ignore media preferences in the viewer
08:31	Tonya Souther	facepaws and makes a mental not of a place to go looking.
	Oz Linden	The next one STORM-26 and STORM-1102 ....
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-26 STORM-26 As a Power User, I want to be able to use Keyboard Shortcuts to control the Viewer 2 UI. Some of the keyboard shortcuts have changed since Viewer 1.23. I want those updated and also want new keyboard shortcuts to allow me to control the new Viewer 2 UI.
		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1102 STORM-1102 Ctrl-Alt-F1 Hide/Show UI Incompatible with Linux
	Oz Linden	We've had to put fixing keyboard shortcuts in general onto the back burner for now
08:32	Tonya Souther	There's also a related bit in that a lot of things you can do in mouselook in V1 you can't in V2, like hav e he chat history window open...
	Oz Linden	given the reduced resources of the Snowstorm Team at the moment, we can't take that on
08:33	Tonya Souther	I might go fix that in Firestorm and then backport to Snowstorm.
	Cummere Mayo	>.>
	Oz Linden	I think that's intentional, Tonya, and doubt that it will be changed
	Tonya Souther	There are times when losing that ability is a serious problem.
		But while I'm there, I'll look at the shortcut issue, too.
08:34	Oz Linden	I'm happy to hear discussion on it and pass it on
	Cummere Mayo	oz chat history in mouselook is very important to many combat roleplayers
		and for some sports teams in SL
		so if tonya can fix it backporting it would be wonderful
08:35	draconis.neurocam	it being put on the backburner, hopefully not meaning it will be shelved forever?
	Tonya Souther	Basically, mouselook is used in BDSM to heighten the sense of restriction, but not being able to IM or bgo back in chat makes it necessary to exit mouselook to do what's needed.
	Oz Linden	I make no predictions about forever
		Personally (and I emphasize personally) I operate mostly on three priorities:
	Tonya Souther	Draconis, I think Oz is referring to backburnering the shortcuts thing....that should be a straightforward fix for the non-mouselook case.
08:36	draconis.neurocam	yes i know
		thats what i meant
	Oz Linden	1) what I'm doing now, 2) what I'll do next, 3) stuff I may not get to at all
		:-)
	Tonya Souther	grins.
	draconis.neurocam	very tao of you
08:37	Oz Linden	How useful is chat history if you have no way to scroll the window?
	draconis.neurocam	it auto scrolls, no?
	Tonya Souther	You can scroll the window, by alt-clicking inside it and then scrolling as normal.
	Oz Linden	yes, but chat shows for a while in mouselook
	Tonya Souther	Not long enough, and there's no way to go to IMs.
	Cummere Mayo	just fyi durring a discussion at scrum it was made clear the issue here isnt that they dont want them fixed, the issue is pretty much that LL doesnt have the resources now
08:38		oz in mouselook it shows only a few seconds then fades
		my last sentance wouldnt even be readable
	Oz Linden	It's much more than a few seconds on my viewer now
	Jonathan	Persist and fade time are adjustable
	Oz Linden	I'm doing this discussion in mouselook and it's doable
08:39	Cummere Mayo	im getting about 20 seconds a sentance unless "bumped"
	Tonya Souther	smiles..."Maybe I can educate you on that a bit."
	Ima Mechanique	not so doable when you're trying to avoid having your butt blown off in combat. Saving butt takes precedence over reading
	Oz Linden	well, I would think so
	Cummere Mayo	accessability thing too
08:40	Tonya Souther	what, you're not making effective use of cover? :3
	Oz Linden	but wouldn't voice be better for that anyway?
	Cummere Mayo	no oz
		voice tends to fail on busy rp channels
	Ima Mechanique	butts too big, cover too small ;-)
	Cummere Mayo	and many many many rpers find rp breaks the fantasy
	Tonya Souther	not to mention being not an option for many folks.
	Cummere Mayo	plus yeah what tonya said
08:41	Oz Linden	well, if someone wants to work on a change to let the chat history floater show in mouselook, I'll take it to the UX review
	Tonya Souther	I'll do that in my copious free time...after I put the media filter to bed.
	Cummere Mayo	keep in mind you have a sizeable percentage of deaf, mute, and people who can read write english (or whatever) but not speak it
	Oz Linden	yes, I understand the accessibility issue
	Cummere Mayo	loves tonya
08:42		thinks LL should hire tonya before EA or someone does >.>
	Oz Linden	I'm sure that the thinking was just that any floater is part of the UI and the point of mouselook is to get rid of UI
	Tonya Souther	nods.
	Cummere Mayo	probably
	Tonya Souther	But making it user-selectable is even better.
	Oz Linden	Willing to move, Tonya?
08:43	Tonya Souther	Not to the People's Republic of Taxachusetts, hell no.
	Oz Linden	Virginia or California?
	Loy Moon	I thought the point of mouselook, was to be in mouselook? Why does it -have- to hide the floaters?
	Cummere Mayo	seattle is gone now?
	draconis.neurocam	waits for the 2010 changes so i can actually tinker and have everything working in a viewer i compiled
	Oz Linden	no, Seattle is there too
08:44	Tonya Souther	Virginia might be doable.
	Oz Linden	talk to me later
	Tonya Souther	all right.
	Oz Linden	LL is hiring ... see the web site
	Tonya Souther	Loy, I can see the point of that: mouselook is about looking out through your avatar's eyes.
		Your avatar doesn't have the UI in their field of vision.
08:45	Loy Moon	You used to be able to have everything open in mouselook before
		And, you can hold "alt" to use them as if they were normal
	draconis.neurocam	position listings for reference
	Jonathan	Isn't there another hide the ui option used by machinima?
	draconis.neurocam	http://lindenlab.hrmdirect.com/employment/openings.php?sort=da&
	Loy Moon	So, you could do everything, IM people, give people items, ect... all while in mouselook
	Tonya Souther	I agree, Loy, and think that's the right answer, but I can see how they got where they did.
	Loy Moon	Yes, there's a "hide UI" shortcut
08:47	Oz Linden	next... VWR-24787
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24787 VWR-24787 Nearby Chat window doesn't remember settings correctly
	Haravikk	Ah, dead minor bug but occasionally annoying, nearby chat just seems to forget its location when SL is updated
08:48		I like to have my nearby chat match the width of my chat-bar, but after an update it goes back to a poky little window in the centre
	Jonathan	I have the same trouble with the minimap moving back to the top left corner and not where I left it
	Oz Linden	The Snowstorm Team has an item on the sprint we just started to do design work on how positions and sizes of all UI elements should be saved
08:49		assuming we decide to move on to implementation of something based on that, this should fall out
	Jonathan	Haravikk, I amost got the changes for what you want done, but ran into a snag
	Tonya Souther	Is taht STORM-2, Oz?
	Haravikk	Ah okay then!
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2 STORM-2 As a User, I want to set my own default views with specific UI layout so I can tailor my Viewer experience to the activities I'm most interested in.
08:50	Oz Linden	yup - that's the one
		All we're doing now is trying to set a functional goal
08:51		just getting agreement on that will be an achievement of note :-)
	Tonya Souther	Amen to that.
	Haravikk	Okay, well in that case I'll close issue whenever it does get fixed, but keep it open in the mean-time?
	Oz Linden	sure. in fact, I'll mark it as accepted - I see that too
08:52		vwr-7830
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7830 VWR-7830 Automatically switch active group on group land
	Oz Linden	This is interesting.... I'd like to hear discussion....
	Loy Moon	I made that feature in my client early last year
08:53		It can be annoying, because when you do change your group
	Haravikk	I think a few third party viewers have implemented this in a very basic form (upon entering a parcel, if you have the right group, then it switches) but to do right it'll probably need a little more intelligent behaviour than that
	Loy Moon	It has to 'reload' lots of prim details on the sim
	Ima Mechanique	I think a warning you're not in group would be better
	Loy Moon	So, two parcels next to each other, when you cross into them, and if you change groups a lot, it sorta stops giving you prim updates, until the que is over
	Ima Mechanique	then you can change if you want
	Ju	a warning sounds good
08:54	Haravikk	I think that could be just as annoying, better if it would try to switch automatically when you do something that requires a different group like rezzing without permission, or rezzing on auto-return land. If the user hasn't yet set a behaviour for auto-switching then they'd get a pop-up asking how they'd like it to behave (always do it, do it when needed, or never do it)
	Oz Linden	What about having the viewer ask you if you want to switch (after some hysterisis delay) ?
08:55	Tonya Souther	And you don't need to switch groups for the rez case, just have he object rezzed int he proper group.
	Ima Mechanique	asking is good, provided it's not too often ;-)
	Ju	right, Tonya
	Loy Moon	An icon on the land information would be pretty neat, where you click if you're in the group, but it's not active
08:56	Haravikk	Sorry, forgot that, I think I listed the issues a bit more in-depth in the JIRA issue itself. But for things like land entry, you need to switch, and rezzing should set the object correctly
		If possible
	Oz Linden	is looking for a related issue....
		STORM-313
	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-313 STORM-313 Build parcel property is displayed incorrectly
08:57	Oz Linden	The current parcel properties icons display what the rules are for Everyone
08:58		depending on your group and your relationship to where you are, they may not be correct for you
	draconis.neurocam	which is kinda silly in a logical sense
	Ju	i agree
	Oz Linden	well, it depends on who you think they are for....
		that's the way it was in the 1.x viewer
08:59		since I created that issue, obviously I don't like it
	Tonya Souther	grins.
	draconis.neurocam	right, but i thought the point of 2.x was to make the user less confused, i could be wrong
	Oz Linden	but your active group does have an effect
09:00		so maybe those indicators should show you what applies to you now, and perhaps a control to indicate that a group change might alter them?
	draconis.neurocam	nods
	Ima Mechanique	sounds good
09:01	Oz Linden	Do I have a volunteer to dummy up what such a UI might look and act like?
		a sketch ?
	Cummere Mayo	so is there a reason you can't have a preference to show what they are for you AND what they show for everyone?
	Oz Linden	is artistically challenged
	Haravikk	Well, having a good auto-switch behaviour could avoid a lot of it too, as most users (myself included) will tend to think that simply being in a group is enough. I tend to do the same thing even though I know better a lot of the time
	Oz Linden	options are evil unless there's a real need
	Loy Moon	Just change the crossed circle to a ? if you can build in the group with the correct group, but can't on any other?
09:02	Cummere Mayo	i think this one is a real need
	Cabster	I could make a sketch, if given a description.
	Oz Linden	auto-switch is almost certainly much trickier than it sounds
	Loy Moon	It's not
		You get an event in the client, basicly
	Cummere Mayo	but you want a sktech of which an auto switch ui?
	Loy Moon	And it's a single packet to change groups, even a function to see if you're in the land or not
	Tonya Souther	On top of that, sometimes being in a group is enough, sometimes you have to have it active.
09:03	Loy Moon	But, changing groups causes updates on all the prims you can see, so it's bad on bandwidth
	Oz Linden	but what group you are in affects many things
	Loy Moon	And, causes new updates to be forced to the end of the queue
09:04		A 'better' thing that I did years ago, was just setting the group on the rez/create object packet, to use the land group (if you're in it)
	Jonathan	Would it be simpler to just pop up a message "The parcel you have just entered is part of group XXX. You are a member of this group but do not have it active."
	Loy Moon	And, a few months ago, I made it switch to the group you're in when you rez/wear something, when you're in the land group
	Oz Linden	If the problem we're solving for is restrictions like entering a parcel or rezzing, then you'll get a hint from your failure... I think it might be enough to provide an easy way to chagne to something that would solve your problem
	draconis.neurocam	isnt there already an issue somewhere of too many popups though jonathan
09:05	Oz Linden	popups are not great if we can avoid them reasonably
	Jonathan	That issue was having to click on OK after clicking to not accept inventory, etc (which has or is being fixed)
	Cummere Mayo	great thing about popups is ... you can turn em off
09:06	Ju	what about Loy's switch group on rez ?
	Oz Linden	I think this is a great topic, and I'd love to see some UI proposals fully worked out
	Cummere Mayo	yeah personally id just rather a small "you accepted/declined whatever to the chat log no okay dialogue ><
		I could do sketches if someone bugs me next week but i cant attach to the jira
09:07	Oz Linden	I've got to wrap up, folks....
		Thank everyone for coming...
	draconis.neurocam	take care oz
	Qie	Thanks Oz.
	Cummere Mayo	ty oz
	Ju	bye Oz
	Haravikk	The thing I don't like about the pop-ups is you're still making the user do the work for something that they expect to just work to begin with, even if the pop-up has all the options at hand it's still a bit of an annoyance
09:08	Oz Linden	will post a transcript later this afternoon
	Haravikk	Oh, sorry, see you Oz!
		Could we revisit this one at the start of next week?
	Cabster	Byes
	Tonya Souther	See ya, Oz.
	Jonathan	someone post this idea to the osdev mailing list to see what other people might say